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Message no. 1
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:27:21 +1000
> How can you say that America got left with the best vision
> of the future from FASA? Or that it is the only remaining
> superpower in 2057? I was downright pissed to see how the
> US had fragmented, how pitifully inneffectual it had become
> and how much less of a world power it had become.

You know, this is probably going to annoy you greatly, but it gratified
me immensely to see America taken down a peg or two. Pitifully
ineffectual pleases me greatly, and makes a lot of sense Take a look at
any of these examples relating to current world culture and power dominance;

-The USSR at the moment
-Germany immediately after either of the world wars
-Britain for the last one hundred years
-France for the last two hundred years
-Portugal for the last three hundred year
-The Vikings for the last 1000 years
-The Egyptian for the last two millenia

All of these cultures ruled what was considered their world at one time
or another, or at least had a big part in fighting over it. Now they are
bit players in the scheme of things, with the exception of Germany.

There are plenty of other examples I could use, but I'd bore you stupid.
What makes you so god-damned sure that America will still be a world
power in twenty years, let alone sixty?

No culture stay on top of pile for ever, and historically the rate of
turnover of dominance has been increasing (related to population growth
throughout the ages) What happens when China starts to industrialise,
or When India manages to do something about their underclass? God forbid.

Even further in the future, what happens when Africa gets to the top of the
pile? By that time they'll have increased their population relative to
yours by a factor of ten. With that kind of population, they don't even
have to reach the 'top'... Force of numbers will take care of it.

The general egocentricity of believing that America will still be in
command is unbelievable..... I'm not even accounting for the destructive
events in the world timeline. Those kind of global catastrophes tend to
hurt those at the top the most.

You may not know it, but America has quite a bad reputation worldwide,
not the least because you are so righteous about how fantastic your own
country is and how the rest of the world are second class countries.
It's not something you decry loudly, but it shows in your cultures general
arrogance, intolerance and ignorance of other cultures.

(Please do keep in mind that I said your culture, not you personally)

It's a standing joke that if you want to survive as a tourist, you don't
carry an American passport; They make the best hostages, and no-one
cares if you kill one or a dozen.... With the exception of that great holy
avenger America.

My advice regarding the fragmentation of America; Deal with it.

> Basically, FASA has set things up so that no one government
> fits the 1980s description of a superpower, ala USA or USSR.
> The Big 8 megacorps run roughshod over everyone.
> Governments, while many still retain a lot of power and
> influence, are nowhere near what they are in 1996.
>
Which is something that I agree with totally..... the Big Eight won't
stay at the top for ever either, not least of which due to the
reallocation of shares due to Dunzlezahn's death.


Enjoy.

Bleach
Message no. 2
From: Jens Hage <jhage@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:49:04 -0600
On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Marty wrote:

> > How can you say that America got left with the best vision
> > of the future from FASA? Or that it is the only remaining
> > superpower in 2057? I was downright pissed to see how the
> > US had fragmented, how pitifully inneffectual it had become
> > and how much less of a world power it had become.
>
> You know, this is probably going to annoy you greatly, but it gratified
> me immensely to see America taken down a peg or two. Pitifully
> ineffectual pleases me greatly, and makes a lot of sense Take a look at
> any of these examples relating to current world culture and power dominance;
>
> -The USSR at the moment

Lost an nasty economic/low level war.

> -Germany immediately after either of the world wars

Industry and political systems nuked after each.

> -Britain for the last one hundred years

Losing a good hunk of it's population in both of them and taking extreme
strains in fighting two World Wars (the Japanese messed up the Britich
Empire something fierce)

> -France for the last two hundred years

Actualy France didn't really leave the scene until after WWI IIRC, and
didn't truly leave until after WWII.

> -Portugal for the last three hundred year

IIRC, Spain whopped them in the New World.

> -The Vikings for the last 1000 years

Had a brief resurgance with a nasty little Swedish empire in the (1500's?)

> -The Egyptian for the last two millenia

Got whacked by several different, up and coming civilizations. Interesting
note: Egypt was the site of a new Islamic dynasty for a while.

> All of these cultures ruled what was considered their world at one time
> or another, or at least had a big part in fighting over it. Now they are
> bit players in the scheme of things, with the exception of Germany.

It also helps (historically at least) that most, if not all of those lost
some sort of war immediately prior to leaving the world stage. In the FASA
timeline, and, indeed, following the examples of war that seem to be more
common today, I do -not- foresee a large enough war to put the U.S.
economy in peril.

> There are plenty of other examples I could use, but I'd bore you stupid.
> What makes you so god-damned sure that America will still be a world
> power in twenty years, let alone sixty?

Nothing aside from basic arrogance, which is not an exclusively American
trait I might add.

> No culture stay on top of pile for ever, and historically the rate of
> turnover of dominance has been increasing (related to population growth
> throughout the ages) What happens when China starts to industrialise,
> or When India manages to do something about their underclass? God forbid.
>
> Even further in the future, what happens when Africa gets to the top of the
> pile? By that time they'll have increased their population relative to
> yours by a factor of ten. With that kind of population, they don't even
> have to reach the 'top'... Force of numbers will take care of it.

-This- one I feel informed enough to comment on: Central Africa at least,
is in -deep- drek; AIDS is pandemic, and while a natural immunity probably
will spring up there first, it's still going to rip holy drek out of a
generation (I think; this is of course open to debate). If "force of
numbers" was an issue, the British empire never would have gotten past the
islands, IMHO. India seems to be a wonderful counterexample. Also take
into account the brain drain, effects of colonialism, corruption, debt,
and frequent tribalistion.

> The general egocentricity of believing that America will still be in
> command is unbelievable..... I'm not even accounting for the destructive
> events in the world timeline. Those kind of global catastrophes tend to
> hurt those at the top the most.

I've yet to see America (or the UCAS) at the top of any SR heap. CAS, Cal
Free, the Tirs (both of 'em), Aztlan, all would like to talk to you about
that UCAS dominance. Relative to overseas (Europe, Asia and Africa
especially) there's no inclination that the UCAS does any weight throwing
in 2057. We've got Japanese troops in San Fran, and absolutely no mention
that I know of of American adventurism (see Grenada, Panama, etc.)

> You may not know it, but America has quite a bad reputation worldwide,
> not the least because you are so righteous about how fantastic your own
> country is and how the rest of the world are second class countries.
> It's not something you decry loudly, but it shows in your cultures general
> arrogance, intolerance and ignorance of other cultures.
>
> (Please do keep in mind that I said your culture, not you personally)

(Side note: I think you read too many of those "U.S. #1 LOSERS!!!!
threads. :)

Yeah, and that arrogance is (possibly) a result of European arrogance back
in the 1800's. And heck, still today, we put up with a general attitude
from the rest of the world similiar to your attitude (culturally
speaking). Why shouldn't we be defensive?

> It's a standing joke that if you want to survive as a tourist, you don't
> carry an American passport; They make the best hostages, and no-one
> cares if you kill one or a dozen.... With the exception of that great holy
> avenger America.
>
> My advice regarding the fragmentation of America; Deal with it.

Heck, I like it. But the "Ignorant American" sterotype is getting old, and
has been for a while. While I'm no defender of real "american tourists" I
don't really think there are so many as to perpetuate the stereotype. (Not
like I -know- of course.)

> >Basically, FASA has set things up so that no one government
> > fits the 1980s description of a superpower, ala USA or USSR.
> > The Big 8 megacorps run roughshod over everyone.
> > Governments, while many still retain a lot of power and
> > influence, are nowhere near what they are in 1996.
> >
> Which is something that I agree with totally..... the Big Eight won't
> stay at the top for ever either, not least of which due to the
> reallocation of shares due to Dunzlezahn's death.

Heck, Yamatetsu (IIRC) showed that back in '41. If the NeoA's get their
way, it'll be damn soon. :)

Jens "American apologist" Hage
Message no. 3
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 16:25:54 +1000
Apologies for boring all of you stupid with this thread.

> > All of these cultures ruled what was considered their world at one time
> > or another, or at least had a big part in fighting over it. Now they are
> > bit players in the scheme of things, with the exception of Germany.
>
> It also helps (historically at least) that most, if not all of those lost
> some sort of war immediately prior to leaving the world stage. In the FASA
> timeline, and, indeed, following the examples of war that seem to be more
> common today, I do -not- foresee a large enough war to put the U.S.
> economy in peril.
>

You mentioned the USSR in your reply. They did not technically lose any
war. They suffered from being unable to effectively compete with the USA
due to their style of Government. Competition is what it's all about
these days. Right now, Japan is seriously cutting into world markets ad
controlling them.... gives America serious competition.

Commercial might is always more important than military might; Witness
the Dutch East India company; They ran most of South East Asia and India
through commercial 'string pulling'.

It doesn't take a war to put an economy in peril. Natural disasters can
do it, like the flurry of Hurricanes and storms that America has suffered
in the past few years. What happens to the world market if Tokyo gets
flattened by an 8.5 Earthquake?? I can guarantee you that the recession
that would spark off would pull down much of the world with it.


> > No culture stay on top of pile for ever, and historically the rate of
> > turnover of dominance has been increasing (related to population growth
> > throughout the ages) What happens when China starts to industrialise,
> > or When India manages to do something about their underclass? God forbid.
> >
> > Even further in the future, what happens when Africa gets to the top of the
> > pile? By that time they'll have increased their population relative to
> > yours by a factor of ten. With that kind of population, they don't even
> > have to reach the 'top'... Force of numbers will take care of it.
>
> -This- one I feel informed enough to comment on: Central Africa at least,
> is in -deep- drek; AIDS is pandemic, and while a natural immunity probably
> will spring up there first, it's still going to rip holy drek out of a
> generation (I think; this is of course open to debate). If "force of
> numbers" was an issue, the British empire never would have gotten past the
> islands, IMHO. India seems to be a wonderful counterexample. Also take
> into account the brain drain, effects of colonialism, corruption, debt,
> and frequent tribalistion.
>
Blah blah. As a counter example, witness Japan in the late part of last
century. They had absulutely no blue water navy to speak of, and within
50 years they had assembled the naval force capable of attacking Pearl
Harbour.

> > The general egocentricity of believing that America will still be in
> > command is unbelievable..... I'm not even accounting for the destructive
> > events in the world timeline. Those kind of global catastrophes tend to
> > hurt those at the top the most.
>
> I've yet to see America (or the UCAS) at the top of any SR heap. CAS, Cal
> Free, the Tirs (both of 'em), Aztlan, all would like to talk to you about
> that UCAS dominance. Relative to overseas (Europe, Asia and Africa
> especially) there's no inclination that the UCAS does any weight throwing
> in 2057. We've got Japanese troops in San Fran, and absolutely no mention
> that I know of of American adventurism (see Grenada, Panama, etc.)
>
That's what the original poster was whinging about. I personally don't
see any problem with the schism of America into component parts.... but
he did.


> > You may not know it, but America has quite a bad reputation worldwide,
> > not the least because you are so righteous about how fantastic your own
> > country is and how the rest of the world are second class countries.
> > It's not something you decry loudly, but it shows in your cultures general
> > arrogance, intolerance and ignorance of other cultures.
> >
> > (Please do keep in mind that I said your culture, not you personally)
>
> (Side note: I think you read too many of those "U.S. #1 LOSERS!!!!
> threads. :)
>
Don't read them at all; I base my beliefs on a long and intimate
knowledge of American cultural exchange students, and general observation of
the behaviour of American tourists.


> > My advice regarding the fragmentation of America; Deal with it.
>
> Heck, I like it. But the "Ignorant American" sterotype is getting old, and
> has been for a while. While I'm no defender of real "american tourists" I
> don't really think there are so many as to perpetuate the stereotype. (Not
> like I -know- of course.)
>
It's still often a true stereotype, though; apparently a significant
number of high school grads in America, when asked where the Nile was,
stated that it defined the border between Canada and the US.


Hell, I'm quite happy to leave this thread here. I've stated my views,
you've stated yours. May we call a truce?
Message no. 4
From: Jens Hage <jhage@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 02:14:07 -0600
On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Marty wrote:

> Apologies for boring all of you stupid with this thread.
>
> > > All of these cultures ruled what was considered their world at one time
> > > or another, or at least had a big part in fighting over it. Now they are
> > > bit players in the scheme of things, with the exception of Germany.
> >
> > It also helps (historically at least) that most, if not all of those lost
> > some sort of war immediately prior to leaving the world stage. In the FASA
> > timeline, and, indeed, following the examples of war that seem to be more
> > common today, I do -not- foresee a large enough war to put the U.S.
> > economy in peril.
> >
>
> You mentioned the USSR in your reply. They did not technically lose any
> war. They suffered from being unable to effectively compete with the USA
> due to their style of Government. Competition is what it's all about
> these days. Right now, Japan is seriously cutting into world markets ad
> controlling them.... gives America serious competition.

Note here: The current "trade war" is company versus company, with minimal
(well, depends on the current idustrial situation) goverentment
involvement, especially in capital. The U.S./U.S.S.R. economic war (I call
it that at least) was much more heavily concerned with governmental
spending. GM may be important to the country as a whole, but it was
military spending (and also a couple of things like Afghanistan) that hurt
the most, not the industrial competition.

> It doesn't take a war to put an economy in peril. Natural disasters can
> do it, like the flurry of Hurricanes and storms that America has suffered
> in the past few years. What happens to the world market if Tokyo gets
> flattened by an 8.5 Earthquake?? I can guarantee you that the recession
> that would spark off would pull down much of the world with it.

I really don't see the impact of the hurricanes on the U.S. economy, but
maybe I'm not looking closely enough. As for Tokyo, I really would
disagree. Things are too diffuce, too intertwined for one city to control
the global economy that much.

> > > No culture stay on top of pile for ever, and historically the rate of
> > > turnover of dominance has been increasing (related to population growth
> > > throughout the ages) What happens when China starts to industrialise,
> > > or When India manages to do something about their underclass? God forbid.
> > >
> > > Even further in the future, what happens when Africa gets to the top of the
> > > pile? By that time they'll have increased their population relative to
> > > yours by a factor of ten. With that kind of population, they don't even
> > > have to reach the 'top'... Force of numbers will take care of it.
> >
> > -This- one I feel informed enough to comment on: Central Africa at least,
> > is in -deep- drek; AIDS is pandemic, and while a natural immunity probably
> > will spring up there first, it's still going to rip holy drek out of a
> > generation (I think; this is of course open to debate). If "force of
> > numbers" was an issue, the British empire never would have gotten past the
> > islands, IMHO. India seems to be a wonderful counterexample. Also take
> > into account the brain drain, effects of colonialism, corruption, debt,
> > and frequent tribalistion.
> >
> Blah blah. As a counter example, witness Japan in the late part of last
> century. They had absulutely no blue water navy to speak of, and within
> 50 years they had assembled the naval force capable of attacking Pearl
> Harbour.

Japan was in no way colonized. So comparing a country not crippled by the
economic principals of Imperialism to ones that were is a bit of a stretch
for me.

> > > The general egocentricity of believing that America will still be in
> > > command is unbelievable..... I'm not even accounting for the destructive
> > > events in the world timeline. Those kind of global catastrophes tend to
> > > hurt those at the top the most.
> >
> > I've yet to see America (or the UCAS) at the top of any SR heap. CAS, Cal
> > Free, the Tirs (both of 'em), Aztlan, all would like to talk to you about
> > that UCAS dominance. Relative to overseas (Europe, Asia and Africa
> > especially) there's no inclination that the UCAS does any weight throwing
> > in 2057. We've got Japanese troops in San Fran, and absolutely no mention
> > that I know of of American adventurism (see Grenada, Panama, etc.)
> >
> That's what the original poster was whinging about. I personally don't
> see any problem with the schism of America into component parts.... but
> he did.

His problem then. :)

> > > You may not know it, but America has quite a bad reputation worldwide,
> > > not the least because you are so righteous about how fantastic your own
> > > country is and how the rest of the world are second class countries.
> > > It's not something you decry loudly, but it shows in your cultures general
> > > arrogance, intolerance and ignorance of other cultures.
> > >
> > > (Please do keep in mind that I said your culture, not you personally)
> >
> > (Side note: I think you read too many of those "U.S. #1 LOSERS!!!!
> > threads. :)
> >
> Don't read them at all; I base my beliefs on a long and intimate
> knowledge of American cultural exchange students, and general observation of
> the behaviour of American tourists.

Ah well, maybe the smart ones don't get noticed. :)

> > > My advice regarding the fragmentation of America; Deal with it.
> >
> > Heck, I like it. But the "Ignorant American" sterotype is getting old,
and
> > has been for a while. While I'm no defender of real "american
tourists" I
> > don't really think there are so many as to perpetuate the stereotype. (Not
> > like I -know- of course.)
> >
> It's still often a true stereotype, though; apparently a significant
> number of high school grads in America, when asked where the Nile was,
> stated that it defined the border between Canada and the US.

I missed that one. Did you perhaps mean the border between the U.S. and
Mexico instead?

> Hell, I'm quite happy to leave this thread here. I've stated my views,
> you've stated yours. May we call a truce?

Sure thing. As for America breaking up, no problem. As for it collapsing
completely, I don't and wouldn't buy that. Simple and plain and I'll stop
doing my history freak thing in plain view and spooking the horses and
upsetting the womenfolk.

Jens "Almost a history major" Hage
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:50:44 +0100
Jens Hage said on 2:14/ 9 Nov 96...

(Before I forget, could you please trim your replies a bit? It makes them
a lot easier to read.)

> I really don't see the impact of the hurricanes on the U.S. economy, but
> maybe I'm not looking closely enough. As for Tokyo, I really would
> disagree. Things are too diffuce, too intertwined for one city to control
> the global economy that much.

Although I'm not anything even close to an economist, I think you're wrong
here... The stock market is one weird place, and one big earthquake in
Tokyo definitely could kill off most of the world's economy simply because
stock brokers panic and start selling. Once you have one person selling
like mad, others may follow leading to quick devaluation of just about
everything.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't be stupid, Beavis. There's always been TV; there's just more
channels now.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: "Paolo Falco, FoxMaster" <Falco@****.IT>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 15:05:14 +0000
Jens Hage this did say to a FoxMaster about Re: Flame re; FASA world
view...

> > Don't read them at all; I base my beliefs on a long and intimate
> > knowledge of American cultural exchange students, and general
> > observation of the behaviour of American tourists.
>
> Ah well, maybe the smart ones don't get noticed. :)
>
> > > Heck, I like it. But the "Ignorant American" sterotype is
> > > getting old,
> >
> > It's still often a true stereotype, though; apparently a
> > significant number of high school grads in America, when asked
> > where the Nile was, stated that it defined the border between
> > Canada and the US.
>
> I missed that one. Did you perhaps mean the border between the U.S.
> and Mexico instead?

It's too easy, TOO GODDAMN EASY.... I gotta resist, resist, resist!
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

(Paolo Falco, in one of his really GOOD days :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
pAoLo FaLco | "Casual match in a very fry field fire and ash
(a FoxMaster) | is the season's yield" (Suzanne Vega)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2717
Paradoxal Skating page for Gamers with AnarcoLemming view on life
Message no. 7
From: GKoth2258@***.COM
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 14:32:03 -0500
Somehow my corporate mailer destroyed or delayed my original response to this
thread, so you'll get the shortened version here.

I demand an apology from Bleach. I was merely making several statements. 1)
That the US _did_ get a raw deal from FASA, just like almost every other
nation. The US isn't a superpower in 2057 as some would claim. 2) I
personally didn't like it (I have never made any statements on if I agreed or
not). 3) That was it.

But somehow that message was lost and turned into an ignorant American
imperialist dogmatic statement. WHICH IT WASN'T!!! If you had bothered to
look past the fact I didn't like what FASA had done, you would have noticed
that. Instead, you took the opportunity to run off at the keyboard at me.

Again, I demand a public apology on this list for misrepresenting what I
said. You can have your opinions, I can have mine. But to twist what _I_
said into what you _claim_ I said, well, that's something else entirely.

Erik
Message no. 8
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 22:31:58 UT
>Somehow my corporate mailer destroyed or delayed my original response to this
>thread, so you'll get the shortened version here.
>
>I demand an apology from Bleach. I was merely making several statements. 1)
>That the US _did_ get a raw deal from FASA, just like almost every other
>nation. The US isn't a superpower in 2057 as some would claim. 2) I
>personally didn't like it (I have never made any statements on if I agreed or
>not). 3) That was it.
>
>But somehow that message was lost and turned into an ignorant American
>imperialist dogmatic statement. WHICH IT WASN'T!!! If you had bothered to
>look past the fact I didn't like what FASA had done, you would have noticed
>that. Instead, you took the opportunity to run off at the keyboard at me.
>
>Again, I demand a public apology on this list for misrepresenting what I
>said. You can have your opinions, I can have mine. But to twist what _I_
>said into what you _claim_ I said, well, that's something else entirely.
>
>Erik
errr somethhing completely different, around the claim and I (above) appears _
's now that might not come out right ,but it was an under bar, was it ment to
be one of those superscript double dash's or what?
Tim (not the other one)
Message no. 9
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:36:40 +1000
> I demand an apology from Bleach.

Demand? Request instead, maybe.
Demand ingored.

> Again, I demand a public apology on this list for misrepresenting what I
> said. You can have your opinions, I can have mine. But to twist what _I_
> said into what you _claim_ I said, well, that's something else entirely.
>
Bite me. If you can't take a flame of the literary rather than outright
abusive variety, then you should...well, I don't know what you should do.....
Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech; Your first amendment takes
care of that.

Ciao.

Bleach
Message no. 10
From: GKoth2258@***.COM
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 14:08:23 -0500
Yes, my first amendment right allows me to say what I want. But we also have
laws either preventing or punishing individuals who slander and libelm which
are in NO WAY covered by any amendment. That is what you did Bleach. You
libeled me. You took what I wrote and twisted it horribly around. I feel I
have every right to demand an apology for libel. Flame all you want. I've
seen and been a part of some evil flame wars over on RN (I'm sure Gurth can
remember) and I'm still standing. But libel? Again, that's something else
entirely.

Erik
Message no. 11
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:07:23 +1000
> Yes, my first amendment right allows me to say what I want. But we also have
> laws either preventing or punishing individuals who slander and libelm which
> are in NO WAY covered by any amendment. That is what you did Bleach. You
> libeled me. You took what I wrote and twisted it horribly around. I feel I
> have every right to demand an apology for libel.

Please define Libel; I can't be bothered looking it up in a dictionary.

I can't beleive I can cut someone *so* badly with one post.
I you could just see me now; I'm chuckling quite happily. *grin*

How about you just give it a rest? I'll shut up if you will. I'll tell
you though; I do not believe I owe you any apology. I happen to believe
what I wrote, and even though it was not aimed at *you* specifically, how
you choose to interpret it is your business.

So tell me, are *you* allowed more freedom of speech than I am? If it
cuts you so badly, 'libel' me back...
Message no. 12
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 01:06:48 -0500
Bleach, Erik... I'm sorry to say, but this should have become private
e-mail about 5 or 6 message ago...

Steve (Bull)


=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You could use a good Kiss!"
-Han Solo, "Star Wars"
<a corrected quote>

Further Reading

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Thwap!