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Message no. 1
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:22:53 +0000
I have a problem.

Everybody on the list knows that Easy was due to meet Twitch, assuming
that Easy shared that information with every living soul around. It was
shared with a few, that's for sure. However, there seems to be a lot of
"player knowledge" and asssumption coming to the fore here. People who
were not connected know that Twitch killed Easy. People who weren't
even in the city know that Twitch killed Easy. I'm not too happy about
that. I'd like to know how they know.


I appreciate that Easy is a popular character. Well, too bad. What a
shame. Assumptions are very dangerous things to have. You people want
to kill Twitch, fine, do so. But think about it first. You are all
Shadowrunners - except for the corporate types of course. It would make
sense to me that it would be more advisable for the characters to
consider their own fate rather than threaten that of another. Easy
lived a dangerous life, she has been, thanks to Paul, very lucky in that
life. Far more than another similar person would have been. Easy died,
rather easily neh? She fell into a trap that could catch anybody. Who
else could be killed as well? Anybody. The player might not like it,
but everybody is in danger. Do not assume that because Twitch is a new
character, and I have no concern over having my characters killed, that
I will allow him to simply die, whether or not he accepts Griffyn's
challenge. Whether or not he walks into the sights of a sniper, on some
bogus job. It is my choice whether he dies. Until I agree, there is
nothing anybody can do, nes pa? <g>


Please consider before the entire list decides "Oh twitch has to die,
because he killed Easy." The evidence is circumstantial, there is no
proof, and the player knowledge sneaking into the Shadowtk posts, is
getting - annoying. Neither he, nor anybody else has confirmed that
Twitch created the bomb, nobody has any proof that he was there. Nobody
has any proof that he even has the ability. Unfortunately Paul wrote
the post a little early, and used a method Twitch is not very well known
for. You see, he likes souvenirs.


If anyone is privvy to Private communications between Nakamura and
Twitch, would they please like to explain the method used to tap into
the four posts that were made between them.


Regardless of all the above. It may even be that Twitch is in cahoots
with Easy, a bomb in a van, a big bomb... And he's not hiding, knowing
that a massive portion of the Seattle shadow community is out to "get"
him. Hmmm.... puzzling that?


Understand one thing. Twitch is not another Thunda. He's a man doing
work. Easy was work, a contract. And you can't tell me that nobody
else hasn't done anything like this.


Wanna put a contract on Twitch's head. OK, do it. Hunt him down, and
kill him like a dog, I could, quite honestly care less. But prepare to
get hurt. He's not going to go quietly, or nicely. And if there's one
thing Twitch does well, it's kill. He's had lots of practice, and has
spent his entire life skipping the law, and other unpleasantness on the
streets.


For anybody that's interested, you can meet Twitch in more detail at

http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/edgerunners/bad_guys/twitch.htm


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 2
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:35:14 +0000
In message <IzucwiAtPGo0Ewrl@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
<Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes

>Understand one thing. Twitch is not another Thunda. He's a man doing
>work. Easy was work, a contract. And you can't tell me that nobody
>else hasn't done anything like this.

I might point out that Easy has done this, quite frequently. She lived
by the gun and died by the bomb. Only Querty, AFAIK, offered any
comeback on the assorted casualties she left in her wake.
Message no. 3
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:45:14 +0000
I have to agree with DA on that one...

I've been pretty hard-pressed to follow this thread...Why do so many
people know Twitch killed her? We've got more than a handful of wetworkers
on this list, some are more qualified than Twitch (Ein_Schuss (Doubtful,
but plausible, money can do strange things), War, many of Easy's enemies,
etc.). And Twitch has no prior experience with Easy (as far as we know,
of course). Why not hunt KCP? Nakamura? one of the COT? Some of the
people who are known to hate Easy's guts? Why suddenly do we have to target
Twitch?

Another thing. Some of the posts may lead us to believe that Easy may not be
dead. That's cool. But we should'nt be afraid to kill off one of the
mainstays of this list...Shadowrunners don't have an old-timers league, as
far as I know (to quote one of my favorite movies :) ), and the risks
involved are enormous... You can't expect to live forever, no matter how
good you are.

Now, I don't mean no disrespect to some of you, who have played these
characters RL and entertained us with some wonderful posts, but in the
5-6 months I've been here, I have never, ever seen even one main character
die... Not one. Come to think of it, the only "good guys" who have died
were, IIRC, Mom, Squatter (I think), and Mom's friend (can't remember
the name, starts with W, I think)...

See how Easy's death shook the list? That's the kind of thing that starts
threads, wars, and excellent posts. That's the kind of thing that can
make this thread memorable... But, as I see it (and I'm probably wrong,
but anyways), Everyone and their dog will hunt Twitch, and Easy will come
back from the dead, and triumphantly crush KPC, Nakamura, and all enemies.
My opinions are probably bullshit, but I wouldn't want to see that. "Good
guys" don't always win, and threads don't always end with the heroes
riding off into the sunset...

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 4
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:43:38 MST
I'll speak up for my characters. 1) Geiger's crew [i.e. Croaker] was
watching Easy's club, and heard the news. They know Griffyn. They
heard Griffyn's reaction. That is all they currently need to discuss
matters. They told Scourge, Doomsday, and the rest of Geiger's crew.
Jester playing with Croaker found out via a similar route. For the
record, except for Jester and Croaker, Geiger's crew and guests are
praying that it is a faked death.

Nightmare knew something was up when Griffyn announced his hatred
about Twitch. It got confirmed when Scourge called him. Nightmare
so far has only made an offer of money and interestingly, not a
bounty on Twitch.

Jester took a dislike of Twitch before he accepted the job, let alone
completed it. Jester in his rambling, triggered Death to pay
attention. He hasn't figured out what exactly is going on, and in
the meantime has other concerns. Death is a waiting time bomb.
Based on what Jester did, he is going to have to order someone's
death and pay Death accordingly. Who's will be an interesting
question.

Shadowfox and Midnight are so far unaware, but I wonder how long that
will be, considering the number of mutual friends.

Ratspeak, if he/she/it has figured out, (Ratspeak does make finding
out juicy gossip a priority.) Ratspeak doesn't give a damn what has
Griffyn pissed off at Twitches. Anything Ratspeak doesn't know, the
rodent makes up anyway. Just as long as it sounds good. Unless
Ratspeak is told to go hunting for what the truth really is.

(For the record, Ratspeak knows enough because the rodent tapped the
line that Scourge called Nightmare on.)

Gunner doesn't know yet, but when he does, he will be pissed. No
telling what Whirlwind will do when he finds out. Legion doesn't
know, nor would they care.

Mike

PS. Before I decided on any of those reactions, I asked Paul how
quickly my characters would hear about it...


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Author: ShadowTk Plot and Administrative Discussion
<PLOTD@********.ITRIBE.NET> at SMTP-PO
Date: 12/23/97 6:58 PM


I have a problem.

Everybody on the list knows that Easy was due to meet Twitch, assuming
that Easy shared that information with every living soul around. It was
shared with a few, that's for sure. However, there seems to be a lot of
"player knowledge" and asssumption coming to the fore here. People who
were not connected know that Twitch killed Easy. People who weren't
even in the city know that Twitch killed Easy. I'm not too happy about
that. I'd like to know how they know.
Message no. 5
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:40:57 +0000
In article <s9T5SfAiTHo0Ew+w@********.demon.co.uk>, "Paul J. Adam"
<shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK> waffled & burbled about Complaint -
well, not really, but...
>In message <IzucwiAtPGo0Ewrl@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
><Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>
>>Understand one thing. Twitch is not another Thunda. He's a man doing
>>work. Easy was work, a contract. And you can't tell me that nobody
>>else hasn't done anything like this.
>
>I might point out that Easy has done this, quite frequently. She lived
>by the gun and died by the bomb. Only Querty, AFAIK, offered any
>comeback on the assorted casualties she left in her wake.

And Urbanus. Over a rather prolonged argument once. :)


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 6
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:33:16 MST
Frank said:

>Now, I don't mean no disrespect to some of you, who have played these
>characters RL and entertained us with some wonderful posts, but in the
>5-6 months I've been here, I have never, ever seen even one main character
>die... Not one. Come to think of it, the only "good guys" who have died
>were, IIRC, Mom, Squatter (I think), and Mom's friend (can't remember
>the name, starts with W, I think)...

Actually, there have been a lot of main characters (both good and
bad) to buy the agricultural property.

Off the top of my head, my partial list is:
Ganz, Powerhouse, Scarface, Doc Jones, HAMMER, Doc Grizzle (which
basically started DragonEyes descent into Pestilence).

I missing a bunch, but Powerhouse, Ganz, and HAMMER death's all
rocked the list pretty hard. Now granted, recently, there haven't
been any from my camp, but I suspect that is only a lull before the
storm. As Brian Rogers can verify, I do get bloody. (Btw, I still
think out of all my posts over the year, my personal favorite is
Blitzkrieg burying his friend Powerhouse. Emotion. Fuck yeah!)

>See how Easy's death shook the list? That's the kind of thing that
>starts threads, wars, and excellent posts. That's the kind of thing that
>can make this thread memorable... But, as I see it (and I'm probably
>wrong, but anyways), Everyone and their dog will hunt Twitch, and Easy
>will come back from the dead, and triumphantly crush KPC, Nakamura, and
>all enemies. My opinions are probably bullshit, but I wouldn't want to
>see that. "Good guys" don't always win, and threads don't always end
>with the heroes riding off into the sunset...

Good guys don't always win. Very true. There is another category I
am fond of though.... if they do win, is it a true victory or really
a mistake waiting happen?

Case in point, Archangel taking on the Wraith from last Christmas. A
lot of innocents died. For what? Archangel to change his name to
Death and DragonEyes change his name to Pestilence? To have Scarface
mowed down by Nightmare? I'm sure that made Kor and others feel like
they won in Berlin. Nightmare sure felt he lost the battle and
doomed DragonEyes after that battle. And later, because of Death and
Pestilence pathes changed, the heroes end up having to work with a
person they can't stand [the Wanderer] to boot? The only saving
grace of Death's group is Pestilence, and that is not saying anything
positive anymore.

The only one story that has come off as a clear victory of the heroes
(in my stories) that has come of cleanly (so far) is the
Nightmare/Colleen "rescue." (and that had bitter points about it as
well, because the real enemy wasn't identified.)

Harley and Haze were the good guys (as strange as that sounds for
Haze -- a copkiller) in going against War and company, and they lost.
The major story before that, the villians all got away. The one
before that, the villians were never truly identified (Shadowfox
neglected to tell anyone what was really going on), but they did
finally nail HAMMER. However, they lost Shadowfox's [preganent] wife
in the process, and Scarface tried to gain revenge (and thus)
betraying the heroes to add to the mess.

I've been going slow as I have been sorting through what I want my
remaining individual characters to accomplish. Killing off a main
character (for me) is difficult. Once it is dead, you can't go back
to that personality. For instance, if I killed off Blitzkrieg, I
wouldn't feel comfortable with another musician. (Even though
Nightingale who is stuck in prison (still) qualifies as one.)



All this is of course, IMHO.
Mike
Message no. 7
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:11:23 +0000
In article <199712240355.WAA18466@****.qc.ca>, Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> waffled & burbled about Complaint - well, not
really, but...
>I have to agree with DA on that one...

Well, thanks Frank.

>Now, I don't mean no disrespect to some of you, who have played these
>characters RL and entertained us with some wonderful posts, but in the
>5-6 months I've been here, I have never, ever seen even one main character
>die... Not one. Come to think of it, the only "good guys" who have died
>were, IIRC, Mom, Squatter (I think), and Mom's friend (can't remember
>the name, starts with W, I think)...

So far, I've lost four major characters to the list. Most recently the
Dark Avenger, who has been here for slightly over a year. Most people
who actually read the crap I post will be familiar with the concept that
I don't consider anybody indestructible, and will happily kill off major
characters if it fits the plot. I get bored with playing the same
person for too long. And death is as good a change as anything.

>See how Easy's death shook the list?

Should've seen the ruckus caused by Thunda last Christmas. All he did
was insult a few Dandelion eaters and blow up a couple of useless
buildings. <grin>

>That's the kind of thing that starts
>threads, wars, and excellent posts. That's the kind of thing that can
>make this thread memorable... But, as I see it (and I'm probably wrong,
>but anyways), Everyone and their dog will hunt Twitch, and Easy will come
>back from the dead, and triumphantly crush KPC, Nakamura, and all enemies.
>My opinions are probably bullshit, but I wouldn't want to see that. "Good
>guys" don't always win, and threads don't always end with the heroes
>riding off into the sunset...

Just all the best 'B' movies.

The guys in white always win, and get to play another day. <yawn>

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 8
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 04:27:49 +0000
In article <9711238829.AA882936191@*********.comm.twcable.com>, Mike
Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> waffled & burbled about
Complaint - well, not really, but...


Biggus snippus of impressive Character catalogue. OK, Jester took a
dislike to Twitch. Not a difficult thing to do I'll grant you. But,
and this is a slightly different question, but linked. Why would they
care?


Easy was a friend? Big deal, friends die, especially if they live by
the sword.


They all owe Easy a favour? I find that hard to swallow.


You contacted Paul beforehand, that's fine. I usually talk to Paul
first before getting involved in his plots as well <g> Well, not
always, sometimes he just involves me... :)


Are your characters - or anyone elses for that matter likely to avenge
the death of every friend killed in the line of fire? That would make
them very busy, and mean a lot of people getting killed - ah, there's
that word again - Killed. But of course, no-one else is guilty of ever
killing anyone are they <g> Nope, only the Twitcher. Close friends of
Easy, like Mani, Griffyn, and a few others I can understand them getting
upset, some, like Mani, I can understand hunting Twitch. But seriously,
what is the logic for everyone to do so? It will cost them financially,
to track him, pay contacts/informants etc. It will cost them in blood
and sweat, some may even die at his hand (not unfeasible) and in the end
provide no profit. Thunda was different, he was a terrorist, intent on
causing as much death and destruction as possible. Twitch is merely an
employee. Simple as that. He poses no threat to society in general
except for being an unpleasant snot.


Paul and I have had a similar argument on the logic of hunting people
down for little reason on the Shadowrn list with other people, and it
seems that the general consensus there is if you raid a corp, they will
expend every penny they own hunting you down. I find it disappointing
to encounter the same attitude here.


Well, you should all know by now where Twitch is. I'm sure Griffyn will
share the information. All I need now is a list of characters who are
going to Cougar Mountain Park to hunt him, and who is prepared to die.
Because Twitch will be there, and he will be waiting, and he will kill
people.


Any takers?

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk - Shadowtk Newbies Guide & Edgerunners Datastore
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 9
From: "Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:11:49 -0800
According to Avenger:
>Paul and I have had a similar argument on the logic of hunting people
>down for little reason on the Shadowrn list with other people, and it
>seems that the general consensus there is if you raid a corp, they will
>expend every penny they own hunting you down. I find it disappointing
>to encounter the same attitude here.

I'm of two minds about this issue. On one hand, I can see certain tight-knit
group of runners who have some philanthropic (sic) leanings, partially as a
form of penance for the lifestyle they've chosen to lead (though they might not
admit this or even think of it in those terms =) OTOH, there is such a thing
as excessive zeal to avenge a "crime" against the shadows. On the third hand,
Easy has had some support from sources that we've not seen in action yet,
including (if memory serves) at least one dragon. I'd be surprised if there
weren't some wheels turning somewhere where the players can't see that will
bode ill for the relevant mafiosi.

>Well, you should all know by now where Twitch is. I'm sure Griffyn will
>share the information. All I need now is a list of characters who are
>going to Cougar Mountain Park to hunt him, and who is prepared to die.
>Because Twitch will be there, and he will be waiting, and he will kill
>people.

Heh...none of my people consider this their fight. One more operator
specializing in wetwork isn't going to really upset the scene much, though I
suspect that they're disappointed in seeing what was an honestly positive
community move being damaged. I'm sure that my characters are, if anything,
more interested in the organized crime dynamics behind all this.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 10
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:44:26 +0000
In article <199712240511.VAA19281@*****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, "Mark L.
Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about
Complaint - well, not really, but...
>According to Avenger:
>>Paul and I have had a similar argument on the logic of hunting people
>>down for little reason on the Shadowrn list with other people, and it
>>seems that the general consensus there is if you raid a corp, they will
>>expend every penny they own hunting you down. I find it disappointing
>>to encounter the same attitude here.
>
>I'm of two minds about this issue. On one hand, I can see certain tight-knit
>group of runners who have some philanthropic (sic) leanings, partially as a
>form of penance for the lifestyle they've chosen to lead (though they might not
>admit this or even think of it in those terms =) OTOH, there is such a thing
>as excessive zeal to avenge a "crime" against the shadows.


Agreed. And yes, it does seem rather zealous to hunt a single
perpetrator when the organisation behind the troubles is thoroughly
enjoying it's success. And allowing for the fact that "two" crime
families are involved (Yak and Mafiosi) it seems curious that Twitch is
such a centre of attention.


(Unless of course, the list are responding to a potential Thunda threat
again - as if I would...) :)


Or maybe it's because the characters are inadequate for the job of
destroying the crime families involved and are picking on someone they
can beat up. :) Just like all good bullies. :)


>On the third hand,
>Easy has had some support from sources that we've not seen in action yet,
>including (if memory serves) at least one dragon. I'd be surprised if there
>weren't some wheels turning somewhere where the players can't see that will
>bode ill for the relevant mafiosi.


Yeah, I can see certain things occurring in respect to the organised
crime. From Lynch at SIGA certainly - he seemed to consider Easy a
friend. Maybe even from a couple of people at the FBI project, though
that's doubtful, however, organised crime is involved - which is
certainly of Federal interest... :) I can't see a dragon taking any
interest in a single person on this kind of scale, but certainly the
organisation, depending on whether or not the Dragon owed Easy, and
whether it really gave a damn about a speck of humanity that might have
been a tasty crunchy munchy.


>>Well, you should all know by now where Twitch is. I'm sure Griffyn will
>>share the information. All I need now is a list of characters who are
>>going to Cougar Mountain Park to hunt him, and who is prepared to die.
>>Because Twitch will be there, and he will be waiting, and he will kill
>>people.
>
>Heh...none of my people consider this their fight.


I expect that answer to be the general one. I don't for one minute
really expect any "characters" to be offered up for execution. <g>


>One more operator
>specializing in wetwork isn't going to really upset the scene much,


I shouldn't think so. Of course... there is always the exception, after
all, Twitch killed Easy, maybe Lynch is next, or Serenity in it's
entirety, or maybe the President (nah, that's a bit passe, and it's been
done several times already :) ) Maybe... Yeah, that's it, he's gonna
kill the entire Sioux nation single handed, and take over the land
ruling it like Sauron... He's obviously gotta die.


Then again, maybe not.


>though I
>suspect that they're disappointed in seeing what was an honestly positive
>community move being damaged. I'm sure that my characters are, if anything,
>more interested in the organized crime dynamics behind all this.


And there's the crux. Dissapointment at community improvement. OK, some
may feel that way, to others it's just another watering hole, to others
still, it's fate. If it hadn't been a bomb, it'd be the organised
element, if it wasn't them, it'd eventually be a corp after new, cheap
territory. Respectability and peace doesn't (or IMO shouldn't) come
easily to people who spend their lives on the edge of death, dealing in
death casually. Melding with a concerned society who frowns on such
actions would be difficult at best, and impossible at worst - but that's
a discussion best left for Shadowrn - or a military list.


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 11
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:07:50 MST
Shameless requoting from the owner of Twitch:

>Biggus snippus of impressive Character catalogue. OK, Jester took a
>dislike to Twitch. Not a difficult thing to do I'll grant you. But,
>and this is a slightly different question, but linked. Why would they
>care?

Jester is a special case (in several ways). As far as the rest of
Geiger's crew is concerned: they aren't pursuing the matter because
it conflicts with their current job. Croaker is upset because he
actually was hoping that her project would succeed. (And well, he
hates to see beautiful women get killed.) Yes, she was a friend of
the group, and it sucks to see friends die. If they can do something
in the future to inconvenience the tool or the root cause of why she
died, they will. Right now isn't their time, unless someone hires
them.

They care, because they don't like seeing a friend die. Seeing them
die to father time is one thing. A corp guard, another, one of their
peers? That cuts a little to close to home. Most of Geiger's crew
don't know her well enough to avenge her.

>They all owe Easy a favour? I find that hard to swallow.

Nightmare does. And he is reacting, although in typical Nightmare
fashion. Which could mean a lot of things.

>Are your characters - or anyone elses for that matter likely to
>avenge the death of every friend killed in the line of fire? That

Avenge isn't the word I would use. All my characters would react to
a death of a person they know and/or have heard about. Some would
try to get revenge. Some are wiser than that. However, they all
would react in their own way. As you noticed, I haven't at all
responded to your first response (on plot-d) about what was stopping
some character (notice I didn't even say which one) from hiring you
and sniping you on the spot, and the reason isn't any of the
arguments that you offered have persuaded me from that action, but
rather that it was not an appropriate response for them to react that
way, yet.

Btw, IMHO, the way Twitch is acting, he should have an employer
double cross him. None of the people hiring him would respect a
person with that attitude. In my game, he would get double crossed
on almost every job, unless he is constantly getting hired by people
that are outright desperate all the time (which I would doubt).
Either that, or they would "forget" to pay him the completion fee for
the job. If he doesn't meet them personally, and they are only a
name here, it would make it difficult to track down and force them to
pay Twitch.

One of the few ways to track them down after such an act, would be to
research your victim and figure out who the potential employers were
and then go from there, but that seems to be more work than Twitch
puts in for a job.

>Well, you should all know by now where Twitch is. I'm sure Griffyn will
>share the information. All I need now is a list of characters who are
>going to Cougar Mountain Park to hunt him, and who is prepared to die.
>Because Twitch will be there, and he will be waiting, and he will kill
>people.

Not from my crew. Yet.

There will always be certain character deaths that will spark at
least a few characters from trying to get revenge for the death on
both the tool, and the overall employer for the assassin. That is
the way things go.

M.
Message no. 12
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:47:29 +0000
In message <199712240355.WAA18466@****.qc.ca>, Frank Pelletier
<jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA> writes
> But, as I see it (and I'm probably wrong,
>but anyways), Everyone and their dog will hunt Twitch,

I admit I didn't expect that...

>and Easy will come
>back from the dead, and triumphantly crush KPC, Nakamura, and all enemies.

Oh, no. You never crush _all_ your enemies, you merely widen the circle
of people who hate you :) Wait until Cholo and his crew show, for
instance, and work out how they got to be the likeable individuals that
they are...

Leaving the list PCs aside, Heihachi has currently made lasting enemies
of most of the Easy Eight staff, and many people living in the area who
came to appreciate stability, safe drinking water and food. Most of them
are armed, if limited in talent and mobility. Heihachi's just bought
into an insurgency.


>My opinions are probably bullshit, but I wouldn't want to see that. "Good
>guys" don't always win, and threads don't always end with the heroes
>riding off into the sunset...

And here's a misconception, for instance. Right now, Tariq Akbar's
Yemeni Jihad are being destroyed and scattered by Rusanov's Rebels (with
heavy corporate backing) in a decisively one-sided battle.

And this is exactly what their sponsors wanted to happen, and has helped
their plans come to fruition.

"Winning" is not all it could be, on occasion.
Message no. 13
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:04:18 +0000
In article <9711238829.AA882943991@*********.comm.twcable.com>, Mike
Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> waffled & burbled about
Complaint - well, not really, but...
>Shameless requoting from the owner of Twitch:
>

<Snip of character reaction and thoughts which seem perfectly
reasonable.>

>>Are your characters - or anyone elses for that matter likely to
>>avenge the death of every friend killed in the line of fire? That
>
>Avenge isn't the word I would use.

It seemed the most appropriate word. I can't honestly think of anything
else that would fit the reaction that seems to have occurred as a result
of Easy's death,

>All my characters would react to
>a death of a person they know and/or have heard about.

That's a fair comment. But "react" holds, as I'm sure you'll agree -
many meanings.

>Some would
>try to get revenge. Some are wiser than that. However, they all
>would react in their own way.

Again, agreed. I have that situation in one of my other plots, but the
person that died there was a personal friend and mentor of the
participants, this I feel would result in a different reaction to the
rabid "hunt him - kill him" attitude of the list at present. None of my
characters would hunt down and exterminate another character for doing a
"job". They would, most likely try to get at the people behind the
contract if the person killed was a close companion. An acquaintance?
Hell, the streets are dangerous enough without inviting attention.

>As you noticed, I haven't at all
>responded to your first response (on plot-d) about what was stopping
>some character (notice I didn't even say which one) from hiring you
>and sniping you on the spot, and the reason isn't any of the
>arguments that you offered have persuaded me from that action, but
>rather that it was not an appropriate response for them to react that
>way, yet.

Again, I would expect that sort of reaction if a vendetta or situation
provoked it. Easy was a contract. I can see some sickening of the
situation where characters wouldn't like that a member of the shadows
had attacked another of that area. But it's not like it's unique in the
history of Shadowrun. A contract is a contract is a contract.

>Btw, IMHO, the way Twitch is acting, he should have an employer
>double cross him. None of the people hiring him would respect a
>person with that attitude. In my game, he would get double crossed
>on almost every job, unless he is constantly getting hired by people
>that are outright desperate all the time (which I would doubt).
>Either that, or they would "forget" to pay him the completion fee for
>the job.

This is why most of his life, Twitch has been a squatter, with no money,
and no property to speak of. Most of his money comes from dealing in
designer drugs and selling them to users in the "lower" areas of
Seattle. He makes sufficient from this, to keep himself in food, and
when he doesn't he mugs people. He has been betrayed many times, and as
you mention below, hunting down an employer who has crossed him is - in
most cases beyond his ability. The reasoning for using a proxy, is that
Twitch is a tad unpredictable, and has, previously killed potential
employers - he realised this was a mistake after going for some
considerable time without work, and has taken it upon himself (in a
moment of lucidity) to not do that anymore. :)

>If he doesn't meet them personally, and they are only a
>name here, it would make it difficult to track down and force them to
>pay Twitch.

Difficult if not impossible.

>One of the few ways to track them down after such an act, would be to
>research your victim and figure out who the potential employers were
>and then go from there, but that seems to be more work than Twitch
>puts in for a job.

Twitch is a teeny bit stupid in that he expects others to be as honest
as he is. He gets contracted to do something, he does it. If he
doesn't get paid, he is likely to cast about in anger and smash a few
things, but being able to hunt an employer and extract payment that way,
is not something I feel he is capable of doing. Except in one or two of
the more simple cases.

>>Well, you should all know by now where Twitch is. I'm sure Griffyn will
>>share the information. All I need now is a list of characters who are
>>going to Cougar Mountain Park to hunt him, and who is prepared to die.
>>Because Twitch will be there, and he will be waiting, and he will kill
>>people.
>
>Not from my crew. Yet.
>
>There will always be certain character deaths that will spark at
>least a few characters from trying to get revenge for the death on
>both the tool, and the overall employer for the assassin. That is
>the way things go.


I agree. A few. So far there has been what I would describe as a knee
jerk reaction, and Twitch has become a target for retribution that is
undeserved. A little research will reveal a basic background on Twitch,
he's a bit strange, but essentially no different to anyone else. The
thing I found irritating, which is what prompted this thread, is that
there was a comment regarding Killing Nakamura, but the focus of the
hunt seemed to be Twitch. i found this interesting from the point of
view, that other named characters have suffered from a variety of
similar situations, including in the odd case death at the hands of
another that didn't result in this manic manhunt reaction. I don't have
the time to check the logs at the moment, but did the death of Frypp (a
surprisingly popular character) result in the invasion of the CFS?


I'm not trying to be defensive of my character, even though it might
seem that way. Just rationalise the reaction of the characters on
Shadowtk, to someone who is essentially not responsible for his actions.
Twitch knew that Easy had friends, that much was obvious from the short
time he spent in the area of her bar. But he would certainly not have
expected such a reaction - although at this moment, he doesn't know
exactly what and who is/are being aligned against him. He was given a
contract, and honoured that contract - a commendable thing to do in
normal circumstances. So far, only one other person has seen an ironic
solution to this, and they are waiting for something before that can be
put into effect.


It is more than possible for the list to kill him. That is not a
subject of debate. The reason for killing him is. The reaction against
a target that is "easy" compared to the harder targets of Heihachi,
Nakamura, Bartolo and Chun Pak, I feel would reflect against the
characters involved in the hunt. Take a target that is relatively
simple rather than risk life and limb killing a crime family.


Pouring personal money into an ideal is likely to be a logical reaction
for certain people, depending on how much they care about something, and
whether they wish to maintain a monument to a friend. So, financially
supporting the Easy Eight, is not a problem. A couple of my characters
would likely do the same thing if they were closer to Easy. But they
wouldn't hunt the person responsible for the killing. Destroying the
business of the contractee - especially where they are well known to
have desired this situation, would be a personal thing. Killing the
assassin would, in my opinion be a casual thing that would be considered
should they ever meet. Shadowtk has four possible targets, yet they
pick on a runner to answer their desire for blood. Curious.

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 14
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:23:41 +0000
On 24 Dec 97 at 12:47, Paul J. Adam wrote:
[snip]
> Leaving the list PCs aside, Heihachi has currently made lasting enemies
> of most of the Easy Eight staff, and many people living in the area who
> came to appreciate stability, safe drinking water and food. Most of them
> are armed, if limited in talent and mobility. Heihachi's just bought
> into an insurgency.
Which reminds me...

For those who wonder what Ein_Schuss means: As far as he knows, Kim
Chun Pak was the one who opposed Easy and her Easy Eight. Thus, he
supposes Kim is the one responsible for her death, and accepts the
payment he received once as "up front" for Kim's death - he lost a good
and relieable Johnson.

Unfortunately, he has no info on who did the hit, and thus hires
Twitch's help to geek Kim... well... :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | God is real |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| - |
| \___ __/ | | unless declared |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | integer. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | -- ??? |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 15
From: "Mark A. Imbriaco" <perlhacker@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:25:41 -0800
>Well, you should all know by now where Twitch is. I'm sure Griffyn will
>share the information. All I need now is a list of characters who are
>going to Cougar Mountain Park to hunt him, and who is prepared to die.
>Because Twitch will be there, and he will be waiting, and he will kill
>people.

Nope. Griffyn has no intention of telling anyone else about
Cougar Mountain.

-Mark
Message no. 16
From: "Mark A. Imbriaco" <perlhacker@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:29:03 -0800
>another that didn't result in this manic manhunt reaction. I don't have
>the time to check the logs at the moment, but did the death of Frypp (a
>surprisingly popular character) result in the invasion of the CFS?

If you look back in the logs, Griffyn got pretty damned upset about
Freddy Frypp's death as well and starting killing people and breaking
things. It's in his nature to be protective of his friends.

-Mark
Message no. 17
From: "Mark A. Imbriaco" <perlhacker@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:43:09 -0800
>Everybody on the list knows that Easy was due to meet Twitch, assuming
>that Easy shared that information with every living soul around. It was
>shared with a few, that's for sure. However, there seems to be a lot of
>"player knowledge" and asssumption coming to the fore here. People who
>were not connected know that Twitch killed Easy. People who weren't
>even in the city know that Twitch killed Easy. I'm not too happy about
>that. I'd like to know how they know.

Griffyn had several ways that he knew. 1) Easy was keeping him
informed about most everything that was going down and 2) Vincenzo
told him that Twitch was reponsible when he said that Mani is most
likely out hunting Twitch.

>I appreciate that Easy is a popular character. Well, too bad. What a
>shame. Assumptions are very dangerous things to have. You people want
>to kill Twitch, fine, do so. But think about it first. You are all
>Shadowrunners - except for the corporate types of course. It would make
>sense to me that it would be more advisable for the characters to
>consider their own fate rather than threaten that of another. Easy
>lived a dangerous life, she has been, thanks to Paul, very lucky in that
>life. Far more than another similar person would have been. Easy died,
>rather easily neh? She fell into a trap that could catch anybody. Who
>else could be killed as well? Anybody. The player might not like it,
>but everybody is in danger. Do not assume that because Twitch is a new
>character, and I have no concern over having my characters killed, that
>I will allow him to simply die, whether or not he accepts Griffyn's
>challenge. Whether or not he walks into the sights of a sniper, on some
>bogus job. It is my choice whether he dies. Until I agree, there is
>nothing anybody can do, nes pa? <g>

Absolutely right. It would, however, be totally out of character
for Griffyn _not_ to react to this in the way that he did. If you
go back through all of the logs you'll notice a trend in what happens
when a close friend of Griffyn's gets seriously injured or killed:
He flies off the handle and goes on a rampage trying to kill whoever
was responsible. Pretty straightforward and predictable, I know, but
that's the way he is. Granted, I did't expect all of the other
sundry folks who got involved to do so.

>Please consider before the entire list decides "Oh twitch has to die,
>because he killed Easy." The evidence is circumstantial, there is no
>proof, and the player knowledge sneaking into the Shadowtk posts, is
>getting - annoying. Neither he, nor anybody else has confirmed that
>Twitch created the bomb, nobody has any proof that he was there. Nobody
>has any proof that he even has the ability. Unfortunately Paul wrote
>the post a little early, and used a method Twitch is not very well known
>for. You see, he likes souvenirs.

No player knowledge from me with Griff's reaction. And with the
state that he is currently in, circumstantial evidence is fine with
him. He and Easy spent a great deal of time together and became
pretty close. Griffyn looks on her as a little sister. If someone
blew your little sister to pieces wouldn't you be ready to tear his
head off? Now with the ritual sending that Griff has planned, things
could change a lot. Everything is a little _too_ circumstantial at
the moment, and he doesn't totally believe that Easy was careless
enough to walk into a trap like that. Even if he finds out that
Easy isn't really dead, he'll suppose that Easy had a good reason
for faking her death and run with it and react as if she were truly
dead. The only one he would confide the truth in is most likely
Vincenzo. He would probably not show up at Cougar Mountain until
he knew more about what really happened if it turns out she's still
alive though.

>If anyone is privvy to Private communications between Nakamura and
>Twitch, would they please like to explain the method used to tap into
>the four posts that were made between them.

Griff knows nothing about a concrete connection. He knows that Vincenzo
said that Twitch killed Easy and that Roger Nakamura showed up at the
Easy Eight a conveniently short amount of time after that happened.
He's putting what he believes to be two plus two together here.
Basically, it's a shot in the dark, but to his mind at least it's a
good guess.


>Regardless of all the above. It may even be that Twitch is in cahoots
>with Easy, a bomb in a van, a big bomb... And he's not hiding, knowing
>that a massive portion of the Seattle shadow community is out to "get"
>him. Hmmm.... puzzling that?

Could be. Wouldn't be the first time that you and Paul have come
out of left field on us. :-)

>Understand one thing. Twitch is not another Thunda. He's a man doing
>work. Easy was work, a contract. And you can't tell me that nobody
>else hasn't done anything like this.

Absolutely. Griffyn himself is not pretty damned far from being
lily white himself.

>Wanna put a contract on Twitch's head. OK, do it. Hunt him down, and
>kill him like a dog, I could, quite honestly care less. But prepare to
>get hurt. He's not going to go quietly, or nicely. And if there's one
>thing Twitch does well, it's kill. He's had lots of practice, and has
>spent his entire life skipping the law, and other unpleasantness on the
>streets.

Also don't underestimate Griffyn. He is _not_ a light-weight.

-Mark
Message no. 18
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Complaint - well, not really, but...
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:48:06 +0000
In article <199712241343090330.0045BAB0@****.earthlink.net>, "Mark A.
Imbriaco" <perlhacker@*********.NET> waffled & burbled about Complaint -
well, not really, but...
>>Everybody on the list knows that Easy was due to meet Twitch, assuming
>>that Easy shared that information with every living soul around. It was
>>shared with a few, that's for sure. However, there seems to be a lot of
>>"player knowledge" and asssumption coming to the fore here. People who
>>were not connected know that Twitch killed Easy. People who weren't
>>even in the city know that Twitch killed Easy. I'm not too happy about
>>that. I'd like to know how they know.
>
> Griffyn had several ways that he knew. 1) Easy was keeping him
> informed about most everything that was going down and 2) Vincenzo
> told him that Twitch was reponsible when he said that Mani is most
> likely out hunting Twitch.

As I think I mentioned earlier, I can understand Griffyn, he was "close"
I can also understand Mani hunting Twitch, after all Mani had a crush on
Easy. It was the overwhelming "Kill 'im" that got me going :)

>>bogus job. It is my choice whether he dies. Until I agree, there is
>>nothing anybody can do, nes pa? <g>
>
> Absolutely right. It would, however, be totally out of character
> for Griffyn _not_ to react to this in the way that he did. If you
> go back through all of the logs you'll notice a trend in what happens
> when a close friend of Griffyn's gets seriously injured or killed:
> He flies off the handle and goes on a rampage trying to kill whoever
> was responsible. Pretty straightforward and predictable, I know, but
> that's the way he is. Granted, I did't expect all of the other
> sundry folks who got involved to do so.

I expected some reaction to Easy's death, it was the focus of that
reaction that I object too. Too many people "seem" to know the business
of someone that shared very little, and then only with those close to
her.

>>has any proof that he even has the ability. Unfortunately Paul wrote
>>the post a little early, and used a method Twitch is not very well known
>>for. You see, he likes souvenirs.
>
> dead. The only one he would confide the truth in is most likely
> Vincenzo. He would probably not show up at Cougar Mountain until
> he knew more about what really happened if it turns out she's still
> alive though.

Fair enough. I have little objection for several reasons to Griffyn's
involvement. It might even be interesting. :)

>>If anyone is privvy to Private communications between Nakamura and
>>Twitch, would they please like to explain the method used to tap into
>>the four posts that were made between them.
>
> Griff knows nothing about a concrete connection. He knows that Vincenzo
> said that Twitch killed Easy and that Roger Nakamura showed up at the
> Easy Eight a conveniently short amount of time after that happened.
> He's putting what he believes to be two plus two together here.
> Basically, it's a shot in the dark, but to his mind at least it's a
> good guess.

It's not Griffyn though Mark, there are others involved who appear to
have more knowledge than they are entitled to.

>>Regardless of all the above. It may even be that Twitch is in cahoots
>>with Easy, a bomb in a van, a big bomb... And he's not hiding, knowing
>>that a massive portion of the Seattle shadow community is out to "get"
>>him. Hmmm.... puzzling that?
>
> Could be. Wouldn't be the first time that you and Paul have come
> out of left field on us. :-)

Aw, that's not fair. We wouldn't do something like that to the list.
We're nice people. No way would we come out of left field, mid field
maybe. ;)

>>Understand one thing. Twitch is not another Thunda. He's a man doing
>>work. Easy was work, a contract. And you can't tell me that nobody
>>else hasn't done anything like this.
>
> Absolutely. Griffyn himself is not pretty damned far from being
> lily white himself.

Close friends are likely to get upset. I expect one or two of Paul's
other characters to get a tad upset upon their return, possibly even to
the point of some sort of involvement, but... And this is where I begin
to have the problem. It is not the personal nature of Mani's or
Griffyn's involvement, or even for that matter Nightmare and co, who are
also close friends, and Mike has already detailed the extent of his
involvement for the moment... It is the overwhelming reaction of so
many characters that strikes me as a tad unrealistic.

If Griffyn considers Easy as family. OK, he can come ahead. Mani also
is in the process of trying to kill Twitch, but for slightly different
reasons.


I can't believe in the "weight" of opposition from so many corners
though. That - I'm sorry to say, stretches my suspension of disbelief
just a little too far.

>>Wanna put a contract on Twitch's head. OK, do it. Hunt him down, and
>>kill him like a dog, I could, quite honestly care less. But prepare to
>>get hurt. He's not going to go quietly, or nicely. And if there's one
>>thing Twitch does well, it's kill. He's had lots of practice, and has
>>spent his entire life skipping the law, and other unpleasantness on the
>>streets.
>
> Also don't underestimate Griffyn. He is _not_ a light-weight.

I've noticed ;-)

Maybe a more reasonable diet away from the doughnuts perhaps <grin>


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)

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