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Message no. 1
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:28:39 +1100
> Couldn't you use some sort of Hearing amp built for the eyesof course it
>doesn't have to be the eyes, I am trying to design some sort of bioware based
>on the dolphins sonar. ( i am also designing various Electric impulse sensor
>ala shark, biolume type things, toxin strands (possibly hair) ala jelly fish,
>toxin spines ala sea anemone, and a load of other stuff....including a marine
>smartlink, the advanced SL2 with stuff for shooting into the water and out of,
>taking into account stuff like gun range and a load more stuff.)
>

I'm not quite sure if I'm too late to respond to this one, I just got out of
my exams.

Anyway, I believe that the bioware equivalent of dolphin sonar may not be
feasible. A vast majority of the dolphin cerebral surface area is dominated
by their sonar sense. This is just like those animals with sensitive
olfactory sense have a large entorrhinal and olfactory lobes - to such an
extent that their cerebrums are predominantly these lobes.

Hence, to find this amount of space in the cranium would be very difficult.
Not only so, but the nervous connections of such an "extra sense" would be
so great in the brain that the body cost would be horrendously high! (For
eg., It would probably have to connect to the corpora quadrigemina, various
brainstem nuclei (vestibular for one), as well as Broca's areas 17, 18, 19,
20, 5 and 7. Not only this, but huge sections of the internal capsule and
optic radiation would have to be enhanced and increased. Anyway, I think you
get my point.

Sorry, about the anatomical terms, just got out of my exams as I said.

Shaman

PS.I'm reading my mail out of order, so here's an extra bit!
To the person saying our limbs have to be retrained - this is true, to a
limited extent. The body and brain are suprisingly able to adapt to new
circumstances. Also, the corticospinal tracts and various tracts to and from
the cerebellum which tell the limbs what to do (other than simple reflexes)
receive input from the frontal lobes, especially the associative areas 5 and
7. So, by changing and adapting these areas, we shouldn't see any problems.

Oh, and if anyone wants any more detail than this (believe me, this is even
more brief than a synopsis) then do ask.

And another point, can everyone place an empty line before and after their
replies, it makes it so much easier to read.
>
Message no. 2
From: Glenn Robertson <Glenn.Robertson@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 07:23:36 -0700
> Anyway, I believe that the bioware equivalent of dolphin sonar may not be
> feasible. A vast majority of the dolphin cerebral surface area is dominated
> by their sonar sense. This is just like those animals with sensitive
> olfactory sense have a large entorrhinal and olfactory lobes - to such an
> extent that their cerebrums are predominantly these lobes.

Still, one must remember the state of electronics and computers for the
SR world. MUCH of that stuff could be processed down into a microimplant
easily. To support this thought, I believe in one of the online books
I saw the bat radar sense in cyberwear form. I just downloaded NAGEE 5&6,
Shadowlore, Underworld, TechSpecs, Project 3, Chromebooks, Plastic Warriors,
and Running Gear, so bear with me for forgetting the exact book I saw it in :)


Glenn
Message no. 3
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:58:49 +1100
On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Glenn Robertson wrote:
>
> Still, one must remember the state of electronics and computers for the
> SR world. MUCH of that stuff could be processed down into a microimplant
> easily. To support this thought, I believe in one of the online books
> I saw the bat radar sense in cyberwear form. I just downloaded NAGEE 5&6,
> Shadowlore, Underworld, TechSpecs, Project 3, Chromebooks, Plastic Warriors,
> and Running Gear, so bear with me for forgetting the exact book I saw it in :)
>

You have to remember that if the human brain could have been replaced by
a technological substitute, SR would have said something about it.
I have interpreted this to mean that the biological neural network is so
complex that what cyber/bioware can do to it is limited. This is
especially considering that most neural cyberware (even the tactical
computer) are not as invasive as that needed for the addition of sonar.

Also, just because something was published on the Net, doesn't make it
correct. Most Net SR material is a joke (the NERP material is an
exception). Hence to argue that cyber bat radar is already published on
the Net is meaningless. I'm arguing from an neurological and
neuroanatomical point of view, including ideas about the extent of
technology in the SR world.

Shaman

>
> Glenn
>
Message no. 4
From: Samual Basl <basl@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:37:27 -0500
On Fri, 29 Nov, Calvin Hsieh wrote:


>On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Glenn Robertson wrote:
>>
>> Still, one must remember the state of electronics and computers for the
>> SR world. MUCH of that stuff could be processed down into a microimplant
>> easily. To support this thought, I believe in one of the online books
>> I saw the bat radar sense in cyberwear form. I just downloaded NAGEE 5&6,
>> Shadowlore, Underworld, TechSpecs, Project 3, Chromebooks, Plastic Warriors,
>> and Running Gear, so bear with me for forgetting the exact book I saw it
in :)
>>
>
>You have to remember that if the human brain could have been replaced by
>a technological substitute, SR would have said something about it.
>I have interpreted this to mean that the biological neural network is so
>complex that what cyber/bioware can do to it is limited. This is
>especially considering that most neural cyberware (even the tactical
>computer) are not as invasive as that needed for the addition of sonar.
>
Just a thought, but who says the brain has to process the sonar
signal? If a directional implant were made, say in the subjects forehead,
and electronics were installed to process the information, the result could
then be outputted to a HUD in the retina of the eye, or on a cybereye. If a
ultrasound sight can be built that fits on top of a gun, one could easily
reason that by spreading the parts around a bit you could fit the whole
thing into a human head.
Of course why anyone would waste the time, money and essence to do
this is beyond me. It would probably be alot cheaper, and easier, to bolt an
ultrasound sight to your shoulder (or your body armor if you don't have a
cybertorso) and plug it into a datajack directly fed into a modified display
link. Of course if you wanna be real stingy, you could go for the goggles,
and say the hell with all this implant bs.

***BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK***
G! d--(x) s:- a18>? C++ !U L E? W N o? K? w+() !O>+ M-- V? PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-
t+ 5++ X+ R++(+) tv+ b+++ DI G e- h! r* y--(**)
***END GEEK CODE BLOCK***
Message no. 5
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:41:44 +1100
SNIP!
> Just a thought, but who says the brain has to process the sonar
> signal? If a directional implant were made, say in the subjects forehead,
> and electronics were installed to process the information, the result could
> then be outputted to a HUD in the retina of the eye, or on a cybereye. If a
> ultrasound sight can be built that fits on top of a gun, one could easily
> reason that by spreading the parts around a bit you could fit the whole
> thing into a human head.

This certainly has its merits. However, how complex (read large) must
this system be? Considering that basically this new system would in
essence be an extra sense...

I also thought that it kinda worked on a different system to ultrasound.

And besides, how much info can the retina of the eye (natural or
otherwise) handle? The person is probably getting thermo vision and flash
comp etc, so another input on ultrasound? Not to say the least that the
sonar system is unlike other senses. Consider - your vision and
accoustics are receptors. Sonar (active) requires an active ping.

> Of course why anyone would waste the time, money and essence to do
> this is beyond me. It would probably be alot cheaper, and easier, to bolt an
> ultrasound sight to your shoulder (or your body armor if you don't have a
> cybertorso) and plug it into a datajack directly fed into a modified display
> link. Of course if you wanna be real stingy, you could go for the goggles,
> and say the hell with all this implant bs.

Maybe because people love to look tres chique (damn, can't remember how
to spell it). Also because of the inconvenience of another thing sticking
out as well as the visibility of the system (kind of conspicuous don't
you think).

Shaman


>
> ***BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK***
> G! d--(x) s:- a18>? C++ !U L E? W N o? K? w+() !O>+ M-- V? PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-
> t+ 5++ X+ R++(+) tv+ b+++ DI G e- h! r* y--(**)
> ***END GEEK CODE BLOCK***
>
Message no. 6
From: Glenn Robertson <Glenn.Robertson@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:32:23 -0700
As for the neurological point of view, are you even sure it is correct?
LARGE chunks of the brain have been replaced by various parts of
cyberware. Look at a full head implant cyberdeck. It IS actual FASA
stuff, and it takes up buku space. Also, all parts of the body virtually
can be replaced, augmented, etc and all of the innervations can be
replaced. Look at the synaptic accelerators and the like. I'm NOT
saying the entire brain can be replaced. I am simply saying sonar is not
that big of a modification. Sonar isn't much different from radar
really, only thru a different medium, water as opposed to air. Look at a
fuzzbuster or even the new fuzzbuster/jammers. They are capable of
sending and receiving, and they are small now. Put in the various grades
of components and better tech available in SR, and it becomes even more
miniaturized. The brain doesn't have to process the signals, merely the
unit. It then would link and give the final results, much like head
decks, chipjacks for data chips which must be read and such, etc, etc.
The brain merely must accept the bottomline that the unit feeds it.

glenn :)
Message no. 7
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:04:53 +1100
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Glenn Robertson wrote:

> As for the neurological point of view, are you even sure it is correct?

Definitely, I'm a med person.

> LARGE chunks of the brain have been replaced by various parts of
> cyberware. Look at a full head implant cyberdeck. It IS actual FASA
> stuff, and it takes up buku space. Also, all parts of the body virtually
> can be replaced, augmented, etc and all of the innervations can be
> replaced. Look at the synaptic accelerators and the like. I'm NOT
> saying the entire brain can be replaced. I am simply saying sonar is not
> that big of a modification. Sonar isn't much different from radar
> really, only thru a different medium, water as opposed to air. Look at a
> fuzzbuster or even the new fuzzbuster/jammers. They are capable of
> sending and receiving, and they are small now.

Fuzzbusters? Explain.

Put in the various grades
> of components and better tech available in SR, and it becomes even more
> miniaturized. The brain doesn't have to process the signals, merely the
> unit. It then would link and give the final results, much like head
> decks, chipjacks for data chips which must be read and such, etc, etc.
> The brain merely must accept the bottomline that the unit feeds it.
>

My point is that the brain would have to integrate the info from the
radar/sonar unit. This will require a large amount of modifications to
the brain. It is not like linking up a cyberdeck as that just sticks into
a HUD like interface. The sonar will be associated with reflexes etc
which require alot of wiring to those parts of the brain I mentioned before.

Shaman

> glenn :)
>
Message no. 8
From: Glenn Robertson <Glenn.Robertson@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:30:49 -0700
> > LARGE chunks of the brain have been replaced by various parts of
> > cyberware. Look at a full head implant cyberdeck. It IS actual FASA
> > stuff, and it takes up buku space. Also, all parts of the body virtually
> > can be replaced, augmented, etc and all of the innervations can be
> > replaced. Look at the synaptic accelerators and the like. I'm NOT
> > saying the entire brain can be replaced. I am simply saying sonar is not
> > that big of a modification. Sonar isn't much different from radar
> > really, only thru a different medium, water as opposed to air. Look at a
> > fuzzbuster or even the new fuzzbuster/jammers. They are capable of
> > sending and receiving, and they are small now.
>
> Fuzzbusters? Explain.

Radar detectors (which would act much like sonar receivers, just a
different medium for signal transmission), and even the new Radar Jammers
which are equally small in size now and act as both receiver and sender.
With SOTA from SR and comparison to device size for higher electronic
items, the size of a dolphin sonar cyberimplant that could
send/receive/process data would be small indeed, easily implantable like
any other headware, possibly even as costly as a head radio (another
transceiver)


>
> My point is that the brain would have to integrate the info from the
> radar/sonar unit. This will require a large amount of modifications to
> the brain. It is not like linking up a cyberdeck as that just sticks into
> a HUD like interface. The sonar will be associated with reflexes etc
> which require alot of wiring to those parts of the brain I mentioned before.

Look at cyber reflexes or skillwires. They already innervate everything.
Heck, add a sonar transceiver and plug in a skillsoft for reacting and
you are good to go! Reacting to signals would have to be a skill,
representing a learned process, or simply a skillsoft, but you would
still need the micro sonar transceiver which I guess we were missing
each other's views on. I was arguing that IT was small enough to fit in
the brain, I didn't get that you were talking about the innervation
aspects and size.

Oh, and I'm a med person too. :)

Glenn
Message no. 9
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:50:13 +1100
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Glenn Robertson wrote:

> > > LARGE chunks of the brain have been replaced by various parts of
> > > cyberware. Look at a full head implant cyberdeck. It IS actual FASA
> > > stuff, and it takes up buku space. Also, all parts of the body virtually
> > > can be replaced, augmented, etc and all of the innervations can be
> > > replaced. Look at the synaptic accelerators and the like. I'm NOT
> > > saying the entire brain can be replaced. I am simply saying sonar is not
> > > that big of a modification. Sonar isn't much different from radar
> > > really, only thru a different medium, water as opposed to air. Look at a
> > > fuzzbuster or even the new fuzzbuster/jammers. They are capable of
> > > sending and receiving, and they are small now.
> >
> > Fuzzbusters? Explain.
>
> Radar detectors (which would act much like sonar receivers, just a
> different medium for signal transmission), and even the new Radar Jammers
> which are equally small in size now and act as both receiver and sender.
> With SOTA from SR and comparison to device size for higher electronic
> items, the size of a dolphin sonar cyberimplant that could
> send/receive/process data would be small indeed, easily implantable like
> any other headware, possibly even as costly as a head radio (another
> transceiver)
>
Thanks.
>
> >
> > My point is that the brain would have to integrate the info from the
> > radar/sonar unit. This will require a large amount of modifications to
> > the brain. It is not like linking up a cyberdeck as that just sticks into
> > a HUD like interface. The sonar will be associated with reflexes etc
> > which require alot of wiring to those parts of the brain I mentioned before.
>
> Look at cyber reflexes or skillwires. They already innervate everything.
> Heck, add a sonar transceiver and plug in a skillsoft for reacting and
> you are good to go! Reacting to signals would have to be a skill,
> representing a learned process, or simply a skillsoft, but you would
> still need the micro sonar transceiver which I guess we were missing
> each other's views on. I was arguing that IT was small enough to fit in
> the brain, I didn't get that you were talking about the innervation
> aspects and size.

Ah, but you have to consider the differences. For reflexes, they only
shift the reflex arc. The number of nervous tissue which has to be
adjusted as such is not as large as the senses, the visual sense being
extremely highly innervated. For example, gastrocnemius gets 1 nerve
fibre for every couple hundred to thousand muscle tissue. The occular
muscles have a ratio of 1 nerve fibre to 3 muscle fibre. I know you're
going to argue that there is no relevance to the occular muscles. The
problem is I can't remember the stats on the actual eye. But you get the
point - the eye is highly innervated, no other organ or sense can match
it in innervation.

>
> Oh, and I'm a med person too. :)

Yeah, I know.

Shaman
>
> Glenn
>
Message no. 10
From: Glenn Robertson <Glenn.Robertson@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:36:18 -0700
Ok, so I guess I am confused. For dolphin-like sonar, we need:

1) a transceiver (for sonar) with processor
2) some interface, a datalink deal to feed the output to the brain
<ping.... oh, something is over there.....>
3) if you wish to have bodily reaction to it, possibly skillwires to
allow for underwater maneuverability or something.

All of these things are possible. Why can't it work? Head radios exist,
so one that uses sonar instead of radio waves shouldn't be a problem.
Phones, radios, headcomputers, even datasofts can all display onto HUD
units and the like or stimulate the ear etc. Why can't the brain center
that orients the body in space be simply stimulated to allow for
knowledge of direction of objects in 3d space?

Glenn
Message no. 11
From: dhinkley@***.ORG
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 01:19:07 +0000
> Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:04:53 +1100
> From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
> Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar

[Snip]

> Fuzzbusters? Explain.

American Traffic Cops in most jursdiction are permitted to use a RADAR
gun (note: some are really lasers) to ascertain the speed of a
passing automobile. They then can stop and ticket anyone exceeding
the posted speed limit. As many drivers find the need to exceed the
posted speed limit a method was needed to inform them of the presence
of a operating Police RADAR. The American electronics industry stepped
up with the solution, the RADAR Detector (AKA fuzzbuster). This
device is basicly a radio reciver tuned to the frequencies used by
police RADAR with an audible alarm that goes off when a signal is
recived on one of those frequencies. As the signal can be recived at
distances greater then the RADAR unit can get a valid return. Giving
the driver to slow to an acceptable speed (note this is often not the
posted speed but rather the posted speed + the locally permited
tolerance, where I live it is five miles per hour). The units are not
infalable they tend to recive a lot of false signals in built-up
areas. In some jursdictions possesstion of or use of these devices is
against the law. And just to make things interesting the some police
agencieshave started planting radio transmitters set to RADAR gun
frequencies allong roads to trip these detectors.



David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 12
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:24:57 +1100
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Glenn Robertson wrote:

> Ok, so I guess I am confused. For dolphin-like sonar, we need:
>
> 1) a transceiver (for sonar) with processor
> 2) some interface, a datalink deal to feed the output to the brain
> <ping.... oh, something is over there.....>
> 3) if you wish to have bodily reaction to it, possibly skillwires to
> allow for underwater maneuverability or something.
>
> All of these things are possible. Why can't it work? Head radios exist,
> so one that uses sonar instead of radio waves shouldn't be a problem.
> Phones, radios, headcomputers, even datasofts can all display onto HUD
> units and the like or stimulate the ear etc. Why can't the brain center
> that orients the body in space be simply stimulated to allow for
> knowledge of direction of objects in 3d space?

I thought we were using a more significantly sophisticated system here.
Sonar detection is limited. I had the impression that dolphin sonar is
more like bat sonar, where the landscape and everything else is "seen" in
some detail.

Just a thought.

Shaman

>
> Glenn
>
Message no. 13
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dolphin Sonar
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:56:30 -0800
> Fuzzbusters? Explain.
>
> American Traffic Cops in most jursdiction are permitted to use a RADAR
> gun (note: some are really lasers) to ascertain the speed of a
> passing automobile. They then can stop and ticket anyone exceeding
> the posted speed limit. As many drivers find the need to exceed the
> posted speed limit a method was needed to inform them of the presence
> of a operating Police RADAR. The American electronics industry stepped
> up with the solution, the RADAR Detector (AKA fuzzbuster). This
> device is basicly a radio reciver tuned to the frequencies used by
> police RADAR with an audible alarm that goes off when a signal is
> recived on one of those frequencies. As the signal can be recived at
> distances greater then the RADAR unit can get a valid return. Giving
> the driver to slow to an acceptable speed (note this is often not the
> posted speed but rather the posted speed + the locally permited
> tolerance, where I live it is five miles per hour). The units are not
> infalable they tend to recive a lot of false signals in built-up
> areas. In some jursdictions possesstion of or use of these devices is
> against the law. And just to make things interesting the some police
> agencieshave started planting radio transmitters set to RADAR gun
> frequencies allong roads to trip these detectors.
>
>
>
> David Hinkley
> dhinkley@***.org
>

'Course, thats why they have now started phasing in Laser Speed Detectors...
~Tim

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