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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: ARGH!
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 01:20:33 -0600
Things bite when you accidently delete all of the NERPS submissions and
realize you forgot to back them up and now have to go through and
assemble them all from the old logs.

*grumble*

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> In the United States, they
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> first came for us in Colorado...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 2
From: "Bryan D. Jones" <bdj@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 03:06:58 -0600
"In an earlier message Robert A. Hayden quoted to Bryan..."

>Things bite when you accidently delete all of the NERPS submissions and
>realize you forgot to back them up and now have to go through and
>assemble them all from the old logs.

>*grumble*

We got an old saying around these here parts that I think applies.
Suxs to be you. :)

Don't suppose you can make a hacking target of 100+ and miraculously recover
the from the file system?


--
Bryan D. Jones Computing Services
Internet: bdj@****.uark.edu University of Arkansas
Internet: bdj@****.uark.edu Bitnet bdj@*******
GAT d--(?) -p+ c++(++++) l+(-) u++ e*/+ m---(*) s/- n---(+) h* f+
g- w++ t++ r++ y+
Message no. 3
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 19:08:46 -0700
>
>Things bite when you accidently delete all of the NERPS submissions and
>realize you forgot to back them up and now have to go through and
>assemble them all from the old logs.
>

Which ones? I have all the Plot/Sprwal/Charater ones - I believe
And their somewhat edited too.


BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
GE - d+(-) -p+@ c++(++++) !L u(--) e+(*) m+ s+/ !n+(-) h* f+ g+ w+++ t+ r+ y+
"infinity = zero" - Daniel Waisley "Nightfox"
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Message no. 4
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: ARGH!
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 00:58:16 -0500
Has ANYONE gotten ShadowLore to work?

All I know is that I output it to a postscript, I can print it ont he
postscript printer, and I can bring it up in GhostView (the type is too
small to read though).

I hoped it would be universal.

*sigh*


____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 21:03:52 +0930
>
>Has ANYONE gotten ShadowLore to work?
>
>All I know is that I output it to a postscript, I can print it ont he
>postscript printer, and I can bring it up in GhostView (the type is too
>small to read though).
>
I can give a hearty YES to this!! (I only have seen part of it though... I
just aborted my modem download to check it)

Some comments to the people having trouble viewing/printing this:
Make sure you've done a binary download of this. It is a binary file, not
an ASCII one. Alternatively, if teetot is set up for it, (I haven't tried),
asking for the file, without the .zip extension, may send you an
uncompressed copy.
If you get a couple of pages printed, but not all of it, you may be
overflowing your printer queue. How you get round this is problematic but
here's a couple of ways:
Print a page at a time, using something to select the pages. (Ghostview
has this ability, so ghostscript has as well)
(Unix system only): If you can get access to the machine the printer is
mounted on, you can send a link to the file down the queue, using the
command lpr -P<printer name> -s <file name>. This is how I plan to print it
as soon as the student laser comes online again. (It's down due to network
reasons. :( )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 6
From: DJ Wipeout <wipeout@***.COM>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 08:21:35 -0400
To: NERPS@*****.NIC.SURFNET.NL
Subject: Re: ARGH!
In-Reply-To: <199404200458.AAA01203@***.com>
References: <199404200458.AAA01203@***.com>
Reply-To: wipeout@***.com (DJ Wipeout)

I got it to work fine with no problems at all.....

wipeout@***.com: Co-Maintainer, The DataHaven Project.
Message no. 7
From: Jonathan Smith <jsmith@**********.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 13:21:45 -0400
ERROR: This message seems to be empty. It is located at LOG9404C.NER::118597,260.
Message no. 8
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: ARGH!
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 15:48:40 -0600
WTF is the deal? I know there are people on this list but dispite
posting some 20k of stuff, not ONE comment. So ethier it's perfect (I
know its not) or nobody cares.

What's the deal folx?

*sorry, rather grumpy*

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 9
From: "S. Keith Graham" <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 18:00:10 -0500
Well, I was going to go over the posts in more detail, but
my off-the-cuff response:

SpiritWrack is full of it...

A Spirit requires a magical source of energy to convince
him to hang around, as well as (I assume) a mental connection
*that goes through the astral* to give him directions.

The only way a Psionic could take control of a spirit is to
dominate/possess a Magician (through some means we haven't
determined) and use *their* link to the summoned creature
to make them do things.

Spirits and Watchers don't even have a mind of the sort
that the PSI can deal with. IMHO, playing with a Bear's
Mind, or a magically enhanced beast, should be difficult
and require training. Spirits are just off the charts
for a PSI.

(Similiarly for astral travel.. The only way a PSI can get
there from here is to posses a mage, and use their persona
to astral travel... "Hitching a ride". Opens up some
possibilites for a PSI to have a comatose mage lying around,
using their magus factor to summon creatures and travel
astrally. <shiver> Might make a good story about the dark
side of the PSIs... )

The Magus Factor, and everything to do with it, has NOTHING
to do with PSI. Its like saying that a highly trained decker
eventually/automatically gets rigging abilities. Bleah.

The psychic beast is also full of it, unless the Psionic has
the ability to a) multitask, b) far see, and c) tk, etc. (as
needed to reproduce the beast's effects.)

I mean, come on... The "remote Psycic beast" isn't even similiar
to anything *I* have seen in the fiction (although there may be
precedent for it.) It also gives non-TKs similiar abilities to
heavy TK specialists. Sorry, but I don't think it flies, unless
I missed something in the descriptioin.

I just don't see the point, when a powerful PSI should do everything
listed, but as a concious action... If they want to multitask,
do so at the listed penalties. (And if the PSI can't do all of
the above, why can their subconcious?)

I do think I like the idea of a "Guard" psion, but the ESPer has
to react to it, and generate an attack remotely themselves.

Last, I'm really not sure about the times for initiation. Karma
represents, to my mind, "experience" and "training", and actually
going up the "level" is mostly symbolic. I guess its to encourage
people to buy up PSI Theory, but even then, it could be *months*
of training for moderate levels of initiation.

Keith Graham
vapspcx@***.gatech.edu
Message no. 10
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@***.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 17:05:29 -0600
> What's the deal folx?

Easy. I've got WAY too much to do. I've got 'em saved, I'll probably
comment on them in a few days. Sorry.

--
Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@***.uiuc.edu)
Message no. 11
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:48:21 -0600
On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, S. Keith Graham wrote:

> SpiritWrack is full of it...

As written, it sure is :-)

This meta-ability relates back to the summer deluge. We had decided that
while an Esper shouldn't be able to summon spirits or elementals, they
SHOULD be able to take control of one. Unfortunately, I made this first
draft FAR too easy.

1) The pre-requsites are too light. The mastery level is fine, but the
there needs to be other requirements, such as:
Telepathy 5
Astral-Perception (an as-of-yet-unwritten meta-ability)

2) When taking control of something, you should have to make an opposed
test against both the controlling mage AND the being, with it going free
if the second fails. In addition, it an action at the same time, so your
Psi pool doesn't refresh.

> A Spirit requires a magical source of energy to convince
> him to hang around, as well as (I assume) a mental connection
> *that goes through the astral* to give him directions.

See above. Properly trained psis get some ability to interact with
astral.

> The only way a Psionic could take control of a spirit is to
> dominate/possess a Magician (through some means we haven't
> determined) and use *their* link to the summoned creature
> to make them do things.

That is one way, but ius a standard Telepathic-type ability.

> Spirits and Watchers don't even have a mind of the sort
> that the PSI can deal with. IMHO, playing with a Bear's
> Mind, or a magically enhanced beast, should be difficult
> and require training. Spirits are just off the charts
> for a PSI.

The training is there.

> (Similiarly for astral travel.. The only way a PSI can get
> there from here is to posses a mage, and use their persona
> to astral travel... "Hitching a ride". Opens up some
> possibilites for a PSI to have a comatose mage lying around,
> using their magus factor to summon creatures and travel
> astrally. <shiver> Might make a good story about the dark
> side of the PSIs... )

That is not true, and I don't want to have this fight again. We decided
way back when that certain meta-abilities would give psis access to
various aspects of astral space.

> The Magus Factor, and everything to do with it, has NOTHING
> to do with PSI. Its like saying that a highly trained decker
> eventually/automatically gets rigging abilities. Bleah.

But they can drive a car with their datajack.

----------------------

> The psychic beast is also full of it, unless the Psionic has
> the ability to a) multitask, b) far see, and c) tk, etc. (as
> needed to reproduce the beast's effects.)

Yes, as written their are problems. i knew this when I sent it in. I
had hoped to get SOME semblence of discussion.

The pre-requesites for creating psionic entities are too low again. It
needs to be something like:
Telekinesis: 4
Telepathy: 4
Divided Attention (the meta-ability)


> I mean, come on... The "remote Psycic beast" isn't even similiar
> to anything *I* have seen in the fiction (although there may be
> precedent for it.) It also gives non-TKs similiar abilities to
> heavy TK specialists. Sorry, but I don't think it flies, unless
> I missed something in the descriptioin.

There is fictional precedent. Also keep in mind they all die as soon as
you go to bed.

> I just don't see the point, when a powerful PSI should do everything
> listed, but as a concious action... If they want to multitask,
> do so at the listed penalties. (And if the PSI can't do all of
> the above, why can their subconcious?)

Divided attention gives them the multi-tasking.

--------------------

> Last, I'm really not sure about the times for initiation. Karma
> represents, to my mind, "experience" and "training", and actually
> going up the "level" is mostly symbolic. I guess its to encourage
> people to buy up PSI Theory, but even then, it could be *months*
> of training for moderate levels of initiation.

The time represents:
"ok grasshopper, it is time for you to become one with yourself."

Grasshopper heads off to meditate and study, coming back a better psi.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 12
From: Chris McKinnon <cmckinno@********.CA>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 23:35:56 -0400
On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> What's the deal folx?
>
> *sorry, rather grumpy*

Sorry, Rob, but I just got the last 4 days worth of posts from both the
NERPS and SHADOWRN lists (our mail system was all messed up). Hello 900+
posts to wade through.

Whoa...


==============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the one with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmckinno@********.ca =
Message no. 13
From: "S. Keith Graham" <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:30:42 -0500
>See above. Properly trained psis get some ability to interact with
>astral.


I'll leave this as "not in my game", and I'll not comment further.
I think Astral is Magic, and Psi is not, and never the twain shall
meet... Amen. :-) And since its a religious question, no more
arguements from me.

>That is not true, and I don't want to have this fight again. We decided
>way back when that certain meta-abilities would give psis access to
>various aspects of astral space.

(Just to bitch about design by committee, YOU decided, some folks agreed,
at least one person (me!) disagreed, and there wasn't even a formal vote
taken.. :) This is really a bad way to run things, and we don't
even have a "design document" to benchmark "implementation" against...

>> The psychic beast is also full of it, unless the Psionic has
>> the ability to a) multitask, b) far see, and c) tk, etc. (as
>> needed to reproduce the beast's effects.)

>Yes, as written their are problems. i knew this when I sent it in. I
>had hoped to get SOME semblence of discussion.

>The pre-requesites for creating psionic entities are too low again. It
>needs to be something like:
> Telekinesis: 4
> Telepathy: 4
> Divided Attention (the meta-ability)

OK.. Telepathy doesn't account for the "guard" feature, which is
detect minds, and/or far-seeing. (Which is different in my book
than telepathy, which is mind-to-mind.. Did we make a distinction?)

Last, how does someone go about killing such a beast, as trivia?
Or stopping one that's been sent?

If it truely is a PSI projecting TK through far-seeing, its
invulnerable to ALL weapons (by definition), and magic (since
there is simply nothing to attack), etc. Its instant death
on wheels...

>> Last, I'm really not sure about the times for initiation. Karma
>> represents, to my mind, "experience" and "training", and
actually
>> going up the "level" is mostly symbolic. I guess its to encourage
>> people to buy up PSI Theory, but even then, it could be *months*
>> of training for moderate levels of initiation.

>The time represents:
> "ok grasshopper, it is time for you to become one with yourself."

>Grasshopper heads off to meditate and study, coming back a better psi.

4 months (for spirit wrack) reduced to 5 weeks with a high theory skill
is still a long time to spend 12 karma. I usually treat gaining karma
as "becoming one with yourself, learning your limitations, etc." That's
why it doesn't take a long time to raise firearms from 6 to 7...

If nothing else, 5 weeks here, a month and a half over there, and your
team will abandon you. That's oodles of downtime, during which you
are moderately vulnerable.

Also, what about interrupted training, voluntary or otherwise? Counts
as half of what's completed when you restart?

Keith Graham
vapspcx@***.gatech.edu
Message no. 14
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARGH!
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:41:13 -0600
On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, S. Keith Graham wrote:

> I'll leave this as "not in my game", and I'll not comment further.
> I think Astral is Magic, and Psi is not, and never the twain shall
> meet... Amen. :-) And since its a religious question, no more
> arguements from me.

Fair enough. If in your game, Psis are not allowed any form of access to
astral, then this is not an ability for them.

> (Just to bitch about design by committee, YOU decided, some folks agreed,
> at least one person (me!) disagreed, and there wasn't even a formal vote
> taken.. :) This is really a bad way to run things, and we don't
> even have a "design document" to benchmark "implementation"
against...

The discussions are available on jdfalk's www/ftp site. Creation by
committee doesn't work well, as a rule, however.

> OK.. Telepathy doesn't account for the "guard" feature, which is
> detect minds, and/or far-seeing. (Which is different in my book
> than telepathy, which is mind-to-mind.. Did we make a distinction?)

Well, true. Perhaps toss a Clairvoyance 2 in there as well. Then it
would be covered.

> Last, how does someone go about killing such a beast, as trivia?
> Or stopping one that's been sent?

Any magical attack will damage it. Bullets and the like do their normal
type of damage against immune critters (it's 1/4 isn't it?).

> If it truely is a PSI projecting TK through far-seeing, its
> invulnerable to ALL weapons (by definition), and magic (since
> there is simply nothing to attack), etc. Its instant death
> on wheels...

This is the ability to create form from thought. It's not TK in and of
itself, its taking a subconscious part of your brain and giving it free
reign. That free-reign in turn creates an object that can interact with
the world.

> >The time represents:
> > "ok grasshopper, it is time for you to become one with
yourself."
>
> >Grasshopper heads off to meditate and study, coming back a better psi.
>
> 4 months (for spirit wrack) reduced to 5 weeks with a high theory skill
> is still a long time to spend 12 karma. I usually treat gaining karma
> as "becoming one with yourself, learning your limitations, etc." That's
> why it doesn't take a long time to raise firearms from 6 to 7...

*shrug* i figured 4 months was a good base amount of time to spend
learning how spirits work, how to steal them, and how to dominate them.

> If nothing else, 5 weeks here, a month and a half over there, and your
> team will abandon you. That's oodles of downtime, during which you
> are moderately vulnerable.

Right. Good reason not to advace, don't you think?

> Also, what about interrupted training, voluntary or otherwise? Counts
> as half of what's completed when you restart?

Hasn't been considered.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 15
From: GKoth2258@***.COM
Subject: Argh!
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:54:08 -0400
Paolo, Gurth,

It would seems that I made a small error in the South America text. I've
been re-reading the Aztlan sourcebook and I came across a small bit of info I
had apparently forgotten. So if you would be so kind as to insert the
following two items, I would appreciate it.

1) Insert the following comment at the end of the Chile section.

(>) Don't forget that the old Peruvian revolutionairies like the Shining Path
are still around causing trouble. You'd think that after 80 something years
of war, with nothing gained, they would try something else. Not these guys
though.
(>) Mac@******.net


2) Please insert the following item at the end of the South America text.

Venezuala

Venezuala is a shadow of what it once was. Limited to the city of Caracas
and the surrounding country side, two of it's three neighbors view it as
nothing more than a buffer zone between their two armies. To the north and
west lies the southern end of Aztlan and to the east is the border of
Amazonia.

(>) A buffer zone? Not fraggin' likely. Caracas is where a lot of drek goes
down between the Big A and Amazonia. It's the most hotly contested neutral
city on this planet, because neither nation seems to be willing to play by
the normal rules.
(>) WildKatt

To the south there is relatively small stretch of border that is shared with
Chile. Virtually all of the trade and commerce that keeps Venezuala alive
comes through this "soft" border, along with a steady trickle of refugees
leaving the embattled city of Caracas.

(>) Trickle is right, because most of those that could have left, all ready
did. Caracas is home to the abject poor, the hopeless and the wicked trying
to capitalize on the suffering of their people. It is a wonder at all the
Aztlan and Amazonia would fight over this destitute piece of earth.
(>) the Last Hombre

(>) It's not that bad Hombre. There are plenty of common folk still here.
And there are a few of us that stay here to help them, and the rest of the
city.
(>) Fria

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about ARGH!, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!