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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Robert Hudsson <R_Hudson2@***.COM>
Subject: Re: China
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:21:37 UT
At 1:46 PM David Buehrer wrote:

> I got three words as to why I keep the hell outta China: I ain't Chinese.
>>) Graht

>)Actually, that's an excellent point. Most runners are from heavily urbanized
areas with extremely varied racial diversity - making it easy to blend in
because everyone looks so different. When making a run into many parts of the
world, the "curtain of invisibility" that exists in places like Seattle simply
doesn't exist. You automatically stand out because you aren'y Chinese, or
Sikh, or whatever. Plan for this - or plan for your funeral.
>)Asmodeus
Message no. 2
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: China
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:12:35 -0700
> >)Actually, that's an excellent point. Most runners are from heavily urbanized
areas with extremely varied racial diversity - making it easy to blend in because everyone
looks so different. When making a run into many parts of the world, the "curtain of
invisibility" that exists in places like Seattle simply doesn't exist. You
automatically stand out because you aren'y Chinese, or Sikh, or whatever. Plan for this -
or plan for your funeral.
> >)Asmodeus

(>) Anyone looking to run in Beijing oughtta see my pal Mock Tse Tung
first - best face mods this side of the Rockies, and skillchips to make
you think you was born floatin in a rice patty.
(>) ping!
Message no. 3
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: China
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:13:32 -0500
I was reading the Denver sourcebook and found
more official info on China. Unfortunately, it
doesn't completely jibe with what we've been
working on :(

On page 110, there is a reference to the fact that
Hong Kong and Taiwan are "reaquired" by the
Chinese government towards the end of the
twentieth century or soon thereafter (Hong Kong,
thats a no-brainer, Taiwan???) probably before
2015. There are no references to this being
"temporary", or that the Chinese government of
50 years before is any different than the
Chinese goverment of 2057.

Then there is this shadow quote:
>>>>>(O.K., all you chummers, listen up! I just
got back from a run in Hong Kong and the major
drek going down over there is unbelievable. I've
had a firsthand look at their magic. Mind control,
flying assassins, lightening pouring out of their
mouths, I saw it all. And the Chinese
government-- the so-called Sleeping Dragon--
is about to wake up. Think about it. What would
the percentage of mages is a country of a billion
people? And half the fragging people that don't
cast spells are physical adepts. <snip>
Soldier of Fortune(21:30:12/06-21-55)

Clearly implying that the government exists, and
that China has (more or less) a billion people,
Hong Kong and Taiwan. The main text only
implies it, and the most damning comments are
in a less reliable shadow comment, but I think
we need to go back to the drawing board.

Comments?

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 4
From: Robert Hudsson <R_Hudson2@***.COM>
Subject: Re: China
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:51:04 UT
At 10:13 AM 05/05/97 Mike Elkins wrote:

----------
>I was reading the Denver sourcebook and found
>more official info on China. Unfortunately, it
>doesn't completely jibe with what we've been
>working on :(

I pulled out my copy of Underworld Sourcebook, to see if the Triad/Tong
section had better data and found this on page 53:

"But the Triads didn't really make a splash in the 6th World until the shift
of power in Hong Kong and the violent dissolution of the Chinese government.
The Triads strongly backed the Hong Kong freedom movement that led to the
island's declaration of independence in 2015, less than twenty years after the
United Kingdom had returned its former colony to Chinese control. The
creation of the Hong Kong Free Enterprise Enclave gave the Triads their
tightest grip ever over the island, and to this day Hong Kong remains the
stronghold of the Triad powers."

I also found this quote, same book, same page:

"The Triads were implicated in the fall of China's communist government in
2019, though (as usual) no one can prove anything. The collapse of the
government in Beijing split China into warring provinces, each under the
control of a local warlord, junta, or splinter government that claimed to be
the true and rightful ruler of China. Years of violent civil war have ground
down by now to border skirmishes and bush wars between the major provinces,
with an occasional new warlord breaking away from one of the larger dominions
and setting himself in the petty dictator biz."

Since Underworld Sourcebook is a newer and presumably more up-to-date
reference than the Denver sourcebook, it looks like we're okay after all.

Rob Hudson
Message no. 5
From: Erik_Jameson@*****.COM
Subject: RE> China
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:25:11 -0800
RE> China
To Net Enhancements for Roleplaying Shadowrun<NERPS@********.itribe.net>


Problem. All the other sourcebooks and novels that mention
China say that it has fractured and become chaotic. But the
Denver books contradict that. So what's up?

Thoughts?

Erik
Message no. 6
From: Robert Hudsson <R_Hudson2@***.COM>
Subject: FW: China
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 03:53:45 UT
----------
Sent: Monday, May 05, 1997 6:51 PM
To: Net Enhancements for Roleplaying Shadowrun
Subject: RE: China

At 10:13 AM 05/05/97 Mike Elkins wrote:

----------
>I was reading the Denver sourcebook and found
>more official info on China. Unfortunately, it
>doesn't completely jibe with what we've been
>working on :(

I pulled out my copy of Underworld Sourcebook, to see if the Triad/Tong
section had better data and found this on page 53:

"But the Triads didn't really make a splash in the 6th World until the shift
of power in Hong Kong and the violent dissolution of the Chinese government.
The Triads strongly backed the Hong Kong freedom movement that led to the
island's declaration of independence in 2015, less than twenty years after the
United Kingdom had returned its former colony to Chinese control. The
creation of the Hong Kong Free Enterprise Enclave gave the Triads their
tightest grip ever over the island, and to this day Hong Kong remains the
stronghold of the Triad powers."

I also found this quote, same book, same page:

"The Triads were implicated in the fall of China's communist government in
2019, though (as usual) no one can prove anything. The collapse of the
government in Beijing split China into warring provinces, each under the
control of a local warlord, junta, or splinter government that claimed to be
the true and rightful ruler of China. Years of violent civil war have ground
down by now to border skirmishes and bush wars between the major provinces,
with an occasional new warlord breaking away from one of the larger dominions
and setting himself in the petty dictator biz."

Since Underworld Sourcebook is a newer and presumably more up-to-date
reference than the Denver sourcebook, it looks like we're okay after all.

Rob Hudson
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: RE> China
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 12:15:51 +0100
Erik_Jameson@*****.COM said on 17:25/ 5 May 97...

> Problem. All the other sourcebooks and novels that mention
> China say that it has fractured and become chaotic.

That's the impression I've always had of China in SR too.

> But the Denver books contradict that. So what's up?

A slip-up on the author's and/or editor's part? Since most sources
mentioning China (including the latest, the Underworld Sourcebook) say
it's fragmented, I saw we go with that.

*reads Denver book, p.112* It could be interpreted to mean that China
still has a central government, and that the various warlords are
theoretically under its control, but that the government has no real
power over what happens in the country. This would fit in with the
"Sleeping Dragon" remark -- it could be very powerful (dragon), but
isn't at the moment (because it's sleeping).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: Erik_Jameson@*****.COM
Subject: RE> Re: RE> China
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:13:49 -0800
RE> Re: RE> China
To Net Enhancements for Roleplaying Shadowrun<NERPS@********.itribe.net>


Gurth sayeth:

*reads Denver book, p.112* It could be interpreted to mean
that China
still has a central government, and that the various
warlords are
theoretically under its control, but that the government has
no real
power over what happens in the country. This would fit in
with the
"Sleeping Dragon" remark -- it could be very powerful
(dragon), but
isn't at the moment (because it's sleeping).

Says me:

This interpretation actually, I think, fits in quite well
with what we currently have. I'm sure the remnants of
Maoist China, and a few other warlords, would claim that
they control China. But in all reality, they barely control
their own turf.

I really don't think we should take the dragon reference
literally. I mean, dragons supposedly control both, oh
oops. I almost gave a huge spoiler away (that is, if you
decide to "believe" the last few pages of the Underworld
book). Let's just say we don't need another fraggin' dragon
controlling another part of Asia. Let's also remember that
the dragon metaphor is commonly used to describe Asian
nations and peoples.

In any case, I don't see the need for a major revision of
the China entry. If someone would like to make a shadow
comment about the Triads and China (similar to the
Underworld comments), please go ahead.

Erik
Message no. 9
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: RE> China
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 08:18:33 +1000
> Problem. All the other sourcebooks and novels that mention
> China say that it has fractured and become chaotic. But the
> Denver books contradict that. So what's up?

I hate to do it but I can't help agreeing with the Denver book. China
has a looooong history of nation-ness (is that a word? *grin*) and I
can't see that going down the tubes in 60 years. Not even with magic
around.

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.ADELPHI.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE> China
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:53:41 -0400
At 08:18 5/7/97 +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote:
>> Problem. All the other sourcebooks and novels that mention
>> China say that it has fractured and become chaotic. But the
>> Denver books contradict that. So what's up?
>
>I hate to do it but I can't help agreeing with the Denver book. China
>has a looooong history of nation-ness (is that a word? *grin*) and I
>can't see that going down the tubes in 60 years. Not even with magic
>around.


Wher did you get your history from? Even though China's had long-lasting
dynasties it's always been based on a feudal society. Same with Europe. Now
if Europe can splinter then so can China. Despite its "unified front" China
is full of different cultures and beliefs. Try this. With the magic
resurgence the tibetan monks became power houses. They took control of tibet
back, of course non-violently (probably just appeared in a puff of smoke and
said boo). That started a chain reaction the caused the local hotheads to
proclaim independence and become "warlords". All plausable, espescially in a
communist country, just look at what happened to the USSR. Its just a
byegone boogie man.


Sasquatch

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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| true in almost fifty percent of the languages of the Galaxy, |
| and many people have attempted to explain why. Usually these |
| explanations get bogged down in silly puns about "standing erect".|
| -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" |
| |
| ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
| tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
| No Website (No time to make one) |
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Message no. 11
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: RE> China
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 01:50:11 +0100
In article <Pine.BSF.3.95.970507081730.26284A-
100000@*******.dialix.com.au>, Lady Jestyr
<jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> rambled on endlessly about RE> China
>> Problem. All the other sourcebooks and novels that mention
>> China say that it has fractured and become chaotic. But the
>> Denver books contradict that. So what's up?
>
>I hate to do it but I can't help agreeing with the Denver book. China
>has a looooong history of nation-ness (is that a word? *grin*) and I
>can't see that going down the tubes in 60 years. Not even with magic
>around.
>

I'd have to agree with lady J here. Aside from the fact that China has
an extremely rich history full of mythology, dragons, mysticism and
magic. :) It's an ancient culture that has been successfully maintained
previously under the rule of warlords with a centralised government.
Judging the country historically, and extrapoloating that intot he
future, there won't be a whole hell of a lot of difference. Aside from
which, who broke the power of communism, that still holds most of the
country in thrall?

Just a thought.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: RE> China
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:25:31 +0100
Avenger said on 1:50/ 7 May 97...

> Aside from which, who broke the power of communism, that still holds
> most of the country in thrall?

Maybe it broke itself? If you look at China now, it is some very weird
kind of communist/capitalist hybrid, at least in the major cities. The
government (mainly Deng) has kept it working until now, but I don't see
how two such wildly different ideologies (basically "divide everything
equally" against "everyone for themselves") can exist in one system for
very much longer.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: RE> Re: RE> China
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:25:31 +0100
Erik_Jameson@*****.COM said on 10:13/ 6 May 97...

> I really don't think we should take the dragon reference
> literally.

I _was_ speaking metaphorically -- I meant the (supposed) central
Chinese government could be very powerful, not that there's a dragon in
it.

> I mean, dragons supposedly control both, oh
> oops. I almost gave a huge spoiler away (that is, if you
> decide to "believe" the last few pages of the Underworld
> book).

La Venta?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: Erik_Jameson@*****.COM
Subject: RE> Re: RE> China
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:15:55 -0800
RE> Re: RE> China
To Net Enhancements for Roleplaying Shadowrun<NERPS@********.itribe.net>


China does have something of a unified, homogenous history.
Not as much as they would like us to believe, but China as a
nation has survived for at least a couple of years (*sarcasm
alert!*). However, a look at current events reveals a
growing fracture in the Chinese dragon. The southern coast
big cities have followed in the footsteps of Hong Kong,
becoming relatively modern cities with a growing capitalist
class. The northern and interior cities have not become so
glitzy or wealthy and are jealous and suspicious of the
southern cities.

So there is a growing division between the north and south,
the south and the interior, and perhaps surpisingly for a
communist country, there is a growing division between the
classes (just like in capitalism, gee!).

Looking at these factors, a fractured China ruled by feuding
warlords isn't that improbable. The way I see it, the
people in 2058 will still describe themselves as Chinese
(like I would describe myself as American, not as a racial
description). So in that way, they will still be unified.
There will just be numerous factions trying to control, and
perhaps unite, them.

Erik
Message no. 15
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: RE> China
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:15:07 +1000
> > Problem. All the other sourcebooks and novels that mention
> > China say that it has fractured and become chaotic. But the
> > Denver books contradict that. So what's up?
>
> I hate to do it but I can't help agreeing with the Denver book. China
> has a looooong history of nation-ness (is that a word? *grin*) and I
> can't see that going down the tubes in 60 years. Not even with magic
> around.
>

I'd have to agree here. Perhaps with America and Russia fragmented, the
author's saw that China was too big to leave in place without a balance,
so they fragmented it. You've gotta have a world that makes internal
sense, after all *grin*

Should I mention the fact that America (ie the Govt.) currently sees
China as the next big threat, and is (justifiably) worried about it....
This perception spills over into the (unbaised *grin*) public media, and the
result is that China is the next bogeyman. Perhaps I'm too much of a
conspiracy theorist.

Marty
Message no. 16
From: Jens Hage <jhage@**.COM>
Subject: Re: RE> China
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:44:08 -0500
On Sat, 10 May 1997, MARTIN E. GOTTHARD wrote:

> > > Problem. All the other sourcebooks and novels that mention
> > > China say that it has fractured and become chaotic. But the
> > > Denver books contradict that. So what's up?
> >
> > I hate to do it but I can't help agreeing with the Denver book. China
> > has a looooong history of nation-ness (is that a word? *grin*) and I
> > can't see that going down the tubes in 60 years. Not even with magic
> > around.

This is something that kind of surprised me. Sure, China as China has
existed for quite some time, and probably would still be around as such,
but the borders, rulers and culture within said entity has varied wildly.
Even today China has separistists and a growing disparity between north
and south. I suspect in SR it exists in the same way as the U.S. surived;
still technically there, but not the same as it used to be.

Jens "Balkanization isn't just a political movement, it's a way of life"
Hage

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about China, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!