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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: TSR Copyrights (fwd)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 01:03:13 -0700
Just thought you should all be aware of the action(s) that T$R is
now taking. Especially since some of us are involved in creating things
like ShadowLore and the Psi project. Read it and weep...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 94 01:21:51 -0700
From: Deird'Re Brooks <deirdre@***.org>
To: Multiple recipients of list <mage-l@*******.com>
Subject: TSR Copyrights (fwd)

Shannon Appel gives TSR something to chew on . . .

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 15:07:18 -0700
From: Shannon D. Appel <appel@****.Berkeley.EDU>
To: ars-magica@****.berkeley.edu
Subject: TSR Copyrights

Just thought you might be interested in the mail that TSR is now
sending to archive sites all over the world (and my, a-hem, irritated
reply).

I'm pretty sure that TSR is in the wrong on the whole issue, since
they're not just trying to protect copyrights or trademarks, but
_ideas_ (ie game systems) which do _not_ have protection. But, I'm
willing to let them stab themself in the foot. WoTC and the M:TG
Juggernaut will roll right over them.

Shannon

------- Forwarded Messages

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To: postmaster@****.berkeley.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 17:28:59 EDT
Subject: TSR Copyrighted Material



SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR:

Your site was recently included in a list of noted FTP sites for DUNGEONS AND
DRAGONS and ADVANCED DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS gaming material. You should be
aware that DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS and all related marks and properties are
copyrighted by TSR, Inc. of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.

You should also be aware that any items created without a specific license
are infringements of TSR copyrights. Such items include (but are not
limited to) any software, net.books, modules, tables, stories, or rules
modifications which contain elements from our copyrighted properties,
including characters, settings, realm names, noted magic items, spells,
elements of the gaming system, such as ARMOR CLASS, HIT DICE, and so forth.
To date, TSR has not licensed any of these net publications.

On behalf of TSR, Inc. I ask that you examine your public net sites at this
time and remove any material which infringes on TSR copyrights.

Our intention is to find a way to license these and future creative efforts.
In the meantime, remove them from your sites without delay.

To clarify reasoning for this request, I recently posted the following policy
statement to rec.games.frp.dnd:

> As we have begun to explore the online community in depth, we've found many
> avid gamers and fans. We're interested in providing you with the best in
> gaming products that meet our own standards of quality, as well as suiting
> your needs and interests. We know that many gamers develop campaigns and
> other materials entirely for their own use. We think this is great!
> However, when gamers begin sharing their creations with the public, whether
> for profit or not, they are infringing our rights. If we don't make an
> earnest attempt to prevent this infringement of our trademarks and
> copyrights, our ownership of these extremely valuable assets may be
> jeopardized.
>
> A gamer in this situation has a few options. He can strip every TSR
> trademark and all copyright from his creations before putting them in
public
> (i.e. "genericize" the adventure). Or he can share his creations with the
> public in a way that is licensed and approved by TSR. This is the more
> desirable solution, as it protects our rights, and still leaves room for
> gamers to share their creative expressions.
>
> Sometime very soon, we're going to create a place where gamers can legally
> upload and share their creations, including modules, stories and software.
At
> that time, I'd be happy to work with you to give your product a base to
work
> from. We are definitely interested in fostering goodwill among customers,
> and we'd like to see our upcoming effort as a pilot project. Eventually,
we
> want gamers to be able to turn to TSR in cyberspace as easily as they do in
a
> hobby store.

Please feel free to contact me with comments or questions. I will refer any
pertinent queries to our legal department as soon as I receive them.


Rob Repp | InterNet: tsrinc@***.com
Manager, Digital Projects Group | InterNet: mobius@*******.mcs.com
TSR, Inc. | CompuServe: 76217,761
__________________________________ | GEnie: TSR.Online AOL: TSR Inc
All opinions are my own, not TSR's | 414-248-3625 Fax 414-248-0389



------- Message 2

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Delivery-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 94 14:48:07 -0700
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Message-Id: <199407282143.OAA29298@****.Berkeley.EDU>
To: TSRInc@***.com
cc: postmaster@****.Berkeley.EDU, appel@****.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: TSR Copyrighted Material
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 28 Jul 1994 17:28:59 EDT."
<9407281728.tn308242@***.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 14:43:53 -0700
From: "Shannon D. Appel" <appel@****.Berkeley.EDU>

TSR:

soda.berkeley.edu maintains absolutely *NO* material for D&D, AD&D or
other T$R games at our FTP site. Rather, soda only supports archives
for games with reasonable legal departments, and T$R has not fallen
into that category for over 15 years. To be honest, I would rather
poke my eyes out with a dull stick than do anything at all to provide
any level of support for a product produced by such a capitalistic,
greedy, immoral company as T$R.

In short, you have nothing to worry about from soda. We have never
archived material for T$R products and we never will.

Shannon

------- End of Forwarded Messages
Message no. 2
From: Dylan Northrup <northrup@*****.CAS.USF.EDU>
Subject: Re: TSR Copyrights (fwd)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 09:29:48 -0400
On Sat, 30 Jul 1994, kyle kohler wrote:

> To: TSRInc@***.com
> Subject: Re: TSR Copyrighted Material
> From: "Shannon D. Appel" <appel@****.Berkeley.EDU>
>
> TSR:
>
> soda.berkeley.edu maintains absolutely *NO* material for D&D, AD&D or
> other T$R games at our FTP site. Rather, soda only supports archives
> for games with reasonable legal departments, and T$R has not fallen
> into that category for over 15 years. To be honest, I would rather
> poke my eyes out with a dull stick than do anything at all to provide
> any level of support for a product produced by such a capitalistic,
> greedy, immoral company as T$R.
>
> In short, you have nothing to worry about from soda. We have never
> archived material for T$R products and we never will.

I'd like to commend Ms Appel for her stance on this issue and her tact in
responding to this obviously braindead lawyer. Hmmm..."poke my eyes out
with a dull stick" Has a nice ring to it. And you must admit, it's
better than the alternative ;-)

If FASA ever gets to be as bad as T$R, you can bet that I won't play
their games, let alone help develop net.materials for them. I do not
think we shall have a problem with Dowd & Co. What they seem to
understand (and what apparently escapes the feeble minds of the T$R legal
department) is this is free publicity.

If someone sees this level of support for a gaming product, he/she will
probably wonder what the hype is about and buy a book or two for
themselves. It also creates a sense of competition that forces the
companies to come out with quality products ("Why should I buy this crap
module/supplement/etc. when I can get something better for the cost of
paper?")

*****************************************************************************
* Dylan Northrup <northrup@*****.cas.usf.edu> * PGP and Geek Code available *
*********************************************** via WWW and upon request *
* Will code HTML for food * KIBO #7 * <http://www.cas.usf.edu/dylan.html>; *
*****************************************************************************
-----------------------
Random Babylon 5 Quote:
-----------------------
"There are more important things in life than the next breath."
-- Tharg, "Believers"
Message no. 3
From: "S. Keith Graham" <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: TSR Copyrights (fwd)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 10:01:49 -0400
>You should also be aware that any items created without a specific license
>are infringements of TSR copyrights. Such items include (but are not
>limited to) any software, net.books, modules, tables, stories, or rules
>modifications which contain elements from our copyrighted properties,
>including characters, settings, realm names, noted magic items, spells,
>elements of the gaming system, such as ARMOR CLASS, HIT DICE, and so forth.
>To date, TSR has not licensed any of these net publications.

>On behalf of TSR, Inc. I ask that you examine your public net sites at this
>time and remove any material which infringes on TSR copyrights.

I would like to point out that if distributing a module is against
TSR's copyright, (or a character), then 2 GMs sharing a module, or
a GM passing out characters is a violation of the copyright. (Or
even, arguably, a player giving a copy of his character to his GM.)

As such, any tourney gaming not explicitly licensed by TSR is a violation
of their claimed copyright.

Further, electronic discussion of any kind that refers to the events
of a game is probably as violation of their copyright.

Last, I flipped through my old PH, and in the introduction, it mentioned
a "wealth of fan material" is available. I wonder if that could be
considered license to generate more. :-)

In any case, I encourage anyone that wants to pressure TSR about this
(just for the sake of precedent) to ask them if they think that distributing
copies of your own character sheet to others (including your GM) is a
violation of their copyright. After all, it contains copyrighted and
trademarked material of TSR.

Keith Graham

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!