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Message no. 1
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: My wave book so far....
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:24:19 UT
NAGTTW
My Wave Book so Far
Tim Coxon
Coxoff@***.com
--------
Okay hello I have done a little work on the wave book things... I would like
some feedback on what I have so far as I don't want to do the whole lot and
everyone thinks it is a loada crud. The first few entries are from the various
nerps books before. I have tried to get the layout right (saves work for
Gurth) The idea's I have had are only prelimes. Fell free to add your own....
I kinda fizzled near the end so I just have the names for the items, stats for
them would be good.

Web Foot Legal
Extends thin webs from either side of foot, as well as webs between toes.

Essence Cost Availability Cost Street Index
0 4/5 days 20,000¥ 1
Doubles normal swimming speed, plus adds one die to Swimming skill.

Independant Air Supply Legal
A small artificial organ, filled with a spongy, oxygen fixing foam. Implanted
in the lower lungs, it doubles the time a person can hold his breath.

Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
.7 4/7 days 50,000¥ 1
Can be combined with the Extended Volume modification (p.31, Shadowtech), but
the Extended Volume modifiers are applied after those for the Independant Air
Supply: a character with a Body of 4, an Independant Air Supply, and Extended
Volume level 2 can hold his breath for 4 x 30 x 2 + 90 = 230 seconds.

Air Breathing Gurth
This spell allows creatures that normally live under water and cannot breathe
air (such as fish, but not dolphins) to breathe and survive when not under
water. The subject can still breathe under water. This spell requires a
voluntary subject.
Type: Physical Range: Limited Target: 4
Duration: Sustained Drain: [(F/2)+2]L

>>>>>[Who designed this one? A
merrow?]<<<<<
—Texan (04:37:56/06-24-55)

CONGEN "SEABREATH" SECONDARY GILLS LEGAL
The burgeoning oceanic population has created an intense demand for workers
capable of long term work at moderate underwater depths. Now ConGen debuts the
answer: the Seabreath respiratory rebuild. Our unique osmotic membranes are
installed in flow channels located in slits between the ribs to maximize gas
exchange with water passing through the mouth. By slightly reducing your
excess lung capacity, and installing a secondary tracheal valve, we make it a
simple matter to switch from breathing air to dwelling in the watery home of
our ancient ancestors. After installing Seabreath we guarantee that whole new
areas of underwater employment will open up to you or we'll refund your money!
Take the first step towards a bright future today—call today to schedule your
Seabreath rebuild.

Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
2 8/8 days 30,000¥ 1

The user can breathe indefinitely in oxygenated water. The large absorption
area of the gills make subjects with this modification especially vulnerable
to airborne toxins (+3 target number to Resistance Tests), and the delicate
tissues of the gills are sensitive to damage (additional Light Wound from any
blow to the torso for shock to the structure, gamemaster's discretion).

SHUKUTEI BIOMED "PHIBIA" AQUATIC WEBBING LEGAL
Return to your ancestral home in style! Our new webbing rebuilds let you move
through the water with the greatest of ease—and with a speed that would put an
unmodified Olympic swimmer to shame. Custom designed bone and skin lines are
used to elongate your digits and create a froglike membrane of skin between
them. See ya' at the beach!

Level Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
1 .6 4/5 days 5,000¥ 1
2 1.2 5/5 days 8,000¥ 1.25

With level 1, your hands are webbed. See the rules on page 77 of Fields of
Fire for swimming, but divide by 3 instead of 4.
Level 2 is a rebuild of hands and feet. Divide the swimming distance by 2
instead of 4.
Either level gives a –1 target number for the purposes of manipulation.

>>>>>(Erm, yeah. Whatever you say.)<<<<<
— Polly (07:34:20/10-19-55)


Stuff that I thought of:

LIQUID LUNG LEGAL
This external device is connected to the users back. A small port in the user
back connect directly into the users Cardio-vascular system. The system run on
Oxygenated Fluoro-Carbons (the user needs to have had his blood replaced by
OFCE) This O2/CO2 transfer system has a hundred % efficiency. So you can stay
down for longer, and because you aren't breathing air it allows you to go as
deep as you want.


Cost Street Index
OFCE 750/litre
External connection 500
Internal Port 1000



WET SUIT LEGAL
This is your standard wet suit available In most Colours and Styles.
Conceal Ballistic. Impact Cost Availability Street Index
Full - 0 1 100 Always .9
Torso - 0 0 75 Always .9

DRY SUIT LEGAL
This is your standard dry suit available in most Colours and Styles.
Conceal Ballistic. Impact Cost Availability Street Index
Full - 0 1 200 Always 1
Torso - 0 0 150 Always 1

HARD CASE DEEPSEA LEGAL
This is the latest design in deep sea diving equipment based on the Esprit
military Armour, It has a lower operating deck of ******meters.
Conceal Weight Ballistic. Impact Cost Availability Street Index
Air - 12+Body 7 10 700 4/4 days 1.5
OFCE - 20+Body 7 10 2000 6/6 days 2

forearm util device
Tools
Battle Tac
CyberDeck
Computer
Comm device
Oxygen tanks
Small
Large
Oxyflourocarbons emulsion tanks
Small
Large
Weapons
Harpoon pistols


Name Conceal Range Ammo Mode Damage Weight Avail. Cost Index
Ares 5 Heavy Pistol 10(c) SA 8M 3 500 1
Colt 5 Hold out 12(c) SA 8M 3.25 600 1.25
Saeder-Krupp 4 Hold out 10(c) SA 9M 3.25 575
1.4
Telestrian 4 Shotgun 2(break) SS 10M 2.5 450 .9
Harpoon rifle
Ares
Colt
Armtech
Torpedo launcher
Saeder-Krupp
Ares
Harpoon
Cougar
Ares
Diving knife
Cougar
Ares
Flares
Particle grenades
HydroPhonicShock Grenade
Drones of various sorts
LockHeed
Ares
Mct-Nissan
Small Subs
Medium Subs
Large Subs
Rigs
Dingy
Depth Charge
Speed Boats
Cruisers
Message no. 2
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:55:23 +1000
[snip preliminaries]

Ummm, guys this is starting to sound a little bit like XCOM 2, Terror from=

the Deep. Especially all the Harpoon Launchers and Man-Portable Torpedo
launhers. Also, is there really the point to define so many different
brands of the same gun???

You've got to remember that you can't hit what you can't see.
Visibilities in most oceans range from 10 to 40 meters (If you're really
lucky). After that particulate matter and absorption bleeds out too much=

colour and intensity.

You can extend the range beyond visual with Battletac systems and
Ultrasound equipment (ie man-portable sonar), but the density of water
tends to limit the speed and range of most projectiles. I don't want to
be the one guessing the ranges you could use.

[more snipping]


> Air Breathing Gurth
> This spell allows creatures that normally live under water and cannot bre=
athe
> air (such as fish, but not dolphins) to breathe and survive when not unde=
r
> water. The subject can still breathe under water. This spell requires a
> voluntary subject.
> Type: Physical Range: Limited Target: 4
> Duration: Sustained Drain: [(F/2)+2]L
>
> >>>>>[Who designed this one? A
merrow?]<<<<<
> —Texan (04:37:56/06-24-55)
>
The problem is that most creatures that have re-adapted to living in the
ocean (or never left it in the first place) have no land based movement
capability....The analogy "Like a fish out of water" springs to mind.

It's definitely a spell limited to usefullness among awakened oceanic biped=
s.


> CONGEN "SEABREATH" SECONDARY GILLS LEGAL
>
> Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
> 2 8/8 days 30,000¥ 1
>
I'd personally decrease the body cost on this item, and most of the other=

items you've described. They cost so much that you have to specialise in=

underwater ops, because unless you're a troll you can't fit enough other
stuff to make it worthwhile.

If you want to run an entire underwater campaign, then it's cool.... But
shadowrunners generally can't afford to blow 2 body points on a set of
gills which they'll rarely use.

If I recall correctly, a variant on the cyberware air filter out of the
basic SR rules took care of the artifical gills line, anyway.


> SHUKUTEI BIOMED "PHIBIA" AQUATIC WEBBING LEGAL
[snip]
> Level Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
> 1 .6 4/5 days 5,000¥ 1
> 2 1.2 5/5 days 8,000¥ 1.25
>
Ummm, 1.2 body cost for the biological equivalent of spurs and hand
razors. (As far as the mod.... process goes anyway)
??? A bit expensive.


> LIQUID LUNG LEGAL
> This external device is connected to the users back. A small port in the =
user
> back connect directly into the users Cardio-vascular system. The system r=
un on
> Oxygenated Fluoro-Carbons (the user needs to have had his blood replaced =
by
> OFCE) This O2/CO2 transfer system has a hundred % efficiency. So you can =
stay
> down for longer, and because you aren't breathing air it allows you to go=
as
> deep as you want.
>
I doubt you can improve radically on the haemoglobin system using a
simple chemical blood replacement. That's just reality intruding
though....

You'd get more efficiency improvement out of the oxygenated fluid
recirculation sytem (ie you breathe water) that has been recently
developed..... No need for ultra-compressed gases and the associated
waste with exhaled breath.

It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a
mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it
was fine.

[snip]


> HARD CASE DEEPSEA LEGAL
> This is the latest design in deep sea diving equipment based on the Espri=
t
> military Armour, It has a lower operating deck of ******meters.
> Conceal Weight Ballistic. Impact Cost Availability S=
treet Index
> Air - 12+Body 7 10 700 4/4 days 1.5
> OFCE - 20+Body 7 10 2000 6/6 days 2
>
> forearm util device
> Tools
> Battle Tac
> CyberDeck
> Computer
> Comm device
>
Ummm, more XCOM anybody???

Most normal impact armours would be directly translatable to undersea
operations. THere should be partially plated armours using kevlar/cermaic=

weaves and other similar things.... No need to get into heavy military
rated equipment.

Ballistic armour would be less important underwater, because nothing
would get the necessary speed up. Impact armour would be everything.
Even harpoons would use similar rules to arrows.

[snip again]


> Torpedo launcher
> Saeder-Krupp
>
If these have to exist, I suggest making them equivalent weight and size
to a generic missile launcher.


> Particle grenades

???? What kind of particles?


> HydroPhonicShock Grenade

That's a depth charge..... unless someone can come up with a different
explanation.


> Drones of various sorts
> LockHeed
> Ares
> Mct-Nissan

This is where the real action would be..... Micro submersibles, smart guide=
d
torpedos, Sub launched aircraft drones (adapted from today SLCM's -sub
launched cruise missiles), etc.

[snip]


> Depth Charge

Can't swim fast enough to avoid them...... I don't want to be a fish next=

to a stick of dynamite thankyou.... I'd include them in the equipment
list, but I'd rate them as security and military equipment only.

Also, they are of limited use except as a measure to take out intruders
that are underwater when you are not. You can't project them far enough
to avoid getting chundered by the blast if you're underwater. The same
goes for grenades.



If someone wants to clone XCOM, it's their own business but surely we can=

do better than that? Use it more ideas, and pluck the ones you like, but=

don't take it *all* just because it was a good game; It won't translate.


Don't take any of this too badly, please. It's what I consider constructiv=
e
criticism, and I'm open to conversion attempts.


Good luck.

Bleach
Message no. 3
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:06:26 -0800
> Web Foot Legal
> Extends thin webs from either side of foot, as well as webs between =
toes.
>
> Essence Cost Availability Cost Street Index
> 0 4/5 days 20,000¥ 1
> Doubles normal swimming speed, plus adds one die to Swimming skill.
>
vs.


> SHUKUTEI BIOMED "PHIBIA" AQUATIC WEBBING LEGAL
> Return to your ancestral home in style! Our new webbing rebuilds let =
you move
> through the water with the greatest of ease—and with a speed that =
would put an
> unmodified Olympic swimmer to shame. Custom designed bone and skin =
lines are
> used to elongate your digits and create a froglike membrane of skin =
between
> them. See ya' at the beach!
> Level Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
> 1 .6 4/5 days 5,000¥ 1
> 2 1.2 5/5 days 8,000¥ 1.25
>
> With level 1, your hands are webbed. See the rules on page 77 of =
Fields of
> Fire for swimming, but divide by 3 instead of 4.
> Level 2 is a rebuild of hands and feet. Divide the swimming distance =
by 2
> instead of 4.
> Either level gives a –1 target number for the purposes of =
manipulation.
>
> >>>>>(Erm, yeah. Whatever you say.)<<<<<
> — Polly (07:34:20/10-19-55)
>

I understand one is a cyber version while the other is bio, but..don't =
they both do
effectively the same thing? Why not use the same rules for them? Also =
can you explain
the incredible price and body/essence cost differences? Seems a bit =
excessive.

[next post - regarding last post]

>> LIQUID LUNG LEGAL
>> This external device is connected to the users back. A small port in =
the user
>> back connect directly into the users Cardio-vascular system. The =
system run on
>> Oxygenated Fluoro-Carbons (the user needs to have had his blood =
replaced by
>> OFCE) This O2/CO2 transfer system has a hundred % efficiency. So you =
can stay
>> down for longer, and because you aren't breathing air it allows you =
to go as
>> deep as you want.
>>
>I doubt you can improve radically on the haemoglobin system using a
>simple chemical blood replacement. That's just reality intruding
>though....
>
>You'd get more efficiency improvement out of the oxygenated fluid
>recirculation sytem (ie you breathe water) that has been recently
>developed..... No need for ultra-compressed gases and the associated
>waste with exhaled breath.
>
>It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a =

>mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it =

>was fine.

You know, the pink stuff used in "The Abyss"...works for me.

-Zim
Message no. 4
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:20:03 -0800
Oops, forgot to include some extra thoughts in my last post...:)

As for spells, you can get really creative with transforming manipulations (and
manipulations in general) with underwater applications
(fist-form will be ignored as to it's obviousness)
tailored transforming manipulations to sprout fins, etc..
create the ever usefull air bubble.
summon school?
etc...

Anyone consider sonic weapons? Yeah, I know, I've played XCOM II, just like everybody
else. But they do make sence.

And don't forget the little personal sled-things (basically a propulsion unit with two
handles) that they use now.

Zim
Message no. 5
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:26:19 UT
NAGTTW
RE Tim's reply to my wave book thingy
Tim coxon
coxoff@***.com
--------
>> Web Foot Legal
>> Extends thin webs from either side of foot, as well as webs between =
>toes.
>>
>> Essence Cost Availability Cost Street Index
>> 0 4/5 days 20,000¥ 1
>> Doubles normal swimming speed, plus adds one die to Swimming skill.
>>
> vs.
>
>
>> SHUKUTEI BIOMED "PHIBIA" AQUATIC WEBBING LEGAL
>> Return to your ancestral home in style! Our new webbing rebuilds let =
>you move
>> through the water with the greatest of ease—and with a speed that =
>would put an
>> unmodified Olympic swimmer to shame. Custom designed bone and skin >=
>lines are
>> used to elongate your digits and create a froglike membrane of skin =
>between
>> them. See ya' at the beach!
>> Level Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
>> 1 .6 4/5 days 5,000¥ 1
>> 2 1.2 5/5 days 8,000¥ 1.25
>>
>> With level 1, your hands are webbed. See the rules on page 77 of =
>Fields of
>> Fire for swimming, but divide by 3 instead of 4.
>> Level 2 is a rebuild of hands and feet. Divide the swimming distance =
>by 2
>> instead of 4.
>> Either level gives a –1 target number for the purposes of =
>manipulation.
>>
>> >>>>>(Erm, yeah. Whatever you say.)<<<<<
>> — Polly (07:34:20/10-19-55)
>>

>I understand one is a cyber version while the other is bio, but..don't =
>they both do
>effectively the same thing? Why not use the same rules for them? Also =
>can you explain
>the incredible price and body/essence cost differences? Seems a bit =
>excessive.
Okay I have no idea why there are two...I copied these both outa nerps books
:) Maybe people go for the theme charcters, does the bio ware one so up on
senser (as if you miss flipper there) can you see it on the astral? Just a few
idea's.
>[next post - regarding last post]
???
>>> LIQUID LUNG LEGAL
>>> This external device is connected to the users back. A small port in =
>the user
>>> back connect directly into the users Cardio-vascular system. The =
>system run on
>>> Oxygenated Fluoro-Carbons (the user needs to have had his blood =
>replaced by
>>> OFCE) This O2/CO2 transfer system has a hundred % efficiency. So you >=
>can stay
>>> down for longer, and because you aren't breathing air it allows you =
>to go as
>>> deep as you want.
>>>
>>I doubt you can improve radically on the haemoglobin system using a
>>simple chemical blood replacement. That's just reality intruding
>>though....
>>
>>You'd get more efficiency improvement out of the oxygenated fluid
>>recirculation sytem (ie you breathe water) that has been recently
>>developed..... No need for ultra-compressed gases and the associated
>>waste with exhaled breath.
>>
>>It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a =
>
>>mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it =
>
>>was fine.

>You know, the pink stuff used in "The Abyss"...works for me.

>-Zim

It wasn't pink....that was the lights in the helmut..you saw the colour of it
when he dropped the rat into it, it was clear. just point out Pg 93 shadow
tech.
Message no. 6
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:29:48 UT
NAGTTW
re tims other reply
tim coxon
coxoff@***.com
--------
>Oops, forgot to include some extra thoughts in my last post...:)

>As for spells, you can get really creative with transforming manipulations
(and
>manipulations in general) with underwater applications
> (fist-form will be ignored as to it's obviousness)
> tailored transforming manipulations to sprout fins, etc..
> create the ever usefull air bubble.
> summon school?
> etc...
You want do a comprehensive list And i'll do the stats?
>Anyone consider sonic weapons? Yeah, I know, I've played XCOM II, just like
>everybody
>else. But they do make sence.
possible, but have you thought about tazers ? :) (you think he'll fall for
it?)
>And don't forget the little personal sled-things (basically a propulsion unit
with two
>handles) that they use now.
Drones?
>Zim
hello fellow tim :)
Message no. 7
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:47:12 UT
RE: RE: My Wave Book so far......
NAGTTW
Tim coxon
coxoff@***.com
--------
Wow Kewl Thanx for the replies, (don't worry I did put this up for the critism
and so I was expecting most of it to get slated),
Confessions:
1. Most this stuff is based on SR stuff put in a water format, XCOM 2 stuff,
most of the cyber/bio ware at the begining was taken from previous nerps books
(wholesale), Flesh (a strip in 2000AD (comic) and of course the abyss.
[snip preliminaries]

>Ummm, guys this is starting to sound a little bit like XCOM 2, Terror from
>the Deep. Especially all the Harpoon Launchers and Man-Portable Torpedo
>launhers. Also, is there really the point to define so many different
>brands of the same gun???
Erm Shadow as it is has 15 heavy pistols (Circa FOF) thy are all different
with different damages, ROF, mods, etc. instead of calling them gun 1, gun 2,
gun 3, yawn they called them actuall name...make it a bit more realistic and
interesting heh? (god that sound sarcy) The main reason for the number of guns
or harpoons in this case is so that we can have some variants on what we have
already...also every one like different things, and the more choices there are
the more people you cater for.
>You've got to remember that you can't hit what you can't see.
>Visibilities in most oceans range from 10 to 40 meters (If you're really
>lucky). After that particulate matter and absorption bleeds out too much
>colour and intensity.

>You can extend the range beyond visual with Battletac systems and
>Ultrasound equipment (ie man-portable sonar), but the density of water
>tends to limit the speed and range of most projectiles. I don't want to
>be the one guessing the ranges you could use.

>[more snipping]
Where the hell did all the 's come from??? I am going to give up on the
editing...

>> Air Breathing Gurth
>> This spell allows creatures that normally live under water and cannot
>>breathe air (such as fish, but not dolphins) to breathe and survive when not
>>under water. The subject can still breathe under water. This spell requires
a
>> voluntary subject.
>> Type: Physical Range: Limited Target: 4
>> Duration: Sustained Drain: [(F/2)+2]L
>>
>> >>>>>[Who designed this one? A
merrow?]<<<<<
>> —Texan (04:37:56/06-24-55)
>>
>The problem is that most creatures that have re-adapted to living in the
>ocean (or never left it in the first place) have no land based movement
>capability....The analogy "Like a fish out of water" springs to mind.
>
>It's definitely a spell limited to usefullness among awakened oceanic biped=
>s.
As said at the top not mine but the alimighty gurths...However as to the fish
out of water thingy have you though of the transportation of fish and stuff?
in loadsa film they transport dolphin and whales and stuff, but this isn't
feasable for fish and things but with this spell it is.... I don't have many
critter books so would know about the marine bipods.

>> CONGEN "SEABREATH" SECONDARY GILLS LEGAL
>>
>> Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
>> 2 8/8 days 30,000¥ 1
>>
>>I'd personally decrease the body cost on this item, and most of the other=
>>
>>items you've described. They cost so much that you have to specialise in=
>>
>underwater ops, because unless you're a troll you can't fit enough other
>stuff to make it worthwhile.
>
>If you want to run an entire underwater campaign, then it's cool.... But
>shadowrunners generally can't afford to blow 2 body points on a set of
>gills which they'll rarely use.
>
>If I recall correctly, a variant on the cyberware air filter out of the
>basic SR rules took care of the artifical gills line, anyway.
>
Sorry couldn't find anything on that in my SR2 rulebook.....Okay on the body
thing, if we assume that the gills have a similar effect as the extended vol
lungs that would make them .6.....(also this one was from a nerps book)

>> SHUKUTEI BIOMED "PHIBIA" AQUATIC WEBBING LEGAL
>[snip]
>> Level Body Cost Availability Cost Street Index
>> 1 .6 4/5 days 5,000¥ 1
>> 2 1.2 5/5 days 8,000¥ 1.25
>>
>Ummm, 1.2 body cost for the biological equivalent of spurs and hand
>razors. (As far as the mod.... process goes anyway)
>??? A bit expensive.
Okay if we assume (you can tell that I do science can't you?) that the cost is
similar to the ortho skin forom shadowtech, then it would cost about 1 but as
that is the whole body then our hands are about (don't quote me) 1/30 of the
total body area. that make them about .03........erm......okay cyber spurs are
.1 so okay lets have it at point one.

>> LIQUID LUNG LEGAL
>> This external device is connected to the users back. A small port in the =
>user
>> back connect directly into the users Cardio-vascular system. The system >r=
>un on
>> Oxygenated Fluoro-Carbons (the user needs to have had his blood >replaced =
>by
>> OFCE) This O2/CO2 transfer system has a hundred % efficiency. So you >can =
>stay
>> down for longer, and because you aren't breathing air it allows you to go=
> as
>> deep as you want.
>>
>I doubt you can improve radically on the haemoglobin system using a
>simple chemical blood replacement. That's just reality intruding
>though....
>
>You'd get more efficiency improvement out of the oxygenated fluid
>recirculation sytem (ie you breathe water) that has been recently
>developed..... No need for ultra-compressed gases and the associated
>waste with exhaled breath.
>
>It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a
>mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it
>was fine.
Okay this Idea was based purely on the oxegenated fluorocarbon emulsion form
shadowtech pg 93 the thinking went roughly that the lungs are about 20%
efficient therefore if a more efficent lung would work you wouldn't waste 80%
of all the O2 you have, however not knowing quite how the current diving
equipment works (is it breath in from tanks out into the sea) I took the 20 %
to be okay....
>[snip]


>> HARD CASE DEEPSEA LEGAL
>> This is the latest design in deep sea diving equipment based on the Espri=
>t
>> military Armour, It has a lower operating deck of ******meters.
>> Conceal Weight Ballistic. Impact Cost Availability S=
>treet Index
>> Air - 12+Body 7 10 700 4/4 days 1.5
>> OFCE - 20+Body 7 10 2000 6/6 days 2
>>
>> forearm util device
>> Tools
>> Battle Tac
>> CyberDeck
>> Computer
>> Comm device
>>
>Ummm, more XCOM anybody???
>
>Most normal impact armours would be directly translatable to undersea
>operations. THere should be partially plated armours using kevlar/cermaic=
>
>weaves and other similar things.... No need to get into heavy military
>rated equipment.
>
>Ballistic armour would be less important underwater, because nothing
>would get the necessary speed up. Impact armour would be everything.
>Even harpoons would use similar rules to arrows.
Okay XCom? Nah not this one sorry. Flesh (forementioned comic) Had these in
(to protect against Bloody Mary a particulary nasty Prehistoric beasty with
big pointy teeth :) but the idea has come up in loadsa other stuff (that Bond
one with the under water bits, the abyss and other stuff) But I do agree on
the Impact stuff but if you think of the pressure that these suit work under
(up to 100 atmos current record I think) The effect of the tiniest breech
would be....I don't want to think about it I am eating (blargh).
>[snip again]


>> Torpedo launcher
>> Saeder-Krupp
>>
>If these have to exist, I suggest making them equivalent weight and size
>to a generic missile launcher.
All I was doing here was converting your average missle launcher into under
water use...(Is there a device that can laser paint on the ultra sound?) as
you said, there was an inkling of Xcom here. but mainly just for the heavy
duty support.

>> Particle grenades

>???? What kind of particles?

This is purely xcom you said near the beginning about the distance of sight
being effected by the particle in the water these just add a load more (smaoke
grenades if you haven't worked it out)

>> HydroPhonicShock Grenade

>That's a depth charge..... unless someone can come up with a different
>explanation.
Sorry depth charge down below...These are just handheld version with less omph
(depth charge are about the size of 50 gallon drums aren't they? imagine
throwing one of them any distance....sorry you can't realy throw much under
water...imagine lugging a depth charge around)

>> Drones of various sorts
>> LockHeed
>> Ares
>> Mct-Nissan

>This is where the real action would be..... Micro submersibles, smart guide=
>d
>torpedos, Sub launched aircraft drones (adapted from today SLCM's ->sub
>launched cruise missiles), etc.
:) big smile... I am trying to do a load more.... but would like to get a load
of most equipment down first... and also see what is in eriks wave book...
>[snip]


>> Depth Charge

>Can't swim fast enough to avoid them...... I don't want to be a fish next=
>
>to a stick of dynamite thankyou.... I'd include them in the equipment
>list, but I'd rate them as security and military equipment only.

>Also, they are of limited use except as a measure to take out intruders
>that are underwater when you are not. You can't project them far enough
>to avoid getting chundered by the blast if you're underwater. The same
>goes for grenades.
you can just tell that I am answering while reading this can't you? (see Shok
greande above), the bit about depth charge being mil/sec avail.....
Depth charge alla cart.
50 gallon drum
loadsa explosives
timer
1. put eplosives and timer in drum.
2.set timer.
3.drop.


>If someone wants to clone XCOM, it's their own business but surely we can=
>
>do better than that? Use it more ideas, and pluck the ones you like, but=
>
>don't take it *all* just because it was a good game; It won't translate.
>
>
>Don't take any of this too badly, please. It's what I consider constructiv=
>e
>criticism, and I'm open to conversion attempts.
>
>
>Good luck.
>
>Bleach

Okay I see your point about Xcom but I did put this up to get your idea's for
other stuff I will take into account the stuff you have mentioned, edit my
current list. and as said before....no hard feeling I also consider it
constructive, but don't you hate when you write a laoda stuff like that and
feel dead guilty about it and then you feel like you have to apologise all the
time.

Thanx
Tim
Message no. 8
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:02:52 +1000
> >> LIQUID LUNG LEGAL
> >> This external device is connected to the users back. A small port in the
user
> >> back connect directly into the users Cardio-vascular system. The system run
on
> >> Oxygenated Fluoro-Carbons (the user needs to have had his blood replaced by
> >> OFCE) This O2/CO2 transfer system has a hundred % efficiency. So you can
stay
> >> down for longer, and because you aren't breathing air it allows you to go as
> >> deep as you want.
> >>
> >I doubt you can improve radically on the haemoglobin system using a
> >simple chemical blood replacement. That's just reality intruding
> >though....
> >
> >You'd get more efficiency improvement out of the oxygenated fluid
> >recirculation sytem (ie you breathe water) that has been recently
> >developed..... No need for ultra-compressed gases and the associated
> >waste with exhaled breath.
> >
> >It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a
> >mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it
> >was fine.
>
> You know, the pink stuff used in "The Abyss"...works for me.
>
Strangely enough for Hollywood, that movie used an actual substance.
That's basically the stuff i was referring to.

Bleach
Message no. 9
From: Peter <wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:37:58 -0600
Bleach wrote:

>[snip preliminaries]
>

>
>> LIQUID LUNG LEGAL
>> This external device is connected to the users back. A small port in the user
>> back connect directly into the users Cardio-vascular system. The system run on
>> Oxygenated Fluoro-Carbons (the user needs to have had his blood replaced by
>> OFCE) This O2/CO2 transfer system has a hundred % efficiency. So you can stay
>> down for longer, and because you aren't breathing air it allows you to go as
>> deep as you want.
>>
>I doubt you can improve radically on the haemoglobin system using a
>simple chemical blood replacement. That's just reality intruding
>though....
>
>You'd get more efficiency improvement out of the oxygenated fluid
>recirculation sytem (ie you breathe water) that has been recently
>developed..... No need for ultra-compressed gases and the associated
>waste with exhaled breath.
>
>It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a
>mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it
>was fine.
>
>[snip]

[sinp to the end]

I thought this was still a scifi-movie-theoretical-posibility thing. I
saw the mouse demo in "The Abyss" but had no idea that anyone was actually
using this. Where did you see it? Come on give. I want to go for a swim.

Seriously, I'd like to know more about this technology.

Piatro
Message no. 10
From: Peter <wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:38:05 -0600
>> >
>> >You'd get more efficiency improvement out of the oxygenated fluid
>> >recirculation sytem (ie you breathe water) that has been recently
>> >developed..... No need for ultra-compressed gases and the associated
>> >waste with exhaled breath.
>> >
>> >It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a
>> >mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it
>> >was fine.
>>
>> You know, the pink stuff used in "The Abyss"...works for me.
>>
>Strangely enough for Hollywood, that movie used an actual substance.
>That's basically the stuff i was referring to.
>
>Bleach


"an actual substance" "basically the stuff"

Can you posibly be more general?



Piatro
Message no. 11
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:51:16 +1000
> >It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a
> >mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it
> >was fine.
> >
>
> I thought this was still a scifi-movie-theoretical-posibility thing. I
> saw the mouse demo in "The Abyss" but had no idea that anyone was actually
> using this. Where did you see it? Come on give. I want to go for a swim.
>
From what I remember it was demonstrated in Beyond 2000; A Television
science show.... quite a while ago from what I remember. It
basically mimicked the trick that they showed on aliens. Could be
entirely wrong though..... I figure that it is possible, and easier to
arrange than a full blood replacement.

There could be some problems with emphesema and fluid on the lungs, but
that's the price you pay for being able to avoid the bends and the horrific
oxygen expenditure at great depths.

Also keep in mind the specialised gas mixtures that are currently used at
depth. If you replace the Nitrogen and part of the Oxygen with Helium it
greatly increases the depth you can work at.... Kind of expensive.

Did you know that Oxygen becomes toxic at a partial pressure of about one
atmosphere??? .... That equates to a depth of about 70 meters if you're
breathing compressed air.

Whether or not it's currently possible or in wide use, I'd like to see it
included in the game... It means that you don't have to run out and get a
set of gills implanted if you have to go diving below 100 meters on a run.


Also, another major tool used today is thermite. Oil rig divers weld with
it, because it doesn't need an external oxygen supply to combust.... Very
useful in a SR game.

Bleach
Message no. 12
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:55:40 +1000
> >Strangely enough for Hollywood, that movie used an actual substance.
> >That's basically the stuff i was referring to.
> >
> "an actual substance" "basically the stuff"
>
> Can you posibly be more general?
>
Go and look it up youself if you're so interested. Like most of my posts
on here, I don't have a library immediately available and a photogrpahic
memory isn't one of my major attributes.

Give me a break.

Any liquid substance should do, provided that it doesn't damage the lungs,
and that it is highly (though not agressively) soluble to CO2 and O2.... I'm
not even going to speculate how you'd feel while inhaling a fluid, though.

Bleach
Message no. 13
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:03:37 +1100
Hi

I'm going to have to agree with Bleach on this topic. I really am not
looking forward to a simple conversion of XCOM II into the SR world. Have
we forgotten to use our brains and imagination for something unique and
in character with the SR world. The XCOM underwater world and SR don't
seem to be *that* compatible in many aspects. So please, try for some
originality.

Please don't take this to be a flame, I'm just trying to open up this
wave book to newer, better possibilities.

BTW, on the O2/CO2 transfer devices, I note that haemoglobin replacement
schemes seems to be quite popular with people. I suggest people be
careful in this respect, the O2/CO2 transfer system of the human body is
highly refined and sophisticated. Most changes such as the change in
efficiency will drastically change the physiology of the human body. You
see, haemoglobin is used in a number of balancing systems and transfering
systems of the body and not just O2/CO2. For those who've done chemistry,
it's also used as a buffering system for the blood and extra cellular
fluid, as well as a number of other things.

Hence, what I'm trying to say is that, besides the artificial amniotic
fluid (read Abyss) which uses a higher pressure than air and is able to
be saturated with O2 etc etc, most bio/cyberware cannot function. This is
unless it is extraordinarily invasive, such as in the case of totally
replacing the haemoglobin system.

What can happen though is a more efficient lung can be developed. Most
modern athletes in endurance sports are not so much limited by their
muscles and lactic acid build-up etc but by their lungs. Thoughts, comments?

As I said before, do not take this message as a flame, but rather as some
constructive criticism (which I think is one of the objectives of NERPS).

Shaman
Message no. 14
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:05:38 +1100
<<SNIP>>
LUNG ENHANCEMENTS
>
> I thought this was still a scifi-movie-theoretical-posibility thing. I
> saw the mouse demo in "The Abyss" but had no idea that anyone was actually
> using this. Where did you see it? Come on give. I want to go for a swim.
>
> Seriously, I'd like to know more about this technology.
>
> Piatro
>
Yep Piatro, It's reality.

Shaman
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:10:33 +0100
Peter Coxon said on 14:24/28 Oct 96...

> I have tried to get the layout right (saves work for Gurth)

Thank you :)

[cyberware etc. snipped]

All this isn't new, is it? I distinctly remember writing some of those
texts myself, and of the rest, some are my conversions of CP2020 stuff and
Morninman's bioware. As far as I'm concerned, this is not what should be
in the article... It would be better to put in a reference to the
book/file/web site where the stuff is located, instead of using the text
in a NERPS book without permission from the original author.

> Stuff that I thought of:

That's better :)

> HARD CASE DEEPSEA LEGAL
> This is the latest design in deep sea diving equipment based on the Esprit
> military Armour, It has a lower operating deck of ******meters.
> Conceal Weight Ballistic. Impact Cost Availability Street Index
> Air - 12+Body 7 10 700 4/4 days 1.5
> OFCE - 20+Body 7 10 2000 6/6 days 2

I suppose the ****** is to be replaced by the depth to which it can be
used? If anyone knows what the typical depth for this is, please let us
all know...

> Name Conceal Range Ammo Mode Damage Weight Avail. Cost Index
> Ares 5 Heavy Pistol 10(c) SA 8M 3 500 1
> Colt 5 Hold out 12(c) SA 8M 3.25 600 1.25
> Saeder-Krupp 4 Hold out 10(c) SA 9M 3.25 575
1.4
> Telestrian 4 Shotgun 2(break) SS 10M 2.5 450
.9

Do these use standard ammo and ranges, or are they special or modified
because of the water?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's just a lot of stupid stupid signs.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 16
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:31:12 GMT
Peter writes

> >You'd get more efficiency improvement out of the oxygenated fluid
> >recirculation sytem (ie you breathe water) that has been recently
> >developed..... No need for ultra-compressed gases and the associated
> >waste with exhaled breath.
> >
> >It doesn't require you to exchange blood to use the system; I've seen a
> >mouse dropped in a tank of the stuff, and after a breif panic attack it
> >was fine.
>
> I thought this was still a scifi-movie-theoretical-posibility thing. I
> saw the mouse demo in "The Abyss" but had no idea that anyone was actually
> using this. Where did you see it? Come on give. I want to go for a swim.
>
> Seriously, I'd like to know more about this technology.
>
Its a liquid.
Basically you fill your lungs with the stuff and its recirculated
somehow through a system that keeps it topped up with oxygen.
Stories about it have been going about for a few years, i don't know
any serious details, but at least the US armed forces have it working
(don't know how much of the details are classified though, enough is
know to use it in SR, we need to know what it does not how to build
one :) ) It solves most of the problems with the bends, and allows
diving to a much greater depth than does compressed air.

I don't know how you go about switching to/from the system but i
would suspect support equipment and a doctor are adviseable just in
case. It would be quite sensible that this technology be readily
available in SR.

I agree that trying to switch out someones blood is rather complex,
most of the bodies systems are so intergrated that actually replacing
one is rather impossible, some sort of oxygen transprot enhancement
thats added in might work but outdoing nature at oxygen transprot
system design might prove rather difficult.

Mark
Message no. 17
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:38:40 UT
NAGTTW
RE:RE:My wave book so far....
Tim coxon
Coxoff@***.com

>Peter Coxon said on 14:24/28 Oct 96...
>
>> I have tried to get the layout right (saves work for Gurth)
>
>Thank you :)
>
>[cyberware etc. snipped]
>
>All this isn't new, is it? I distinctly remember writing some of those
>texts myself, and of the rest, some are my conversions of CP2020 stuff and
>Morninman's bioware. As far as I'm concerned, this is not what should be
>in the article... It would be better to put in a reference to the
>book/file/web site where the stuff is located, instead of using the text
>in a NERPS book without permission from the original author.
Yes I know I freely admitted taking to first 4 or 5 items straight from
previous nerps books, and yes I will put references in instead. (just a
thought but have you made an index for all of the nerps books, if not do you
want a copy of mine....I found that it is a lot easy than trying to look
though all the books (I have a manual feed printer before you ask) and
Paranoid.doc being six megs (no bad thing) make it a bit difficult for my comp
to handle, just a few thought :) )

>> Stuff that I thought of:
>
>That's better :)
>
>> HARD CASE DEEPSEA LEGAL
>> This is the latest design in deep sea diving equipment based on the Esprit
>> military Armour, It has a lower operating deck of ******meters.
>> Conceal Weight Ballistic. Impact Cost Availability
Street Index
>> Air - 12+Body 7 10 700 4/4 days 1.5
>> OFCE - 20+Body 7 10 2000 6/6 days 2
>
>I suppose the ****** is to be replaced by the depth to which it can be
>used? If anyone knows what the typical depth for this is, please let us
>all know...
yep ***** is, I have seen some stuff on the 10 km depth but I would like that
varified not being a marine physicist and all :).
>> Name Conceal Range Ammo Mode Damage Weight Avail. Cost
Index
>> Ares 5 Heavy Pistol 10(c) SA 8M 3 500
1
>> Colt 5 Hold out 12(c) SA 8M 3.25 600
1.25
>> Saeder-Krupp 4 Hold out 10(c) SA 9M 3.25
575 1.4
>> Telestrian 4 Shotgun 2(break) SS 10M 2.5
450 .9
>
>Do these use standard ammo and ranges, or are they special or modified
>because of the water?
well I am not sure on that one idea's? any one know the friction coef. of
water?
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> It's just a lot of stupid stupid signs.
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
>-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
>
>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
>Version 3.1:
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>Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Thanx :)
ps do i have to put the thingy code at the top on every thing I send, or just
the first in the thread?
Message no. 18
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:55:08 UT
<snip>
>> You know, the pink stuff used in "The Abyss"...works for me.
>>
>Strangely enough for Hollywood, that movie used an actual substance.
>That's basically the stuff i was referring to.
>
>Bleach


"an actual substance" "basically the stuff"

Can you posibly be more general?



Piatro

Oxygenated Flourocarbon Emulsion Pg93 shadowtech, Abyss and various real life
places.
Message no. 19
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:50:54 UT
<big snip>
Shaman
Read pg93 of shadowtech for ads and disads of OFCE
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:31:20 +0100
Peter Coxon said on 11:38/29 Oct 96...

> Yes I know I freely admitted taking to first 4 or 5 items straight from
> previous nerps books, and yes I will put references in instead. (just a
> thought but have you made an index for all of the nerps books, if not do you
> want a copy of mine....I found that it is a lot easy than trying to look
> though all the books (I have a manual feed printer before you ask) and
> Paranoid.doc being six megs (no bad thing) make it a bit difficult for my comp
> to handle, just a few thought :) )

I have no index of the NERPS books, and to tell the truth, your effort
would be of little use to others -- it will list the correct page numbers
for your print-outs, but most likely not for mine. Word processors tend to
change the layout a little depending on which printer driver you have
installed, and so can push things over the edge of a page onto the next
one.

> >Do these use standard ammo and ranges, or are they special or modified
> >because of the water?
> well I am not sure on that one idea's? any one know the friction coef. of
> water?

I don't really have any exact data, but friction is much higher in water
so ranges should be shorter IMHO. Perhaps halve them?

> ps do i have to put the thingy code at the top on every thing I send, or just
> the first in the thread?

Only if you actually submit an article. For talking about stuff that gets
posted, you can leave off the header.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zes geiten onder tafel.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 21
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: My wave book so far....
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:41:49 +1000
> > >Do these use standard ammo and ranges, or are they special or modified
> > >because of the water?
> > well I am not sure on that one idea's? any one know the friction coef. of
> > water?
>
> I don't really have any exact data, but friction is much higher in water
> so ranges should be shorter IMHO. Perhaps halve them?
>
Less..... It's practically imposible to throw a grenade far enough under
water to avoid the blast, for one.

Also, the coef. of friction acts more the further you have to travel.
Pistols may halve their ranges, but a sniper rifle may divide by five
(and that's generous).

Current ballistics tests use a large tank of water into which they fire
the bullet.... The tank is small enough to fit on the upper floors of a
building (ie Brisbane police headquarters), but it still slows the bullet
enough so that it doesn't deform on hitting the wall.

If guns slow down that much, there isn't much point to using them under
water (serious decrease in pwoer level).... The trick is to get the
bullet or explosive effect right to the target, and then fire it.... Ie,
torpedos and the power heads on spear guns.

Also keep in mind that a gun will not fire when its barrel or firing
mechanism is full of water. Actually; I lie; It will fire, just the
expanding gases cannot displace the water enough, and the gun essentially
explodes in your hands.... Never let your gun get water or mud in the
barrel.

The US SEALS use a six shot revolver, in which each bullet is sealed in
it's own air-tight barrel.... Very bulky, but there are times when it'd be
worth it.

Bleach

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about My wave book so far...., you may also be interested in:

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