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From: Jens Hage <jhage@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame re; FASA world view
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:49:04 -0600
On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Marty wrote:

> > How can you say that America got left with the best vision
> > of the future from FASA? Or that it is the only remaining
> > superpower in 2057? I was downright pissed to see how the
> > US had fragmented, how pitifully inneffectual it had become
> > and how much less of a world power it had become.
>
> You know, this is probably going to annoy you greatly, but it gratified
> me immensely to see America taken down a peg or two. Pitifully
> ineffectual pleases me greatly, and makes a lot of sense Take a look at
> any of these examples relating to current world culture and power dominance;
>
> -The USSR at the moment

Lost an nasty economic/low level war.

> -Germany immediately after either of the world wars

Industry and political systems nuked after each.

> -Britain for the last one hundred years

Losing a good hunk of it's population in both of them and taking extreme
strains in fighting two World Wars (the Japanese messed up the Britich
Empire something fierce)

> -France for the last two hundred years

Actualy France didn't really leave the scene until after WWI IIRC, and
didn't truly leave until after WWII.

> -Portugal for the last three hundred year

IIRC, Spain whopped them in the New World.

> -The Vikings for the last 1000 years

Had a brief resurgance with a nasty little Swedish empire in the (1500's?)

> -The Egyptian for the last two millenia

Got whacked by several different, up and coming civilizations. Interesting
note: Egypt was the site of a new Islamic dynasty for a while.

> All of these cultures ruled what was considered their world at one time
> or another, or at least had a big part in fighting over it. Now they are
> bit players in the scheme of things, with the exception of Germany.

It also helps (historically at least) that most, if not all of those lost
some sort of war immediately prior to leaving the world stage. In the FASA
timeline, and, indeed, following the examples of war that seem to be more
common today, I do -not- foresee a large enough war to put the U.S.
economy in peril.

> There are plenty of other examples I could use, but I'd bore you stupid.
> What makes you so god-damned sure that America will still be a world
> power in twenty years, let alone sixty?

Nothing aside from basic arrogance, which is not an exclusively American
trait I might add.

> No culture stay on top of pile for ever, and historically the rate of
> turnover of dominance has been increasing (related to population growth
> throughout the ages) What happens when China starts to industrialise,
> or When India manages to do something about their underclass? God forbid.
>
> Even further in the future, what happens when Africa gets to the top of the
> pile? By that time they'll have increased their population relative to
> yours by a factor of ten. With that kind of population, they don't even
> have to reach the 'top'... Force of numbers will take care of it.

-This- one I feel informed enough to comment on: Central Africa at least,
is in -deep- drek; AIDS is pandemic, and while a natural immunity probably
will spring up there first, it's still going to rip holy drek out of a
generation (I think; this is of course open to debate). If "force of
numbers" was an issue, the British empire never would have gotten past the
islands, IMHO. India seems to be a wonderful counterexample. Also take
into account the brain drain, effects of colonialism, corruption, debt,
and frequent tribalistion.

> The general egocentricity of believing that America will still be in
> command is unbelievable..... I'm not even accounting for the destructive
> events in the world timeline. Those kind of global catastrophes tend to
> hurt those at the top the most.

I've yet to see America (or the UCAS) at the top of any SR heap. CAS, Cal
Free, the Tirs (both of 'em), Aztlan, all would like to talk to you about
that UCAS dominance. Relative to overseas (Europe, Asia and Africa
especially) there's no inclination that the UCAS does any weight throwing
in 2057. We've got Japanese troops in San Fran, and absolutely no mention
that I know of of American adventurism (see Grenada, Panama, etc.)

> You may not know it, but America has quite a bad reputation worldwide,
> not the least because you are so righteous about how fantastic your own
> country is and how the rest of the world are second class countries.
> It's not something you decry loudly, but it shows in your cultures general
> arrogance, intolerance and ignorance of other cultures.
>
> (Please do keep in mind that I said your culture, not you personally)

(Side note: I think you read too many of those "U.S. #1 LOSERS!!!!
threads. :)

Yeah, and that arrogance is (possibly) a result of European arrogance back
in the 1800's. And heck, still today, we put up with a general attitude
from the rest of the world similiar to your attitude (culturally
speaking). Why shouldn't we be defensive?

> It's a standing joke that if you want to survive as a tourist, you don't
> carry an American passport; They make the best hostages, and no-one
> cares if you kill one or a dozen.... With the exception of that great holy
> avenger America.
>
> My advice regarding the fragmentation of America; Deal with it.

Heck, I like it. But the "Ignorant American" sterotype is getting old, and
has been for a while. While I'm no defender of real "american tourists" I
don't really think there are so many as to perpetuate the stereotype. (Not
like I -know- of course.)

> >Basically, FASA has set things up so that no one government
> > fits the 1980s description of a superpower, ala USA or USSR.
> > The Big 8 megacorps run roughshod over everyone.
> > Governments, while many still retain a lot of power and
> > influence, are nowhere near what they are in 1996.
> >
> Which is something that I agree with totally..... the Big Eight won't
> stay at the top for ever either, not least of which due to the
> reallocation of shares due to Dunzlezahn's death.

Heck, Yamatetsu (IIRC) showed that back in '41. If the NeoA's get their
way, it'll be damn soon. :)

Jens "American apologist" Hage

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