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Message no. 1
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Plastic Guns
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 00:04:44 -0700 (PDT)
I am not completly sure how to corrdctly make submit missions to NERPS.
So here goes nothing.....

Less I forget, I copyright everything I do; assuming that the final
editing is mutually acceptable, the copyright notice is printed with the
article, and NERPS is distributed at no charge; I intend to grant first
electronic serial rights for this submission to NERPS at no charge.

David Hinkley
12 May 1996
dhinkley@***.org

------------------------
PLASTIC WEAPONS

All Rights Reserved
Copyright 1996
David G. Hinkley


>>>>>[while wandering the Matrix I came across this, thought it might be of

interest to some of you]<<<<<<
--Phantom

>>>>>[Just wandering...right, Information Circulars are for internal use
only.
The only place the Phantom could get this is off one Lone Star's Computer
systems. If it is authentic.......]<<<<<<
--Electronic Wizzard

>>>>>[Its authentic, I have seen a hard copy]<<<<<<
--Anonimo Beccacciniero


Department of Surveillance, Division of Investigation Austin
Information Circular #561034A
Dist: All Departments, All Divisions

The following items have recently been seized during investigations in
Seattle, Austin, and Atlanta. Officers are advised to adjust their search and
surveillance methods to reflect the unique characteristics of these weapons.

COMPOSITE SHOTGUN: A double-barreled weapon manufactured of ceramic and plastic
composites, utilizing ammunition of the same materials. This as this weapon
contains no metal parts of any kind it is not detectable by metal detectors,
when disassembled it is difficult to identify with X-ray scanning, and due to
the limited amount of propellant contained in the ammunition chem-sniffers are
of limited use.

The composite material used is off white in color, however two of the
specimens seized had been painted, one to resemble a conventional shotgun the
other in a woodland camouflage pattern. It is believed that these are part of a
limited production run. Ballistic examination of this weapon shows it to be as
effective as the conventional shotgun against soft targets. insufficient
ammunition was seized with the test samples to provide for full testing. Medical
Department tests reveal that the composite flechettes used in the shells are
X-ray transparent making wound treatment difficult.


PLASTIC ROCKET PISTOL: This weapon will chamber standard Transcon 7 mm Gyrojet
ammunition, but the example was seized with a partial clip of explosive
ammunition made of composite materials. The weapon is light grey in color about
15 cm long and weights .2 kg empty. The detachable springless magazine holds 8
rounds. This weapon is not detectable at all by metal detectors, when
disassembled it is difficult to identify with X-ray scanning, and due to the
limited amount of propellant contained in the ammunition chem-sniffers are of
limited use. Ballistic examination of this weapon shows it to be as effective as
the conventional Gyrojet against soft targets. Medical Department tests reveal
that the fragments from the explosive rounds are X-ray transparent making wound
treatment difficult.


While these weapons are similar in concept, close examination of the
materials and manufacturing techniques used indicates that it is extremely
likely that they are being manufactured by different organizations and were
designed by different individuals. Further information will be released as it
becomes available in the R&D Evaluation Sections regular monthly Tech Bulletin.

Headquarters Lone Star is extremely interested in identifying the source
of these and similar weapons as well as detection methods effective in
identifying individuals carrying items of this type. Class 28C funding is
available to reimburse out of pocket expenses associated with the collection of
accurate information regarding the source of these items. Include expense
vouchers with your reports, signed receipts are not required. Section 16,
Department of Surveillance is to be informed immediately of the recovery of, or
information regarding the source of these items.

>>>>>[Class 28C funds?]<<<<<
--Bugsy

>>>>>[Class 28C funds come from Lone Star Headquarters, Austin and are not
charged against the local Lone Star office. The use of these funds for an
investigation of this type indicates that senior officials are extremely
interested in this matter. Of even more interest is the total lack of
information relating to how the samples tested came into Lone Star's control.
Normally one would expect that some information would be released to provide
some leads for investigators to start from.]<<<<<
--Shadowrider

>>>>>[The Star is out on the street looking hard and their fixed security
posts
are doing more frisks then normal ]<<<<<
--Whispering Death

>>>>>[The question is who is making these, I for one would like to get one
of my
own.]<<<<
--Bugsy

>>>>>[Good luck, finding the source of these would be hard enough, now that
the
Man is looking it will be harder yet. Be careful that you are not caught up in a
sting operation]<<<<
--Anonimo Beccacciniero


================================
GAMEMASTER'S INFORMATION
================================

The circumstances under which player characters could come into possession
or in contact with of one of these weapons has been left intentionally vague.
They could be the seed for one of two variations of an adventure. The first is
the players seek out the manufacture of one of these and then sell that
information to Lone Star or other agency. The other is the players attempt to
obtain one or more of these weapons for their own use. In some respects the
second should be easier as there is no need to identify the maker or his
motives. However, given Lone Star's interest in the weapons the use of them
should attract a lot of unwanted attention.

The manufacturer of these weapons could be either an individual or
corporation making them for sale for a profit. The weapons would be available
to anyone who can afford to buy them. The sale would be conducted through
intermediatories, cut-outs and similar methods. The buyer would have little
opportunity to meet the maker or know the location of the manufacturing
facility.

The other possibility is that the weapons were made by or specifically for
a terrorist organization or special operation team. If this is the case the only
way the players should be able to get one is by either being a member of the
organization or by taking one from the hands of a deceased member. However the
maker or supplier of the weapons should be easier to locate.

Given the interest in these weapons (from both shadowrunners and Lone Star)
it is extremely likely that cheap knock-offs (some completely unsafe to use)
will show up as will a variety of scams, traps and the like. To further
complicate matters is the possibility that both weapons types are in existence
locally, and that one is being made for profit and the other by a terrorist
organization for its own use.

========================
WEAPONS DATA
========================

Conceal Ammo Mode Damage Choke Weight Avail Cost SI
Plastic Shotgun 6* 2(b) SS 8S 2 .5 kg GMs Discretion

Notes: Legality rating of this weapon and ammunition is 1-K. This weapon can not
accept a silencer, suppressor, gas vent system or barrel mounted accessory. It
can not chamber or fire conventional shotgun ammunition of any type. . Use
Light pistol range table. *This weapon is not detectable by metal detectors,
or X-ray type machines. The target number for chem sniffers is 14.


Type Conceal Ammo Mode Dam Weight Avail Cost SI
Plastic Gyrojet Light 5* 12(c) SA 7L .2 kg GMs Discretion

Notes: Legality rating of this weapon is 1-K. These pistols can not accept
silencers, suppressor, or gas vent systems. While a GyroJet pistol is not silent
and the sound of the pistol firing is distinctive, it does not sound like a gun
shot. *This weapon is not detectable by metal detectors, or X-ray type machines.
The target number for chem sniffers is 14. Damage when using conventional
GyroJet ammunition is 6L and the Target Number for detection by metal detectors
and X-ray type detectors is 8 (of the ammunition)

-------------END------------
Message no. 2
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 11:19:57 +0100
dhinkley@***.org said on 0:04/13 May 96...

> Less I forget, I copyright everything I do; assuming that the final
> editing is mutually acceptable, the copyright notice is printed with the
> article, and NERPS is distributed at no charge; I intend to grant first
> electronic serial rights for this submission to NERPS at no charge.

I will remove the copyright notices from individual articles; in their
place, there will be a general warning at the beginning of the book
stating that the articles' copyrights are owned by their authors.

(Do we *really* need this legal hassle?)

> >>>>>[while wandering the Matrix I came across this, thought it might
be of
> interest to some of you]<<<<<<
> --Phantom

How about adding time/date stamps to these posts? If everybody would
please keep them at mid to late 2057, we have some internal consistency :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Magazines and free soda.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 3
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>dhinkley@***.org said on 0:04/13 May 96...
>
>> Less I forget, I copyright everything I do; assuming that the final
>> editing is mutually acceptable, the copyright notice is printed with the
>> article, and NERPS is distributed at no charge; I intend to grant first
>> electronic serial rights for this submission to NERPS at no charge.
>
>I will remove the copyright notices from individual articles; in their
>place, there will be a general warning at the beginning of the book
>stating that the articles' copyrights are owned by their authors.
>
>(Do we *really* need this legal hassle?)
>
Unfortunatly, Yes. The copyright is our only protection (such as it is) from
having our text ripped off. Your solution is basicly a good one providing. that
the copyright notice stay appended to the various postings to and from the NERPS
list and that a list of the articles, authors and copyright dates be included in
the final document. I would be happy to perform that function when the time
comes.

>> >>>>>[while wandering the Matrix I came across this, thought it
might be of
>> interest to some of you]<<<<<<
>> --Phantom
>
>How about adding time/date stamps to these posts? If everybody would
>please keep them at mid to late 2057, we have some internal consistency :)
>
No problem, I intended to when I found out what the "date" is. I would
like to wait till other comments are recieved and then do a single correction
and update.

By the way is this your only problem with the text? Or are you waiting
for tothers to make thiers first. And lastly are the two artiles you sent under
seperate cover the other day open for comment?

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:09:14 +0100
dhinkley@***.org said on 0:04/13 May 96...

As promised, here's my comments on your article. Some of the things I'll
add are shadow comments which you might want to consider adding to the
original.

> The following items have recently been seized during investigations in
> Seattle, Austin, and Atlanta.

Just a minor point, but LS doesn't patrol Atlanta :) At least, they're not
mentioned under Law Enforcement on page 36 of the Neo-A Guide to North
America, which, admittedly, is from 2052.

> COMPOSITE SHOTGUN: A double-barreled weapon manufactured of ceramic and
> plastic composites, utilizing ammunition of the same materials. This as
> this weapon contains no metal parts of any kind it is not detectable
> by metal detectors, when disassembled it is difficult to identify with
> X-ray scanning, and due to the limited amount of propellant contained
> in the ammunition chem-sniffers are of limited use.

>>>>>[Can you fire normal ammo from these shotguns?]<<<<<
-- 10-36

> The other possibility is that the weapons were made by or specifically for
> a terrorist organization or special operation team. If this is the case the only
> way the players should be able to get one is by either being a member of the
> organization or by taking one from the hands of a deceased member. However the
> maker or supplier of the weapons should be easier to locate.

The thing to ask yourself here, as a GM, is who would ave sufficient
resources to develop and build a totally new gun made from materials that
haven't been used for gun design on any real scale...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Just kidding. Maybe...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: TENSEN2@***.com
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:06:17 -0400
In a message dated 96-05-14 05:08:50 EDT, you write:

>> The following items have recently been seized during investigations
in
>
>> Seattle, Austin, and Atlanta.
>
>Just a minor point, but LS doesn't patrol Atlanta :) At least, they're not
>mentioned under Law Enforcement on page 36 of the Neo-A Guide to North
>America, which, admittedly, is from 2052.
>
>

Contacts change frequently. I'd be surprised with security contracts if
anything would be the same in 5 years.
Message no. 6
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 14 May 1996, "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

[Snip]

>> The following items have recently been seized during investigations in
>> Seattle, Austin, and Atlanta.
>
>Just a minor point, but LS doesn't patrol Atlanta :) At least, they're not
>mentioned under Law Enforcement on page 36 of the Neo-A Guide to North
>America, which, admittedly, is from 2052.

You have a point, on the other hand Lone Star is a mega-corp and could have
operations in areas that they don't have a contract to provide police services.
To be honest, when I wrote this I was looking for a third large city in North
America to make the sentence work as much as furthering the concept.


>> COMPOSITE SHOTGUN: A double-barreled weapon manufactured of ceramic and

[Snip]

>>>>>>[Can you fire normal ammo from these
shotguns?]<<<<<
>-- 10-36

No
>
>> The other possibility is that the weapons were made by or specifically
for
>> a terrorist organization or special operation team. If this is the case the
only
>> way the players should be able to get one is by either being a member of the
>> organization or by taking one from the hands of a deceased member. However
the
>> maker or supplier of the weapons should be easier to locate.
>
>The thing to ask yourself here, as a GM, is who would ave sufficient
>resources to develop and build a totally new gun made from materials that
>haven't been used for gun design on any real scale...
>
From my research, the techniques and materials used to make a weapon of this
type are within the capablities of a 'home' workshop. Granted the operator would
need to know what he was doing and a 'bit' of expermentation would be needed. I
belive that either of these weapons could be made today. As to who in the
Shadowrun universe could design and build them in limited quanities. A single
specialist working in a moderatly well equiped workshop. A small plastics
casting/molding firm could make them in quanity if someone provided them with a
set of plans and a prototype. And any of the corps could bury the manufacture of
weapons of this type in thier operations. And lastly governments have the
capablity. These are terrorist weapons of no legitmate use, but of great value
to a shadowrunners, terrorists and covert operation teams (be them public or
private) and none of these would want information regarding the source to be
come public knowlege.

From a game design point of view, I belive in maintaining 'game balance'
when developing new "toys". The ablity to move these weapons through weapons
detectors with limited risk of detection needed to be balanced. My choice was to
make the weapon and anyone that used them them subject of much intrest by a wide
varity of people and organizations.

I also belive that maximum amount of room needs to be left for the GM to
tailor an item of this type to his campaign, hense the vagueness regarding the
origin of the weapons. My intentionis to create a seed for an adventure or
adventures more then to create a super weapon. I can go into greater detail
about the various posiblities assuming the space is available. (Warning..I have
done extensive grad work in history, I can be extremeely verbous with little
effort).

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
Message no. 7
From: GKoth2258@***.com
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:11:33 -0400
True, Atlanta does not have a law enforcement contract as of 2052, and since
that is the only info we really have on that subject, another city should be
selected.

You could go with New York. If I remember right, law enforcement is
provided, by block, by NYPD Inc, Lone Star, Knight Errant, and a few others.
With law enforcement so balkanized, it would all be easily explainable.

And either Los Angeles or San Fransisco are both also excellent candidates.

Finding another large city in North America isn't hard to do...

The big thing that really bothers me is the concept. If plastic weapons are
so easy to make, why aren't more of them made? Given a strong central
government, I could understand why no one would touch them. But with large
amounts of authority in the hands of the corps, why wouldn't they make these
items? There isn't really anything stopping them.

Okay, local regs say no plastic guns. So that means the corps can't sell
boatloads of them on the open market. That still leaves a huge market
available, from the shadows to other extra-territorial corps.

Maybe if the guns weren't quite as good as the real thing? You do have to
remember that weapons research has been deliberately slowed by FASA, as has
much "research" in general.

But oh well. It's just my opinion after all...

The Great Big Extra Sharp Cheddar
Message no. 8
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 15 May 1996, GKoth2258@***.com wrote:
>True, Atlanta does not have a law enforcement contract as of 2052, and since
>that is the only info we really have on that subject, another city should be
>selected.
>
>You could go with New York. [snip]
>And either Los Angeles or San Fransisco are both also excellent candidates.
[Snip]
Thank you, I will consider your recomendations
>
>The big thing that really bothers me is the concept. If plastic weapons are
>so easy to make, why aren't more of them made? Given a strong central
>government, I could understand why no one would touch them. But with large
>amounts of authority in the hands of the corps, why wouldn't they make these
>items? There isn't really anything stopping them.
[snip]

Plastic Guns of the type discussed are as about as easy to make as a
more conventional metal gun if the designer/builder has the necessary knowlage,
tools and raw materials. Every runner or man in the street can not make one, but
on the flip side you do not need a factory either.

As to why the market is not flooded with them, my thoughts are

1. It is a terrorist's or Covert-op weapon, if you are discovered (say
via a routine frisking) you will not be released. They will want to talk long
and hard with you, asking where you got it, what are you planning to do and the
like.

2.Niether design is as good as a "real" gun. Both are better then
nothing but not alot. ( or at least that is my intention...It is hard to tread
the the fine line between limited effectivness and total uselessness). Niether
weapon is high on my list of choices for a weapon to take to a fire fight,
unless my other choice is a knife.

3. Both weapons require special ammo (yes the pistol will chamber
regular gyrojet ammo, but at the cost of the concelability). The ammution will
be as hard if not harder to get then the weapon s self.

4. There is more money at less risk selling a few units at a high price
to carefully screened customers then trying the mass market approach.

>But oh well. It's just my opinion after all...

There is no "just" about it. Your opinion is as valuble and important as the
next man's. If I was not intrested in hearing other opinions I wuld not have
sent the article to NERPs.

Thank You for your thoughts

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
>
>
>
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:11:31 +0100
dhinkley@***.org said on 16:04/15 May 96...

> 1. It is a terrorist's or Covert-op weapon, if you are discovered (say
> via a routine frisking) you will not be released. They will want to talk long
> and hard with you, asking where you got it, what are you planning to do and the
> like.

Is that the UCAS government, the corps, or someone else? With this I mean:
where and by who is it outlawed? I know (a bit) about the troubles that
were stirred up (IRL) when Glock brought out its "plastic" pistols, and
which ended in Glock adding an X-ray-opaque dye to the plastic parts, but
would somehting like that also get started in the UCAS?

> 3. Both weapons require special ammo (yes the pistol will chamber
> regular gyrojet ammo, but at the cost of the concelability). The ammution will
> be as hard if not harder to get then the weapon s self.

In that case, you should probably also give stats for the ammo, even if
it's nothing more than "Use stats for regular ammo, but add +10/x4 to
Availability and +5 to Street Index" or something like that.


Another thing is that I feel there would be more shadowtalk in a post
like your article; if it's posted on a place like Shadowland, I'd see all
kinds of folks ask questions about the hows, whys, and wheres of these
guns.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een mens kan zich vergissen, maar dit is toch al te lullig...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:11:31 +0100
GKoth2258@***.com said on 14:11/15 May 96...

> You could go with New York. If I remember right, law enforcement is
> provided, by block, by NYPD Inc, Lone Star, Knight Errant, and a few others.
> With law enforcement so balkanized, it would all be easily explainable.

New York has Knight Errant, NYPD Inc., and Winter Systems, not Lone Star.
You could use at least Quebec, and at least not Chicago (obviously, but
also because they've got/had Eagle Security) or Washington.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een mens kan zich vergissen, maar dit is toch al te lullig...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 11
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
On Thu, 16 May 1996, "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>dhinkley@***.org said on 16:04/15 May 96...
>
>> 1. It is a terrorist's or Covert-op weapon, if you are discovered (say
>> via a routine frisking) you will not be released. They will want to talk long
>> and hard with you, asking where you got it, what are you planning to do and
the
>> like.
>
>Is that the UCAS government, the corps, or someone else? With this I mean:
>where and by who is it outlawed?
[snip]
Basicly whom ever in authorty finds the PC with one in his possesion, In
Seattle they both have a 1-K legality code (yes, K is military weapons but it
was the catagory that seemed to fit best [or is it least bad? :)] My opinion is
that because of the difficulty in detecting these weapons that no organization
(government, corp and other)would permit the possession of one of these [except
in the hands of thier covert ops team] in areas under thier control.


>> 3. Both weapons require special ammo (yes the pistol will chamber
>> regular gyrojet ammo, but at the cost of the concelability). The ammution
will
>> be as hard if not harder to get then the weapon s self.
>
>In that case, you should probably also give stats for the ammo, even if
>it's nothing more than "Use stats for regular ammo, but add +10/x4 to
>Availability and +5 to Street Index" or something like that.

Good Point, will incorperate coments to that effect in the next draft.
>
>
>Another thing is that I feel there would be more shadowtalk in a post
>like your article; if it's posted on a place like Shadowland, I'd see all
>kinds of folks ask questions about the hows, whys, and wheres of these
>guns.


Sounds reasonable, the question is how much space in the publication can be
devoted to this single game seed/ piece of gear?


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Plastic Guns
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:52:00 +0100
dhinkley@***.org said on 11:03/16 May 96...

> >Another thing is that I feel there would be more shadowtalk in a post
> >like your article; if it's posted on a place like Shadowland, I'd see all
> >kinds of folks ask questions about the hows, whys, and wheres of these
> >guns.
>
> Sounds reasonable, the question is how much space in the publication can be
> devoted to this single game seed/ piece of gear?

Quite some. What you have now will fill maybe two pages, so I don't realy
see why it couldn't be expanded a bit more. What could be nice is if you
(or someon else) could draw pictures of the guns and scan them, that way
people can visualize the weapons better.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een mens kan zich vergissen, maar dit is toch al te lullig...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Further Reading

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