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Message no. 1
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: What the ...?!
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:46:31 MST
A small explanation for this post. If the area hadn't been the
Barrens, and LSS hadn't been reeling from the lost of three
comrades-in-arms, Geiger's trick would have never cut it. Geiger
took a very risky gamble and it worked.

LSS for their part, are going to try extremely hard to nail the
cop-killers.

Killing cops, no matter what the brand, does not go unpunished.

Mike


______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: What the ...?!
Author: michael.goldberg at denccmpo2
Date: 1/1/98 10:41 AM


>>>>>[ Alright. Who's the joker who did this? What did you take
exception to the fact that we have some workaholics in our midst?

[MUNCH]

Griffyn, on a sort of related note, please contact Midnight. ]<<<<<
-- Geiger <16:31:51/01-01-59>
Message no. 2
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:03:18 +0000
<rant mode /on>

Okay...

I really respect everyone on this list. The writing is great, the plots
are very interresting, the characters are superb.

But... Where do we draw the line? I mean, I personally based my
characters on tabletop characters, and the campaigns I've played in. And
while after 3 1/2 years of playing the same characters every week, many of
them were very powerful, but they were not "bending" the rules, never facing
world-spanning menaces, or becoming world-changing powers themselves.
They're basically high-powered runners...RUNNERS....

Now... I'm reading about fighting "The Darkness"..and childs..and walking
on the moon, and mages in space. Where does artistic license end? Is
there a common balance we can all agree on beforehand? Am I doomed to
write about my characters gettin' whipped and killed over and over again
because I obviously couldn't possibly face someone who "Fights the
Darkness","Teared Denver apart" or "Beat the Nexus deckers"?..

And face it... most interresting plot lines come for those characters...
the Wars, the Lynches, the Strangers, the Cthulhu frames, the Binders, the
Morningstars. So if I want to integrate myself in those plotlines...well,
you end up with something like Haze. Normally powerful, but ultimatly
doomed. What can I reasonably do against someone who went astral in
space? Or someone who brougth the Denver Undergroud crashing down? It
seems my mundanes views are condemned to stay just that...mundane. Man, I
must get a Save-The-Universe plot going....

All I'm saying is this... You can create all the world-spanning
conspiracies you want. Really. It makes for good writing. But those
high-powered characters RUNNING THE SHADOWS? What? That's the only
refuge I have. Running. I can't meddle in higher-level plotlines, 'cause
we all know how that will end (heck, on the 6-8 months I've been here, I
think I must be in the top ten for "Gettin' beat up" posts). And if I
stay in low-level plotlines... well, I get high-level characters coming
down... I'd love to see my characters interact with some of the legends
in here. But obviously, since there's absolutly no way I could come out
on top, why do that?

Actually...I don't want to come out on top... I don't want to rule the
world. But once...just once in a while, I think it would be fun for
characters like Harley, Haze, Twitch, Marathon, and others to shine. Not
be outshone ad vitam eternam.

<rant mode /off>

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Goldie - "Timeless"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:30:21 -0500
Frank,

I know where you are coming from. Two things I do want to address.

First, there is no reason that very powerful PCs can't run the shadows. It
all depends on the campaign. And I think you'll find that several of the
most powerful PC here, Lynch and his group and the Dark Stranger for
example, either have other responsibilities (the UCAS Gov) or are
themselves pawns/servants (the Draig Un plot).

And as recent events have shown, even these characters aren't invulnerable.
Lynch got shot twice, probably pretty badly. He also just so happens to
be a horribly macho PC who probably had his tear ducts removed so could
never risk crying ;-)

As for the "Darkness" plot, rest assured that big bad nasties won't be
running rampant across city blocks. That's not how I play them, and Paul
has said that he won't either. We are both interested in essentially
writing a horror story ala H.P. Lovecraft. Sure, there are mega-nasties,
but we won't ever meet them - it's all about subtlety. A shadow here, a
flickering light there. All the talk between the characters doesn't mean
that much. None of them really know that much, except for a clear
exception, Draig Un. And that PC is really more of a NPC.

Keep up with your good work. We've all done "mundane" plots and many of us
have been in "save the city/nation/company/world" plots. They can all be
very interesting.

Personally, I like your Haze character. I'm hoping that he'll go down in a
huge ball of flames, taking out as many people as possible as he does it.
While that may not be epic to the scale of "the Darkness," I would argue it
still is epic, though on a slightly smaller scale.

Those are my thoughts anyway. I hope I didn't misrepresent you Paul, but
that's what I got from you; please correct me if I'm wrong.

Erik J.
Message no. 4
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:06:16 +0000
:) I don't intend to go out in a ball of flames anytime soon...

And I wasn't talkin' about me personally... but, you gotta admit, it looks
pretty dauting for a newbie to try to fit in here... I mean, Bruce Ford
had the guts to plunge in and start something...but with a character that,
for all intents and purposes, is also very, very powerful.

I wasn't trying to come down on any of you... I mean, y'all have the right
to post what you want... but when you post something like the possibility
of mages surviving in space... can't you at least submit it here first, so
we can discuss it? I'm strongly opposed to that fact, that mages could
survive while projecting in Space... but hell, too late for now, no?

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Goldie - "Timeless"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 5
From: Chuck McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:20:55 -0600
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Frank Pelletier wrote:

> I wasn't trying to come down on any of you... I mean, y'all have the right
> to post what you want... but when you post something like the possibility
> of mages surviving in space... can't you at least submit it here first, so
> we can discuss it? I'm strongly opposed to that fact, that mages could
> survive while projecting in Space... but hell, too late for now, no?

I think it's actually mentioned in a short story, but I forget which one.
Something about a bug trying to kill Damian Knight, only to find out that
it was a mage standin. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Chuck McKenzie kilroy@***.cs.wisc.edu
http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~kilroy/ charlesm@**.wisc.edu
WYSIWHIP: What you see is dessert topping.
Message no. 6
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:37:54 +0000
In message <199803051711.MAA24095@****.qc.ca>, Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> writes
><rant mode /on>
>
>Okay...
>
>I really respect everyone on this list. The writing is great, the plots
>are very interresting, the characters are superb.
>
>But... Where do we draw the line? I mean, I personally based my
>characters on tabletop characters, and the campaigns I've played in. And
>while after 3 1/2 years of playing the same characters every week, many of
>them were very powerful, but they were not "bending" the rules, never facing
>world-spanning menaces, or becoming world-changing powers themselves.
>They're basically high-powered runners...RUNNERS....


>Now... I'm reading about fighting "The Darkness"..and childs..and walking
>on the moon, and mages in space. Where does artistic license end?

Well, Quinn in space is canon. Mages die or go mad there :) That does
also colour what she says. She may believe it... that don't mean she
_actually_ saw what she _thinks_ she saw.

>Is
>there a common balance we can all agree on beforehand?

Not really... there's a range, though it does tend towards the higher
end. It's just that for the last couple of months I've been
concentrating on Chronos and the Farmer, at the expense of other stuff.

>Am I doomed to
>write about my characters gettin' whipped and killed over and over again
>because I obviously couldn't possibly face someone who "Fights the
>Darkness","Teared Denver apart" or "Beat the Nexus
deckers"?..

Haze's big problem was that he got caught in a very messy atrocity, and
made it the business of a lot of people to bring him in. Don't worry,
there's more than one way out :)

If you want lower-level stuff, there's a couple of good spots in
Puyallup: Easy needs all the help she can get, and there might be an
entertaining gang war around Harley's corner of town. It does happen,
believe me...

>And face it... most interresting plot lines come for those characters...
>the Wars, the Lynches, the Strangers, the Cthulhu frames, the Binders, the
>Morningstars. So if I want to integrate myself in those plotlines...well,
>you end up with something like Haze. Normally powerful, but ultimatly
>doomed.

The difficulty Haze seems to have is he keeps pitting himself in kill-
or-be-killed (well, at least get a damn good kicking :) ) situations.

>All I'm saying is this... You can create all the world-spanning
>conspiracies you want. Really. It makes for good writing. But those
>high-powered characters RUNNING THE SHADOWS? What? That's the only
>refuge I have. Running. I can't meddle in higher-level plotlines, 'cause
>we all know how that will end (heck, on the 6-8 months I've been here, I
>think I must be in the top ten for "Gettin' beat up" posts).

Again, seems more because Haze ends up pitting himself against other
list characters head-on. Hey, he did damn well on the bus hit...

>And if I
>stay in low-level plotlines... well, I get high-level characters coming
>down... I'd love to see my characters interact with some of the legends
>in here. But obviously, since there's absolutly no way I could come out
>on top, why do that?

Run a plot of your own :) Seriously: it gives you the right to say that
Character X isn't appropriate to intervene, unless they're willing to
get the snot kicked out of them by Haze...

If you do, let me know, it would give me an excuse to use Harley some
more...

>Actually...I don't want to come out on top... I don't want to rule the
>world. But once...just once in a while, I think it would be fun for
>characters like Harley, Haze, Twitch, Marathon, and others to shine. Not
>be outshone ad vitam eternam.
Message no. 7
From: "Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:43:56 -0800
According to Erik Jameson:
>As for the "Darkness" plot, rest assured that big bad nasties won't be
>running rampant across city blocks. That's not how I play them, and Paul
>has said that he won't either. We are both interested in essentially
>writing a horror story ala H.P. Lovecraft. Sure, there are mega-nasties,
>but we won't ever meet them - it's all about subtlety. A shadow here, a
>flickering light there. All the talk between the characters doesn't mean
>that much. None of them really know that much, except for a clear
>exception, Draig Un. And that PC is really more of a NPC.

The last time someone really insisted on bringing forth one of the Big
Meanies (a Wraith), the result on the list was the Redmond Riots...not an
episode I'm exactly eager to repeat. As has been demonstrated amply by many
of the list members, there's plenty of chances for drama without cracking open
the gates of Hell itself. =)
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:40:01 -0500
At 02:06 PM 3/5/98 +0000, you wrote:
>:) I don't intend to go out in a ball of flames anytime soon...
>
Good. Let's see what Haze can do.

>And I wasn't talkin' about me personally... but, you gotta admit, it looks
>pretty dauting for a newbie to try to fit in here... I mean, Bruce Ford
>had the guts to plunge in and start something...but with a character that,
>for all intents and purposes, is also very, very powerful.
>
True. But you know, I think some variation on this general theme has been
going on since Day One. I seem to recall some brutal plots back in the
day...super deckers called Lucifer, virii and AI running loose, Brian's
loose cannon military industrial complex corporation...and before my time
there was something with Doctor Doom's version of Germany.

Of course, that was back in the day of "parties" where the PCs could get
together for Samhain, or winter solstice, or whatever.

>I wasn't trying to come down on any of you... I mean, y'all have the right
>to post what you want... but when you post something like the possibility
>of mages surviving in space... can't you at least submit it here first, so
>we can discuss it? I'm strongly opposed to that fact, that mages could
>survive while projecting in Space... but hell, too late for now, no?
>
Actually, I am strongly opposed to mages in space, which is why I posted on
TK as I did.

I do think he has a point; when dealing with things that are out of FASA
bounds, we probably should consult with the list first. That is one reason
why Plot-D is here, right?

Erik J.
Message no. 9
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:45:32 +0000
In message <199803051914.OAA27146@****.qc.ca>, Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> writes
>I wasn't trying to come down on any of you... I mean, y'all have the right
>to post what you want... but when you post something like the possibility
>of mages surviving in space... can't you at least submit it here first, so
>we can discuss it? I'm strongly opposed to that fact, that mages could
>survive while projecting in Space... but hell, too late for now, no?

It's been mentioned in sourcebooks that some have. Some came back mad,
some came back dead, some came back _saying_ they had and claiming it
was no big deal.
Message no. 10
From: Randy Nickel <RANNIC@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:30:42 -0800
<<It's been mentioned in sourcebooks that some have. Some came
back mad,
some came back dead, some came back _saying_ they had and
claiming it
was no big deal.>>

There is even a module....for the life of me I can not remember
the name of it, but I recall that we were down in a sewer and we met
this blind guy that had gone astral and went into space.

He tore out his own eyes because he had seen such horrible
things.

Anyway, a lot of people have their theories about what is out
there. Me, I think it's the Horrors. Which would fit right in with H.P.
Lovecraft.

Otter
AKA: Randy Nickel
Message no. 11
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:55:40 -0700
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Frank Pelletier wrote:

> <rant mode /on>
>
> Okay...
>
> I really respect everyone on this list. The writing is great, the plots
> are very interresting, the characters are superb.
>
> And face it... most interresting plot lines come for those characters...
> the Wars, the Lynches, the Strangers, the Cthulhu frames, the Binders, the
> Morningstars. So if I want to integrate myself in those plotlines...well,
> you end up with something like Haze. Normally powerful, but ultimatly
> doomed. What can I reasonably do against someone who went astral in
> space? Or someone who brougth the Denver Undergroud crashing down? It
> seems my mundanes views are condemned to stay just that...mundane. Man, I
> must get a Save-The-Universe plot going....

I tend to agree with Frank here though I have to ask is there another
Morningstar on the list? My Morningstar appears to be just a fixer that
is allegedly connected very circumstantially at best to a shake up that
brought down several corrupt members of the Sioux sector border patrol.
At this time, there is no proof to who or what MM really is other then he
seems to abhor casualties... <shrug>

I think in the end what I have planned with him may well surprise you,
Frank...I myself have asked that perhaps a new FAQ or at least minor
revision list be put out for the newbies so we don't keep bringing up old
topics because we think something that to one of us appears to have been
missed but has already been discussed and determined.

At any rate, I hope I am making some sense, I'm a little punchy from no
sleep in quite some time so if you need something clarified, ask... <grin>

Anyhow good night all,
Bruce.
Message no. 12
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:04:59 -0700
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Chuck McKenzie wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Frank Pelletier wrote:
>
> > I wasn't trying to come down on any of you... I mean, y'all have the right
> > to post what you want... but when you post something like the possibility
> > of mages surviving in space... can't you at least submit it here first, so
> > we can discuss it? I'm strongly opposed to that fact, that mages could
> > survive while projecting in Space... but hell, too late for now, no?
>
> I think it's actually mentioned in a short story, but I forget which one.
> Something about a bug trying to kill Damian Knight, only to find out that
> it was a mage standin. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?


I mentioned this over on RN I think this morning. The story hints at
certain possibilities and is written by Tom Dowd. It is up on the SR
Archive and is called "Hunter and Prey."

-----
Bruce Ford aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

"The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
-Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.

E-mail: shaman@*******.com ICQ#: 4804267
Message no. 13
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:13:43 -0700
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Randy Nickel wrote:

> There is even a module....for the life of me I can not remember
> the name of it, but I recall that we were down in a sewer and we met
> this blind guy that had gone astral and went into space.
>
> He tore out his own eyes because he had seen such horrible
> things.

Eyewitness was the module.

-----
Bruce Ford aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

"The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
-Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.

E-mail: shaman@*******.com ICQ#: 4804267
Message no. 14
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:03:26 +0000
In message <3.0.3.16.19980305101041.099786b0@****.fbiz.com>, Erik
Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes
>Those are my thoughts anyway. I hope I didn't misrepresent you Paul, but
>that's what I got from you; please correct me if I'm wrong.

Nope, you got it nicely.
Message no. 15
From: Randy Nickel <RANNIC@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:36:36 -0800
<<Eyewitness was the module.>>

Thanks Bruce! :-) It was really bugging me that I could not
remember that.

I was wondering if some kind soul could help me with something
else. I was going to start playing again and I went to put my character
into the archive. That worked fine.

However, when I looked in there I discovered that he was still
there from when I played over a year ago. Is there a way to update your
character that I may have missed?

What I would like to do is take the new one I just put in out
and just use the old one. Of course, my email address has changed since
then though.

Randy "Otter" Nickel.
Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:18:43 EST
In a message dated 98-03-05 12:01:51 EST, jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA writes:
> Okay...
> I really respect everyone on this list. The writing is great, the plots
> are very interresting, the characters are superb.

Well, this is a bad sign, everyone with a major rant -always- seems to start
this way ;)

> But... Where do we draw the line? I mean, I personally based my
> characters on tabletop characters, and the campaigns I've played in. And
> while after 3 1/2 years of playing the same characters every week, many of
> them were very powerful, but they were not "bending" the rules, never
facing
> world-spanning menaces, or becoming world-changing powers themselves.
> They're basically high-powered runners...RUNNERS....

Okay, I understand and follow this...

> Now... I'm reading about fighting "The Darkness"..and childs..and walking
> on the moon, and mages in space. Where does artistic license end? Is
> there a common balance we can all agree on beforehand? Am I doomed to
> write about my characters gettin' whipped and killed over and over again
> because I obviously couldn't possibly face someone who "Fights the
> Darkness","Teared Denver apart" or "Beat the Nexus
deckers"?..

Artistic License has no end, to be sadly honest. I have listened to
individual and group rhetoric on Plot-D now and read through some of the logs
(all of them would tie me up forever ;). I do understand where people like
Frank here have a "concern for level of power". I really do.

However, in all the readings of Plot-D that I have done, and the FAQ's, one
thing keeps coming back to get me. "TK" is not a personal mailing list, it's
an open entry forum mailing list. Sure, there are some guidelines, which
admittedly I have crossed a couple, but I am trying to learn NOT too. I am
trying to bring things in "in character mode" and not go so far as to destroy
other characters and/or story ideas. I made one mistake with "Newbie" and I
do not plan on repeating it again.

> And face it... most interresting plot lines come for those characters...
> the Wars, the Lynches, the Strangers, the Cthulhu frames, the Binders, the
> Morningstars. So if I want to integrate myself in those plotlines...well,
> you end up with something like Haze. Normally powerful, but ultimatly
> doomed. What can I reasonably do against someone who went astral in
> space? Or someone who brougth the Denver Undergroud crashing down? It
> seems my mundanes views are condemned to stay just that...mundane. Man, I
> must get a Save-The-Universe plot going....

It's a strange fact that many, not all, major plotlines do have something to
do with "saving the (insert something bigger than the character here)". That
is simply a fact of major fiction, science fiction. Major political struggles
are always there wherever mankinds societal structure exists. In what form
it exists who knows?

Characters such as "Haze" (who as a player I feel really sorry for actually)
are designed not to integrate into the "entire" shadow community. And that is
just the truth. And if the player says they are, then I am sorry, but someone
who's entire mentality can spin to such emotional extremes as "Haze's" appears
to are NOT going to work out everywhere. They are dangerous wild cards and
the societal community they exist in (shadows, corporate, political, etcetera)
are going to deal with that fact in their own fashion. Often, each one uses
the other to do it's work for them.

What "Denver Underground" anyway? What did I miss?

> All I'm saying is this... You can create all the world-spanning
> conspiracies you want. Really. It makes for good writing. But those
> high-powered characters RUNNING THE SHADOWS? What? That's the only
> refuge I have. Running. I can't meddle in higher-level plotlines, 'cause
> we all know how that will end (heck, on the 6-8 months I've been here, I
> think I must be in the top ten for "Gettin' beat up" posts). And if I
> stay in low-level plotlines... well, I get high-level characters coming
> down... I'd love to see my characters interact with some of the legends
> in here. But obviously, since there's absolutly no way I could come out
> on top, why do that?

What is the restraining force here for you Frank? Really, a serious question.
Do you simply not find yourself involved/interested in those levels of play?
That is fine, really, it is. There is always a place for anyone, regardless
of the "food chain step" someone is on. Moving one's self to
different/parallel levels of that "food chain" requires a choice Frank, that
is what it ultimately comes down to. And it is -YOUR- choice to make, not
necessarily someone else's. Someone else may influence it, may assist/obscure
the end goal(s) you create for your characters, but ultimately you make those
choices to interact at what level.

> Actually...I don't want to come out on top... I don't want to rule the
> world. But once...just once in a while, I think it would be fun for
> characters like Harley, Haze, Twitch, Marathon, and others to shine. Not
> be outshone ad vitam eternam.

I agree, I think it would be really interesting if Haze got his wish and hurt
Lynch to such an extreme that it would make SIGA stand up and inhale for an
indetermined amount of time. But by that same token, I think Haze is a loner
and loners against the groups always have a harder time of it. Haze acts far
to mercenarial, no wrong term, turn-coatish, to have a survivable chance over
a longer period of time.

Be glad, the TK list does have a lower level of power. Haze has screwed up so
many times that I've seen since my time on TK that one good ritual Control
Actions would end the entire problem. And he's even left ritual material
behind, albeit not the best, but it's there.

On a roleplaying standpoint, I personally think Haze is sloppy and far to
narrow-visioned to pull it off. What I do know of Lynch and his companions-
in-crime (CinC as a joke :) is they are organized and go lengths for each
other. That makes them work. Haze sells out to quickly and has little left
to go with.

As for the "Magic in Space", I am somewhat apologetic for getting carried away
in the topic, but it is something that happened to Binder over a period of
time and has forever changed that character. He has a strong belief
structure, and truly believes what he's encountered. We all play "the games"
and we know that things vary for every game. It is what makes TK kind of
interesting, hearing about "one thing" that contradicts what you (as a
character) know otherwise at.

FASA is going to deal with space oriented phenomena in the future, but that is
NOT an indication they are going into space. That clarification does need to
be made, as a "Space Sourcebook" is not truly likely, even were I do volunteer
up the 4-5 meg worth of text stuff/rules/ideas that is sitting in diskette
here to Mike in a direct, signature required, UPS sending (which I can do and
make certain he -has- to sign it). Space is simply an environment, and how a
given set of rules concerning space occur is currently in the hands of the
GM's of each of these characters.

Should Mark or Paul or whoever is in "final say" of TK usher some ruling
otherwise, that is their decision. But it does make the "open forum" of TK
suddenly not so "open" anymore...

-K
Message no. 17
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:20:04 EST
In a message dated 98-03-05 17:03:36 EST, shaman@*******.COM writes:

> > He tore out his own eyes because he had seen such horrible
> > things.
>
> Eyewitness was the module.
>
Ah yes, I remember this one. Mike gave it to me for a birthday gift a couple
years back. We never ran it at the time because of the implications it would
have upon a given game. Could be interesting... (eyeing it on the shelf even
now...)

-K
Message no. 18
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:04:41 +0000
In article <199803051711.MAA24095@****.qc.ca>, Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> waffled & burbled about What the...
><rant mode /on>
>
>Okay...
>
>I really respect everyone on this list. The writing is great, the plots
>are very interresting, the characters are superb.
<Biggus snippus>

Hehe. Yeah, I've said that a couple of times - well, words similar. <g>


I agree with a lot you say Frank, and when I first joined the list -
garsh, was it really that long ago - I and a few other people had a bit
of a problem with the power level of some of the characters, but then we
had a few other problems as well (like getting the damn time/date stamp
right) :)


Anyway. In reference to your comments, (and I know they were
generalised.) I've sacrificed a considerable number of characters to
the list, not a few of them have fallen at the feet of the immoral...
erm, immortal erm, impossible... erm <g> Lynch. But that is something
that Paul and I are relatively happy about. I abuse him horribly, he
kills somebody that belongs to me, I abuse him some more. In over two
years, we've only actually had one problem, and that was as a result of
a misunderstanding.


There are a few other characters belonging to others that have gone the
way of the deep six. I think the problem mainly is, and Paul will agree
with this, after a while one gets attached to a character, it would take
a major effort of willpower for Paul to kill Lynch, or for another
writer here to kill one of their major characters. The longer the
character exists, the more powerful he becomes, the more "impressive"
the feats that he can achieve.


I've seen some truly incredible things on the list, that have made me
sit back and say "Hey, let's back it up here, that's ludicrous..." But,
I've resisted the temptation to blow off about it, though I think I've
had the occassional "mutter" - normally I'll do it through a character,
and there have been countless raving nutters decrying the supermen of
Shadowrun. :)


In the end, it's down to two things.


In the beginning there is a meek little new character, who will be
battered and victimised. In the end there is a tougher, wiser and more
able character - and the personal battles end.


Some of the plots here do seem astronomical in their depth. Paul has a
seriously perverted plot going involving the UCAS Senate (well, a small
part of it). I've got a couple going, one between Tairngire and NanOg,
and another with Aztlan - I don't think they're as high powered as some
here, but in the eyes of a few people no doubt they are. I've yet to
see what Mike is dreaming up around his characters War, Famine,
Pestilence, Death and Wanderer, but it's shaping up to be an
apolcalyptic and cataclysmic clash between the whole lot - I'm kinda
curious who he's going to let walk.


Sacrificing characters to the list becomes a habit. One that's hard to
break. As I said, I've sacrificed, to date, 8 main characters and 28
npc's, some to Lynch, for one bad guy in return. Hey, I'm a victim,
what can I say. <g>


In the situation with Haze, there are several ways out of his current
situation, a couple of which we've discussed over e-mail, and one
suggestion that you made during his introduction that would be
interesting to explore, though you'd have to be careful with it. While
Haze is trying to beat the daylights out of Lynch, he's going to lose.
Lynch is one of Pauls favourites, and it really would take an awful lot
for him to let Lynch lose so dramatically. It might be believable in a
real world, but it would hurt him, and I can sympathise with that. I've
outmanouevered Lynch with a pet munch I've got in the stable, but I
would never dream of writing to Paul, or Mike, or Mark I, and claiming
the ability to vapourise their characters.


Now I appreciate that's not what you're saying, you don't seem to have
any aspirations to that end, but you, with mine and Pauls help have dug
a deep hole for Haze. A few of my characters, Twitch in particular
sympathise with the guy. Twitch is never going to aspire to great
heights, he can't, he's not that type of guy, but he's going to be
around for a while - assuming Ein_Schuss doesn't shoot him first. :)
I'll sacrifice more characters and bad guys to the list. There's
fifteen slated to die this year, but then I play a world which has a
high mortality rate, and I don't get attached to my characters the same
way others do. They are - here - just electrons, words in an unstable
environment. In my living room, they are pieces of paper, and they
still live.


Much of what happens on the list is open to debate. Quinn's claim to
have gone astral in space. Why not? She may have done it in Pauls game
at some point (in fact I think she did) but the fact that she claims it
on 'tk, doesn't make it true. If I had the time, I'd get into another
argument with Quinn regarding her claims, but I've got other things on
at the moment so can't :( It is a very simple matter to create a
throwaway character. No need to register them with the char-list
because they're not going to survive more than a few posts.


Create such a character - a name, and argue the point. Use logic, game
rules (but no quoting from the books:) ), RL game experience, and argue
the point. If you think that Paul's munching out by claiming Quinn
walked on the moon in astral space, fine, ridicule the character, flame
the character, call it all the names under the sun. Quinn will probably
challenge you, and kill you, but it doesn't matter, you argued the
point, and the recipient of your abuse has flexed their senior muscles
and ground the nasty little oik into a pulp. What the hey?


I've found that sometimes, it is best to abuse the characters through
another character, because if some release isn't indulged in, the list
loses some of it's attraction, and it becomes a "big boys sandpit",
which is not the intention of the list, or it's members.


Some people have very firm ideas of what they /don't/ want to see on the
list, like Mark N, no ED connections - something I agree with, I hate
the whole concept of ED/SR links, but they exist in the canon - doesn't
mean they have to be taken further though. Orbital colonies are hinted
at, but not detailed, so, there's no harm in mentioning them, provided
it's not explored in any great detail, many people hate the idea of SR
in Space, )I happen to like the idea, but then I'm wierd anyway.) So,
like Doofus, I'll tread lightly around the edges, claiming ignorance
until led by the nose. :) Discussing the possibilities, connsidering
ideas and concepts, things that might be useful in my RL game, and
attracting nutters like Quinn out (BTW she really /is/ crazy)


There are world spanning plots, but not world shaking, well, maybe
mildly now and again. After a while, the intricate political detail and
threat value of a Man-From-Uncle/Bond plot gains more attraction. It's
possible to explore all sorts of avenues and possibilities, it's easier
to build the personality and background of a character through a series
of posts, so that people gradually get to know someone, much like they
would in a book or a movie, this can be done over a series of short
posts, but works best over time.


I don't think at the moment, there's anything of any real noteworthy
occurrence on 'tk. Erik J's darkness plot is slowly rearing it's ugly
head again, but looking at the vehemence that Horrors are greeted with
by many members on this list, I can't see that he'll go that route - and
I think he's already mentioned that it's more a Cthulhu style with
lesser creatures and nasties than a full fledged Big'n'Nasty <tm> Paul
is getting deeper into the Farmer plot, and shortly we'll be exploring
another angle of that, deep in a nasty little jungle. Mike G's beating
up on Boston, but that's about it really. Nothing as major as it might
at first seem.


*****


You very kindly sent me Haze as a character sheet, and in all honesty
he's way beyond the powerlevel that I have in my games, but as you said,
he got that way over time, I have no problem with that, and as I
mentioned to you, he has been added to my web site in the character
section along with Lynch and Stephanie and a few other guys. I like
Haze, I will be very angry if Paul insists on killing him - but don't
worry, I'll kill Pauls current char "Joolz" in retribution if he does
<g> /and/ force him to run a game that _I_ play in <EGMG>


I notice from a recent post that you're using Cathedral to try to get
Haze out of his current predicament. Again, I doubt very much that
you'll find any complaints about that. He can grow a beard, get a
different tattoo, wear glasses, whatever Shadowrun is amazingly capable
for making people disappear. eg. Wanted criminals are still wondering
around the US now, some have been on the FBI list for decades, some of
them have appeared on America's Most Wanted, and are still at large.
One a couple of years ago, was running for 42 years, when finally the
FBI caught him. He was released, having already served more than his
sentence. He would have got 5-10 years for his crime, he was on the run
for 42. It can be done, and there are current day precedents for it.
Haze doesn't need to die, he doesn't need to get the crap kicked out of
him all the time, he doesn't even need to get shot again. That's part
of the beauty of this list - endless possibilities. Plots and
involvement are a matter of the imagination.


For example, I recently sent a team of runners into Boston, the
intention was for them to get work up there, so far they're 50/50, lost
some gained some, I'll write a few more posts for that shortly, it was
Mike G's Wanderer that attracted me into that area, and as he said, if I
can come up with an idea - something interesting, then he's happy to
involve them in his particular lunacy - I just can't think of anything
at the moment. Haze has posibilities with a couple of my plots, or as
you suggested, linking something you've got with one of my bad guys, and
there are so many other possibilities. You don't have to let Paul brow
beat you into being a victim all the time <no offence Paul - grin/duck>
but if you are going after Mr. Lynch, then you are going to get your
arse kicked. I only have one character, that on paper would turn Jason
Lynch into liquid mush - they'll never meet, for two very good reasons.
First, I don't want to get into that situation, and I'm sure neither
does Paul, second, no way on this earth am I going to let Lynch anywhere
near him - I'll emigrate first. :)


The possibilities of S'tk are limited only by the imagination. Some
things have been done over and over again. Terrorists blowing the crap
out of Seattle <g>, government cover ups, crooked senators, bugs, young
children with amazing abilities. Etc. There are only four basic plots
for writing, and it's down to how you vary those four basic concepts
that makes the plot unique.

Man meets girl (loses/gains)
Man against the elements
Man agains Man
Man against beasties

That's it. Everything around those four basics are variations.
Everyone suffers from plagarism, we all steal from those four basic
beginnings. Actually I suppose another two can be added to that, just
for shadowrun


Man against machine
Man against magic


Pretty basic isn't it?


I run a high tech, high mortality, low magic campaign - and try to do
the same on 'tk. I know two others that do the opposite, low tech low
mortality, high magic. I don't like high magic games, but... I'll take
anything if it's interesting enough. :)


I think it was Brian Anglis a couple of years ago (I could be wrong) who
said "...if you're not having fun, take a deep breath, think about
what's wrong, take a rest. If it's no fun, it's not worth doing." If
the fun is leaving for you Frank, because you're feeling pressured by
Lynch's experience and ability, and the seniority of the other list
members then back off a bit. Haze is intelligent enough to know he'll
get another crack later. So he's pissed off the Farmer - so what.
Farmer's dead meat when D'Arkan get's to him anyway <snigger> Haze has
support from some in the shadows - he knows who they are, he has
friends, he has a system that has helped him to survive so far. OK,
he's a very mercurial character, but that's part of his attraction.
Take him out, explore other possibilities, and kill Lynch later. :)


Don't get angry at what's happening on the list, that will just spoil
the enjoyment you might derive from reading some of the posts, and will
only serve to make you more bitter towards some of what happens on 'tk.
I've accused Paul of munching on occassion - hopefully he's taken it in
the humorous way it was intended. I've accused the people I joined this
list with of the same act - I know damn well I do it sometimes. :)
Provided it's done with taste and style I don't think the list members
care too much. But it's always a good idea to just sit back, take a
deep breath. Drink some coffee, smoke a cigarette, or whatever you do
to wind down - and either ignore what annoys, or, if it's an open post,
respond to it, but use a different character, not a prime one. Many
here use main characters to argue things, I personally have a problem
with that, so I use proxies. Even Ratspeak has been at the receiving
end of my abuse, and he's a pretty rare & decent sort of guy. :)


Paul flames beautifully, and in the main, it's fun arguing with his
characters, partly because he's so easy to get going, and partly because
he seems to enjoy it as well. The others don't really post often enough
to warrant severe abuse - so they all get lumped into the "Brolly and
bowler" brigade. :)


I mean, come on, look on the ludicrous side of the whole thing. A
character, coming from nowhere, recognised only by a few, has just
started claiming the great darkness is coming. Yeah right... Nutter!


What happened when Eblis and Smeagol started posting conspiracy stuff?
They got ranted at, they got all sorts of nonsense thrown at them. It
happens.


Quinn claims to have walked on the moon. Nutter!


One of /my/ characters was turned into a newt - but he got better.
Nutter!


Ridicule things, don't let them get under your skin. Therein lies only
disatisfaction, disappointment, anger and finally unsubscribing from the
list. In my opinion, it would be a shame to lose you and Haze. Your
writing is refreshingly different, and anyway, I /like/ Haze.


In the immortal words of a great American tutle. "Chill out dude."

:)


Sorry guys, that went on a bit longer than I originally intended.

Mind you, why break a tradition? :)

--
Avenger
Message no. 19
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:39:13 +0000
Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> once wrote,

<humongeous snip>

*Long sigh* It's not about Haze. In fact, I've had a lot of fun with
you, Paul and Mike, and I enjoy writing posts. Hell, you can flame him
all you want, it's just another excuse to write more.

What I was trying to refer to is the relative power level. As long as I
can write, I don't care if War or Lynch take over Madagascar... hell, if
Paul and Mike make it interresting, I'm all for it... What I'm against is
the de facto inclusion of non-canon elements in the main board. I mean, I
initially had trouble with power armor... so that astral/space thing threw
me for a loop :) I'm not a bonehead either... But I was basically just
asking people that want to introduce high-powered character, events or
new, unbalancing abilities to please post them on PlotD first... we'll
throw it around, and then throw it back to TK... As it is right now, I
could start my own dragon shapeshifter community, take over Washington,
and no one would be able to do shit about it (Except the admins, who'd
kick my ass out of the list :) ).

Hey... I basically summerized all this ranting, all those posts in one
line!

PlotD exists for a reason! Let's use it!

Thank you

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Race - "Race"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 20
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:20:23 -0700
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Ereskanti wrote:

> > Eyewitness was the module.
> >
> Ah yes, I remember this one. Mike gave it to me for a birthday gift a couple
> years back. We never ran it at the time because of the implications it would
> have upon a given game. Could be interesting... (eyeing it on the shelf even
> now...)

I enjoyed it and have run it a number of times, with some variations
involved and have played in it as well...that's where Rendar obtained that
nice little Ranger Arms SM-3. <grin>

-----
Bruce Ford aka Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.

"The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
-Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.

E-mail: shaman@*******.com ICQ#: 4804267
Message no. 21
From: Bruce Ford <shaman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:41:57 -0700
On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Avenger wrote:

> Mind you, why break a tradition? :)

<Grin> Umm Shock value...

In all honesty though, thanks...it was an insightful post and allows me to
get a better grip, to some degree, on where you stand....may not always
agree but then that is the nature of humanity... :)

Bruce.
Message no. 22
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:39:10 +0000
In article <Pine.BSI.3.95.980305213915.12856G-100000@*******.com>, Bruce
Ford <shaman@*******.COM> waffled & burbled about What the...
>On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Avenger wrote:
>
>> Mind you, why break a tradition? :)
>
><Grin> Umm Shock value...

Hmmm. Interesting concept. Shock the list by posting something small,
short, to the point?

Not sure if I'm psychologically capable. :)

>In all honesty though, thanks...it was an insightful post and allows me to
>get a better grip, to some degree, on where you stand....may not always
>agree but then that is the nature of humanity... :)

Absolutely. :) Such is nature.

--
Avenger
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:14:40 -0500
<even bigger snippus>

I agree with almost everything you said there, with one point.

The Dark Stranger/Horror thing really is a background plot, not really
supposed to come to a head-on fight. In fact, I try very hard to keep the
enemy that is being fought some sort amorphous, strange baddie that could
be a Horror, could be a bizarre, but still SR canon, spirit, Cthulhu stuff,
or something else entirely. And with the Platina exception, it's almost
always against the minions of the baddies.

I think, in order to clear things up, it's time for (a little) revelation
about the Draig Un thread.

Draig Un is a major player, on the lines of Ehran, Dunky, Lofwyr,
Harlequinn. But Draig Un won't ever be appearing "in person" EVER on TK;
Draig Un is outside the IE cabal, knows at least as much as they do, but is
something of a rogue. Draig Un has gathered a number of powerful
hermetics, including the Dark Stranger, to act as a directly-controlled
"black ops squad." The Dark Stranger knows much, but nowhere near as much
as his master does. And the elves, specifically the two Tirs, are
considered to be as much an enemy as the Invae, the Enemy, or anything else
like that. And for now, Draig Un is content to send the pawns against the
minions of Draig Un's enemies. The pawns, such as the Dark Stranger, don't
always know the full extent of their mission; in fact, it can be assumed
that they never know everything.

So basically any Horror action is likely to be against Aztechnology
cybermancy labs or teocali, and the occasional run to frag over the elves.
Good ol' black ops in other words, the same as any other corp or gov would
assign, with the only twist being WE know what's really going on - and so
does Draig Un.

And to further downplay the thread, I have the Dark Stranger do other jobs,
such as the one that Bruce Ford is starting right now.

AND I'm trying to bring in some other characters that wouldn't know a damn
about all this high-powered stuff.

And for those of you who believe you know the identity of Draig Un, please,
keep mum. I'd rather that information, if it ever comes out, be the
product of a long plot-line pitting friend vs. friend, creating new
alliances and breaking old ones, the whole soap opera thing, be played out
here on TK.

And no, Brian, the Dark Stranger isn't Dragon One...

Hope this helps out.

Erik J.
Message no. 24
From: Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 12:31:13 +1200
Frank said:

>So if I want to integrate myself in those plotlines...well,
>you end up with something like Haze. Normally powerful, but ultimatly
>doomed.

Like Ronin and Squatter, gristle between the millstones of Farmer and SIGA.

>What can I reasonably do against someone who went astral in
>space? Or someone who brougth the Denver Undergroud crashing down? It
>seems my mundanes views are condemned to stay just that...mundane.

It is hard down at the bottom, but most of the characters on this list
should be down there, I agree. Seems to me, there's no real reason for all
these high powered types to be hanging around a shadowscum decker board.
They should be busy elsewhere, fighting the darkness, running their
corporations, or whatever. This is Shadowrun, wherein the characters are
supposed to be gutterpunk criminals at worst, freedom fighters at best.
IMHO, saving the world is not part of shadowrun, unless the runners get
paid _very_ well, and in any case they shouldn't be powerful enough to pull
it off. Even the SIGA/Farmer thing seems a little too high powered to me.
Mob-wars and stuff like that are much easier to swallow. Little runs,
datasteals, extractions, assassinations (but not of high powered targets
like Dunky or Gov Schultz)... that's what shadowrun has always been about
for me.

Okay, there could (should?) be more powerful people/entities moving in the
background (and I've been guilty of one or two of these), and it now seems
that most of the current earth shaking plots are now going to be run that
way. For all I know they were planned like that from the start. I think it
was Sascha who said that the furthest his plots went was city-shaking, as
opposed to world/universe shaking. That sounds like a good limit to me.

Country-shaking might be allowed once per year ;P.

In the words of Homer Simpson, no matter how good you are at something,
there'll always be about a million people better than you. IMNSHO that
should apply to all major characters on the list. Ice violated that, so I
pushed him into the background.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON
Message no. 25
From: Randy Nickel <RANNIC@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:50:14 -0800
I have read a lot of the discussions, past and present, on
earth-shattering plots and have seen it go both ways. Some people like
big plots and some like to keep it to their local neighborhood. There
are arguments to take it both ways.

I can enjoy both and that is usually why I run multiple characters. So I
can enjoy both.

I think that if you like small plots that revolve around events
happening only your city then have your character stick to those. If you
like big plots that save the world then have your character play in
those.

If you don't like any of the plots.....create your own.

So long as is not going to mess up someone's character or the entire
city then have fun.

Randy "Otter" Nickel
Message no. 26
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:54:00 +0000
In message <AnkuzQAJf2$0EwT3@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
<Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>Anyway. In reference to your comments, (and I know they were
>generalised.) I've sacrificed a considerable number of characters to
>the list, not a few of them have fallen at the feet of the immoral...
>erm, immortal erm, impossible... erm <g> Lynch.

He's versatile and skilled, but he's outmatched by others in all his
fields.

After all... face to face with Ronin, mano a mano, and Van Holde is
obviously wounded with a badly broken arm. Yet Lynch barely won that
fight.

His reputation exceeds his ability, something that's giving him
increasing cause for concern.

>Sacrificing characters to the list becomes a habit. One that's hard to
>break. As I said, I've sacrificed, to date, 8 main characters and 28
>npc's, some to Lynch, for one bad guy in return. Hey, I'm a victim,
>what can I say. <g>

Whereas I have yet to have a major character killed, and I shy from the
thought of any of my more serious list PCs being killed. As Pete says,
you come to identify with them. Luckily we have people like Jamie and
Pete who can create distinctive, identifiable characters and then allow
them to die, because it's something I'm very bad at.

>While
>Haze is trying to beat the daylights out of Lynch, he's going to lose.

Not so much that, but he's dealing with both a clan and an agency. If
Haze kills Lynch, he then has Lilith and Quinn on him at once, followed
closely by Stephanie. SIGA have lost an agent and will not be happy. The
FBI will add Lynch to Haze's trail of victims and their pursuit will
continue.

(That's more what makes the man powerful: backing, support and family)


>Lynch is one of Pauls favourites, and it really would take an awful lot
>for him to let Lynch lose so dramatically. It might be believable in a
>real world, but it would hurt him, and I can sympathise with that.

The problem is that it's a blood match. Haze needs Lynch dead, and Lynch
wants Haze's head on a pole for the bus murders. I don't have a problem
with Haze kicking the snot out of Lynch, but as things stand that would
not suffice for Haze nor his backers: they want a corpse.

>I'll sacrifice more characters and bad guys to the list. There's
>fifteen slated to die this year,

Bloody _hell_... ;)


>Much of what happens on the list is open to debate. Quinn's claim to
>have gone astral in space. Why not? She may have done it in Pauls game
>at some point (in fact I think she did) but the fact that she claims it
>on 'tk, doesn't make it true.

She _thinks_ she did. That's all. In this forum, I don't know whether
she did or did not. She tried, and honestly believes she succeeded.

>Create such a character - a name, and argue the point. Use logic, game
>rules (but no quoting from the books:) ), RL game experience, and argue
>the point. If you think that Paul's munching out by claiming Quinn
>walked on the moon in astral space, fine, ridicule the character, flame
>the character, call it all the names under the sun. Quinn will probably
>challenge you, and kill you,

Hey, no fair, she's only challenged one person and didn't kill him at
all :)

>I like
>Haze, I will be very angry if Paul insists on killing him -

I have no intention of killing Haze, unless Frank says Lynch can. I as a
player want the guy to get away with a new face and a new ID. He's the
dark side of shadowrunning, and there should be more like him around. I
started with something similar with the Forsaken, but Haze did it first
and does it better.

>but don't
>worry, I'll kill Pauls current char "Joolz" in retribution if he does
><g>

Joolz was doomed the moment he acquired reflex enhancers and an
automatic weapon. But at least he'll die happy, believing he's a K3wl
D00d... I'm already planning the next character, because "I have a bad
feeling about this..." :)

> /and/ force him to run a game that _I_ play in <EGMG>

I keep offering, you keep refusing... :)

>I notice from a recent post that you're using Cathedral to try to get
>Haze out of his current predicament. Again, I doubt very much that
>you'll find any complaints about that. He can grow a beard, get a
>different tattoo, wear glasses, whatever Shadowrun is amazingly capable
>for making people disappear. eg. Wanted criminals are still wondering
>around the US now, some have been on the FBI list for decades, some of
>them have appeared on America's Most Wanted, and are still at large.

Another point to note. Fragmentation. Haze is very wanted by the UCAS
and Tir Taingire. Carib League vaguely know who he is, he's mess dragged
in by some UCAS Feds and they wish he'd go away. CAS and most of NAN
don't know him from Adam.

Offers _lots_ of hiding places.

>You don't have to let Paul brow
>beat you into being a victim all the time <no offence Paul - grin/duck>
>but if you are going after Mr. Lynch, then you are going to get your
>arse kicked.

Not so much by Lynch - for all the talk, the guy is only human. He
fights, sure, but Tangent and Imp and others are better soldiers. He
flies, but not as well as Lilith or Arashi or V-12.

The problem is that you go for him, and a Government intelligence agency
starts a file on you and starts cross-referencing every byte of data on
you they can reach. And _that_'s why he's so apparently powerful.

And, on a personal level, he has friends and family. He will fight and
die for them: some will return the favour.


Against Thunda, Lynch helped Achilles. He brought Quinn and Blade and
Easy and Lilith, all people of no small ability. He brought Imp and the
Serenity Securty FRT, a downright scary unit. He brought a section of
UCAS Marines.

And yet who gets all the credit for the work of all those people,
several score FBI, several hundred Lone Star? Just one man. Lynch.

This tends to inflate the reputation above the abilities of the man it
belongs to.

>I only have one character, that on paper would turn Jason
>Lynch into liquid mush - they'll never meet, for two very good reasons.
>First, I don't want to get into that situation, and I'm sure neither
>does Paul, second, no way on this earth am I going to let Lynch anywhere
>near him - I'll emigrate first. :)

Shaitanis, or someone else?

>Sorry guys, that went on a bit longer than I originally intended.

No kidding? :)
Message no. 27
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:17:10 +0000
In message <199803060346.WAA05258@****.qc.ca>, Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> writes
>What I was trying to refer to is the relative power level. As long as I
>can write, I don't care if War or Lynch take over Madagascar... hell, if
>Paul and Mike make it interresting, I'm all for it... What I'm against is
>the de facto inclusion of non-canon elements in the main board. I mean, I
>initially had trouble with power armor... so that astral/space thing threw
>me for a loop :) I'm not a bonehead either... But I was basically just
>asking people that want to introduce high-powered character, events or
>new, unbalancing abilities to please post them on PlotD first... we'll
>throw it around, and then throw it back to TK... As it is right now, I
>could start my own dragon shapeshifter community, take over Washington,
>and no one would be able to do shit about it (Except the admins, who'd
>kick my ass out of the list :) ).

You could create any damn thing you wanted :) The problem might be
getting people to take you seriously.

"This clan of dragon shapeshifters runs Washington DC!"

"Yeah, right, and I'm the son of Kurt Cobain and Hillary Clinton. Next?"



Merely because a list character says it, does not make it so. In our RL
campaign, Quinn has indeed walked the ways of space, and come back
deeply changed.

On ShadowTK she _believes_ she has. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. It
makes no real difference to the list, and I would prefer not to state
explicity one way or the other in this forum. For those who accept Mages
In Space, she did. For those who did not, she tried and failed, and
merely remembers vivid hallucinations brought on by the event.
Message no. 28
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the...
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:44:59 +0000
In article <XTpX5VAoqJA1Ew+w@********.demon.co.uk>, Paul J. Adam
<shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK> waffled & burbled about What the...
>In message <AnkuzQAJf2$0EwT3@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
><Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes

>>does Paul, second, no way on this earth am I going to let Lynch anywhere
>>near him - I'll emigrate first. :)
>
>Shaitanis, or someone else?

Sha'i'talis... Yes.

>>Sorry guys, that went on a bit longer than I originally intended.
>
>No kidding? :)

Yeah yeah yeah. I know. Pete, he of the terminal restless fingers and
hot air problem. So sue me. :)


--
Avenger

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