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Message no. 1
From: Vael Lashar <ltwiss@********.COM>
Subject: Sea boundries.
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:54:14 +0000
Has FASA ever discussed country territorial boundries for the Pacific
Ocean?

I don't want to step on FASA's toes.


Vael Lashar
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:01:02 +0100
Vael Lashar said on 16:54/11 Oct 96...

> Has FASA ever discussed country territorial boundries for the Pacific
> Ocean?
>
> I don't want to step on FASA's toes.

Not that I know of. There's some info about some countries on the Pacific,
but that's about it, I believe.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Silence likes empty.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 3
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:10:36 +1000
> > Has FASA ever discussed country territorial boundries for the Pacific
> > Ocean?
> >
> > I don't want to step on FASA's toes.
>
> Not that I know of. There's some info about some countries on the Pacific,
> but that's about it, I believe.
>
If the twenty mile territorial limit still applies, then most of the
Pacific Ocean is still free country. Corporations would probably have a
few floating research habitats on the oceans, because they don't have to
buy the land from anybody.

I can see a problem if the corp had a floating colony, and tried to
enforce a twenty mile territorial limit around the thing. The limits
would be a lot smaller; Say 5 miles or one mile.

You've also got to ask what the corp would be wanting to do out on the
ocean. Fishing isn't all that profitable, after all. Possibilites I can
immediately think of include Oil/Petrochem drilling, Mining, Geothermal
power generation and research...

The colonies, or platforms, would probably be fairly small population-wise,
because there is still a lot of land available throughout the world for people
to expand into, and the sea isn't needed yet for living space (all that
much).... If you need land you can always start a war (it's a
well-established historical precedent)

The extra territorial nature of the oceans (even today) leads to a few
interesting things; First, you can carry anything you want on board a
vessel, as long as it doesn't come inside territorial waters. A lot of
merchant vessels carry heavy ordnance to repel pirates (I shit you not).

There would obviously be problems with items that are contravened by
world consensus, like Nuclear fissile material, and Chem/Biol weapons,
but the possibilities are pretty immense for what you can get away with.

There are currently quite a few pirate bands in the Indonesian islands,
especially on the shipping routes (I've seen the documentaries), and the
situation is likely to get worse in the SR universe.

My brother was into the ocean a lot at high school (Marine Education was
on of his subjects), and according to him, there have been reports of
merchant vessels repelling pirate attacks with rocket fire. Also, a
private yagthsman repelled a pirate attack by sinking the attackers with
a recoiless rifle...... Lotsa fun *grin* Some of the best runs we've
done in SR were with pirates involved.
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:23:01 GMT
Marty writes
> >
> If the twenty mile territorial limit still applies, then most of the
> Pacific Ocean is still free country. Corporations would probably have a
> few floating research habitats on the oceans, because they don't have to
> buy the land from anybody.
i can see these being somewhat rare due to cost but certainly
possible.

> The colonies, or platforms, would probably be fairly small population-wise,
> because there is still a lot of land available throughout the world for people
> to expand into, and the sea isn't needed yet for living space (all that
> much).... If you need land you can always start a war (it's a
> well-established historical precedent)
>
One of the reasons for the corporate court and 'Omega Orders' to try
and minimise this sort of thing as overall its not good for profits.
(Unless you're Ares Arms and standing to the side :) )

> The extra territorial nature of the oceans (even today) leads to a few
> interesting things; First, you can carry anything you want on board a
> vessel, as long as it doesn't come inside territorial waters. A lot of
> merchant vessels carry heavy ordnance to repel pirates (I shit you not).
>
Considering what you hear to the TV occasionally about some parts of
the world i don't blame them.

> There are currently quite a few pirate bands in the Indonesian islands,
> especially on the shipping routes (I've seen the documentaries), and the
> situation is likely to get worse in the SR universe.
>
FASA are going to be covering the stuff near America but the far East
is right open to a NERPS writeup and it could well be a near free for
all out there, i just hope no-ones started buying up old Frigates :)

> My brother was into the ocean a lot at high school (Marine Education was
> on of his subjects), and according to him, there have been reports of
> merchant vessels repelling pirate attacks with rocket fire. Also, a
> private yagthsman repelled a pirate attack by sinking the attackers with
> a recoiless rifle...... Lotsa fun *grin* Some of the best runs we've
> done in SR were with pirates involved.
>
Now theres an idea, if i can only get the PC's to a suitable location
:)

Mark
Message no. 5
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:01:04 -0500
At 04:54 PM 10/11/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Has FASA ever discussed country territorial boundries for the Pacific
>Ocean?
>
>I don't want to step on FASA's toes.
>
>
>Vael Lashar

"Abiding by international treaties, Aztlan claims territorial waters out to
80 kilometers from shore. Predictably, this claim causes friction with its
neighbors along the Gulf coast and around San Diego."
-Aztlan sourcebook, p 106

I take this to mean that every nation claims 80 km out to sea.


-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"He puts on a pair of glasses and runs around the house laughing
hysterically, shouting 'Where did I go? Where did I go?'."
-one of a list of reasons why Lois Lane and Superman broke up (they're back
together).
Message no. 6
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:23:04 +1000
> "Abiding by international treaties, Aztlan claims territorial waters out to
> 80 kilometers from shore. Predictably, this claim causes friction with its
> neighbors along the Gulf coast and around San Diego."
> -Aztlan sourcebook, p 106
>

Incorrect as far as current terriorial boundaries go; Some of of smaller
pacific nations currently only claim out to the five-mile limit.

> I take this to mean that every nation claims 80 km out to sea.
>
That could seriously fuck with free shipping through some of the smaller
or more congested passages and shipping lanes.

I think Aztec would have a larger territorial limit, beacuse they are
aggressive and territorially ambitious.

You've got to have the navy to enforce the limit, or why bother stating
that it exists??

Bleach
Message no. 7
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:08:40 -0500
At 10:23 AM 10/15/96 +1000, you wrote:
>> "Abiding by international treaties, Aztlan claims territorial waters out to
>> 80 kilometers from shore. Predictably, this claim causes friction with its
>> neighbors along the Gulf coast and around San Diego."
>> -Aztlan sourcebook, p 106
>>
>
>Incorrect as far as current terriorial boundaries go; Some of of smaller
>pacific nations currently only claim out to the five-mile limit.

This was the only thing I could think of that FASA addressed regarding
territorial waters.

>> I take this to mean that every nation claims 80 km out to sea.
>>
>That could seriously fuck with free shipping through some of the smaller
>or more congested passages and shipping lanes.

I see your point. Although I always thought the USA had a three mile boundary.

So ka.

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"Larry Niven was dead wrong."
-one of a list of reasons why Lois Lane and Superman broke up (they're back
together).
Message no. 8
From: "Paolo Falco (The Foxmaster)" <Falco@****.IT>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:03:39 +0200
On 15 Oct 96, Marty wrote the FoxMaster about Re: Sea boundries.:

> > I take this to mean that every nation claims 80 km out to sea.
> >
> That could seriously fuck with free shipping through some of the smaller
> or more congested passages and shipping lanes.

(Including, I tell you, all of the Mediterranean! :)


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Message no. 9
From: Scott Koch <heydrich@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:04:55 -0500
The United States and other large nations ( that are issolated and parniod)
claim out to the range of the naval guns (missles) that are carried. This
doesn't take into account ICBMs. At the turn of the 1900 the limits were 3
miles becasuse that was as far as the guns can shoot. in the 30-50'
18miles was the rule. now it is several hundred miles. Mind you these are
only guide lines and are only enfored when seen fit. depending on the need
and forces avalible.

Scott Koch
Message no. 10
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sea boundries.
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:06:17 +1000
> >> I take this to mean that every nation claims 80 km out to sea.
> >>
> >That could seriously fuck with free shipping through some of the smaller
> >or more congested passages and shipping lanes.
>
> I see your point. Although I always thought the USA had a three mile boundary.
>
*grin* The USA considers all of the worlds oceans their territorial waters.

The current limit would be a bit more than three miles, because you need the
buffer zone to stop smuggling. Australia has a 20-mile limit, and we
still get freighters sitting off the territorial limit smuggling stuff in.

Also, some countries claim to the edge of the continental shelf, because
of resource considerations.

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

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