From:	dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject:	Reflections on time....
Date:	Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:54:21 -0600

Rand Ratinac wrote:
> > So.. you want a detailed description of a fight that
>conveys the sense of the speed of wired characters,
>without a gimick?
> >
> > Sorry, but you have to have "gimicks". We live in a
>world of time and space, and detailed descriptions
>must be based on that. Even abstract writing is based
>on real world time and space.
>
>Okay, with adequate snippage.
>
>No, you don't. First person writing can convey the
>sense of speed by filtering what you see through the
>narrator's perspective, as I mentioned in another
>post. It's easiest to do when the narrator isn't wired
>up, but it doesn't REQUIRE a gimmick.
>
>And by gimmicks I mean things like Patrick's clock

Oh, like counting the number of rounds fired between hearbeats, kicking a
guy several times before a dropped bear mug hits the floor. Got it.

Now, how do you do it without a gimick?

>As for your example, Graht...well, a) it wasn't really
>all that good (no offense - I don't write well if I
>just dash something off in a minute or two and think
>most people fall into the same boat :) )

It wasn't meant to be good.

> and b) it
>didn't give us a sense of the speed AT ALL.

I didn't give *you* a sense of the speed at all. You're making a sweeping
arguement and applying your opinion to "us". Sorry, but you are not us.

>What you
>did there was abstract it completely.

Yes.

> All we had was a
>guy falling down, then this other guy saying what he
>did (hell, for all we know he could be exaggerating to
>make himself sound tougher and faster).

Not so. It was collaborated by the patron who examined the guy that was
beat up.

>There's a huge
>difference in the imagery involved and how much the
>reader is drawn in between that and actually
>experiencing (through "being there" while reading) the
>speed.

Now that sentence doesn't make any sense to me at all.

> > And why can't an abstract representation convey the
>true whirlwind of an SR fight?
>
>Look at it this way. I always recall Nigel Findley's
>description of the wired elf in Shadowplay (whose name
>I can't remember) - he described him popping up at a
>window, shooting at the bad guys "like a chipped
>jackrabbit". Interesting simile (which is why I
>remember it), but it isn't the same as if he'd gone
>into detail describing the elf hopping up and down,
>popping caps, blasting the bad guys away etc. It's in
>the level of detail - the more detail, the better you
>can picture the scene and the more of a feel you get
>for it. On the whole.

Just because Nigel Findley chose a poor way of abstracting SR wired speed,
doesn't mean it can't be done.

>I'm not saying "abstract bad, detailed good" - I AM
>saying I've never seen "detailed" done successfully in
>a shadowrun story.

Can't argue that.

> > You've contradicted yourself and failed to be
>specific. I don't understand the point that your are
>trying to make.
> > -Graht
>
>On the contrary, I haven't contradicted myself

Yes you did, and I pointed it out. You said it was impossible to do it,
then you said it could be done. You contradicted yourself. And instead of
making concrete arguements/points, you're posts have wandered far afield.

>And I don't
>understand how you could miss my points now.

That's being rather presumptuous. What if I'm not as smart as you think I am?

>Well, not quite. Forgetting the issue of how hard it
>is to write "fast", my original contention was that
>I've never read a Shadowrun book that, when going into
>detail as opposed to abstracting the action, gave me a
>true sense of that action happening at superhuman
>speed. None of the stories have successfully forced my
>perspective there (by this I mean that if I was
>reading cyberpunk for the first time, knowing nothing
>about it, none of the detailed scenes would cause me
>to go "wow, that's fast"). In fact, few have even
>tried to do so. Obviously, I can't prove this with
>examples. :) If you have some examples of your own
>that disprove what I'm saying, though, send 'em over.

As I've only read one Shadowrun novel, I'll take your word for it.

In earlier posts it sounded as if you were making sweeping statements
saying that writing a detailed scene of a "wired" character for the
"average" reader was not possible.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Anything I have ever done that ultimately was worthwhile....
initially scared me to death."
-Betty Bender