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Message no. 1
From: Steve Mancini <phi@****.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:05:30 EST
I just chekced the recent list of submissions to discover this
guy was still on the list. Has he been ammended to answer the
below questions I posted quite some time ago?

:: Character: Sandman
::
:: > Other than his hallmark greatcoat he always wears a pendent that noone
:: > can really remember well afterwards.
::
:: Why can't people remember it?
::
:: > Surely he is magical, and yet noone can assense him.
::
:: Why can't he be assensed?
::
:: - Da Minotaur
::
::


Without a decent justification for the above questions, I vote
we reject this guy.

-Da Minotaur

+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Steven Mancini | The most merciful thing in the world... |
| phi@****.cc.purdue.edu | Is the inability of the human mind to |
| Political Science Dept. | correlate all its contents. - Lovecraft |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
Message no. 2
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 21:40:28 -0500
I just chekced the recent list of submissions to discover this
guy was still on the list. Has he been ammended to answer the
below questions I posted quite some time ago?

:: Character: Sandman
::
:: > Other than his hallmark greatcoat he always wears a pendent that noone
:: > can really remember well afterwards.
::
:: Why can't people remember it?

I didn't submit the article, but I'd assume that a spell lock for a Forget
spell would do the trick.

::
:: > Surely he is magical, and yet noone can assense him.
::
:: Why can't he be assensed?

Excellent question. Why not? I can't think of anything that doesn't appear on
the astral plane.



> Without a decent justification for the above questions, I vote
> we reject this guy.

So do I.

Matt
Message no. 3
From: "David J. Altman" <khanx@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 21:21:26 -0800
>Sorry 'bout this, but I am in the middle of finals. I don't have
time for a revision that will address your concerns. You may, of course,
vote as you see fit. I'm hoping that GMs will use these mysteries as a
way to include color and personal touches to the game. Any explanation
of why these unusual things occur can be valid. Unlike Mr. Carter, I am
very fluid on allowing new stuff into the game. I feel that there is no
need to explain or even rationalize why some things are. I want GMs to
be able to really take control of the NPC and the game.

Dave A. "Khanx/Prince Solarial/Sun"

> I just chekced the recent list of submissions to discover this
> guy was still on the list. Has he been ammended to answer the
> below questions I posted quite some time ago?
>
> :: Character: Sandman
> ::
> :: > Other than his hallmark greatcoat he always wears a pendent that noone
> :: > can really remember well afterwards.
> ::
> :: Why can't people remember it?
> ::
> :: > Surely he is magical, and yet noone can assense him.
> ::
> :: Why can't he be assensed?
> ::
> :: - Da Minotaur
> ::
> ::
>
>
> Without a decent justification for the above questions, I vote
> we reject this guy.
>
> -Da Minotaur
>
> +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
> | Steven Mancini | The most merciful thing in the world... |
> | phi@****.cc.purdue.edu | Is the inability of the human mind to |
> | Political Science Dept. | correlate all its contents. - Lovecraft |
> +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
>
Message no. 4
From: David A Dauwen <JB16@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 02:10:59 CST
AMEN...
add my name to the REVOKE,
David A. Dauwen jb16@*******
Message no. 5
From: Amy Renaud <nhy@******.UMD.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 12:14:34 -0500
On Wed, 16 Mar 1994, Matt wrote:

>
> I just chekced the recent list of submissions to discover this
> guy was still on the list. Has he been ammended to answer the
> below questions I posted quite some time ago?
>
> :: Character: Sandman
> ::
> :: > Other than his hallmark greatcoat he always wears a pendent that
noone
> :: > can really remember well afterwards.
> ::
> :: Why can't people remember it?
>
> I didn't submit the article, but I'd assume that a spell lock for a Forget
> spell would do the trick.
>
> ::
> :: > Surely he is magical, and yet noone can assense him.
> ::
> :: Why can't he be assensed?
>
> Excellent question. Why not? I can't think of anything that doesn't appear on
> the astral plane
>
Try Elemetals, and Spirits, etc. They are eighter or creatures.
They eighter are physical or they are astral. Sooooooooo, if you can see
them you can't /see/ them and vice versa.

> > Without a decent justification for the above questions, I vote
> > we reject this guy.
>
> So do I.

I do not! The First book on magic suggests that a free spirit may be
used as a player character as long as a GM agrees to it. Admitadly free
sprits cannot get karma unless it is from a (meta)human so would
eventually make a bad choice, but them's the breaks.
Message no. 6
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 20:20:07 -0500
>
> Try Elemetals, and Spirits, etc. They are eighter or creatures.
>They eighter are physical or they are astral. Sooooooooo, if you can see
>them you can't /see/ them and vice versa.

>> > Without a decent justification for the above questions,
I vote
>> > we reject this guy.
>
>> So do I.

>I do not! The First book on magic suggests that a free spirit may be
>used as a player character as long as a GM agrees to it. Admitadly free
>sprits cannot get karma unless it is from a (meta)human so would
>eventually make a bad choice, but them's the breaks.


Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that spirits in manifest form still can be
assensed in the astral plane.

Matt
Message no. 7
From: Steve Mancini <phi@****.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 21:57:07 EST
Amy Renaud expouses:
::
::
:: > :: > Surely he is magical, and yet noone can assense him.
:: > ::
:: > :: Why can't he be assensed?
:: >
:: >
:: > Someone's comment about how everything appears on the Astral Plane.
::
:: Try Elemetals, and Spirits, etc. They are eighter or creatures.
:: They eighter are physical or they are astral. Sooooooooo, if you can see
:: them you can't /see/ them and vice versa.

Um... nope. Spirits and Elementals *always* exist in the astral
plane, when they manifest, they are dual natured.

::
:: I do not! The First book on magic suggests that a free spirit may be
:: used as a player character as long as a GM agrees to it. Admitadly free
:: sprits cannot get karma unless it is from a (meta)human so would
:: eventually make a bad choice, but them's the breaks.

So what is your point? If the Sandman is a a free spirit, he
should be described as one for the publication. We are not the
submitter's players who should be kept in the dark. And *even*
if he is a free spirit, and *even* if he has aura masking,
he still can be assensed by an initiate who hits the numbers
to pierce his masking. The original submission claims:

"noone can assense him."

Without some kind of justification this type of claim is
ridiculous.

Da Minotaur
Message no. 8
From: "John \"Ian\" Bassett" <PROSPERO@****.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 05:03:49 -0600
Hi Y'all,

I've been following this "Sandman" issue for a couple of days now, and after
glancing at each of the postings I've dumped the relevant mail directly into
the compost heap. At first I agreed with all the negative publicity that the
Sandman was getting, but now it seems I've had a change of heart. Ol' Sandy
has become the flavor of the month for the local lampoon squad and have this
soft spot for underdogs.

The complaints about Sandman have centered around his apparent violations of
the well known & often spouted rules of SR2. His lack of "assensability"
seems
to be a bone of major contention as this power has no explanation in the rules
we are used to. As a possible explanation I offer a lok at the Faerie creatures
of the "Paranormal Animals of Europe"; in speciffic, the Faerie power of
Fading. Faerie creatures with this power can "fade" from our world without any
hinderance of Astral or Physical barriers (natural or manufactured). Perhaps
the Sandman is a Faerie creature with a form of this power, something that
forces his prssence to exist _only_ on one plane at a time. Sandman would then
be un-assensable from any plane that he wasn't actually occupying.

I know that that sounds weak, it certainly sounds weak to me. But maybe the
Sandman needs no explanation for his odd power. Maybe we the GM's are too used
to having all the guts of a NPC or Monster laid out for us to examine. Player
Characters are deffinately too used to the manner in which SR2 lends itself to
explanation and extrapolation. It may be a shock to some of the players out
there to learn that GM's cheat all the time. Perpetually even. We fudge dice
rolls and give NPC's knowledge that should be unfathomable. But if it is done
to foster a better gaming atmosphere, there is nothing wrong with it.

The Sandman is a perfect example of this phenomenon. If used without providing
any explanation Sandman becomes a mystery to the characters who encounter it.
They may be frustrated at their failed attempts to assense & understand this stange
spirit, but if they're still able to "best" it in one of the "normal"
manners then their frustration will all be worth while. If the Sandman (or a
creation like it) is used to bully and beat up the players without any fear of
retribution, then it is an abuse that will ultimately lead to dissatisfaction
amoung the players (& eventually the GM alike).

Deffinitely the Sandman should be rewritten and any powers that are not listed
in SR2 should be noted, but they need not be explained explained or even dropped. Let GM's
who use such a character explain any new powers if they wish. Other-
wise sit back and let the mystery envelope you as well. What better way to spend
an evening than to watch your gamers unravel a puzzle that even you don't know
the answer to. Let _them_ explain it, right or wrong. Their decissions may
come back to haunt them some day.

- Prospero. (ps Sorry about the typos...I was butt tired when I wrote this.)
Message no. 9
From: Twist <winterh@******.EMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 14:49:23 EDT
>
> "noone can assense him."
>
> Without some kind of justification this type of claim is
> ridiculous.
>
It simply states that "noone", whoever that may be, can assense him. ;)
Ohhhh!!! You mean "no one". ;) Now that's a different story...

But seriously, I saw a thing in a magazine (Challenge, maybe) that
had info on Null-Magicians. Basicly they used the magic slot for creation
and were anti-magical. It worked off of essence like Magic does.
I don't recall whether they showed up astrally or not though, but it's
not far off to allow that if you allow for a null-mage.

Besides, the Nerps stuff is all only going to be used by GMs and we
decide what we use in our games anyhow.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
winterh@******.emich.edu (Twist) "It was hot the night we burned karma"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 23:22:57 -0600
Lack of asscencing, nulls, appear in NERPS: ShadowLore, and thus are
valid character types for NERPS: WWW.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 11
From: Amy Renaud <nhy@******.UMD.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 10:59:55 -0500
> > "noone can assense him."
> >
> > Without some kind of justification this type of claim is
> > ridiculous.
> >
> It simply states that "noone", whoever that may be, can assense him. ;)
> Ohhhh!!! You mean "no one". ;) Now that's a different story...
>
> But seriously, I saw a thing in a magazine (Challenge, maybe) that
> had info on Null-Magicians. Basicly they used the magic slot for creation
> and were anti-magical. It worked off of essence like Magic does.
> I don't recall whether they showed up astrally or not though, but it's
> not far off to allow that if you allow for a null-mage.
>
> Besides, the Nerps stuff is all only going to be used by GMs and we
> decide what we use in our games anyhow.
>
Sandman could exist, but he would have to be an initiate. He
could then use his masking powers to seem like he was not there.
Message no. 12
From: "David J. Altman" <khanx@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Question about "the Sandman"? (Repost)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:52:44 -0800
Prospero, you hit the nail on the head exactly. I'm not trying to
make an NPC that breaks the rules for its own sake, or because I'm
lazy, ridiculous, or stupid. What I wanted to do was post a character
that had real mystery -- even for the GM. Sandman is a unwriiten book
-
The trick is to allow the GM and PCs tto create him together.


Dave A.

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