Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	olafur gunnarsson <olafurg@******.IS>
Subject:	NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:30:59 GMT

Message no. 1 Heres my first draft for the Icelandic Timeline in 2057.Id value all Inpu=
t
Even the Bad ones:).Seriously if you feel i should ad or remove anything =
say so
Thanks In advance
-Olafur G

History
2001 The Decline of the North Atlantic Fishing Industry through overfishi=
ng
and a series of ecological Disasters pushes Icelands Economy into a
dive,unemployment reaches an all time high.
2002 To save the economy Icelands goverment signs deals with England to
provide them with cheap clean electricity through undersea lines.Plans ar=
e
made to built the first three lines before 2006.
Iceland also signs agreements with Cal International for Builting a new
Alumnium Factory.
Also agreements with the Swedish Computer company SXS.Inc to built two
assembly plants.
2003 The first of the Undersea Lines is built way before scedule.The mone=
y
from the Energy sales goes into strengthening the economy providing funds=
to
a number of Software development companys
as well as light manufacturing companys,mostly engaged in communications
develpment.
2004 Late in the year the first of the two SXS Inc factorys is finished a=
nd
the economy shows signs of reaching the same level of stability as before
2006 The Alumnium Factory is abandoned after Cal International goes bankr=
upt
.The economy suffers a minor crash but stabilises again when a concern of
Icelandic buisnessmen with the help of the goverment buy the half finishe=
d
factory with plans to get it operational in late 2010.The last of the thr=
ee
undersea lines is finished plans are made to construct more before 2012.=
The
second SXS Inc
factory is finished late in the year
2010 Vitas strikes Iceland late in the year but is largely contained as t=
he
Quarantine act is implemented.Loses are still high with close to 30.000
people dead.
2011 A number of Volcanos go active and a major Earthquake strikes the c=
ity
of Reykjavik a large part of the old city goes under water damage is
calculated in the millions over 5000 thousand die
with over 60.000 more loosing thier homes.Emergency shelters are built a =
few
kms outside the shattered city Volcanic activity does major damage to a
number of important roads and flying becomes dangerous due to unpredictab=
le
weather patterns and thick cloud of ash wich scatter hundreds of kms
away.First reports of magic are made even more bizarre when reports of a
dragon flying over Snæfellsjokull are reported on the Radio.The dragon =
is
later identified as the Great Dragon Fafnir.At the end of the year hopes =
for
rebuilding begin to surface.
2012.England in desparate need of clean Energy after the nuclear accident=
s
of the year before.
Pushes for the completion of the five new undersea lines wich were halted
during the disasters of 2010 and 2011, At the same time plans are made to
built a total of 25 more in the next ten years to supplie close to 23% of
Englands energy with more to follow as needed.
2013.Rebuilding of the capital Reykjavik begin with parts of the old city
being repaired and flood walls being set into place hopes are that much o=
f
the city can be reclaimed using technology perfected by Holland.
2014 To kepp up with Englands need for energy,plans are made to built a n=
ew
hydropower plant
also plans to build wind farms are set forward.
2016 With signs that the North Atlantic fishing stcoks are reaching high
enough levels plans are made to start small scale fishing again
2018.The Indian war ends With America and Canada deedin a great deal of l=
and
to the Indian nations.The US abandons the Keflavik AFB after a short flur=
ry
of talks with the Icelandic Goverment.
Iceland agrees to keep managing the Radar net for America.
2020. The Trans polar Aleut offers Iceland to join the new nation,and aft=
er
a flurry on negotiations Iceland accepts becoming a Tribal group within t=
he
TPA the only White skin tribe in the nation
many claim that Icelands motives for this is to gain control of the wast
Fishing areas the TPA has.
2021 Uge strike people start changing into orcs and trolls. As with the
prior goblinization there is at first panic but this soon settles down wi=
th
no real racism managing to gain foothold.Levels of Orcs and trolls born i=
n
Iceland are slightly higher than in other parts of the world.
2024 A study made shows that a disaprobriate number of Icelanders are
magicaly active with most being eather Shamanic or Idolers and Hermetics =
in
a minority.
2025 The last of the ten new Undersealines is finished at the same time a=
s
the new hydroplant and windfarms become opperational providing a massive
influx of capital.Much of wich goes into rebuilding the fishing industry.
2029 The Great Crash strikes wiping out the worlds Internet.As much of
Icelands Govermental and Corporate datanets are hooked to the Internet
cousing untold damage to the countrys economy
2031 Strains begin to develop between The TPA and the Icelandic self
goverment as the TPA pushes for the ceasation of fishing and the closing =
of
Heavy Industry in all its signiatory lands. Iceland wich
has considerable interests in continuing fishing and heavy industry.Uses =
its
right to veto against these bills cousing an upproar among the other trib=
al
groups.
2032 With help from the Ucas goverment Icelands Data systems are purged.
2035 Iceland again Vetos bills being passed to limit fishing in TPA seas.=
A
coalition proposes a bill that will make it impossible for Iceland to vet=
o
certain bills.Iceland threatens to declare Independence, the bill is quie=
tly
droped.
2037 To help lighten the need for Energy in the TPA Iceland begins to bui=
lt
Undersea lines to Greenland from were energy would be fed into the countr=
y
power grid.
2039 the first two lines are finished plans are to built more as needed.
2045 A series of Eco terrorist strikes against Icelandic Fishing ships ar=
e
traced to groups within the TPA Goverment Cousing an uproar.Schism betwee=
n
Iceland and the rest of the TPA Deepens.
2046 the Souix Nation Begins to train and supply TPA peaceforcers Iceland
requests the right to send
groups to take part in the trainning. The request is denied cousing the
Icelandic Delegation in the tribal council to stage a walkout.Threats of
seccesion are countered with threats of armed might if anything like that=
is
tried.Icelandic Nationalist groups stage protests and riots break out in =
the
Capital city.
2049 Attempts are made by the goverment to heal the wounds between Icelan=
d
and the council after about a year of talks proves fruitless Icelandic
officials warn that things may take a darker turning
2050 The TPAPasses a law allowing them to stage peaceforcer troops from t=
he
Unused Keflavik AFB.Riots break out again.Escalating into fights between
Anglo Locals and Aleut immigrants.
the Peacerforcer troops are sent to quell the unrest.
2051 An explosion kills 8 and wound 23 TPA Peaceforcers.A group calling
Itself OPM claims responsibility the groups aims is a " Free and Sovreign
Icelandic Democray". The TPA council threatens that unless local Icelandi=
c
officials get matters under control the council will Increase the peace
force to combat the threat.Matter quit down but rumors claim that the OPM=
is
gathering thier forces for a second strike.
2054 on the morning of June the 17th the old National Holiday a Message i=
s
sent to all major news networks.Were Iceland declares itself an Independe=
nt
country from the TPA.At the same time a message is sent to the TPA tribal
council declaring that unless TPA troops begin Evacuating the Keflavik AF=
B
within 24 hrs, A state of war will be declared. The TPA answers with
declaring a state of emergency and ordering a curfiew of all Icelandic
civilians.It also begins to Muster troops to send to back up the Peace
forcers Company allready there.
As the PF troops begin to leave the base heading for Reykjavik to carry o=
ut
the orders.They are amushed by Rebel Troops using sophisticated small arm=
s
and anti vehicle weaponry.It is later found out that the weapons were
supplied by Tír na´nog in return for unknown concessions.
In a searies of short but bloody fight the local PF troops are all but wi=
ped
out.So that once the TPA is ready to send in Reinforcements they are faci=
ng
a Hostile country.Once it is learned that Iceland has
Fielded close to 10.000 troops well trained and heavily equiped, plans fo=
r
an Invasion are droped.
Among the countries first to recocnise Icelands Independence are Great
Britain Tír Na´nog Ucas
Eistalnd Letland and Lithaen as well as the Scandinavian Union.
2055 Iceland Anounces the creation of the Iceland Corporate Enclave as th=
e
Countries Goverment built along the lines of the Pueblo corporate
council.The Enclave begins Rapid economic expansion
Increasing sales of Energy to England and channeling more money into
economic builtup.
2056 After a peace meeting Hosted by the Scandinavian Union ICE and TPA s=
ign
a peace treaty and the TPA recocnises Icelands Independence.The other nat=
ive
nations follow suit.agreements for
reasuming sales of energy to the TPA are drawn up and repairs on the
Undersealines are started.
2057 ICE Announces plans to built research stations on the North pole and=
a
number of undersea stations plans are to begin in late 2057 the first Nor=
th
pole station is to be ready in 2059 with the firs Deep sea station to be
finished a year later in 2060

Well thats it for now dig in :).

From:	olafur gunnarsson <olafurg@******.IS>
Subject:	NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:06:28 GMT

Message no. 2 Heres my first draft for the Icelandic Timeline in 2057.Id value all Inpu=
t
Even the Bad ones:).Seriously if you feel i should ad or remove anything =
say so
Thanks In advance.Note i tried to send this few days ago but i got back a
msg about it not getting through so im sending it again if it gets throug=
h
would someone tell me so that i dont send it again :).
-Olafur G

History
2001 The Decline of the North Atlantic Fishing Industry through overfishi=
ng
and a series of ecological Disasters pushes Icelands Economy into a
dive,unemployment reaches an all time high.
2002 To save the economy Icelands goverment signs deals with England to
provide them with cheap clean electricity through undersea lines.Plans ar=
e
made to built the first three lines before 2006.
Iceland also signs agreements with Cal International for Builting a new
Alumnium Factory.
Also agreements with the Swedish Computer company SXS.Inc to built two
assembly plants.
2003 The first of the Undersea Lines is built way before scedule.The mone=
y
from the Energy sales goes into strengthening the economy providing funds=
to
a number of Software development companys
as well as light manufacturing companys,mostly engaged in communications
develpment.
2004 Late in the year the first of the two SXS Inc factorys is finished a=
nd
the economy shows signs of reaching the same level of stability as before
2006 The Alumnium Factory is abandoned after Cal International goes bankr=
upt
.The economy suffers a minor crash but stabilises again when a concern of
Icelandic buisnessmen with the help of the goverment buy the half finishe=
d
factory with plans to get it operational in late 2010.The last of the thr=
ee
undersea lines is finished plans are made to construct more before 2012.=
The
second SXS Inc
factory is finished late in the year
2010 Vitas strikes Iceland late in the year but is largely contained as t=
he
Quarantine act is implemented.Loses are still high with close to 30.000
people dead.
2011 A number of Volcanos go active and a major Earthquake strikes the c=
ity
of Reykjavik a large part of the old city goes under water damage is
calculated in the millions over 5000 thousand die
with over 60.000 more loosing thier homes.Emergency shelters are built a =
few
kms outside the shattered city Volcanic activity does major damage to a
number of important roads and flying becomes dangerous due to unpredictab=
le
weather patterns and thick cloud of ash wich scatter hundreds of kms
away.First reports of magic are made even more bizarre when reports of a
dragon flying over Snæfellsjokull are reported on the Radio.The dragon =
is
later identified as the Great Dragon Fafnir.At the end of the year hopes =
for
rebuilding begin to surface.
2012.England in desparate need of clean Energy after the nuclear accident=
s
of the year before.
Pushes for the completion of the five new undersea lines wich were halted
during the disasters of 2010 and 2011, At the same time plans are made to
built a total of 25 more in the next ten years to supplie close to 23% of
Englands energy with more to follow as needed.
2013.Rebuilding of the capital Reykjavik begin with parts of the old city
being repaired and flood walls being set into place hopes are that much o=
f
the city can be reclaimed using technology perfected by Holland.
2014 To kepp up with Englands need for energy,plans are made to built a n=
ew
hydropower plant
also plans to build wind farms are set forward.
2016 With signs that the North Atlantic fishing stcoks are reaching high
enough levels plans are made to start small scale fishing again
2018.The Indian war ends With America and Canada deedin a great deal of l=
and
to the Indian nations.The US abandons the Keflavik AFB after a short flur=
ry
of talks with the Icelandic Goverment.
Iceland agrees to keep managing the Radar net for America.
2020. The Trans polar Aleut offers Iceland to join the new nation,and aft=
er
a flurry on negotiations Iceland accepts becoming a Tribal group within t=
he
TPA the only White skin tribe in the nation
many claim that Icelands motives for this is to gain control of the wast
Fishing areas the TPA has.
2021 Uge strike people start changing into orcs and trolls. As with the
prior goblinization there is at first panic but this soon settles down wi=
th
no real racism managing to gain foothold.Levels of Orcs and trolls born i=
n
Iceland are slightly higher than in other parts of the world.
2024 A study made shows that a disaprobriate number of Icelanders are
magicaly active with most being eather Shamanic or Idolers and Hermetics =
in
a minority.
2025 The last of the ten new Undersealines is finished at the same time a=
s
the new hydroplant and windfarms become opperational providing a massive
influx of capital.Much of wich goes into rebuilding the fishing industry.
2029 The Great Crash strikes wiping out the worlds Internet.As much of
Icelands Govermental and Corporate datanets are hooked to the Internet
cousing untold damage to the countrys economy
2031 Strains begin to develop between The TPA and the Icelandic self
goverment as the TPA pushes for the ceasation of fishing and the closing =
of
Heavy Industry in all its signiatory lands. Iceland wich
has considerable interests in continuing fishing and heavy industry.Uses =
its
right to veto against these bills cousing an upproar among the other trib=
al
groups.
2032 With help from the Ucas goverment Icelands Data systems are purged.
2035 Iceland again Vetos bills being passed to limit fishing in TPA seas.=
A
coalition proposes a bill that will make it impossible for Iceland to vet=
o
certain bills.Iceland threatens to declare Independence, the bill is quie=
tly
droped.
2037 To help lighten the need for Energy in the TPA Iceland begins to bui=
lt
Undersea lines to Greenland from were energy would be fed into the countr=
y
power grid.
2039 the first two lines are finished plans are to built more as needed.
2045 A series of Eco terrorist strikes against Icelandic Fishing ships ar=
e
traced to groups within the TPA Goverment Cousing an uproar.Schism betwee=
n
Iceland and the rest of the TPA Deepens.
2046 the Souix Nation Begins to train and supply TPA peaceforcers Iceland
requests the right to send
groups to take part in the trainning. The request is denied cousing the
Icelandic Delegation in the tribal council to stage a walkout.Threats of
seccesion are countered with threats of armed might if anything like that=
is
tried.Icelandic Nationalist groups stage protests and riots break out in =
the
Capital city.
2049 Attempts are made by the goverment to heal the wounds between Icelan=
d
and the council after about a year of talks proves fruitless Icelandic
officials warn that things may take a darker turning
2050 The TPAPasses a law allowing them to stage peaceforcer troops from t=
he
Unused Keflavik AFB.Riots break out again.Escalating into fights between
Anglo Locals and Aleut immigrants.
the Peacerforcer troops are sent to quell the unrest.
2051 An explosion kills 8 and wound 23 TPA Peaceforcers.A group calling
Itself OPM claims responsibility the groups aims is a " Free and Sovreign
Icelandic Democray". The TPA council threatens that unless local Icelandi=
c
officials get matters under control the council will Increase the peace
force to combat the threat.Matter quit down but rumors claim that the OPM=
is
gathering thier forces for a second strike.
2054 on the morning of June the 17th the old National Holiday a Message i=
s
sent to all major news networks.Were Iceland declares itself an Independe=
nt
country from the TPA.At the same time a message is sent to the TPA tribal
council declaring that unless TPA troops begin Evacuating the Keflavik AF=
B
within 24 hrs, A state of war will be declared. The TPA answers with
declaring a state of emergency and ordering a curfiew of all Icelandic
civilians.It also begins to Muster troops to send to back up the Peace
forcers Company allready there.
As the PF troops begin to leave the base heading for Reykjavik to carry o=
ut
the orders.They are amushed by Rebel Troops using sophisticated small arm=
s
and anti vehicle weaponry.It is later found out that the weapons were
supplied by Tír na´nog in return for unknown concessions.
In a searies of short but bloody fight the local PF troops are all but wi=
ped
out.So that once the TPA is ready to send in Reinforcements they are faci=
ng
a Hostile country.Once it is learned that Iceland has
Fielded close to 10.000 troops well trained and heavily equiped, plans fo=
r
an Invasion are droped.
Among the countries first to recocnise Icelands Independence are Great
Britain Tír Na´nog Ucas
Eistalnd Letland and Lithaen as well as the Scandinavian Union.
2055 Iceland Anounces the creation of the Iceland Corporate Enclave as th=
e
Countries Goverment built along the lines of the Pueblo corporate
council.The Enclave begins Rapid economic expansion
Increasing sales of Energy to England and channeling more money into
economic builtup.
2056 After a peace meeting Hosted by the Scandinavian Union ICE and TPA s=
ign
a peace treaty and the TPA recocnises Icelands Independence.The other nat=
ive
nations follow suit.agreements for
reasuming sales of energy to the TPA are drawn up and repairs on the
Undersealines are started.
2057 ICE Announces plans to built research stations on the North pole and=
a
number of undersea stations plans are to begin in late 2057 the first Nor=
th
pole station is to be ready in 2059 with the firs Deep sea station to be
finished a year later in 2060

Well thats it for now dig in :).

From:	david christopher stephens <tfn5150@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:43:31 -0500

Message no. 3 thanx dude it went thru

Everyone I now has gone away,
Died or left or forgot to stay
Sometimes took for granted
Sometimes turned away
Sometimes didn't say what i meant to say
Garbage (dog new tricks)

From:	"Paolo Falco, FoxMaster" <Falco@****.IT>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:15:16 +0000

Message no. 4 olafur gunnarsson this did say to a FoxMaster about NAGTW Iceland
part...

These are excerpts from the Timeline for iceland... Notice anything
strange?

> 2012.England in desparate need of clean Energy after the nuclear
> accidents of the year before. [...]
> 2013.Rebuilding of the capital Reykjavik begin with parts of the
> old city being repaired and flood walls being set into place hopes
> are that much of the city can be reclaimed using technology
> perfected by Holland.
> 2014 To kepp up with Englands need for energy,plans are made to
> built a [...]
> 2016 With signs that the North Atlantic fishing stcoks are reaching
> high enough levels plans are made to start small scale fishing
> again [..]
> 2020. The Trans polar Aleut offers Iceland to join the new
> nation,[...]
> 2024 A study made shows that a disaprobriate number of Icelanders
> are magicaly active with [...]
> 2025 The last of the ten new Undersealines is finished at the same
> time as the new hydroplant and windfarms become opperational
> providing a massive influx of capital[...]
> 2054 on the morning of June the 17th the old National Holiday a
> Message is sent to all major news networks.Were Iceland declares
> itself an Independent country from the TPA[...] They are amushed
> by Rebel Troops using sophisticated small arms and anti vehicle
> weaponry.It is later found out [...] In a searies of short but
> bloody fight the local PF troops are all but wiped out.[...] Once
> it is learned that Iceland has Fielded close to 10.000 troops well
> trained and heavily equiped, plans for an Invasion are droped.
> 2055 Iceland Anounces the creation of the Iceland Corporate
> Enclave as the Countries Goverment built along the lines of the
> Pueblo corporate council.The Enclave begins Rapid economic
> expansion Increasing sales of Energy to England and channeling more
> money into economic builtup.
> 2056 After a peace meeting Hosted by the Scandinavian Union ICE and
> TPA sign a peace treaty and the TPA recocnises Icelands
> Independence.The other native nations follow suit.agreements for
> reasuming sales of energy to the TPA are drawn up and repairs on
> the Undersealines are started.
> 2057 ICE Announces plans to built research stations on the North
> pole and a number of undersea stations plans are to begin in late
> 2057 the first North
> pole station is to be ready in 2059 with the firs Deep sea station
> to be finished a year later in 2060

This was the only thing I had feared about doing a NAGTTW... It's
called "campanilism" in italian, or Thinking That Your Country IS
Better Than (almost) All Others... In other words, olafur has given
us a MIGHTILY optimistic view of iceland in the 2050es. Now, yes, it
is all very detalied and realistic, but will everyone do the same or
will someone have the bravery to describe a real cyberpunk environment
instead of this sort of wishy-washy sort-of-cyberpunk (mixed with a
little Star Wars and a hint that HE himself would like to be a
shaman) stuff?
I mean, if you had come from Great Britain, would you have written
the England Sourcebook??? I takes guts to detail your own country's
future as a wasted, polluted, infested, violent, poor, underground
rainy a**hole in the universe, especially when other people describe
theirs as shiny, magical, rightly rebellious fishing and clean-energy
producing havens (who had the strength to rise up after a big
disaster, to top it all).
But isn't pessimism what cyberpunk is all about?

I don't think this is the right attitude, but that's just my opinion,
of course. In other words, I wouldn't let my PCs play in Iceland. And I
wouldn't buy a supplement with this sort of background, if it came
out. It's not the single event that's not good IMHO, it's the whole
attitude.

Free to disagree, of course, but think about it before coming for my
throat! :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
pAoLo FaLco | "Casual match in a very fry field fire and ash
(a FoxMaster) | is the season's yield" (Suzanne Vega)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2717
Paradoxal Skating page for Gamers with AnarcoLemming view on life

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:22:30 +0100

Message no. 5 Paolo Falco, FoxMaster said on 19:15/ 6 Nov 96...

> > 2013.Rebuilding of the capital Reykjavik begin with parts of the
> > old city being repaired and flood walls being set into place hopes
> > are that much of the city can be reclaimed using technology
> > perfected by Holland.

PLEASE replace that H-word by something else...

[rest of Iceland timeline snipped]
> This was the only thing I had feared about doing a NAGTTW... It's
> called "campanilism" in italian, or Thinking That Your Country IS
> Better Than (almost) All Others... In other words, olafur has given
> us a MIGHTILY optimistic view of iceland in the 2050es. Now, yes, it
> is all very detalied and realistic, but will everyone do the same or
> will someone have the bravery to describe a real cyberpunk environment
> instead of this sort of wishy-washy sort-of-cyberpunk (mixed with a
> little Star Wars and a hint that HE himself would like to be a
> shaman) stuff?

I started re-working my original Netherlands article (from about 2 years
ago) today, and I must say I noticed much the same thing about my own text
(actually, I noticed it when I read this message). It's too bright, too
nice, and too unaffected by the general misery of the world...

What I'm trying to say is, Paolo has a point. Most of the world is pretty
fragged up in the 2050s, even though just about everyone will tell you
that the country they themselves live in, will not be affected in the way
FASA says it is. (For two good examples, look at the British response to
the London Sourcebook, and the Germans' tales about the Germany SB.)

I agree that a too optimistic view of a country isn't what fits in with
the rest of the SR game world, so it would be a good idea for everyone to
keep in mind that this isn't a competition to see who can make a country
that's better off than all the others. However, I also don't think this
should turn into a race to make your country/area the worst off in the
world :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The flat earth society has been here today.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:31:31 -0700

Message no. 6 Gurth wrote:
|
|However, I also don't think this
|should turn into a race to make your country/area the worst off in the
|world :)

Great, now I gotta re-write Albuquerque. And I woulda won too :)
(look forward to riggers with dayglow pink low-ridding banshees)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:12:08 +1000

Message no. 7 > This was the only thing I had feared about doing a NAGTTW... It's
> called "campanilism" in italian, or Thinking That Your Country IS
> Better Than (almost) All Others... In other words, olafur has given
> us a MIGHTILY optimistic view of iceland in the 2050es. Now, yes, it
> is all very detalied and realistic, but will everyone do the same or
> will someone have the bravery to describe a real cyberpunk environment
> instead of this sort of wishy-washy sort-of-cyberpunk (mixed with a
> little Star Wars and a hint that HE himself would like to be a
> shaman) stuff?

True enough, but if you get someone who isn't from the country in
question to write the material, you're almost guaranteed to piss
*everyone* off.

As far as it goes, I'm trying to put some realism (or whatever you call
it) in the Australian info I'm writing.... I'll admit that it's not easy,
though.

BTW as a side note, does Iceland really have *that* much chance of
producing energy themselves?? If they buy their energy from GB, just
think how guilty they are of contributing to the multitude of nuclear
metldowns that occured in England.

> I mean, if you had come from Great Britain, would you have written
> the England Sourcebook??? I takes guts to detail your own country's
> future as a wasted, polluted, infested, violent, poor, underground
> rainy a**hole in the universe, especially when other people describe
> theirs as shiny, magical, rightly rebellious fishing and clean-energy
> producing havens (who had the strength to rise up after a big
> disaster, to top it all).
> But isn't pessimism what cyberpunk is all about?
>

Ah, but if you've read anything else written by Carl Sargeant and Marc
Gascoigne (sp?) you'll realise that they have a severe munchkin elf
fetish.... That attitude and the resulting social situation in
England (ie pro-elf bias) pissed me off more than the rest of the sourcebook
combined.

Just my 2 nuyen worth.

Bleach

From:	Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:23:52 +1000

Message no. 8 > What I'm trying to say is, Paolo has a point. Most of the world is pretty
> fragged up in the 2050s, even though just about everyone will tell you
> that the country they themselves live in, will not be affected in the way
> FASA says it is. (For two good examples, look at the British response to
> the London Sourcebook, and the Germans' tales about the Germany SB.)
>
Some of us think that there are genuine reasons why we should be icons of
purity and light, though. *grin*

I don't live in GB or Germany, but I've seen the pictures (multitudes of
them; My dad's camera mad)..... I can honestly say that I haven't seen
anywhere in Australia half as bad as a lot (most) of Europe. Tokyo city is
another good example of a grimy, dirty, alien place.

It generally has something to do with the number of people that live in
the area, I think. In Australia, Sydney is far more of a drekhole than
Brisbane, and it is four times as big... I can't find any other reason.

I'd have to say that the only places you get no pollution, and unspoilt
wilderness are where there aren't any people. In defense of the person
from Iceland, there aren't very many people there, so an unspoilt country
could be plausible.... it's also not going to be utilised very much (ie
raped for resources) due to climate.

Australia is also currently reasonably unpolluted (or whatever), though we
are fast changing that.

One thing that should be kept in mind is that Aus. and Iceland are both
really small countries population wise...... Frankly, what kind of
runner market would there be in a town of 600,000 people?

[snip]
> However, I also don't think this
> should turn into a race to make your country/area the worst off in the
> world :)
>
You'd have to try hard to make somewhere worse than GB.... and you can't
get much more fine and dandy/sweetness and light than Tir Tairngire.

*grin*

BTW when we finally get something together regarding Aust, feel free to
call me (us) to task if our view isn't dingy and pessimistic enough.

Bleach

From:	Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:26:26 +1000

Message no. 9 > |However, I also don't think this
> |should turn into a race to make your country/area the worst off in the
> |world :)
>
> Great, now I gotta re-write Albuquerque. And I woulda won too :)
> (look forward to riggers with dayglow pink low-ridding banshees)
>

And they'd have whale skin hubcaps, all-leather cow interior, and big
brown baby seal eyes for headlights?

(Gratuitous D.Leary quote)

From:	olafur gunnarsson <olafurg@******.IS>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 1996 01:27:43 GMT

Message no. 10 >BTW as a side note, does Iceland really have *that* much chance of
>producing energy themselves?? If they buy their energy from GB, just
>think how guilty they are of contributing to the multitude of nuclear
>metldowns that occured in England.

Hmm :) Iceland already supplies its own energy has done so since before
world war II
All done with Hydro power so its mostly clean.So i can Personaly say that
Iceland would have no part in the English Meltdowns except maybe gain from
them due to the sudden need for power for England
-Olafur G

From:	olafur gunnarsson <olafurg@******.IS>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 1996 01:31:06 GMT

Message no. 11 >One thing that should be kept in mind is that Aus. and Iceland are both
>really small countries population wise...... Frankly, what kind of
>runner market would there be in a town of 600,000 people?

Thats also something ive factored into the deal. Iceland Curretn Population
Is 260.000+
people so a loss of 30.000 to vitas and something like 5000 more to the
Calamitys of 2011 isnt a soft blow almost ewery family would be affected and
no one wouldnt be mourning a friend.I think these would have some deep
psycological after affects.
-Olafur G

From:	olafur gunnarsson <olafurg@******.IS>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 1996 01:40:56 GMT

Message no. 12 Maybe i should ad. In defence of my timeline is that like marty said Icelands
Nature is wery pure. Pollution is next to non existant, you can drink water
from a tap
with no after effects.The weather while cold during winter is usualy pretty
good during summer. and altough a part of the interior is taken up by some
large glaciers.
it leaves a great deal of arrable land near the coast and in many valleys.
Oh and By the way im not a Shaman Fan :)(personaly when i get to play wich
is to damn little. I usualy play Phys Adepts or Former Military officers or
something like that). Its simply that Icelanders are Unfortunatly
Highly supersticious (at least it looks like that to me) with something like
49% beleaving in supernatural powers and most of that 49% beleaves In
somekind of Nature power.There fore i decided to translate that into the
fact that In 205+ Iceland would have an high Porportion of Shamans And Idol
Mages (Using the German Sourcebook Idol System but moved over to The Aesir
Odin Frey Forseti Tyr Hod Vali Thor Loki etc etc)
-Olafur G

From:	Pete <Pete@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:46:48 +0000

Message no. 13 In article <199611062023.VAA13396@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Paolo Falco, FoxMaster said on 19:15/ 6 Nov 96...
>
>> > 2013.Rebuilding of the capital Reykjavik begin with parts of the
>> > old city being repaired and flood walls being set into place hopes
>> > are that much of the city can be reclaimed using technology
>> > perfected by Holland.
>
>PLEASE replace that H-word by something else...

How about T --- Tulipland <grin>

>[rest of Iceland timeline snipped]

>I started re-working my original Netherlands article (from about 2 years
>ago) today, and I must say I noticed much the same thing about my own text
>(actually, I noticed it when I read this message). It's too bright, too
>nice, and too unaffected by the general misery of the world...

The general problem is that people will favour their own country in the
better light, the problem I have with this, is that it is American
companies who write these games, it is America that is seen through
tinted glasses if not rose coloured, I object strongly to Britain being
reduced to a Fascist regime, very strongly, and I believe the majority
of the British public would as well, possibly to the point of rebellion,
the rest of Europe may be happy, but Brits have *long* memories
(sometimes to the point of ridiculous).

>What I'm trying to say is, Paolo has a point. Most of the world is pretty
>fragged up in the 2050s, even though just about everyone will tell you
>that the country they themselves live in, will not be affected in the way
>FASA says it is. (For two good examples, look at the British response to
>the London Sourcebook, and the Germans' tales about the Germany SB.)

Paolo *does* have a point, but looking at the way FASA deal with any
country outside of the US, is IMHO disgusting... they write off huge
tracts of land with barely thought out descriptions that are designed to
prevent them having to write any follow up sourcebooks, just take a look
at how many sourcebooks are aimed purely at the US continent, and how
many *aren't* aimed at the next most important part of the world Europe.

OK, we *should* consider the dark future of our own countries, I'm in
full agreement with this, and my Britain of 2057-62 is a blackly
terrifying place, but it is an active place, not a stagnating fascist
regime due to self destruct and take the country down with it.

FASA cleverly designed the British regime to make it almost impossible
to use Shadowrunners int he country...

Now be honest... how many of you run or have run in 205* England (beyond
Imago and the other sad module), how many of you have visited Europe and
run there????

I much prefer the cyberpunk sourcebooks for the Pacific Rim, Europe and
the UK, they offer a brighter future, but also leave huge amounts of
room for intrigue, all FASA have done with the UK and Europe is lock it
down so tight it no longer can breathe. Does anyone here seriously
believe that the US will be the only power left in the world after all
the SR events ....

I for one do not want to go out and buy an American flag to wave, for
all it's problems and foibles, for all the stupid things that happen
here, and the wierd ideas the government and socially conscious have
about what they think we should do in our lives.... I happen to *like*
the country I live in. And I happen to like much of Europe.

So, excuse me for re-writing much of the source material, and not using
the "nightmare future" that is Cyberpunk.... (erm... FASA future is not
dark Cyberpunk anyway... it's kinda medium gray)

Look at the Europe/UK sourcebooks for Cyberpunk and although the books
are again written by Americans, with little concept of the countries
they are describing, they give a different view of future Europe and UK,
one which fits *my* vision better than the "Right we've done it. The
future of that other part of the world is locked down, we don't have to
bother with it anymore.." attitude that FASA showed towards what is
today a major world power, and will retain much of that strength in the
future.

Although much of Europe may fragment, as the USSR has today... but not
in the way FASA has written off the oldest civilisation in the history
of this planet. Europe and the UK, has centuries of culture and history
to fall back on, and the people themselves have a desire to do things
that will help their own countries... Why should the US be the only
nation, with their short history, to survive into the next century as
the bastion of freedom, when Europe et al is left to fester and decay.

Sorry, but I disagree with FASA.

I do however, agree with Paolo and Gurth. Don't favour your own country
in a glorious light showing how they have survived into the future
intact and perfect, a glowing representation to the rest of the "dark"
world. The future should be dark and depressing in keeping with the
"Cyberpunk" theme, but not locked down so tight that it is a case of "no
further options".

>I agree that a too optimistic view of a country isn't what fits in with
>the rest of the SR game world, so it would be a good idea for everyone to
>keep in mind that this isn't a competition to see who can make a country
>that's better off than all the others. However, I also don't think this
>should turn into a race to make your country/area the worst off in the
>world :)

On this point Gurth, you will have no argument from me.

Just my two penneth worth.

--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:17:17 +0100

Message no. 14 Marty said on 8:23/ 7 Nov 96...

> I'd have to say that the only places you get no pollution, and unspoilt
> wilderness are where there aren't any people. In defense of the person
> from Iceland, there aren't very many people there, so an unspoilt country
> could be plausible.... it's also not going to be utilised very much (ie
> raped for resources) due to climate.

A thing to keep in mind: there is *no* real nature left in western Europe.
Sure, there are forests and stuff, but those have either been planted, or
allowed to grow after the original ones were almost completely gone.
Around the 13th century or so, you'd have had major trouble finding a
10-meter tall tree.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The flat earth society has been here today.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	"Paolo Falco, FoxMaster" <Falco@****.IT>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 1996 21:45:54 +0000

Message no. 15 olafur gunnarsson this did say to a FoxMaster about Re: NAGTW Iceland
part...

> Maybe i should ad. In defence of my timeline is that like marty
> said Icelands Nature is wery pure. Pollution [...] Oh and By the way
> im not a Shaman Fan :)

I was joking, actually... :)

> Its simply that Icelanders are Unfortunatly Highly supersticious
> [...]

No need to excuse yourself... I wasn't attacking *you* (I wasn't
_attacking_ anyone, just putting a "caveat" on the whole process),
it's just that your timeline happened to be the first one that
arrived. What I was trying to prevent was a general trend, then, if
you think that your timeline is OK and the others agree, fair with
me...

What I was trying to establish was a general guide for timelines
(more a discussion about it, I'm not that kind of petty wannabee
dictator), by implying some things:
(all points should be preceded by warnings: "JUST MY OPINIONS!" and
"ACCORDING TO ME")
1) Of course the place you describe should be in some way interesting
to the SR world: we don't want to read 20 artciles or so about
nothing, do we?
2) The interesting part should be mostly adherent to FASA's canons
(ie a mildly darkish fantasy-cyberpuk setting), but you should avoid
trying to make your country better than others, AND ESPECIALLY avoid
doing it EXCEEDINGLY better than it NOW is! (At least if you don't
live in a severely underdeveloped country)
3) try to retain some sense of humor... The Havai'i thing was mildly
good in this. Nothing actually exceptional, with the "paradise" part
in some way exagerrated and contrasted by the terrorist part.
4) Do not forget what makes your country special TO FOREIGN people!
It's useless to point out something very important to you as someone
that lives there, unless people from other countries can get the
gravity/fun/specialness of the thing!

Anyways, the more I think about Iceland, the more I think it's one of
the countries entitled to be the "better off" ones... The low pollution
and energy generation powers are very good, but, for example, what
about its VERY important role as a tactical "safehouse" in the so called
GIUK gap?

Well, anyway, I was just pointing out a danger. Not specifically
saying I didn't like everything... We can discuss about that later.
And no, I wasn't proposing that you write about places you have never
seen, I was just saying that "parochianism" (as I've learnt it's
called in english) is a very direct effect of the fact that the
writers usually don't want to reduce their country to a barren
desert. And if everyone did that, we would have a very boring world
of barren deserts, by the way... :)

Thank you all. I was expecting much more criticism! :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
pAoLo FaLco | "Casual match in a very fry field fire and ash
(a FoxMaster) | is the season's yield" (Suzanne Vega)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2717
Paradoxal Skating page for Gamers with AnarcoLemming view on life

From:	Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:45:46 +1000

Message no. 16 > >One thing that should be kept in mind is that Aus. and Iceland are both
> >really small countries population wise...... Frankly, what kind of
> >runner market would there be in a town of 600,000 people?
>
> Thats also something ive factored into the deal. Iceland Curretn Population
> Is 260.000+
> people so a loss of 30.000 to vitas and something like 5000 more to the
> Calamitys of 2011 isnt a soft blow almost ewery family would be affected and
> no one wouldnt be mourning a friend.I think these would have some deep
> psycological after affects.
> -Olafur G
>
You missed my point. I live in Australia. Sydney currently has 4million
people. Brisbane has 1 million. This place is hicksville compared to
somewhere like America, or China or Japan. Now, consider that all of
Iceland has less than half of Brisbane's population.... It's not exactly a
big place on the world scale.

How many murders are currently commited in Iceland per year?? How many
murders does the average shadowrunning team commit per year? I think
you'll find that the numbers are unequal....heavily in the runners favour.
Unless the social situation in Iceland has totally gone down the tubes,
any run with any violence at all will be BIG news.

It's the same in Australia.

Bleach

From:	Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:56:19 +1000

Message no. 17 > Paolo *does* have a point, but looking at the way FASA deal with any
> country outside of the US, is IMHO disgusting... they write off huge
> tracts of land with barely thought out descriptions that are designed to
> prevent them having to write any follow up sourcebooks, just take a look
> at how many sourcebooks are aimed purely at the US continent, and how
> many *aren't* aimed at the next most important part of the world Europe.
>
In defnce of FASA; Look at how many of their customers are American, and
take into consideration that they DO try and get native authors for their
sourcebooks.

I do agree though that it seems most of the rest of the world is screwed
and america is reasonably 'good'..,.. Again that's because most of their
customers would like to play in america and the rest of the world is
therefore somewhere for the GM's to send their players when they need a
really nasty place that doesn't fit with normal game play.

> OK, we *should* consider the dark future of our own countries, I'm in
> full agreement with this, and my Britain of 2057-62 is a blackly
> terrifying place, but it is an active place, not a stagnating fascist
> regime due to self destruct and take the country down with it.
>
Kill the elf overlords!!
Sorry; Just had to put my two cents worth in.

> FASA cleverly designed the British regime to make it almost impossible
> to use Shadowrunners int he country...
>
True, and that sucks big-time. BTW, consider that it was Sargent and
Gascoigne who wrote the book. Take the issue up with them, instead.

> Now be honest... how many of you run or have run in 205* England (beyond
> Imago and the other sad module), how many of you have visited Europe and
> run there????
>
True enough. Berlin is a bitch'n place to run (anarchy=paradise), but I
don't bother with either England or Ireland.... for different reasons.

> room for intrigue, all FASA have done with the UK and Europe is lock it
> down so tight it no longer can breathe. Does anyone here seriously
> believe that the US will be the only power left in the world after all
> the SR events ....
>
I'd say it isn't a power at all, but that's just my dislike of power (in
others) that is speaking there.

> I for one do not want to go out and buy an American flag to wave, for
> all it's problems and foibles, for all the stupid things that happen
> here, and the wierd ideas the government and socially conscious have
> about what they think we should do in our lives.... I happen to *like*
> the country I live in. And I happen to like much of Europe.
>
Yay!!! Thankyou! A not-so-patroitic american.
*grin*

> the "nightmare future" that is Cyberpunk....
> (erm... FASA future is not
> dark Cyberpunk anyway... it's kinda medium gray)
>
With touches of fuzzy pink.

> Although much of Europe may fragment, as the USSR has today... but not
> in the way FASA has written off the oldest civilisation in the history
> of this planet.

You Caucasio-phile, you. Consider the Inca's and the Mayans, etc. It is
the oldest still existing covilisation, perhaps... and I'd dispute that WRT
Japan and or China, in any case.

> Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations
> which we can perform without thinking about them.
>
Ie- Civilisation = Brain death????

Nice article, by the way.

Bleach

From:	The Jestyr <s421539@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:21:48 +1000

Message no. 18 > Maybe i should ad. In defence of my timeline is that like marty said Icelands
> Nature is wery pure. Pollution is next to non existant, you can drink water
> from a tap
> with no after effects.

I should hope so!

Hmmm... looking at my response, and thinking about what I"ve heard of
most european and american countries, perhaps we *are* justified as
setting Iceland and Australia as two relatively "nice" countries,
although not without their own problems of course.

Hey... there's a thought. Marty? How about say Australia USED to be like
that, then say around the 2020s-2030s there was a HUGE immigration influx
when it became apparent that Australia was one of the few countries left
that was tolerable to live in.

...Which leads to a very strict tightening of the immigration laws, and
much of Australia's remaining military would be devoted to patrolling the
coastline, keeping out illegal immigrants.

You might need your "papers" a lot more than you do now (reminiscent of
the old despotic regimes!) just to prove that you're legitimately allowed
to be in the country, if there's a big problem with illegals.

It could be fun, giving the runners reasons to be in Australia and then
making them jump through hoops to get the right passes and visas to stay
- lots of plot hooks.

Just my 0.02 worth... (0.02 of whatever you like.)

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

From:	Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:01:02 +1000

Message no. 19 > Hmmm... looking at my response, and thinking about what I"ve heard of
> most european and american countries, perhaps we *are* justified as
> setting Iceland and Australia as two relatively "nice" countries,
> although not without their own problems of course.
>
We (Clavin and I) were thinking perhaps that the mana storms should be most
severe in those areas that have suffered some kind of environmental
damage..... either through over-mining or over-farming

Also, what do you guys (collectively) think of the possibility that the
remaining aboriginals are learning to control the mana storms to some
exent? It means that the outback of Australia could be opening up again
to exploration (and explotation), but it has to be done in a way that
doesn't slot the aborigines off.

> Hey... there's a thought. Marty? How about say Australia USED to be like
> that, then say around the 2020s-2030s there was a HUGE immigration influx
> when it became apparent that Australia was one of the few countries left
> that was tolerable to live in.
>
My thoughts exactly; I was condisering making the active part of the
Aus. military mostly small naval craft and helicopters, in order to stop
smuggling, stop (dissappear) immigrants, and fight the occasional
skirmish with the neighbours.

> You might need your "papers" a lot more than you do now (reminiscent of
> the old despotic regimes!) just to prove that you're legitimately allowed
> to be in the country, if there's a big problem with illegals.
>
Heh heh; The much maligned 'Australia card'..... One thing that I was
considering was beefing up the Fed. Police, giving them more power
compared to today. Perhaps if they are the 'thought police', and if
they policed immigrant's affairs they'd be suitably scary... Perhaps a
merger of ASIO and The Feds?

Any thoughts or comments out there guys?

Bleach

From:	Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:28:48 +1100

Message no. 20 At 01:40 AM 7/11/96 GMT, you wrote:
SNIP!
>it leaves a great deal of arrable land near the coast and in many valleys.
>Oh and By the way im not a Shaman Fan :)
SNIP!
>-Olafur G
>
I hope you're not talking about me!

Shaman ;)
>

From:	olafur gunnarsson <olafurg@******.IS>
Subject:	Re: NAGTW Iceland part
Date:	Thu, 28 Nov 1996 01:43:11 GMT

Message no. 21 snip me´n shaman not really.. But i think that uhmm :) Totem humping sh=
amans
should be
charged by the courts for animal abouse.
-Olafur G

Politics is simply the art of running the zoo from the inside.

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