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Message no. 1
From: Mark A Sawko <sawk6112@****.GMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 11:01:28 EST
> So -- who out there can promise that, barring sudden death or
> dismemberment, they absolutely /will/ write a sizable chunk of this book?
>

Well, I'd like to promise, but I'm going back to school in April and probably won't have
much free time. I'd like to try to help with this book though.

-----

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| Mark Sawko | GMI Engineering | Duct Tape: |
| sawk6112@****.gmi.edu | and Management | The solution to everything |
| | Institute | from global warming to |
| | Flint, MI | keeping your socks up. |
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Message no. 2
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:07:06 -0700
This is in response to the hydrogen-dragon thoughts that have been cast
about recently. The amount of H2 required to lift 2000 kilos is enormous.
You don't see the Shuttle floating off its launch pad do you? Trying to
rationalize dragons is artificial to me. They are a manifestation, maybe of
Gaia. As far as bazooka's being a recent development, how long ago
have the chinese had rockets. And they've have a very old mythos
concerning dragons.

Unfortunately, I have never seen a photograph of a dragon, getting ready
to breathe or other, so I can't really say whether they need to "bloat up"
first. If you consider that they can breathe every action they have, they
would need to generate a drek load of hydrogen several times every
FIVE SECONDS to accomplish this. That's unrealistic, the chemical
reaction doesn't go that quick. Along with the fact that a hydrogen fire is
very difficult to see. Which would make the "typical" representations of
a conflagration coming from the creature's mouth overstated in the visual
context, if nothing else. They would also need a hellacious cooling
system in their mouths to keep from frying anything in the local.

In the Shadowrun world/game/reference frame/whatever, magic is NOT
ARTIFICIAL. Just as reptiles hibernate when the heliotropic energy is
insufficient to stir their metabolisms, dragons behavior similarly with the
magic energy level. The magic gene didn't express itself (except in a
very few rare cases) until the magic cycle had developed /grown
/increased to a certain extent. Read Ehran's speech for a refresher.
And as magic is natural, why not use it to cover, at least in part, the
dragon physiology.

As to why they don't all breathe fire, why don't they all look alike. Natural
selection didn't do it, as the dragon is probably the top of this world's
food chain. Human's may outnumber them, but so what. Wildebeast out
number lions. The key lies in their reason for being, what makes who
they are.

As far as FASA being wrong, they simply gave some outline stats. It's
up to US to determine exactness and raison d'etre. They leave plenty of
clues. I think we should try to stick somewhere in the ballpark.

- Rocket Scientist
Message no. 3
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:35:26 -0600
On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Louis Barrera wrote:

> This is in response to the hydrogen-dragon thoughts that have been cast
> about recently. The amount of H2 required to lift 2000 kilos is enormous.
> You don't see the Shuttle floating off its launch pad do you? Trying to
> rationalize dragons is artificial to me. They are a manifestation, maybe of
> Gaia. As far as bazooka's being a recent development, how long ago
> have the chinese had rockets. And they've have a very old mythos
> concerning dragons.

Have you ANY idea how long evolutionary processes take? 2000 years of
rockets isn't going to even make a dent in natural selection. Also, the
shuttle is a hell of a lot heavier than 2000kilos, and the hydrogen is
LIQUIFIED, not a gas, and thus IS NOT lighter than air.

> Unfortunately, I have never seen a photograph of a dragon, getting ready
> to breathe or other, so I can't really say whether they need to "bloat up"
> first. If you consider that they can breathe every action they have, they
> would need to generate a drek load of hydrogen several times every
> FIVE SECONDS to accomplish this. That's unrealistic, the chemical
> reaction doesn't go that quick. Along with the fact that a hydrogen fire is
> very difficult to see. Which would make the "typical" representations of
> a conflagration coming from the creature's mouth overstated in the visual
> context, if nothing else. They would also need a hellacious cooling
> system in their mouths to keep from frying anything in the local.

The dragon doesn;'t digest hydrogen on demand, they instead store it
throughout the body in a series of sacs. This is under pressure. They
can release the gas throughout the body to increase boyancy, and then
expell it through the mouth do decrease boyancy. If they use up all
their gas, they are in trouble.

> In the Shadowrun world/game/reference frame/whatever, magic is NOT
> ARTIFICIAL. Just as reptiles hibernate when the heliotropic energy is
> insufficient to stir their metabolisms, dragons behavior similarly with the
> magic energy level. The magic gene didn't express itself (except in a
> very few rare cases) until the magic cycle had developed /grown
> /increased to a certain extent. Read Ehran's speech for a refresher.
> And as magic is natural, why not use it to cover, at least in part, the
> dragon physiology.

Because it doesn't work

> As to why they don't all breathe fire, why don't they all look alike. Natural
> selection didn't do it, as the dragon is probably the top of this world's
> food chain. Human's may outnumber them, but so what. Wildebeast out
> number lions. The key lies in their reason for being, what makes who
> they are.

Huh?

> As far as FASA being wrong, they simply gave some outline stats. It's
> up to US to determine exactness and raison d'etre. They leave plenty of
> clues. I think we should try to stick somewhere in the ballpark.

I don't think we're anywhere outside of the ballpark. As a matter of
fact, I think we're lined up for a home run.

> - Rocket Scientist

But no geneticist, eh?

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> Cthulu Matata
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> http://att2.cs.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden
Message no. 4
From: Mark A Sawko <sawk6112@****.GMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:20:31 EST
Robert Hayden wrote:
> The dragon doesn;'t digest hydrogen on demand, they instead store it
> throughout the body in a series of sacs. This is under pressure. They
> can release the gas throughout the body to increase boyancy, and then
> expell it through the mouth do decrease boyancy. If they use up all
> their gas, they are in trouble.

No offense, but I disagree with you. I think that in order for a dragon to use hydrogen
to allow it to fly it would have to be bloated like a blimp. I don't know how much a
dragon would weigh or how much hydrogen it would take to lift a dragon, but judging by how
much hydrogen it took to lift old derigibles <sp> compared to their payload I don't
think this is feasable.

One other thought, if I remember correctly, some dragons don't have wings. How do these
dragons maneuver if not by magical means? If I'm wrong and it is feasable for dragons to
use hydrogen for flight, how do wingless dragons move horizontally?
-----

/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Mark Sawko | GMI Engineering | Duct Tape: |
| sawk6112@****.gmi.edu | and Management | The solution to everything |
| | Institute | from global warming to |
| | Flint, MI | keeping your socks up. |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------/
Geek Code V2.1:
GE>$ d? H+ s+:- g- p? au a23 w+ v
C+ U P? L- !3 E? N+ K- W+@ M V--
-po+ Y
t++ 5- !j R+ G++ tv+@ b++ D+ B--
e+>e--- u** h- f? r---@ n---- y?
Message no. 5
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:31:06 -0700
Yea, verily, it does end up liqufied, and you know why? It's under
pressure. And it conserves space. So your gas bags in the dragon
would not be under enough pressure to liquify it, but enough pressure to
store it and provide buoyancy to a 2000 key citter? I think you've just
increased their size tenfold. If you filled the external tank with gaseous
hydrogen it still wouldn't float, and it weighs a drekload less than 2k kilos.
If the dragon is going to rely on flight and breathe from the same source,
then it can't fly if it has breathed too much? Not in my system. They are
not related. Along with the fact that hydrogen is one of the most difficult
things to isolate. There is no such thing as a seal. They only minimize
loss. True, 3000 years isn't much in the way of evolution, but how long
did it take for US to kill off the dodo, the buffalo, and a few other species,
let alone one that detonates with the slightest spark?

How doesn't magic work. There are levitate spells. (Meta)humans can
access the magic to draw fire from where ever. If (meta)humans could
not caste spells prior to the turning of the circle, perhaps dragons were
a sleep until their energy level was raised. The dragon's magical abilities
are different than those humanity uses. Some effects are similar, some
are different.

My reference for their reason for being is somewhat analogous to the
Arthurian belief in the Dragon of England. The dragon was the land. In
this context, it is the manifestation of the needs or desires or drives that
the land has. Shamanistic spirits are manifestations of a small local.
Greater spirits are embodiments of larger portions of their environments.
I suppose the question is are dragons merely critters who ebb and wane
with the magic cycles, which are increases and decreases of the spirit
of life essense, or are they a completely separate, alien species that
evolved in the distant past, and require mana for consciousness. Why
do they wish to aquire power? Maybe they're just used to being in
control, and the current state of the world requires it.

I don't think that having a large Bic lighter a dragon's mouth was what the
Dark Lord had in mind when the critters were conceived. I think I'll ask.

- Still skeptical
Message no. 6
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 18:42:09 GMT
Mon, 13 Mar 1995 10:07:06
Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>

writes

> This is in response to the hydrogen-dragon thoughts that have been cast
> about recently. The amount of H2 required to lift 2000 kilos is enormous.
> You don't see the Shuttle floating off its launch pad do you? Trying to
> rationalize dragons is artificial to me. They are a manifestation, maybe of
> Gaia.
Considering that scientific opinion tends to limit 'normal' flying
creatures to the nearly 3m wingspans of the very big eagles, and
ostriches cannot fly then i agree there must be some magic or
something in it. Handy as this gives a good reason for them to be out
and about only during the high part of the mana cycle when the magic
gives enough extra lift (in whatever way) for their wings to get them
airborne.
The closest to scintifically explained dragons i have seen are the
Pern ones, and the shadownrun variety tend to be rather fatter.


> As far as bazooka's being a recent development, how long ago
> have the chinese had rockets. And they've have a very old mythos
> concerning dragons.
>

easy solutions
1: keep out of range. - not so applicable now with missiles.
2: spell lock and a nice big armour spell - i'll put a few more rules
comment sat the bottom.

> Unfortunately, I have never seen a photograph of a dragon, getting ready
> to breathe or other, so I can't really say whether they need to "bloat up"
> first. If you consider that they can breathe every action they have, they
> would need to generate a drek load of hydrogen several times every
> FIVE SECONDS to accomplish this. That's unrealistic, the chemical
> reaction doesn't go that quick. Along with the fact that a hydrogen fire is
> very difficult to see. Which would make the "typical" representations of
> a conflagration coming from the creature's mouth overstated in the visual
> context, if nothing else. They would also need a hellacious cooling
> system in their mouths to keep from frying anything in the local.
>
> In the Shadowrun world/game/reference frame/whatever, magic is NOT
> ARTIFICIAL. Just as reptiles hibernate when the heliotropic energy is
> insufficient to stir their metabolisms, dragons behavior similarly with the
> magic energy level. The magic gene didn't express itself (except in a
> very few rare cases) until the magic cycle had developed /grown
> /increased to a certain extent. Read Ehran's speech for a refresher.
> And as magic is natural, why not use it to cover, at least in part, the
> dragon physiology.

as commented above necessary realistically.
but the fine acrobatics could easily be conventional flight

>
> As to why they don't all breathe fire, why don't they all look alike. Natural
> selection didn't do it, as the dragon is probably the top of this world's
> food chain. Human's may outnumber them, but so what. Wildebeast out
> number lions. The key lies in their reason for being, what makes who
> they are.

some of them breath gas, thats the other one FASA list for breath and
they don't say you cannot have them breath acid or something else
equally nasty.

>
> As far as FASA being wrong, they simply gave some outline stats. It's
> up to US to determine exactness and raison d'etre. They leave plenty of
> clues. I think we should try to stick somewhere in the ballpark.
>

As commented armour spells are rather a necessity
try ranger arms sm3 14S minus the 8 armour of your 'typical' lesser
dragon, yep thats a nice target 6 to resist and with firearms 6 and
smartgun (rather common combination) 6 - 10 sucesses (he's a PC and
shooting a dragon i think combat pool might get used) is likely and
the poor target only gets 20 odd dice plus maybe 6 threat rating oh
dear about 4 6's lets see 6 - 4 = 2 net so S stages to D and ex
dragon - now simple action number 2! - and we haven't even got beyomd
weapons in the main rules yet ( or spent any karma) - some of the
riggers or fields of fire stuff will do great dragons just as nicely.

so as Louis suggested go do some work and design your dragon properly
FASA state that the listed stats are for typical specimins and
considering that Dragons latin name includes 'Homo sapiens' i think
they might all be individuals. It will also keep any 'Big guns'
players who read the GM's sections of books completely in the dark as
to how hard the thing is, after all they could try talking to it, a
sight safer than finding out what IQ scores in the 200+ region (the
stat suggestion is well over 6! and 3 is supposed to be human norm
i.e. approx 100) do in the way of defenses you had not considered.

- ok just some comments
- This is a first posting, also the email lag to Britain can be
several hours so it may be somewhat behind.

Mark J. Steedman
rsms@******.eee.rgu.ac.uk
Message no. 7
From: "Sean \"Epicanis\" Clark" <dubiousu@******.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:53:40 -0800
On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Louis Barrera wrote:

> This is in response to the hydrogen-dragon thoughts that have been cast
> about recently. The amount of H2 required to lift 2000 kilos is enormous.
> You don't see the Shuttle floating off its launch pad do you? Trying to
> rationalize dragons is artificial to me. They are a manifestation, maybe of
> Gaia. As far as bazooka's being a recent development, how long ago
> have the chinese had rockets. And they've have a very old mythos
> concerning dragons.

Another good point...come to think of it, Chinese dragons WERE
personifications of natural forces, weren't they?

> Unfortunately, I have never seen a photograph of a dragon, getting ready
> to breathe or other, so I can't really say whether they need to "bloat up"
> first. If you consider that they can breathe every action they have, they
> would need to generate a drek load of hydrogen several times every
> FIVE SECONDS to accomplish this. That's unrealistic, the chemical
> reaction doesn't go that quick. Along with the fact that a hydrogen fire is
> very difficult to see. Which would make the "typical" representations of
> a conflagration coming from the creature's mouth overstated in the visual
> context, if nothing else. They would also need a hellacious cooling
> system in their mouths to keep from frying anything in the local.
>
I said this in a previous note, but: I think the dragon in
"Dragonslayer" makes a fine model. The way they animated it (her?) was,
I thought, very nice. When breathing fire, this dragon didn't puff up
any more than a human would (proportionally) from taking a very deep breath.

> In the Shadowrun world/game/reference frame/whatever, magic
is NOT
> ARTIFICIAL. Just as reptiles hibernate when the heliotropic energy is
> insufficient to stir their metabolisms, dragons behavior similarly with the
> magic energy level. The magic gene didn't express itself (except in a
> very few rare cases) until the magic cycle had developed /grown
> /increased to a certain extent. Read Ehran's speech for a refresher.
> And as magic is natural, why not use it to cover, at least in part, the
> dragon physiology.
>
> As to why they don't all breathe fire, why don't they all look alike. Natural
> selection didn't do it, as the dragon is probably the top of this world's
> food chain. Human's may outnumber them, but so what. Wildebeast out
> number lions. The key lies in their reason for being, what makes who
> they are.
>
Perhaps they represent different aspects of natural forces, or perhaps most
dragons are personifications of "natural forces" in general, with
individuals just having different emphasis on which types of "natural forces"
they are most and least powerful with.

If so - are there "Archetypical" dragons hiding out there somewhere who
have as much of their power as possible in ONE aspect? (A fire dragon, a
water dragon, a storm dragon...?)

Sorry, just free associating there...

> As far as FASA being wrong, they simply gave some outline stats. It's
> up to US to determine exactness and raison d'etre. They leave plenty of
> clues. I think we should try to stick somewhere in the ballpark.
>
> - Rocket Scientist
>
Message no. 8
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 21:11:43 -0700
Lou you sure have a hell of a way with words! What kind of player is
getting into my group now?

And am i ready for you? *chuckle*

Call me asap, we got to get your PC's set up for sunday!

Laters Edge

Curr Ahee Curr Ahee Curr Ahee Curr Ahee Curr Ahee Curr Ahee Curr Ahee Curr
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no Tactics: I make exhistance and the void my tactics.
I have no Sword: From the state which is above and beyond from trough I
make my Sword.
I have no Castle: I make immutable spirit my Castle.
I have no Talent: I make a quick mind my talent.
I have no Purpose: I make opportunity my purpose.
I have no miricle: Just Law is my miricle.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Peterson (Paul Finch) Edge | US Army Ret. 1/506th Inf (Mtr. Lt.)
EMT-Paramedic/BSN Wanna-be and Will-Be! Self Empowered Gun Nut
Really Pissed Off Ex-Marriot Fast Food Employee seeking Revenge
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stands Alone Stands Alone Stands Alone Stands Alone Stands Alone Stands Alone
Message no. 9
From: Kay and Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:05:42 -0600
Robert A. Hayden wrote
>Have you ANY idea how long evolutionary processes take? 2000 years of
>rockets isn't going to even make a dent in natural selection.

so, obviously with the lack of bones( fossils, etc.) one has little idea how
they have evolved. Personally I hear that one should not mention dinosaurs
to them as a possible ancester. So why couldn't they have 'migrated' from
else where? Perhaps a world with heavy gravity.

I'd always thought that the flame was a modification of a fireball ( or some
such spell) as an inate ability of some dragons. if they are inately magic,
this would seem logical, afterall how many talismongers need dragon's blood
as a spell component?


>The dragon doesn;'t digest hydrogen on demand, they instead store it
>throughout the body in a series of sacs. This is under pressure. They
>can release the gas throughout the body to increase boyancy, and then
>expell it through the mouth do decrease boyancy. If they use up all
>their gas, they are in trouble.

Why not magic. Or for that matter maybe they're psionic. I mean if you're
going this route, they (the big ones) could not eat enough food to actually
stay alive. They would be using a massive emount of energy to do anything.

Other things to consider:
So are they warm blooded or cold blooded?
What are their nearest living, or exstinct ancestors?
Why is there a lack of female dragons?
Why do stories always have dragons taking princesses?
(I have my own theories on this :)}
How could they lair for a thousand years without at least one of them accidently
being 'found'? (egads, not magic :))
How about new 'draconian' species? (in our campaigns we have added Celtic
Dragons, and several other dragon variations)
What are their stories of creation, (the great mother serpent ) or are they
children of some 'human' god such as Kali, Astarte, or one of the others?

Kay

p.s. What do you mean they've only been around for 3,000 years? Is that a
FASA statement? They appear in literature before this date. Can someone
let me know where the date comes from?
Message no. 10
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 12:08:56 GMT
Lay wrote -

----- Begin Included Message -----

<some other stuff as well>

Why is there a lack of female dragons?
How about new 'draconian' species? (in our campaigns we have added Celtic
Dragons, and several other dragon variations)

<snip>

----- End Included Message -----

The one in Dragonslayer was female wasn't she? It's funny that, I hadn't till
you mentioned it that all the SR dragons were male, except Arleesh, who
doesn't seem to be a _major_ player, anyone know of any _major_ female
dragons?


Celtic Dragons, ooh yes please. Save time, post them to ShadowRn, or
rec.games.cyber, so we can use/argue over them ASAP.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 11
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 09:31:17 -0700
Concerning female dragons:
(A) Why anthropomorphize and assume a dual sexual nature?
(B) It's been awhile, but didn't the dragon in "Never Trust an Elf" have a
clutch of eggs?

In response to those that say they always polymorph into a male figure
therefore they are male, if you are talking to an alien species and want to
present a powerful, superior force that they can understand, you
present yourself in terms they can understand. And, despite the year, I
get the impression that the world is still slightly male dominated. I am NOT
saying this is correct, just stating an observation.

Lou - Attack, Adapt, Migrate, or Perish
Message no. 12
From: "Sean \"Epicanis\" Clark" <dubiousu@******.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:18:09 -0800
> so, obviously with the lack of bones( fossils, etc.) one has little idea how
> they have evolved. Personally I hear that one should not mention dinosaurs
> to them as a possible ancester. So why couldn't they have 'migrated' from
> else where? Perhaps a world with heavy gravity.

Or the metaplanes - perhaps their ancestors WERE personifications of
natural forces (i.e. the original dragons may have been, essentially,
powerful free-spirits..)
> I'd always thought that the flame was a modification of a fireball ( or some
> such spell) as an inate ability of some dragons. if they are inately magic,
> this would seem logical, afterall how many talismongers need dragon's blood
> as a spell component?
>
I don't know about "need". "Covet" might be a better word... :)

> >The dragon doesn;'t digest hydrogen on demand, they instead store it
> >throughout the body in a series of sacs. This is under pressure. They
> >can release the gas throughout the body to increase boyancy, and then
> >expell it through the mouth do decrease boyancy. If they use up all
> >their gas, they are in trouble.
>
> Why not magic. Or for that matter maybe they're psionic. I mean if you're
> going this route, they (the big ones) could not eat enough food to actually
> stay alive. They would be using a massive emount of energy to do anything.
>
> Other things to consider:
> So are they warm blooded or cold blooded?
I say warm! A "warm body" is a characteristic of the natural force of
"life"
existing. Well, it made sense to ME, anyway...

> What are their nearest living, or exstinct ancestors?
Good question. Free spirits? Or were they the dinosaurs that packed up
the populace into UFO's as the giant meteor approached? :)

> Why is there a lack of female dragons?
Who says there is?
> Why do stories always have dragons taking princesses?
> (I have my own theories on this :)}
If they WERE free-spirits, perhaps it was just because it was "expected of
them". Perhaps it was an essence thing (in classic literature, "maiden
princesses" were QUITE prone to fear and such intense emotions. Perhaps
the early dragons required raw essence to survive?)
> How could they lair for a thousand years without at least one of them accidently
> being 'found'? (egads, not magic :))
Perhaps they were forced back to their metaplanes by the lack of magic
(if they were free spririts), or perhaps they became something else for
the duration (whales, tigers, etc. and other "impressive but mundane"
critters that best embodied that particular dragon's "style").

> How about new 'draconian' species? (in our campaigns we have added Celtic
> Dragons, and several other dragon variations)
What is the difference between a "Celtic" dragon vs. a "standard"
"Western Dragon"? (I like the idea of having many individual variations
among dragons.)

> What are their stories of creation, (the great mother serpent ) or are they
> children of some 'human' god such as Kali, Astarte, or one of the others?

Like they'd tell anybody... :) Of course, this would depend on just what
they ARE..
>
> p.s. What do you mean they've only been around for 3,000 years? Is that a
> FASA statement? They appear in literature before this date. Can someone
> let me know where the date comes from?

Probably just misinformation spread by the agents of the Shadow Council
of dragons that decides just how much the puny (meta)humans should
know... :)
Message no. 13
From: Sam Shults <LSSHU1990@*****.NSULA.EDU>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:04:21 -0600
I was just wondering, with these air sacs that are used to store
hydrogen, if the dragon is killed, is there a chance that there will
be an explosion?
Message no. 14
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:53:10 -0500
On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Louis Barrera wrote:

> Concerning female dragons:
> (A) Why anthropomorphize and assume a dual sexual nature?

Good point, but we should check all current FASA publications and
see if there's any hint there before we decide about that.

> (B) It's been awhile, but didn't the dragon in "Never Trust an Elf" have a
> clutch of eggs?

Yes...quite a lot of eggs, in fact, though it didn't say just how
many were killed before whatsizname was stopped. Also, I got the idea
that this cache didn't belong to just that specific dragon (Lofyr, was
it?), but perhaps to all the dragonkind.

> In response to those that say they always polymorph into a male figure
> therefore they are male, if you are talking to an alien species and want to
> present a powerful, superior force that they can understand, you
> present yourself in terms they can understand. And, despite the year, I
> get the impression that the world is still slightly male dominated. I am NOT
> saying this is correct, just stating an observation.

Yes, good point. We must research this.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "Without News I am nothing..." |
| -Mark Holmes, Newsadmin, Capital Area INTERNET Service |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 15
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 21:04:36 -0500
On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Sam Shults wrote:

> I was just wondering, with these air sacs that are used to store
> hydrogen, if the dragon is killed, is there a chance that there will
> be an explosion?

Yes. Especially when the other Dragons show up. *grin*

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "It's hard to keep your head above water |
| when you're up to your ass in alligators." |
| --Crow T. Robot, MST3K "Swamp Diamonds" |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 16
From: Thaine Lyman <CantSurf@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 01:42:21 -0800
>> How could they lair for a thousand years without at least one of them
accidently
>> being 'found'? (egads, not magic :))
>Perhaps they were forced back to their metaplanes by the lack of magic
>(if they were free spririts), or perhaps they became something else for
>the duration (whales, tigers, etc. and other "impressive but mundane"
>critters that best embodied that particular dragon's "style").


Wow, now THAT is a great idea! Just like the Elves and Orks were trapped
in the bodies of Humans, the Dragons were trapped in the bodies of
fearsome, but mundane, animals. That's a good good idea; it would
really add a little bit of depth to the term "Awakening" as well as
explain the lack of any kind of fossil record or "discovery" of
dragonkind. I like that.

-T
Message no. 17
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:40:32 +0100
I'd like to say a few thinkgs about the "flame projection" power first.
After reading the comments of out Fearless Leader an idea struck me, what if
the "flame projection" ability in FASAs sourcebooks is nothing else than a
catchall conjured up by 205x scientists to explain an ability different
awakened animals seem to demonstrate. This doesnt mean that all animals
do it the same way - its just means that the results are similar. This
interpretation would give us a wide berth effectivelly leting us decide
wich ones "just do it" using magic and which ones use a more
"scientific"
method.

> Unfortunately, I have never seen a photograph of a dragon, getting ready
> to breathe or other, so I can't really say whether they need to "bloat up"
> first. If you consider that they can breathe every action they have, they
> would need to generate a drek load of hydrogen several times every
> FIVE SECONDS to accomplish this. That's unrealistic, the chemical
> reaction doesn't go that quick.

Well no one said that dragons can breathe 100 times a minute :) We'll
just have to put a limit to that ability. Of course dragons would like
to have us think otrherwise ....... :)

> Along with the fact that a hydrogen fire is
> very difficult to see. Which would make the "typical" representations of
> a conflagration coming from the creature's mouth overstated in the visual
> context, if nothing else. They would also need a hellacious cooling
> system in their mouths to keep from frying anything in the local.

I agree this is a problem we'll have to work on if we decide to
accept the "flying through hydrogen" aproach.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 18
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:44:22 +0100
> Yea, verily, it does end up liqufied, and you know why? It's under
> pressure. And it conserves space. So your gas bags in the dragon
> would not be under enough pressure to liquify it, but enough pressure to
> store it and provide buoyancy to a 2000 key citter? I think you've just
> increased their size tenfold. If you filled the external tank with gaseous
> hydrogen it still wouldn't float, and it weighs a drekload less than 2k kilos.

Well as we already know for a fact dragons have some pretty big wings, so
what if the hydrogen serves no other purpose other than to "reduce" their
"effective" weight. This would indirectly allow them to fly with the help of
their wings.

> If the dragon is going to rely on flight and breathe from the same source,
> then it can't fly if it has breathed too much? Not in my system.

I agree.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 19
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 15:00:13 +0100
> so, obviously with the lack of bones( fossils, etc.) one has little idea how
> they have evolved. Personally I hear that one should not mention dinosaurs
> to them as a possible ancester. So why couldn't they have 'migrated' from
> else where? Perhaps a world with heavy gravity.

I think that this is the case, as dragons (Big 'D' ?) have been known to
scoff at messages refering to themselves as beings of this world.

> Other things to consider:
IMHO

> So are they warm blooded or cold blooded?
Warm blooded.

> What are their nearest living, or exstinct ancestors?
None on earth/this plane.

> Why is there a lack of female dragons?
Who sez so? Ever met Arleesh ?

> Why do stories always have dragons taking princesses?
> (I have my own theories on this :)}
Well maybe they did, old Dunkie does have a charisma of 10 you know.

> How could they lair for a thousand years without at least one of them accidently
> being 'found'? (egads, not magic :))
Good question :)

> How about new 'draconian' species? (in our campaigns we have added Celtic
> Dragons, and several other dragon variations)
Sounds interesting

> What are their stories of creation, (the great mother serpent ) or are they
> children of some 'human' god such as Kali, Astarte, or one of the others?
I doubt that they have such superstitions.

> p.s. What do you mean they've only been around for 3,000 years? Is that a
> FASA statement? They appear in literature before this date. Can someone
> let me know where the date comes from?
On the contrary, FASA has admited that they have been here for at least 2
cycles.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 20
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 15:11:30 +0100
> Wow, now THAT is a great idea! Just like the Elves and Orks were trapped
> in the bodies of Humans, the Dragons were trapped in the bodies of
> fearsome, but mundane, animals. That's a good good idea; it would
> really add a little bit of depth to the term "Awakening" as well as
> explain the lack of any kind of fossil record or "discovery" of
> dragonkind. I like that.

Yes, but already awakened creatures did not change back. Harlequin was
elven all through the fifth age.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 21
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 15:09:52 +0100
> Yes...quite a lot of eggs, in fact, though it didn't say just how
> many were killed before whatsizname was stopped. Also, I got the idea
> that this cache didn't belong to just that specific dragon (Lofyr, was
> it?), but perhaps to all the dragonkind.

Exactly, this gave me the impression that dragons in generall tend to
stick together (aside form some personal vendetas perhaps) so I think
that no corporate dragon (Lowfyr, Peryanwyr) would allow for dragons
to be exploited by any corp.
This just gave me an idea, how about a story about a dragon trying to
save his/her young. This dont always have to be that scheeming/bad guys
you know :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 22
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:59:44 GMT
> > Wow, now THAT is a great idea! Just like the Elves and Orks were trapped
> > in the bodies of Humans, the Dragons were trapped in the bodies of
> > fearsome, but mundane, animals. That's a good good idea; it would
> > really add a little bit of depth to the term "Awakening" as well as
> > explain the lack of any kind of fossil record or "discovery" of
> > dragonkind. I like that.
>
> Yes, but already awakened creatures did not change back. Harlequin was
> elven all through the fifth age.
> -
> "Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

did they ? - Harlequin and company are a special case, i haven't seen
anything from FASA to suggest that most (by this i mean mortal, as in
not got the immunity to aging power (yes Harliquin has got that,
according to FASA)) Metahumans didn't revert to human at the end of
the fourth age
of course though Dragons are probably in the 'immortal' (baring
accidents with guns/magic or inconveniently positioned planets)
category.

another fact is that Ehran's lab (see the first Harlequin adventure)
remains hidden from everyone even now (except possibly his peers) and
i get the impression he has had it hidden where it is a long time
before 2011, i.e. some magic done at high mana levels seems to
continue working even at the bottom of the mana cycle, it is just a
power variation not an on/off switch after all.

Mark
Message no. 23
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 15:07:40 GMT
> > How could they lair for a thousand years without at least one of them accident
> > being 'found'? (egads, not magic :))
> Good question :)
>
>
simple some magic seems to work even during low mana

e.g. Ehran's lab (see the first Harlequin adventure)
remains hidden from everyone even now (except possibly his peers) and
i get the impression he has had it hidden where it is a long time
before 2011, i.e. some magic done at high mana levels seems to
continue working even at the bottom of the mana cycle, it is just a
power variation not an on/off switch after all.


> > p.s. What do you mean they've only been around for 3,000 years? Is that a
> > FASA statement? They appear in literature before this date. Can someone
> > let me know where the date comes from?
> On the contrary, FASA has admited that they have been here for at least 2
> cycles.
>
> --
> "Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

there are dragons in Earthdawn (4th age) and thats > 5000 years ago,
probably nearer 7000, and i have heard a comment that there are
rumors that the second age was the age of dragons, now thats 4 cycles
back (arround 20000 years, though as they vary in length we need some
one with a copy of the Malayan calander (as thats whar FASA appear to
use) on hand for more accurate figures.

as this is only the sixth age its quite possible there were only
dragons on earth from the second (1st high mana) onwards, and fossils
take millions of years to form (well unless some cheat uses magic to
make em anyway).


Mark
Message no. 24
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:59:21 -0700
On the question of being "trapped" in another creatures form, yes, I
concur. But perhaps we shouldn't limit it to creatures.
Trapped/transformed into part of a mountain, forest, etc. Maybe that's
why some of them are so fragged off at what we have done to Gaia. I
don't see any working with toxic's or insects. I wonder what they think
about what's happening in Chicago....
Message no. 25
From: "Sean \"Epicanis\" Clark" <dubiousu@******.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:46:02 -0800
On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > Wow, now THAT is a great idea! Just like the Elves and Orks were trapped
> > in the bodies of Humans, the Dragons were trapped in the bodies of
> > fearsome, but mundane, animals. That's a good good idea; it would
> > really add a little bit of depth to the term "Awakening" as well as
> > explain the lack of any kind of fossil record or "discovery" of
> > dragonkind. I like that.
>
> Yes, but already awakened creatures did not change back. Harlequin was
> elven all through the fifth age.
>
I doubt it would take anywhere near as much "magical energy" to maintain
a relatively "mundane" form whereas a Dragon could theoretically require
all kinds of "magical power" present to maintain the existence of such an
impressive form.
Message no. 26
From: Sam Shults <LSSHU1990@*****.NSULA.EDU>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 19:06:31 -0600
In reply to the forms that the Dragons take when there was no magic,
how about if they became part of the earth. I remember a description
somewhere in the shadowrun book about a dragon appearing out of the
volcano, is it possible that the Dragons merged with a specific part
of the earth - for instance, a volcano...
Message no. 27
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 20:45:14 -0500
On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Louis Barrera wrote:

> On the question of being "trapped" in another creatures form, yes, I
> concur. But perhaps we shouldn't limit it to creatures.
> Trapped/transformed into part of a mountain, forest, etc. Maybe that's
> why some of them are so fragged off at what we have done to Gaia. I
> don't see any working with toxic's or insects. I wonder what they think
> about what's happening in Chicago....

Perhaps they were working behind the scenes to try to make sure
that nothing would happen in Chicago, and this was one of the few times in
which they failed. Wouldn't surprise me if the insect spirits are the
only things which put fear into the hearts of the Dragons.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "Don't hate the media. Become the media." |
| --Jello Birfen of the Dead Kennedys |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 28
From: "Sean \"Epicanis\" Clark" <dubiousu@******.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 22:15:13 -0800
On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Louis Barrera wrote:

> On the question of being "trapped" in another creatures form, yes, I
> concur. But perhaps we shouldn't limit it to creatures.
> Trapped/transformed into part of a mountain, forest, etc. Maybe that's
> why some of them are so fragged off at what we have done to Gaia. I
> don't see any working with toxic's or insects. I wonder what they think
> about what's happening in Chicago....
>
AH! Yes!

Anybody else ever hiked up to Half Dome in Yosemite?...
Message no. 29
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:25:31 GMT
Sam Shults
writes

> In reply to the forms that the Dragons take when there was no magic,
> how about if they became part of the earth. I remember a description
> somewhere in the shadowrun book about a dragon appearing out of the
> volcano, is it possible that the Dragons merged with a specific part
> of the earth - for instance, a volcano...
>
sounds quite a possibility actually as there is also the matter of
thier hoard, at least one dragon has bought out a corporation with
gold from it's hoard, and they are not listed as having the wealth
power, never mind the fact that Lofwry found enough cash to buy a
hole Megacorp. So it wasn't just the dragon to hide.

Mark
Message no. 30
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 08:36:27 GMT
J.D. Falk
writes
> On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Louis Barrera wrote: >
> > On the question of being "trapped" in another creatures form, yes, I
> > concur. But perhaps we shouldn't limit it to creatures.
> > Trapped/transformed into part of a mountain, forest, etc. Maybe that's
> > why some of them are so fragged off at what we have done to Gaia. I
> > don't see any working with toxic's or insects. I wonder what they think
> > about what's happening in Chicago....
>
> Perhaps they were working behind the scenes to try to make sure
> that nothing would happen in Chicago, and this was one of the few times in
> which they failed. Wouldn't surprise me if the insect spirits are the
> only things which put fear into the hearts of the Dragons.
>
BUGS!! i somewhat doubt that i'm affraid considering PC's can knock
the things off in moderate numbers though they are quite nasty are
force 10 or so.
The thing that puts fear into great Dragons is the 'Devourer of great
dragons' it's a horror (see Earthdawn - and hope, like thats going
to help, you don't find and horrors in SR). This thing hunts great
dragons for fun!, and although i have not got to study the stats i am
assured it could do the job.

as to working with bugs, well any silly enough to do that were
gonners in the fourth age and conidering they are supposed to be
rather intelligent the rest probably learnt the lesson. You could
well be right about working to stop Chicago, particularly Lofwry, and
any more that own corps as by the time Chicago went down the
corporate court knew all about the bugs little cult scam, hence the
corp swat teams (don't know if you've read Burning Bright).
could say more but that FASA adventure is not old enough to ensure
everyones seen the contents yet, and it could spoil the nice/horrible
suprises.

Mark
Message no. 31
From: Andy Butcher <Fiend@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:49:17 GMT
Just my thoughts on the Dragonlore thread...

First off, I think it's a great idea, and I'd certainly be interested in
writing some stuff for it. As I think that the hydrogen idea is not only
impractible but also detracts from the power and majesty of the dragons, I'd
like to volunteer to shoot this one down in (almost invisible) flames ;)

Secondly, the discussion of where the dragons came from/where they went in
the Fifth Age seems to be forgetting one of the weirdest things about
dragons (from a biology point of view, anyway). Western Dragons, like a few
other critters, are hexapod creatures - they have 3 pairs of limbs,
completely unlike every existing vertebrate. This means that there's very
little chance (like, about none) that they evolved on Earth. In which case,
there's not much chance that they spent the Fifth Age in the form of a
mundane animal (as there aren't any six limbed animals around).

Both Feathered Serpents and Eastern Dragons, though, are quadrapod (two
pairs of limbs) creatures. This means that in theory they could have evolved
on Earth, and could have spent the Fifth Age as some ordinary (if rare and
jolly large) animal.

The difference between four and six limbs is very significant in biological
terms. With current classification there's no way that Western Dragons would
be seen as even vaguely related to the other species. But in ShadowRun
they're all Dragons. How come? This is something that the 'scientists' of
Dragonlore should look into... ;)

Andy Butcher | "Whether you think you will succeed or not,
PC Gamer Magazine | you are right."
Fiend@*********.co.uk | Henry Ford
Message no. 32
From: Geoffrey Gerrietts <phinar@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 05:39:02 -0600
>I doubt it would take anywhere near as much "magical energy" to maintain
>a relatively "mundane" form whereas a Dragon could theoretically require
>all kinds of "magical power" present to maintain the existence of such an
>impressive form.

A more potent version of the transform spell could do the trick. Probably
involve ritual sorcery and tremendous drain, but it *could* happen...

<G>

"DOS=HIGH? I knew it was on
SOMETHING!"

MQU/CH S G- Q+ 9++ y W++(-) C N+
Message no. 33
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:01:41 +0100
> > Yes, but already awakened creatures did not change back. Harlequin was
> > elven all through the fifth age.
> >
> I doubt it would take anywhere near as much "magical energy" to maintain
> a relatively "mundane" form whereas a Dragon could theoretically require
> all kinds of "magical power" present to maintain the existence of such an
> impressive form.

But you take for granted that it takes magical energy to sustain the
awakened form. That is not so - the magical energy just triggers the
genes and they are the ones that do the trick not the magic.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 34
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:02:54 +0100
> In reply to the forms that the Dragons take when there was no magic,
> how about if they became part of the earth. I remember a description
> somewhere in the shadowrun book about a dragon appearing out of the
> volcano, is it possible that the Dragons merged with a specific part
> of the earth - for instance, a volcano...

An interesting approach - I'd say they hybernate and use elemental
earth/water/etc. to shield themselves from prying eyes.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 35
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:04:43 +0100
> > On the question of being "trapped" in another creatures form, yes, I
> > concur. But perhaps we shouldn't limit it to creatures.
> > Trapped/transformed into part of a mountain, forest, etc. Maybe that's
> > why some of them are so fragged off at what we have done to Gaia. I
> > don't see any working with toxic's or insects. I wonder what they think
> > about what's happening in Chicago....
>
> Perhaps they were working behind the scenes to try to make sure
> that nothing would happen in Chicago, and this was one of the few times in
> which they failed. Wouldn't surprise me if the insect spirits are the
> only things which put fear into the hearts of the Dragons.

This is a great idea J.D. :) Dragons could have some sort of council
(like the corp council) that deals with threats they deem "too big for
the puny humans to handle" :) They could conspire to do all sorts of things.
Hech they probably even control the corp council :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 36
From: The Wyrm Ouroboros <oroboros@******.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS? -Reply
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:06:59 -0800
> This is a great idea J.D. :) Dragons could have some sort of council
> (like the corp council) that deals with threats they deem "too big for
> the puny humans to handle" :) They could conspire to do all sorts of things.
> Hech they probably even control the corp council :)
>

Heck, in my world, they do..... ;)
Don't tell my players, though. 'Course, I've got an entire cosmology
built around an ugly conglomeration of Christian religion (semi-forced
into doing it subtly by one of my players), SR, and that wacky, wild,
wonderful game called 'Dark Conspiracy'. (I always call it 'DK', for
some reason. Probably because all the retro-tech is made by the Russians.)

Hmmmm. *thinks about writing it all up and offering it to the .net*

Listen, chaps -- all this supposition about dragons should, like, wait
for the 'list' to pop up, huh? Although I have to admit, it'd be more
'realistic' if one of us could find a way to set up a temporary BBS that
records and logs everything. Keep all the posts in order....

*sigh*

Anyhow. One last suggestion, .omae. We should find a way of using the
'official' SR documents in the NERPS Dragons; my thought is to say such
things as 'Dr Sargent's works' or, maybe, 'Gascoigne's Second Theorem'
or some such dressed-up drek. Give page reference numbers if you really
want.... :P

Can't wait to play Magic's Advocate to allayou scientists out there.
(A magical theorist, that's me!)


--
Ouroboros
The (Dead) Wyrm of the .Net
Message no. 37
From: Kay and Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:25:46 -0600
>In reply to the forms that the Dragons take when there was no magic,
>how about if they became part of the earth. I remember a description
>somewhere in the shadowrun book about a dragon appearing out of the
>volcano, is it possible that the Dragons merged with a specific part
>of the earth - for instance, a volcano...
>
>
How about if there is a new-nifty undiscovered by humans spell that allows
dragons the ability to create/warp space on this plane creating a
mini-bubble that they can lair in. Something that you literally would have
to fall into, and maybe they could have placed them in areas not normally
traveled like in volcanoes or in caves that had legends of monsters, sea
caves, etc.
I don't really like the idea that a dragon is an elemental force. I
believe thay could easily identify with some of the elemental powers the
same way some mages are fire mages (they like/prefer flames) or water mages
(they like/prefer illusions, water). After a period of time they probably
feel closer to some aspects of magic than others.
i propose another idea at this point: In some of the reading from some of
the stories, etc. it seems to me that DRAGONS exist in more than one plane
of existance. They are much more aware of astral happenings than one would
expect.
I'm not sure where but also a mention of them flying through astrally, in
one of the stories. What if they maintain themselves on more than one plane
at a time?
They are a creature living within a 4 or 5 dimensional world. (yes go ahead
and tell me time is the 4th dimension :)) if they were living
multi-dimensional it would explain why there actions, and conversations are
so terrible alien to us.
kay
Message no. 38
From: "Sean \"Epicanis\" Clark" <dubiousu@******.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:13:26 -0800
On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Kay and Pete Hanson wrote:

> >In reply to the forms that the Dragons take when there was no magic,
> >how about if they became part of the earth. I remember a description
> >somewhere in the shadowrun book about a dragon appearing out of the
> >volcano, is it possible that the Dragons merged with a specific part
> >of the earth - for instance, a volcano...
> >
> >
> How about if there is a new-nifty undiscovered by humans spell that allows
> dragons the ability to create/warp space on this plane creating a
> mini-bubble that they can lair in. Something that you literally would have
> to fall into, and maybe they could have placed them in areas not normally
> traveled like in volcanoes or in caves that had legends of monsters, sea
> caves, etc.

Hmmmm....in the White Wolf games setting there are "realms" (aka
"Metaplanes) in the spirit world (aka "Astral Space"), some of which ARE
this sort of thing - dream realms, paradox realms, etc. etc.

HA...imagine a mage on an Astral Quest stumbling onto the realm of a
resting Dragon...

> I don't really like the idea that a dragon is an elemental force. I
> believe thay could easily identify with some of the elemental powers the
> same way some mages are fire mages (they like/prefer flames) or water mages
> (they like/prefer illusions, water). After a period of time they probably
> feel closer to some aspects of magic than others.

Not actual elemental forces, just PERSONIFICATIONS of natural forces, to one
degree or another. At least, that was MY idea...

> i propose another idea at this point: In some of the reading from some of
> the stories, etc. it seems to me that DRAGONS exist in more than one plane
> of existance. They are much more aware of astral happenings than one would
> expect.
> I'm not sure where but also a mention of them flying through astrally, in
> one of the stories. What if they maintain themselves on more than one plane
> at a time?

The only story I've read thus far is "2XS" which didn't involve Dragons.
Did the Dragon "bring his physical body with him" through astral space?
Message no. 39
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:24:28 GMT
> Isn't there something in one of the novels about the House of Krup being a
> family of arms merchants all the way back to the Crusades? And also that
> although the family is dying, Lofwry considers them, 'his' family. (I hope
> I'm remembering this correctly) If so, does he mean it literrally, or
> possesively?
> We use one word to summon up dragon traits in our campaigns, "MINE"
> Who's going to argue?
> Kay
>
I unfortumately have not read all the novels hence don't know that
one. So you could well have information i have not read.

Mark
Message no. 40
From: Sam Shults <LSSHU1990@*****.NSULA.EDU>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:01:38 -0600
My original statement that the dragons became part of the earth when
magic was finished, could be changed a little to make a better point.
Okay, what if there were portals to another plane/dimension/whatever
that the dragons originated from. The dragons, being the intelligent/
wise creatures that they were knew that the end of the magical era
was near, so they decided to hold up in this dimension until the time
came when they could return. They go through the portal (for example,
a portal could have been in a volcano), and taking all their gold,
treasure whatever with them, they live it up. When they sense that
magic has returned, they go back out of their portal, and make contact
with the races again. Imagine being in an airplane and all of a sudden
seeing a dragon soar out of volcano.
Message no. 41
From: Thaine Lyman <CantSurf@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 20:35:58 -0800
Andy Butcher wrote:

>Secondly, the discussion of where the dragons came from/where they went
in
>the Fifth Age seems to be forgetting one of the weirdest things about
>dragons (from a biology point of view, anyway). Western Dragons, like a
few
>other critters, are hexapod creatures - they have 3 pairs of limbs,
>completely unlike every existing vertebrate. This means that there's
very
>little chance (like, about none) that they evolved on Earth. In which
case,
>there's not much chance that they spent the Fifth Age in the form of a
>mundane animal (as there aren't any six limbed animals around).


Wait a minute, Andy... nobody is talking about a purely natural
evolutionary process here. This is The Awakening. Humans never had no
dermal bone deposition (read: horns, spines, etc.), and yet, when UGE
came around, the Trolls came into being. If a human can sprout horns,
gain one meter in height and 150 kilograms in weight, and thusly
goblinize into a Troll, then some other animal can surely gain a couple
of limbs when Awakening into a Dragon.

-T
Message no. 42
From: Guido Ferraro <crs@****.UNITO.IT>
Subject: Re: DRAGONS AS NEXT NERPS?
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 23:10:25 +0000
On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Mark Steedman wrote:

> > > How could they lair for a thousand years without at least one of them
accide
> nt
> > > being 'found'? (egads, not magic :))
> > Good question :)
> >
> >
> simple some magic seems to work even during low mana
>
> e.g. Ehran's lab (see the first Harlequin adventure)
> remains hidden from everyone even now (except possibly his peers) and
> i get the impression he has had it hidden where it is a long time
> before 2011, i.e. some magic done at high mana levels seems to
> continue working even at the bottom of the mana cycle, it is just a
> power variation not an on/off switch after all.
>
>
> > > p.s. What do you mean they've only been around for 3,000 years? Is that a
> > > FASA statement? They appear in literature before this date. Can someone
> > > let me know where the date comes from?
> > On the contrary, FASA has admited that they have been here for at least 2
> > cycles.
> >
> > --
> > "Believe in Angels." -- The Crow
>
> there are dragons in Earthdawn (4th age) and thats > 5000 years ago,
> probably nearer 7000, and i have heard a comment that there are
> rumors that the second age was the age of dragons, now thats 4 cycles
> back (arround 20000 years, though as they vary in length we need some
> one with a copy of the Malayan calander (as thats whar FASA appear to
> use) on hand for more accurate figures.
>
> as this is only the sixth age its quite possible there were only
> dragons on earth from the second (1st high mana) onwards, and fossils
> take millions of years to form (well unless some cheat uses magic to
> make em anyway).
>
>
> Mark
>


Well, the magic level goes down, but it never reaches zero. Magic may
subside, but local variations are possible and emotional energy - like
that involved in the creation of a site like Ehran's sanctum - is a
crucial factor in magical activity (think background count, chummer).
Besides that, ol' Ehran has gathered enough ancient magical objects
there to make your average Joe wizard go crazy...

-Gillian-

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