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Message no. 1
From: jaimie.nicholson@********.otago.ac.nz (Jaimie Nicholson)
Subject: Re: Wings and Grenades
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:34:49 +1200 (NZST)
Mark:

>You spend a lot of time when you're a little kid learning to walk when your
>plasticity is at its lifetime high. If you're not born with wings, you're
>going to have a _much_ harder time learning to use them...

There have been cases of brain damage that has resulted in loss of the
walking reflexes, and the victims have learnt to walk again. And I'm
talking adults here, too. If the desolation angel has had his wings for a
long time, I don't see why he can't flap 'em. I still don't think he could
fly though, just move them enough to control the glide.

>if you can figure
>out how to make people actually move/feel them in the first place.

Should be possible if you can figure out how to make a guy feel like a
woman (or vice versa) through simsense.

Evan:

>Is this really a problem? Riggers can direct aircraft, what would stop
>a modified rig from being applied to a pair of wings?

The VCR is another good example of weird neural connections. I wouldn't do
it that way, but it just goes to show what you can do to the brain (stick
rigger gear on your body, run it through a VCR 3, and save 200 KnY for what
acts as wired ref's 3 (humorous expression of "yeah right, I really meant
that" with brackets and colons and shit)).

Ferri:

>I think "desolation angel" was after the cool outfit.
>Somehow red capes with locks just don't qualify. :)

You wound me. I guess that cancels my idea for a new mage (another humorous
expression of "yeah right, I really meant that" with brackets and colons
and shit).

The grenade thing (not that I care, but "dog gotta bark" as a butler named
Niles once said):

>Ideas please, as I don't think this is properly covered in the rulebooks.

There is something about elemental effects with regards to stiff burning up
in the grimII. Check there.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON
Message no. 2
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard)
Subject: Re: Wings and Grenades
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 21:53:48 -0700 (PDT)
According to Jaimie Nicholson:
>Mark:
>
>>You spend a lot of time when you're a little kid learning to walk when your
>>plasticity is at its lifetime high. If you're not born with wings, you're
>>going to have a _much_ harder time learning to use them...
>
>There have been cases of brain damage that has resulted in loss of the
>walking reflexes, and the victims have learnt to walk again. And I'm
>talking adults here, too. If the desolation angel has had his wings for a
>long time, I don't see why he can't flap 'em. I still don't think he could
>fly though, just move them enough to control the glide.

There's at least two reasons why these two cases are _very_ different from a
CNS perspective. One: "relearning" to walk is a lot different than starting
from scratch, and two: the human brain is built from the womb with motor
control centers for the legs, interfaces to the balance centers, etc. The
human brain is not constructed with circuitry to interface with any sort
of third pair of limbs (be it wings, tentacles, or whatever). My friends
in computational neurobiology assure me that the control structures for a
4-limb being are significantly different than for a 6-limb one.

>>if you can figure
>>out how to make people actually move/feel them in the first place.
>
>Should be possible if you can figure out how to make a guy feel like a
>woman (or vice versa) through simsense.

In that case, the tactile (etc.) sensations are being shunted from a higher
center, after being filtered through all the lower-level stuff, and simply
recorded to tape. In the case of these wings, you want to integrate them at
the lower levels so they actually interface with the balance centers, motor
control, etc. In other words, the wings have to be put into the dynamic
feedback loop. This requires processors to actually synthesize the nervous
impulses, rather than just recording preexisting ones.

In fine: I might go so far as to see an "unfolding" glider anchored to the
bones for only a slightly hideous Essence cost. Anything that allowed
actual tactile and articulate interaction with the wings should cost a _lot_
of Essence and be quite hard to design. IMNSHO, of course. =)
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 3
From: jaimie.nicholson@********.otago.ac.nz (Jaimie Nicholson)
Subject: Re: Wings and Grenades
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:42:49 +0800
Mark:

>My friends
>in computational neurobiology assure me that the control structures for a
>4-limb being are significantly different than for a 6-limb one.

Cheat by finding someone who knows what they're talking about, will you! I
am undone! :(

But, could you switch control from legs to wings while flying? Have a
landing cycle that brings you down safe, so you turn that on when you want
to land, and then switch back to leg mode. The autopilot brings you in, and
your legs are ready to take your weight. You'd need some sort of computer
control to keep the wings in the correct rim (or whatever), but i still
think it's possible (if you accept the idea that simsense, spirits and
dragons are possible).

It'd be sort of like riding a bike, changing from one sort of
semi-reflexive motion (leg-based balance motions, semicircular/ovoid foot
movement relative to body) to another (no leg-based balance motions,
circular foot motion relative to body). All IMHO of course.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON
Message no. 4
From: jaimie.nicholson@********.otago.ac.nz (Jaimie Nicholson)
Subject: Re: Wings and Grenades
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:52:12 +0800
> correct rim (or whatever)

Trim, damnit, I meant trim.

>changing from one sort of
>semi-reflexive motion (leg-based balance motions, semicircular/ovoid foot
>movement relative to body) to another (no leg-based balance motions,
>circular foot motion relative to body).

Different times of applying force too, the downstroke of riding the bike,
the back-stroke of walking.

I really should have proof-read my earlier message, shouldn't I? Oh well,
worse things happen at sea.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON
Message no. 5
From: "Kevin Prier" <PRIER@*******.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: Wings and Grenades
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:02:11 PDT
Shunting input from the wings through to the leg centers of the brain
might work, at the expense of losing all leg control for the
duration. This might make steering difficult, though, since you
would have about a third of your body weight flapping around behind
you as you fly. It is also a very different movement. Not just in
the flap vs. walk aspect, but it is also synchronous movement instead
of alternating (wings flap together, like hopping, legs move in
alternating steps while walking).

(light bulb flashes overhead)

How about linking them to the arms: the hands fit into handles on
the leading edge of the wing, and the power train of the wing is
driven by the arm and pectoral muscles as you move your arms. It
would be much more Essence friendly on the neurological side, since
you would be tapping into peripheral nerves instead of the CNS
(except for the folding/unfolding), and the movement would be much
more "natural". You would also have your legs available to steer and
land on uneven surfaces.

The drawback here is of course that you can't do anything else with
your hands while using the wings, but logically it should work.

Kevin Prier
(BTW, I have a PhD in neural physiology, so I feel somewhat qualified
to comment on this ;-) )
Message no. 6
From: NIGHTFOX <djwa@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wings and Grenades
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 11:05:34 -0700 (MST)
On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Kevin Prier wrote:
> How about linking them to the arms: the hands fit into handles on
> the leading edge of the wing, and the power train of the wing is
> driven by the arm and pectoral muscles as you move your arms. It
> would be much more Essence friendly on the neurological side, since
> you would be tapping into peripheral nerves instead of the CNS
> (except for the folding/unfolding), and the movement would be much
> more "natural". You would also have your legs available to steer and
> land on uneven surfaces.

Use a variation of the control system used in the torso mounted weapons
from cybertechnologies



Nightfox
Message no. 7
From: Brad Shantz <BRADS@*********.com>
Subject: RE: Wings and Grenades
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:25:33 -0700
This reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon when Ratbert felt his arms were
flatter than his parents'. So, he felt eventually rats would evolve to
be able to fly and walked away flapping his arms thinking, "too soon."
He of course told Dilbert who insulted him as having a stupid idea.
Ratbert then went to Bob the Dinosaur and asked him. Bob said, "Maybe
you're not flapping hard enough."

The closing frame had Ratbert hovering in front of Dilbert saying, "It
must be embarassing to be you."

Anyway, back to the subject at hand....

Dr. Prier has it correct....Hi, Kevin. If the power train of the wings
were driven by the pect and also a mxture of the trapezius, deltoids,
and lats, you'd have far more endurance while flying. (you can tell
what kind of a mood I'm in. I'm picturing Arthur from The Tick in his
moth outfit, sweating profusely as he flaps and glides.) Unfortunately,
I think I have to agree with the person who said hollowing of the bones
would be a viable option, but the essence cost would be too high. I
think that Kevin's comment on it being a 3rd of your body weight hanging
as dead weight below you would be underestimated. Your center of
gravity would be completely off kilter.

Wings are a neat idea, but I think they are technically impossible.

Brad


>
Message no. 8
From: jaimie.nicholson@********.otago.ac.nz (Jaimie Nicholson)
Subject: Re: Wings and Grenades
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:20:56 +1200 (NZST)
Kevin:

>Shunting input from the wings through to the leg centers of the brain
>might work, at the expense of losing all leg control for the
>duration. This might make steering difficult, though, since you
>would have about a third of your body weight flapping around behind
>you as you fly.

Thats the price you pay. There could be a nervous override put in there
that stiffens the legs up, maybe. You'd need abdominals of steel though.

>It is also a very different movement. Not just in
>the flap vs. walk aspect, but it is also synchronous movement instead
>of alternating (wings flap together, like hopping, legs move in
>alternating steps while walking).

People can hop though. And those star-jump exercise things (I don't know if
that is the accepted international term for them, but what the hell)
involve a sort of flapping motion. If you practiced flapping your legs, you
could do it eventually, especially if the power source was not your own, so
you didn't get cramps, pulled muscles, etc.

>(light bulb flashes overhead)
>
>How about linking them to the arms: the hands fit into handles on
>the leading edge of the wing, and the power train of the wing is
>driven by the arm and pectoral muscles as you move your arms. It
>would be much more Essence friendly on the neurological side, since
>you would be tapping into peripheral nerves instead of the CNS
>(except for the folding/unfolding), and the movement would be much
>more "natural". You would also have your legs available to steer and
>land on uneven surfaces.
>
>The drawback here is of course that you can't do anything else with
>your hands while using the wings, but logically it should work.

I'd rather have my arms free than my legs. Sooner or later the guy's gonna
want to fly down with a sword of flames and cleave someone in half (or
something else angelic).

Nightfox:

>Use a variation of the control system used in the torso mounted weapons
>from cybertechnologies

For the wings, you mean? Or to solve the arms-occupied problem? Either way,
could be done, I guess. Run the wings through that method, and you'd have
both arms and legs free.

Brad:

>If the power train of the wings
>were driven by the pect and also a mxture of the trapezius, deltoids,
>and lats, you'd have far more endurance while flying.

I don't think the DesAng was suggesting powering them with his own muscle,
that would be a little too out there. Maybe a mini-fusion plant...

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON

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