Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 00:34:24 -0700
Just a recap of what *I* think we have pretty much agreed on. If
there are any errors or you don't agree, *please* reply.

The History of Psionics : Too long to post but I'm sure if you
want it, someone will send it to you or repost it.

Psionic Skills:
Psionic Projection/Manipulation: This skill enables the
character to control psionic energy and manipulate it to produce a
variety of effects (psionic powers).
Concentrations: Each Category will be a concentration

Psionic Theory: This skill gives the character a general
understanding of the functions and functioning of Psionics (makes you wish we
had this skill, eh?). It is vital in the developement of new psionic
powers (those devised during game play).
Concentrations: Power Design (Category), History
(Post-Awakening, Pre-Awakening), Philosophies (Scientific, Spiritual)

Psionic Categories: Divination, PsychoMetabolics, Telekinesis,
Telepathy, and CyberPsionics (I think I'm forgetting one, but I'm not
sure).
Psionic Categories will have a rating (purchased with Tech points
or Karma if later on). No power in the category can be greater than the
rating of the category. For example, I can not have Telekinetic Punch at
5 if my Telekinesis Category is only a 4.
There has also been talk of allowing a Psi to use powers that he
does not possess provided he has the Category that the power falls under.
The following limitations will occur when this happens:
The power can only be used at a force equal to half the Category
Rating. For example, if I have TK of 6, I can only use other powers that
I didn't pay for (whether by Karma or Tech Points) at a Force of 3 or
lower. Drain (when we come around to that) will be treated as double.
Using the above example, I use a TK power that I don't own at a force of
3. I will resist drain as if it had a Force of 6. If it were 2, I would
resist a 4 drain.

Karma Costs for Powers/Categories: I posted a suggestion and only
got feedback from Rob, so here it is again (revised)-
Cost for Gaining a New Category (at level one): 4 points
Cost for Raising a Category by one point (from 3 to 4): 1.5 X
current rating
Cost for Gaining a New Power (assuming you have the category): 1
point
Cost for Raising a Power by one point (from 3 to 4): Current
Rating
Tech Costs For Powers/Categories:
Cost for a Category: Level
Cost for a Power: Level
Simple, eh?

Psis and Spirits: Nothing definite, but their seems to be a
general consensus that Psi's should be able to control (via Mind Control)
or at least banish spirits. There also seems to be an agreement that Psis
should not be able to summon elementals or spirits. Alternately, Psionic
type "spirits" could be created.

Psi Pool: There have been those who want the Psi Pool to reflect
upon the Psi's Willpower or Intelligence or some combination of the two.
My idea was that it equal the Psi's Psionic Projection/Manipulation.

The Infamous Priority Table: To tell the truth, I have no idea
what we're doing on this one. We have had numerous proposals, none of
which I can remember in great enough detail to post or have a copy of at
the moment. What I can remember is that there will be three types of
Psis: Full Psis, Psi Adepts, and Wild Psis. Read FRODO LIVES! for the
latest in priority charts.

Cyberware's Effect on Psionics: The majority of us want to keep it
simple. Any essence loss (whether it is a datajack or a cyber-hand)
directly lowers the Psionic Attribute. There is a small faction
(currently being sought out) that want to make a chart or table that would
lessen Psionic loss if the Cyberware in question does not directly relate
to the head or nervous system.

Initiation: This is definitely agreed upon. It will exist, but we
haven't really talked about it much, other than determining that the
powers available will be called Meta-Psionics.

Astral Presence: The majority of those involved are leaning
towards allowing Astral Projection/Sensing as an Initiate power.

CyberPsionics - There has been a lot of debate as to if this power will
work. To be honest, I've lost track of what the damn thing does since
I've heard about 50 versions. So Rob, can you make another write-up,
possibly with a few examples?


That's it. Does anyone mind me recapping every so often (say
every week or after heavy activity)? I think it would help since there
are some who tend to lose track of everything being discussed and their
current status (not mentioning any names, Rob).


Kyle Kohler
Possible Psionic Recapper
Message no. 2
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 03:33:07 -0700
On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, Darth Vader wrote:

> > Just a recap of what *I* think we have pretty much agreed on. If
> > there are any errors or you don't agree, *please* reply.
>
> Happy to oblige dude :)
>
> > Psionic Skills:
> > Psionic Projection/Manipulation: This skill enables the
> > character to control psionic energy and manipulate it to produce a
> > variety of effects (psionic powers).
> > Concentrations: Each Category will be a concentration
>
> Ok here we go again! By saying this you imply that all psis
> have access to all categories. On the other hand this skill is of no
> use if you have separate ratings for all the categories.
> The problem is that the SR skill system only allows for a consentration or
> specialisation in a sigle category, so my PROPOSAL is to introduce a totally
> new group of skills called Psionic Manipulations (as in Magical skills - like
> sorcery, conjuring, and enchanting). Each categorie can have a separate skill
> and they will all fall under the Psionic Manipulations group....
> Well whadaya think?

I'll stick it in the next recap =). I made this up a little before
you presented your idea last night so that's why it isn't included.
Plus, there hasn't been much feedback on stuff as of late, which is why I
only included stuff that has been commented on.

>
> > Psionic Categories will have a rating (purchased with Tech points
> > or Karma if later on). No power in the category can be greater than the
> > rating of the category. For example, I can not have Telekinetic Punch at
> > 5 if my Telekinesis Category is only a 4.
> > There has also been talk of allowing a Psi to use powers that he
> > does not possess provided he has the Category that the power falls under.
> > The following limitations will occur when this happens:
> > The power can only be used at a force equal to half the Category
> > Rating. For example, if I have TK of 6, I can only use other powers that
> > I didn't pay for (whether by Karma or Tech Points) at a Force of 3 or
> > lower. Drain (when we come around to that) will be treated as double.
> > Using the above example, I use a TK power that I don't own at a force of
> > 3. I will resist drain as if it had a Force of 6. If it were 2, I would
> > resist a 4 drain.
>
> WAY COOL!!!
>
I wrote it didn't I?


> > Psis and Spirits: Nothing definite, but their seems to be a
> > general consensus that Psi's should be able to control (via Mind Control)
> > or at least banish spirits. There also seems to be an agreement that Psis
> > should not be able to summon elementals or spirits. Alternately, Psionic
> > type "spirits" could be created.
>
> One thing is certain, it should be HARD! We could either have an
> astronomical Target Number or make a MAstery(Initioation) Power out of it.
>

Initiation is a possibility, but I want to make sure we don't
push to much stuff into Initiation. At the rate we're going,. we'll have
twenty powers in Initiation!


Kyle Kohler

Who promises not to stay up too late tonight!
Message no. 3
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 01:01:22 -0400
On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, kyle kohler wrote:

> Just a recap of what *I* think we have pretty much agreed on. If
> there are any errors or you don't agree, *please* reply.
>
> The History of Psionics : Too long to post but I'm sure if you
> want it, someone will send it to you or repost it.

Just EMail me for a copy; it is not finished by any means, but we
need to set down mechanics first because that's more important.

> Psionic Skills:
> Psionic Projection/Manipulation: This skill enables the
> character to control psionic energy and manipulate it to produce a
> variety of effects (psionic powers).
> Concentrations: Each Category will be a concentration

Call it Psionic Manipulation.
Also -- Category = Discipline.

> Psionic Theory: This skill gives the character a general
> understanding of the functions and functioning of Psionics (makes you wish we
> had this skill, eh?). It is vital in the developement of new psionic
> powers (those devised during game play).
> Concentrations: Power Design (Category), History
> (Post-Awakening, Pre-Awakening), Philosophies (Scientific, Spiritual)

Magic Theory/History has specializations by Continent; I would
rather see Psionic Theory/History have specilizations by culture (make
more sense, right?)
Also -- is the Spiritual philosophy _really_ different enough?
I'm not sure myself, and would like to discuss it.

> Psionic Categories: Divination, PsychoMetabolics, Telekinesis,
> Telepathy, and CyberPsionics (I think I'm forgetting one, but I'm not
> sure).
> Psionic Categories will have a rating (purchased with Tech points
> or Karma if later on). No power in the category can be greater than the
> rating of the category. For example, I can not have Telekinetic Punch at
> 5 if my Telekinesis Category is only a 4.

Not sure about this -- once again, why do we need it?

> There has also been talk of allowing a Psi to use powers that he
> does not possess provided he has the Category that the power falls under.
> The following limitations will occur when this happens:
> The power can only be used at a force equal to half the Category
> Rating. For example, if I have TK of 6, I can only use other powers that
> I didn't pay for (whether by Karma or Tech Points) at a Force of 3 or
> lower. Drain (when we come around to that) will be treated as double.
> Using the above example, I use a TK power that I don't own at a force of
> 3. I will resist drain as if it had a Force of 6. If it were 2, I would
> resist a 4 drain.

This all makes sense to me.

> Karma Costs for Powers/Categories: I posted a suggestion and only
> got feedback from Rob, so here it is again (revised) . . .

The reason I didn't comment is because I'm not totally sure we're
ready for discussion on that stage yet. First, IMHO, we need to get
character creation numbers down pat, _then_ we can work on Karmic
augmentation numbers.

> Psi Pool: There have been those who want the Psi Pool to reflect
> upon the Psi's Willpower or Intelligence or some combination of the two.
> My idea was that it equal the Psi's Psionic Projection/Manipulation.

A pool is a measure of raw talent, skill, ingenuity, and educated
guessing, all wrapped up into one. When you use all of your pool, you
are putting everything you've got into making _sure_ you succeed in your
task.
For Psionics, this seems to me to come from inside more than from
training -- in gaming terms, from Willpower more than from any skill.
The skill lets you harness your natural talents -- your willpower
provides the added push when needed.
Make sense?

> The Infamous Priority Table: To tell the truth, I have no idea
> what we're doing on this one. We have had numerous proposals, none of
> which I can remember in great enough detail to post or have a copy of at
> the moment. What I can remember is that there will be three types of
> Psis: Full Psis, Psi Adepts, and Wild Psis. Read FRODO LIVES! for the
> latest in priority charts.

I'm not sure about Wild Psis. Full psis have as much power as
their points allow them to. Adepts have as many manipulations as they can
put points into, but are limited to one single discipline. What do the
Wilds have? Just one manipulation?
I think that would really screw up our ideas about skills and
such, as well as the integration of various manipulations.

> Cyberware's Effect on Psionics: The majority of us want to keep it
> simple. Any essence loss (whether it is a datajack or a cyber-hand)
> directly lowers the Psionic Attribute.

Wholly agreed, though the idea of an Initiate ability to change
this is extremely intriguing. I'm not saying I'm in favor of it, because
all we have is the general idea, no mechanics yet -- but it sounds worth
looking into.

> There is a small faction
> (currently being sought out) that want to make a chart or table that would
> lessen Psionic loss if the Cyberware in question does not directly relate
> to the head or nervous system.

I think we left them behind on ShadowRN. *grin*

> Initiation: This is definitely agreed upon. It will exist, but we
> haven't really talked about it much, other than determining that the
> powers available will be called Meta-Psionics.

I have a few ideas, but again, we need to work on the basics first.

> Astral Presence: The majority of those involved are leaning
> towards allowing Astral Projection/Sensing as an Initiate power.

Agreed.

> CyberPsionics - There has been a lot of debate as to if this power will
> work. To be honest, I've lost track of what the damn thing does since
> I've heard about 50 versions. So Rob, can you make another write-up,
> possibly with a few examples?

I'll let Rob do it, and probably add to it (last I heard, his
vision and mine correlate pretty well on this.)
Message no. 4
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 11:39:37 +0100
> > Psi Pool: There have been those who want the Psi Pool to reflect
> > upon the Psi's Willpower or Intelligence or some combination of the two.
> > My idea was that it equal the Psi's Psionic Projection/Manipulation.
>
> A pool is a measure of raw talent, skill, ingenuity, and educated
> guessing, all wrapped up into one. When you use all of your pool, you
> are putting everything you've got into making _sure_ you succeed in your
> task.
> For Psionics, this seems to me to come from inside more than from
> training -- in gaming terms, from Willpower more than from any skill.
> The skill lets you harness your natural talents -- your willpower
> provides the added push when needed.
> Make sense?

It makes perfect sence, thats why I say we use the rating of the
disciplines as a pool. The disciplines(categories) are no skill, they are
the talent(inner power) a psi has within him. His powers however are skills
ge has learned, skill that tell him how to use his raw power efficiently.
Make sence? :)

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS d>d- h s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UAVSL++>UAVSL+++ p--(aren't we all?)
L+>L+++ 3 N++ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ !5 !j- r+++(--) !G
v(++) b+++ D++ b- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 5
From: "S. Keith Graham" <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 08:48:20 -0400
>>
>> A pool is a measure of raw talent, skill, ingenuity, and educated
>> guessing, all wrapped up into one. When you use all of your pool, you
>> are putting everything you've got into making _sure_ you succeed in your
>> task.
>> For Psionics, this seems to me to come from inside more than from
>> training -- in gaming terms, from Willpower more than from any skill.

> It makes perfect sence, thats why I say we use the rating of the
> disciplines as a pool. The disciplines(categories) are no skill, they are
> the talent(inner power) a psi has within him. His powers however are skills
> ge has learned, skill that tell him how to use his raw power efficiently.

Well, Willpower will be used to resist drain, I assume, so its already
used in every single test. The raw talent effect will be in the
system someplace, just leaving skill to be represented as "pool".

Keith Graham
vapspcx@***.gatech.edu
Message no. 6
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 13:29:38 +0100
On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, kyle kohler wrote:

> Psionic Categories: Divination, PsychoMetabolics, Telekinesis,
> Telepathy, and CyberPsionics (I think I'm forgetting one, but I'm not
> sure).

You are missing Clairvoyance, which is NOT telepathy.

> There has also been talk of allowing a Psi to use powers that he
> does not possess provided he has the Category that the power falls under.
> The following limitations will occur when this happens:

I'll be posting on that in a moment, I have a way to do it that makes
sense and is still difficult.

> Karma Costs for Powers/Categories: I posted a suggestion and only
> got feedback from Rob, so here it is again (revised)-
> Cost for Gaining a New Category (at level one): 4 points

I'd still go 1 karma plus =Y= plus time for level one, 2 karma plus =Y=
plus time for level two. The amount of time it takes is inversely
proportional to the amount of money you put into it. (ie, self-study is
permitted, but study under a master [who ya gotta pay] is faster.)

> Cost for Raising a Category by one point (from 3 to 4): 1.5 X
> current rating

I am not sure if this is a little excessive or not...

> Psis and Spirits: Nothing definite, but their seems to be a
> general consensus that Psi's should be able to control (via Mind Control)
> or at least banish spirits. There also seems to be an agreement that Psis
> should not be able to summon elementals or spirits. Alternately, Psionic
> type "spirits" could be created.

First, you need a meta-power to be able to "translate" sprit minds into
something you can handle. Then you have to dominate them with your
telepathic abilities.

> Psi Pool: There have been those who want the Psi Pool to reflect
> upon the Psi's Willpower or Intelligence or some combination of the two.
> My idea was that it equal the Psi's Psionic Projection/Manipulation.

The problem is that by using the PSI Manipulation skill, you are
reflecting a pool that is ONLY your skill, and doesn't have any beaing on
how much willpower you have. Of course, if it is only willpower, you
ignore skill.

What about:
Willpower + 1/2 skill + Mastery Level

> The Infamous Priority Table: To tell the truth, I have no idea
> what we're doing on this one. We have had numerous proposals, none of
> which I can remember in great enough detail to post or have a copy of at
> the moment. What I can remember is that there will be three types of
> Psis: Full Psis, Psi Adepts, and Wild Psis. Read FRODO LIVES! for the
> latest in priority charts.

I think the easiest way is to simply at an 'F' category, and use the tech
points to buy powers.

> Cyberware's Effect on Psionics: The majority of us want to keep it
> simple. Any essence loss (whether it is a datajack or a cyber-hand)
> directly lowers the Psionic Attribute. There is a small faction
> (currently being sought out) that want to make a chart or table that would
> lessen Psionic loss if the Cyberware in question does not directly relate
> to the head or nervous system.

Please keep it simple (KISS)

> CyberPsionics - There has been a lot of debate as to if this power will
> work. To be honest, I've lost track of what the damn thing does since
> I've heard about 50 versions. So Rob, can you make another write-up,
> possibly with a few examples?

I'll try in a later posting.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 7
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 13:36:51 +0100
On Fri, 22 Jul 1994, J.D. Falk wrote:

> I'm not sure about Wild Psis. Full psis have as much power as
> their points allow them to. Adepts have as many manipulations as they can
> put points into, but are limited to one single discipline. What do the
> Wilds have? Just one manipulation?

Yes. Wild Psis are essentially an untrained Psi. They manifested one
power and siezed on tot hat one power and got good at it, but they never
bothered to get any training in anything else.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 8
From: "S. Keith Graham" <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 10:56:40 -0400
Dumb questions that I think its about time to ask:

Exactly what can a low powered PSI do? A medium powered PSI?
A high powered PSI at character creation? A high powered PSI
that's gotten 100 karma, and spent 75% on PSI advancement?

How many powers does your typical "A" pick PSI have? How many
can he eventually get?

Can a PSI keep adding new powers, or are you just "born" with
some list? (Though you may not have developed them all.)

What does a moderate powered TK expert do in a fight?

We've talked a bunch about what kinds of powers to include,
but I think we need about 4 or 6 archetypes (conceptions) to
be a "power level baseline" for any given proposal.

So far, I have no clue how many PSI areas we expect people to
have; how a PSI can (or not) specialize; what kinds of things
we expect Initiate PSIs to do (ritual/joining?); what exactly
does a Wild PSI do, and how does this differ from an Adept?

I think its time for a short bit (or 4) of fiction, to describe
a fight scene, a character background or three, a PSI interogation,
a PSI scouting mission, etc.

Then we can start discussing Karma costs to raise PSI abilities;
how many starting abilities are appropriate (and at what power
level); etc. But I think until we have some (group) idea how we
want PSIs to turn out, discussing wether to use points to buy
PSI powers (like Adepts) or Tech points (like spells) or something
else (based on Priority perhaps) is a bit premature.

You have to know the world you're trying to simulate (4-color PSIs,
firestarter, Julian May's _Intervention_, McCaffery's _Pegasus_,
_StarWars_, our own fiction, etc.) before you can decide if the
rules are appropriate. (Otherwise, you end up with **&* where
the rules create a universe (where fighters can fall from orbit)
rather than a universe that is modeled by a set of rules.)

Keith Graham
vapspcx@***.gatech.edu
Message no. 9
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 12:14:46 +0100
On Sat, 23 Jul 1994, S. Keith Graham wrote:

> Exactly what can a low powered PSI do? A medium powered PSI?
> A high powered PSI at character creation? A high powered PSI
> that's gotten 100 karma, and spent 75% on PSI advancement?

Basically, they can do perhaps 25% less than a like-powered mage, but
doesn't have astral or spirits.

> How many powers does your typical "A" pick PSI have? How many
> can he eventually get?

No book with me, so this is a guess. Say you have 35 points, and you
spend 12 on Diciplines, that will give you 22 levels of abilites, so,
say, perhaps 4 Level 5 powers and a level two or something.

> Can a PSI keep adding new powers, or are you just "born" with
> some list? (Though you may not have developed them all.)

You can train (spend Karmy + time+ =Y=) to get new abilities. The only
PSIs limited by "what you are born with" are Adepts (limited to one
dicipline) and Wilds (limited to one ability).

> What does a moderate powered TK expert do in a fight?

Dunno, we don't have the abilities worked out exactly yet. In addition,
it depends how the PSI fights (do they directly attack the Bad Guy{tm} or
indirectly do it by, for example, dropping an anvil on their head).

> We've talked a bunch about what kinds of powers to include,
> but I think we need about 4 or 6 archetypes (conceptions) to
> be a "power level baseline" for any given proposal.

That's a long ways off for right now.

> So far, I have no clue how many PSI areas we expect people to
> have; how a PSI can (or not) specialize; what kinds of things
> we expect Initiate PSIs to do (ritual/joining?); what exactly
> does a Wild PSI do, and how does this differ from an Adept?

Most of this is a ways off. I would think on average, you can expect a
starting Full Psi to take about three or four diciplines at a high level
(6). That costs ~24 points, but will allow hacking up to level three
spells in that dicipline (assuming the rules I posted yesterday are
adopted). Add an additional, say, 10 to 20 points of actual abilities
(depends on the number of diciplines bought).

As for rituals, yes, we must assume that there is a way to combine
powers, but that is an initiation thing and for right now, we need to
finish the basics.

> I think its time for a short bit (or 4) of fiction, to describe
> a fight scene, a character background or three, a PSI interogation,
> a PSI scouting mission, etc.

We don't have the abilites yet. Most of these abilites are duplicated by
spells anyways.

> Then we can start discussing Karma costs to raise PSI abilities;
> how many starting abilities are appropriate (and at what power
> level); etc.

Look at mages and compare accordingly.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 10
From: "S. Keith Graham" <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 15:31:21 -0400
>> Exactly what can a low powered PSI do? A medium powered PSI?
>> A high powered PSI at character creation? A high powered PSI
>> that's gotten 100 karma, and spent 75% on PSI advancement?

>Basically, they can do perhaps 25% less than a like-powered mage, but
>doesn't have astral or spirits.

This the kind of answer I was looking for.. (Though why less powerful?)

>> How many powers does your typical "A" pick PSI have? How many
>> can he eventually get?

>No book with me, so this is a guess. Say you have 35 points, and you
>spend 12 on Diciplines, that will give you 22 levels of abilites, so,
>say, perhaps 4 Level 5 powers and a level two or something.

This is exactly the answer I *wasn't* looking for. I don't think
we should be talking "points", "levels", and "powers" yet AT
ALL.

What I wanted was "He should probably have access to 4 or the 6
domains, and able to use several(2-3) skills/powers/whatever in each
domain". Then we can go back later and figure out how many
"points" or "levels" we need to give them.

>> Can a PSI keep adding new powers, or are you just "born" with
>> some list? (Though you may not have developed them all.)

>You can train (spend Karmy + time+ =Y=) to get new abilities. The only
>PSIs limited by "what you are born with" are Adepts (limited to one
>dicipline) and Wilds (limited to one ability).

What's an "ability"? I personally very much like the fiction where
you are born "head blind (no telepathy)", or no healing, or no TK,
etc. and you just never develop that, period. (Even if you are
a full PSI, and have access to 4 or 5 other areas.)

>> What does a moderate powered TK expert do in a fight?

>Dunno, we don't have the abilities worked out exactly yet. In addition,
>it depends how the PSI fights (do they directly attack the Bad Guy{tm} or
>indirectly do it by, for example, dropping an anvil on their head).

That's my whole POINT! What do we *WANT* him to be able to do, before
we go listing off abilities, figuring out if we want to make them
skills/spells/magic powers (ala adepts).

>> We've talked a bunch about what kinds of powers to include,
>> but I think we need about 4 or 6 archetypes (conceptions) to
>> be a "power level baseline" for any given proposal.

>That's a long ways off for right now.

Why? Why can't we come up with something like:

(To use Riggers as an example)

Low Powered Rigger:

An LPR is someone who "dabbles" in driving vehicles. He probably
has some other cyberware and is actually competant in a firefight
without drones, etc, or is competant in at least one other area
(decking, detective work, etc.) He should be able to control 1 (in combat),
or perhaps 2 drones or vehicles at once. He should have 3 or 4
skills in his specialty (Vehicle, Drone of choice, repair). He
should be able to take out a "good guard" with a medium quality
drone, but not a medium powered samurai.

High Powered Rigger:

A HPR is someone who has dedicated their life to driving vehicles.
She will have spent all of her essence on vehicle and related
cyberware, and the vast majority of her money on vehicles and weapons
and gear for them. An HPR can control many (3? 4?) drones at once
without an autopilot, and can actively engage in combat with 2-3 drones.
An HPR is probably toast outside her vehicle. She probably has a large
number of vehicle driving skills, a very high gunnery skills, and a number
of build/repair skills (as relevant), and probably a garage/repair
center. She should have even odds against a Sammy with a top of the line
drone, if there's room for it to move, and its not being jammed, etc.

Note that I didn't mention points, essence (directly), lists of equipment,
priorities, and only nodded to skills as a game mechanic. (Which I
probably shouldn't have done. :-)

I'd like that kind of description for a couple of PSIs, and then we
can check the rules we suggest against our agreed "conceptions".

I'm certain that DLoH and company didn't create a magic system, and
then say "wow, what kinds of characters can we do with this". I'll
bet they said "We want Hermetic Mages and Shamans, with spells,
Astral Travel, and etc. Spells should make you tired. etc." Then
they created a system that reflected the "universe" and characters
they had in mind.

>> I think its time for a short bit (or 4) of fiction, to describe
>> a fight scene, a character background or three, a PSI interogation,
>> a PSI scouting mission, etc.

I'll see about cranking out a quick conception or two, along with
a bit of fiction about a PSI escaping from a corporate lab..

Keith
vapspcx@***.gatech.edu
Message no. 11
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 14:52:26 +0100
On Sat, 23 Jul 1994, S. Keith Graham wrote:

> >Basically, they can do perhaps 25% less than a like-powered mage, but
> >doesn't have astral or spirits.
>
> This the kind of answer I was looking for.. (Though why less powerful?)

Well, partially that is because a portion of their karma/tech points must
go to purchasing abilites, which really doesn't give you any power
(except for a potential later power). A mage can dump ALL of the points
into abilities.

> >No book with me, so this is a guess. Say you have 35 points, and you
> >spend 12 on Diciplines, that will give you 22 levels of abilites, so,
> >say, perhaps 4 Level 5 powers and a level two or something.
>
> This is exactly the answer I *wasn't* looking for. I don't think
> we should be talking "points", "levels", and "powers"
yet AT ALL.
>
> What I wanted was "He should probably have access to 4 or the 6
> domains, and able to use several(2-3) skills/powers/whatever in each
> domain". Then we can go back later and figure out how many
> "points" or "levels" we need to give them.

That won't work, though, because I could take 20 force 1 abilites or 3
force 6 abilities. Shadowrun has the benefit over other systems of
letting you pick and choose exactly which powers you want and how strong
those powers should be. Essentially, when you create the character, you
have X points of potential power to build the character how you wish.

Points, levels, powers are needed at this time to work out the
game-balancing interrealtions. Specific abilities are NOT needed yet
(just the general categories).

>
> >> Can a PSI keep adding new powers, or are you just "born" with
> >> some list? (Though you may not have developed them all.)
>
> >You can train (spend Karmy + time+ =Y=) to get new abilities. The only
> >PSIs limited by "what you are born with" are Adepts (limited to one
> >dicipline) and Wilds (limited to one ability).
>
> What's an "ability"?

An ability is a somethign under a dicipline. For example, you might have
a Psychometabolics Dicipline of 6, and an Invisibility ability of 4.

> I personally very much like the fiction where
> you are born "head blind (no telepathy)", or no healing, or no TK,
> etc. and you just never develop that, period. (Even if you are
> a full PSI, and have access to 4 or 5 other areas.)

Full PSIs have the ability to be anything and everything given the proper
training (self- or otherwise). Adepts, much like magical adepts are
limited in where they have the ability.

> >Dunno, we don't have the abilities worked out exactly yet. In addition,
> >it depends how the PSI fights (do they directly attack the Bad Guy{tm} or
> >indirectly do it by, for example, dropping an anvil on their head).
>
> That's my whole POINT! What do we *WANT* him to be able to do, before
> we go listing off abilities, figuring out if we want to make them
> skills/spells/magic powers (ala adepts).

Huh?

> >That's a long ways off for right now.
>
> Why? Why can't we come up with something like:

The problem is that we do not know the specific abilities, we do not even
know the specific diciplines and the costs for those things. We aren't
that far yet. As far as character CONCEPTS, that's fine, but right now
_I'm_ not ready for that because there are 101 other little things that
need to be done first.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 12
From: Sean Holland <sholland@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:23:27 -0700
> The History of Psionics : Too long to post but I'm sure if you
> want it, someone will send it to you or repost it.
Can someone EMail me a copy of this as I have dropped in rather
late in the debate? Thanx.
> Psis and Spirits: Nothing definite, but their seems to be a
> general consensus that Psi's should be able to control (via Mind Control)
> or at least banish spirits. There also seems to be an agreement that Psis
> should not be able to summon elementals or spirits. Alternately, Psionic
> type "spirits" could be created.
Some spirits could be now bodiless psionics or "psychic echo"
type creations. I also think that unless a psi can project astrally they
should be a penalty when using psi-powers on spirits who exist mostly on the
astral plane.
> Psi Pool: There have been those who want the Psi Pool to reflect
> upon the Psi's Willpower or Intelligence or some combination of the two.
> My idea was that it equal the Psi's Psionic Projection/Manipulation.
How about the average of Chrisma and Psi Projection skill? That
would give some use for a high chr...
> Cyberware's Effect on Psionics: The majority of us want to keep it
> simple. Any essence loss (whether it is a datajack or a cyber-hand)
> directly lowers the Psionic Attribute. There is a small faction
> (currently being sought out) that want to make a chart or table that would
> lessen Psionic loss if the Cyberware in question does not directly relate
> to the head or nervous system.
I agree that headware/nerveware should have a greater effect on
Psi, what about bioware (especially that cerebral booster)?
> That's it. Does anyone mind me recapping every so often (say
> every week or after heavy activity)? I think it would help since there
> are some who tend to lose track of everything being discussed and their
> current status (not mentioning any names, Rob).
Please do, I only have a limited amount of time availible to
spend on non-Uni stuff at the moment.
Thanks,
-Sean
Message no. 13
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 17:32:13 +0100
On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Sean Holland wrote:

> I agree that headware/nerveware should have a greater effect on
> Psi, what about bioware (especially that cerebral booster)?

I disagree. Just use the straight essence/BI rules that FASA provides
adn don't over complicate it.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 14
From: Sean Holland <sholland@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 11:06:28 -0700
> > I agree that headware/nerveware should have a greater effect on
> > Psi, what about bioware (especially that cerebral booster)?
> I disagree. Just use the straight essence/BI rules that FASA provides
> adn don't over complicate it.
But doesn't that make Psi just too much like magic?
Also, since FASA's view is that magic and tech are antithetical,
but psi is different right (?) could technological aids to psionics
developed. Say a bio-ware psi-booster like the cerebral booster?
Message no. 15
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 16:41:45 -0500
> Also, since FASA's view is that magic and tech are
> antithetical, but psi is different right (?) could technological
> aids to psionics developed. Say a bio-ware psi-booster like the
> cerebral booster?

As I said before, I'd say that bioware should be the absolute
ANTITHESIS of Psis. A cerebral booster would not be from that EXACT brain
that originally had the Psi abilities...and would therefore be VERY bad
to put in.

Cyberware, maybe. Bioware, bad.

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 16
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 17:40:10 +0100
On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Sean Holland wrote:

> > > I agree that headware/nerveware should have a greater effect on
> > > Psi, what about bioware (especially that cerebral booster)?
> > I disagree. Just use the straight essence/BI rules that FASA provides
> > adn don't over complicate it.
> But doesn't that make Psi just too much like magic?

The rules have already be written and it is much easier to just use them,
at least as the stock rules.

> Also, since FASA's view is that magic and tech are antithetical,
> but psi is different right (?) could technological aids to psionics
> developed. Say a bio-ware psi-booster like the cerebral booster?

Very likely.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 17
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 17:42:39 +0100
On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Tim Skirvin wrote:

> As I said before, I'd say that bioware should be the absolute
> ANTITHESIS of Psis. A cerebral booster would not be from that EXACT brain
> that originally had the Psi abilities...and would therefore be VERY bad
> to put in.

You have failed to define why bioware is the antithesis of psionics.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 18
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 23:32:36 -0500
> You have failed to define why bioware is the antithesis of
> psionics.

That was what the "As I said before" part was for...

The main reason that Bioware is so bad is that it's SUPPOSED to be
the same. The problem is that it's NOT the same. There are enough subtle
differences that everything can get really screwed up...that's what the
body rating's for.

However, for Psis, their ability is tied up with the mind. They need
that pure mind to do anything, they need to have their own mind.

With any bioware that hooks up to the central nervous system (aka:
all), the body thinks it's the same, but it most certainly is NOT. When y
you have cyberware, the body recognizes it as unnatural, and lives with
it...the body has a different sense with bioware. It tries to do the same
things, but with a different mind.

Cyberware is bad. Trying to put in something with only minor diff-
erences is worse, in my mind.

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 19
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 18:47:04 +0100
On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Tim Skirvin wrote:

> The main reason that Bioware is so bad is that it's SUPPOSED to be
> the same. The problem is that it's NOT the same. There are enough subtle
> differences that everything can get really screwed up...that's what the
> body rating's for.

The thing is, PSIs, as we've described them, have as a whole very little
to do with the body. In addition, a mage needs the purity of mind and
body just as a PSI does.

I think, in the name of simplicity, it would be better to use the
straight 1:1 rules, and then to include optional loss rules for location
of the cyber or bio part (if it's in your head, it negitively effects you
more).

> With any bioware that hooks up to the central nervous system (aka:
> all), the body thinks it's the same, but it most certainly is NOT. When y
> you have cyberware, the body recognizes it as unnatural, and lives with
> it...the body has a different sense with bioware. It tries to do the same
> things, but with a different mind.

Clonal and cultured bioware is genetically no different than what you
are. There are some mutations that occur, but these are statistically
little different from those that occur naturally.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 20
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 00:23:42 -0500
> Clonal and cultured bioware is genetically no different than what
> you are. There are some mutations that occur, but these are
> statistically little different from those that occur naturally.

But, in Psis, those small mutations can mean the difference.

That's the difference between mages and Psis.

The Psi uses his whole mind for his powers. The whole thing. Just
a little variation, and suddenly the thing doesn't work right. That's why
(I hope) Psi won't be anything close to genetic...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 21
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 18:30:08 +0100
On Fri, 29 Jul 1994, Tim Skirvin wrote:

> That's the difference between mages and Psis.

Some could also say that because bioware is at least organic, it would
effect a PSI less that cyberware. The solution, I think, is to just use
the stock rules and not argue semantics.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 22
From: Sean Holland <sholland@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 10:39:34 -0700
> As I said before, I'd say that bioware should be the absolute
> ANTITHESIS of Psis. A cerebral booster would not be from that EXACT brain
> that originally had the Psi abilities...and would therefore be VERY bad
> to put in.
But all bioware that links into nerve/brain tissue is cultured
(i.e. grown from the person that will recieve them) so it would be from
the exact brain that had psi abilities...
Message no. 23
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:32:44 -0500
> (i.e. grown from the person that will recieve them) so it would be
> from the exact brain that had psi abilities...

But it is a slightly altered brain. Just enough to make the booster
work.

Those changes are enough to kill the Psi power.

Chaos theory, ya see...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"

(Oh, and don't expect a response for a while. I'm gone for 3 weeks
as of...hmm. Today, isn't it?)

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 24
From: kyle kohler <kkohler@**.UCR.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 01:12:18 -0700
On Wed, 3 Aug 1994, Tim Skirvin wrote:

> > (i.e. grown from the person that will recieve them) so it would be
> > from the exact brain that had psi abilities...
>
> But it is a slightly altered brain. Just enough to make the booster
> work.
>
> Those changes are enough to kill the Psi power.
>
> Chaos theory, ya see...
>

Well, that depends, it _might_ just modify the brain enough to
enhance the Psi power (the results of the Cerebral booster). It all
depends, and not on chaos, but how good at genetic manipulation the doc is.

Kyle Kohler
kkohler@*****.ucr.edu

I am the King of Credit
Message no. 25
From: Sean Holland <sholland@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: PSI: RECAP 1.0
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 11:12:23 -0700
> > (i.e. grown from the person that will recieve them) so it would be
> > from the exact brain that had psi abilities...
> But it is a slightly altered brain. Just enough to make the booster
> work.
> Those changes are enough to kill the Psi power.
> Chaos theory, ya see...
But does this mean that some people who recieve brain boosters
will spontaniously generate Psi-powers (ChAOs aGaiN!)?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about PSI: RECAP 1.0, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.