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Message no. 1
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:23:13 -0700 (MST)
> >Nightfox
>
> Long time no see, Dan :)

Trying to graduate

I've been in college for WAY too long.


It is nice to see some familiar names that are still around.

Hopefully I can become a bit more active once I find a real job (ie - post
to talk)

Nightfox
Message no. 2
From: Jaimie Nicholson sandral@****.co.nz
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:03:04 +1200
> Unfortunately, the old archives are MIA...so I can't check. (Mark I.:
> Care to speculate on when the old logs and the finished cast database
> will be available from jackpoint.org?) Hmmm...it wasn't Quinn, was it
> Paul?

It wasn't Quinn, but I recall an incident involving the character plus
Easy and some others, at the end of which this goblinised elf was
knocked on her (?) ass by casting a big firebolt spell... Lynch and
Lilith were also present... at the end they drove off in a stolen limo
(Lilith asked whose car it was, Lynch said it was a limo, not a car,
Lilith said whose limo is this, he replied that it was >>farmer
underling who'd just been slain<<'s, and so on).
Message no. 3
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:23:13 -0700 (MST)
> >Nightfox
>
> Long time no see, Dan :)

Trying to graduate

I've been in college for WAY too long.


It is nice to see some familiar names that are still around.

Hopefully I can become a bit more active once I find a real job (ie - post
to talk)

Nightfox
Message no. 4
From: Jaimie Nicholson sandral@****.co.nz
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:03:04 +1200
> Unfortunately, the old archives are MIA...so I can't check. (Mark I.:
> Care to speculate on when the old logs and the finished cast database
> will be available from jackpoint.org?) Hmmm...it wasn't Quinn, was it
> Paul?

It wasn't Quinn, but I recall an incident involving the character plus
Easy and some others, at the end of which this goblinised elf was
knocked on her (?) ass by casting a big firebolt spell... Lynch and
Lilith were also present... at the end they drove off in a stolen limo
(Lilith asked whose car it was, Lynch said it was a limo, not a car,
Lilith said whose limo is this, he replied that it was >>farmer
underling who'd just been slain<<'s, and so on).
Message no. 5
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:12 -0800 (PST)
Consider this a vain attempt to see if people are still on PlotD
(including myself). But, a couple questions popped into my head these
past few days while working through some future story ideas.

Here's #1:

So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?

Now this may seem like a minor point, but it bears some thought,
especially if you have chacters interacting with the Tir, or say passing
themselves off as elven (or the opposite, an elf trying to pass
themselves off as human).

In the first case, if elves are vegetarian by choice, then it isn't
"quite" so big a deal, but it could definitely lead to some social
consequences, even if there is no deception meant. I.e. Mr. Johnson is
a devoutly vegan elf and your Sammie goes and orders a big steak to put
on his tab, they may become less friendly in very short order. (Much
worse than say, going into an Irish pub and ordering a Bud Lite.)

On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)

On the negative side, eating meat could mean as little as an upset
stomach, etc. for eating something that didn't "agree with them." That
could result in an embarrasing forced, unplanned, and uncomfortable trip
to the "little Shadowrunner's room." Or, there's nothing quite so great
for tipping off the Humanis group you've just infiltrated like throwing
up during their big BBQ get-together. Worse, it could mean a case of
blood poisoning or other unfortunate symptoms if their livers or kidneys
were not capable of adequately dealing with metabolizing protein or the
by-products thereof. An interesting word of warning: Mycoprotein, as
described, may be synthesized from modified bacteria or fungi, and so
"okay" by even vegan standards, but it _is_ basically identical to meat
on the molecular level so Elves might wish to avoid that trip to Stuffer
Shack or at least be very picky about what they order.

On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't, which
is why vegitarians today have to be careful with their diet to include
things like soy products (a.k.a. tofu) and supplements to make up for
what they don't get in a diet that doesn't includes meat. In addition,
it would be really nice to be able to digest cellulose which humans
can't but many herbivores can. That way you could get away with eating
a lot less to get the same amount of energy. But this also means, for
someone trying to pass themselves off as elven, something as subtle as
diet could tip people off, if they weren't careful.

Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? Debates
on my sanity?

--Catch you later

Jeff
Message no. 6
From: Bredget Stroud bstroud@*********.com
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:48:10 -0800
Jeff wrote:
*snip*

>>Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? >>Debates
>>on my sanity?
>>
>> --Catch you later
>>
>> Jeff


Very interesting. Most of that I would never have even thought of. I see it
now... my character is undercover as an elf and gets dusted for eating a ham
sandwich... No offense, but I'm glad you're not my GM... my characters would
have a very short life span... =) (jjk)

Bredget
Message no. 7
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:21:17 -0800 (PST)
Well, I guess this is getting through.

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Bredget Stroud wrote:

> Jeff wrote:
> *snip*
>
> >>Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)?
>>Debates
> >>on my sanity?
> >>
> >> --Catch you later
> >>
> >> Jeff
>
>
> Very interesting. Most of that I would never have even thought of. I see it
> now... my character is undercover as an elf and gets dusted for eating a ham
> sandwich... No offense, but I'm glad you're not my GM... my characters would
> have a very short life span... =) (jjk)

Heh. I suppose that could also happen if they were passing themselves
off as Mossad. =) Well, I would have never thought about it myself
without a character who is of elven decent and spends much of their time
passing themselves off as someone else and for whom paranoia is way of
life. So, what happens when they are trying to pass themselves off as
human and someone serves them some sushi? If you're the only one
throwing up, you can't exactly blame it on bad fish. So then, how do
you get around that sort of problem? Just be careful and stick to the
kappa rolls, I guess.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 8
From: the Dark Stranger darkstranger@*******.net
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:26:17 -0500
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:12 -0800 (PST) Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> wrote:

>So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
>(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
>really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
>necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?

I seem to recall this being a topic back on RN many moons ago, while I still had enough
free time at my previous job to partake of that list.

I don't recall that we ever really came up with a satisfying answer.

SR2 does state it outright, but that's dropped in SR3. I think that's because of the
various biological items you mentioned in your post. Have elves really
"awakened" to become vegetarians? That might be pushing the pseudo-scientific
background that SR builds much of it's world upon.

My thoughts are as follows, since I am unaware of any official rulings on this.

Elves probably do have a bit more difficulty digesting meat. Fish and shellfish may be a
touch easier, but that's really my own random thinking. Probably means a bit more
"gas" and other associated minor problems that most Americans associate with
meals such as chili.

The majority of it probably is cultural however. Sprung up somewhere, somehow (perhaps as
a result of the minor problems I posit above).

You have to remember that even if it is purely cultural in it's roots, vegetarians today
can have great difficulty eating meat even when they want to.

I've spoken with a number of vegetarians. Some of them planned on doing it only
temporarily. But after six months of eating no meat at all, when they had that big giant
steak in front of them, it turned their stomach. Six months ago, they would have eaten it
with relish. But in six months, their minds and bodies had adjusted. With enough
willpower and patience, they could have a "normal" diet again, but who wants to
eat anything that turns their stomach?

Bottomline then is that all it would take would be for an entire generation being
vegetarian for a few months or more and it suddenly becomes rather difficult for them to
go back. And if your mother is veggie, then what are the chances she is going to give
you, as a child, meat? Pretty slim. So the children are raised veggie (or mostly
anyway), and it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

That's the basic model I apply in my own game. Perhaps it started as fashion. Perhaps
elven digestive tracts aren't quite as capable of digesting meat, making them susceptible
to "gas" and other associated difficulties. But regardless, the large majority
of elves are now vegetarian.

>Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? Debates
>on my sanity?

I don't think your insanity has ever been in question...

Later,

Erik J.
Message no. 9
From: Justin Fang justinf@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:02:53 -0800 (PST)
Mach wrote:
>So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
>(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
>really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
>necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?

My guess would be that elves commonly have a food allergy to meat, so some
of them may just have a mild reaction to the stuff and others may go into
anaphylactic shock. And/or, they may have difficulties digesting meat,
similar to lactose intolerance (which is common in certain populations).
Probably some cultural reinfocement, too.

I wouldn't say all elves have it, though, because then you can have fun with
chracters who go against the stereotypes: "Gimmie a chili dog with fried
onions, saurkraut, pickles, mustard, and ketchup. Yeah, I'm an elf. What,
you gotta problem with that?"

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 10
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:49:37 -0800 (PST)
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, the Dark Stranger wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:12 -0800 (PST) Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> wrote:

> SR2 does state it outright, but that's dropped in SR3. I think
> that's because of the various biological items you mentioned in your
> post. Have elves really "awakened" to become vegetarians? That
> might be pushing the pseudo-scientific background that SR builds
> much of it's world upon.

Somehow being granted the ability to see into the Infra-red, gaining
large bony deposits on the flesh, or having radically different
procreative and aging tendencies seem to me a bit more drastic than a
little intestinal trouble. I.e. it would seem to me, that if these
other changes could have developed and be hidden in the meta-genome,
then if the elven race evolved over the eons to be herbivorous, it could
be hidden in the meta-genome as well.

> Elves probably do have a bit more difficulty digesting meat. Fish
> and shellfish may be a touch easier, but that's really my own random
> thinking. Probably means a bit more "gas" and other associated
> minor problems that most Americans associate with meals such as
> chili.

Heh...actually probably the opposite.

Fish and shellfish, being further away from mammals genetically, and
therefore more dissimilar in their protein composition, especially
shellfish and mollusks, should logically be _harder_ to digest, unless
the somewhere along the line were a species that predominately ate such
things, and hence adapted to that sort of diet (like sea-otters).
(E.g. People die from anaphylactic shock eating shellfish. I've never
heard of that happening with beef.)

On the other hand, food that typically makes peoply "gassy" are those
which contain lots of fiber, a.k.a. cellulose. An herbivore who can't
handle cellulose, the thing which gives plants their cellular strength
and is the primary component of wood is going to be in a world of
trouble.

What you may be thinking of is stuff that is "greasy" or high in animal
fat that tends to give some people the runs. That, I would agree, would
be very hard on an herbivore's stomach.

> The majority of it probably is cultural however. Sprung up
> somewhere, somehow (perhaps as a result of the minor problems I
> posit above).
>
> You have to remember that even if it is purely cultural in it's
> roots, vegetarians today can have great difficulty eating meat even
> when they want to.

Well, there are some people who "don't like the taste." And are
vegetarian for more than moral/cultural reasons. Some people, in fact,
have metabolic problems with meat protein and are vegetarian by
necessity, which is why I brought all that up.

> I've spoken with a number of vegetarians. Some of them planned on
> doing it only temporarily. But after six months of eating no meat
> at all, when they had that big giant steak in front of them, it
> turned their stomach.

Is that before, or after they had eaten some of it? Quite possibly,
their stomachs had adjusted to a lack of large doses of protein and
therefore was producing less acid and protein-digesting enzymes, which
would make eating steak rather difficult and could give them a stomach
ache. (Note from Dr. Science in case you have forgotten it from biology
class: This is why your stomach is acidic. Protein-digesting enzymes
[pepsin] in your stomach only work in a highly acidic environment.
When the food passes into the intestine, it is neutralized so that,
well, so that you don't accidently digest yourself, which sounds like a
rather painful way to go. Hmmm....)

> Bottomline then is that all it would take would be for an entire
> generation being vegetarian for a few months or more and it suddenly
> becomes rather difficult for them to go back. And if your mother is
> veggie, then what are the chances she is going to give you, as a
> child, meat? Pretty slim. So the children are raised veggie (or
> mostly anyway), and it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

True...but someone who has lived a vegitarian existance their entire
life still has to consume enough protein in their diet to be healthy,
and so still has all the "apparatus" in place to deal with an omnivorous
diet. And, given time to acclimate (and a desire to do so) I'm willing
to bet good money they could down a Porterhouse with the best of them.
So if elves were only culturally vegitarian, then someone who wanted to
pass themselves off as human could easily work up to an omnivorous diet
in some reasonable amount of time. Someone who is biologically adapted
to an herbivorous diet, no matter the will, or time to accimate, could
never do the same. That, I think is part of the problem and my
conscern.

> That's the basic model I apply in my own game. Perhaps it started
> as fashion. Perhaps elven digestive tracts aren't quite as capable
> of digesting meat, making them susceptible to "gas" and other
> associated difficulties. But regardless, the large majority of
> elves are now vegetarian.

If it is biological though, it wouldn't just be a large majority, it
would be all of them, with a few "renegades" barely able to force
themselves to stomach a bit of meat in their diet in order to not be
seen as a "daisy eater."

To those familiar with WhiteWolf's Vampire: The Masquerade, I am
reminded of a skill that vampire characters can develop that helps them
pass themselves off as human. It includes such talents as being able to
hold down human food and drink for prolonged periods of time without
having to throw up because their digestive tract has atrophied to the
point of only accepting blood.

> I don't think your insanity has ever been in question...

That's comforting...I think.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 11
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:06:28 -0800 (PST)
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Justin Fang wrote:

> Mach wrote:
> >So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
> >(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
> >really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
> >necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?
>
> My guess would be that elves commonly have a food allergy to meat, so some
> of them may just have a mild reaction to the stuff and others may go into
> anaphylactic shock. And/or, they may have difficulties digesting meat,
> similar to lactose intolerance (which is common in certain populations).
> Probably some cultural reinfocement, too.
>
> I wouldn't say all elves have it, though, because then you can have fun with
> chracters who go against the stereotypes: "Gimmie a chili dog with fried
> onions, saurkraut, pickles, mustard, and ketchup. Yeah, I'm an elf. What,
> you gotta problem with that?"

Hmmm.... Well, there's a difference between a stereotype and an actual
biological difference. It isn't as though an elf can "choose" to not
have good night vision or have pointy ears, in as much as you aren't
going to find a Dwarf who is 6'3" because they want to go against the
stereotype. On the other hand, they can get cyber-eyes without it or
get their ears bobbed. Similarly, I suppose just like the supplements
that lactose-intollerant people take (namely encapsulated lactase that
breaks lactose into easier to digest sugars), an elf could take some
pills (pepsin, etc.) that would help them to digest meat, just because
they want to go against the grain or develop a taste for it. I suppose
less likely, mutations can exist or the occasional elf that somehow
managed their human parent's "un-evolved" digestive tract. But they'd
be seen as very unusual, or to paraphrase: "In a world of the
lactose-intollerant, the milk-drinker is stoned." =P

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 12
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:09:39 +0000
In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903251632480.27917-100000@****.ugcs.caltech.e
du>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>
>Consider this a vain attempt to see if people are still on PlotD
>(including myself).

Me me me! :)

>Here's #1:
>So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
>(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
>really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
>necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?

Never heard of such. Easy sure isn't vegetarian: while she might not get
much real meat, she enjoys what she can get. Sasha sure as hell isn't,
he used to be Russian Army; and, let's face it, vegetarianism is a
luxury of civilised nations so awash with nutritious food they can say
"no, not going to eat animal protein".

>In the first case, if elves are vegetarian by choice, then it isn't
>"quite" so big a deal, but it could definitely lead to some social
>consequences, even if there is no deception meant. I.e. Mr. Johnson is
>a devoutly vegan elf and your Sammie goes and orders a big steak to put
>on his tab, they may become less friendly in very short order. (Much
>worse than say, going into an Irish pub and ordering a Bud Lite.)

Or, noticing that Iman Khaled Aziz is hungry, ordering up a plate of
fried pork chops for him :)

>On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
>by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
>archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
>has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
>bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
>This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
>elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
>they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
>difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
>enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
>meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
>and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)

How would this happen so hard so fast? I mean, why are elves suddenly
unable to digest animal protein? (steak? eggs? cheese? can they drink
milk?) Why _animal_ protein, while presumably elves can still chow down
on tofu and nut cutlets?

Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
physical restriction.


>On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
>sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't,

Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...

>In addition,
>it would be really nice to be able to digest cellulose which humans
>can't but many herbivores can. That way you could get away with eating
>a lot less to get the same amount of energy. But this also means, for
>someone trying to pass themselves off as elven, something as subtle as
>diet could tip people off, if they weren't careful.

Hey, I came up with some gastric nanites to do just that. The problem
is, sure, you can gnaw C-12 explosive and get energy from it, but sugar
still contains more calories and is cheaper and easier to come by... and
you need to eat a _lot_ of grass to get enough energy to keep moving all
day. There's a reason most grazers spend all day grazing...

>Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? Debates
>on my sanity?

I'm personally inclined to see "vegetarian Elves" as being a cultural
preference in the Tirs and a false stereotype elsewhere. I've never seen
it as having any physical basis, such as an allergy to actual meat, and
don't intend to do so here unless there's a strong list consensus to the
contrary.
Message no. 13
From: Mark L. Neidengard mneideng@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:54:34 -0800 (PST)
According to Paul J. Adam:
>In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903251632480.27917-100000@****.ugcs.caltech.e
>du>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>>
>>Consider this a vain attempt to see if people are still on PlotD
>>(including myself).
>
>Me me me! :)

Hi hi. ^_^

>>Here's #1:
>>So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
>>(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
>>really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
>>necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?
>Never heard of such. Easy sure isn't vegetarian: while she might not get
>much real meat, she enjoys what she can get. Sasha sure as hell isn't,
>he used to be Russian Army; and, let's face it, vegetarianism is a
>luxury of civilised nations so awash with nutritious food they can say
>"no, not going to eat animal protein".

While we're at it, _where_ in SR2 is this stated?

>>On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
>>by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
>>archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
>>has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
>>bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?

This sounds like foolishness for the sake of the "elven mystique".

>>This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
>>elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
>>they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
>>difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
>>enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
>>meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
>>and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)
>How would this happen so hard so fast? I mean, why are elves suddenly
>unable to digest animal protein? (steak? eggs? cheese? can they drink
>milk?) Why _animal_ protein, while presumably elves can still chow down
>on tofu and nut cutlets?

Quite.

>Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
>vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
>physical restriction.

Agreement. That stipulation would be a nontrivial one in terms of game
mechanics, upsetting the balance of the character race.

>>On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
>>sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't,
>Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...

Well, the Awakened races are supposed to be sort of special, but I don't see
the elves as being that special.

>I'm personally inclined to see "vegetarian Elves" as being a cultural
>preference in the Tirs and a false stereotype elsewhere. I've never seen
>it as having any physical basis, such as an allergy to actual meat, and
>don't intend to do so here unless there's a strong list consensus to the
>contrary.

I agree w/ Paul here.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 14
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:10:35 -0800 (PST)
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> >Here's #1:
> >So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
> >(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
> >really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
> >necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?
>
> Never heard of such. Easy sure isn't vegetarian: while she might not get
> much real meat, she enjoys what she can get. Sasha sure as hell isn't,
> he used to be Russian Army; and, let's face it, vegetarianism is a
> luxury of civilised nations so awash with nutritious food they can say
> "no, not going to eat animal protein".

Heh...actually the poorer nations, one would think, would be more likely
to feed the populace on much cheaper to produce mycoprotein. A big vat,
a little nutrients, and presto, cheap meat. No need for wasting the
land and resources to raise a stupid animal for several years just so
you can kill it. Sure it may taste like hell without a lot of
processing, but you can live on it.

> >On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
> >by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
> >archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
> >has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
> >bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
> >This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
> >elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
> >they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
> >difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
> >enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
> >meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
> >and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)
>
> How would this happen so hard so fast? I mean, why are elves suddenly
> unable to digest animal protein? (steak? eggs? cheese? can they drink
> milk?) Why _animal_ protein, while presumably elves can still chow down
> on tofu and nut cutlets?

Hmmm... Well perhaps a decreased ability to digest animal protein, if,
as I suggested, they had the ability to synthesize all necessary
proteins, and therefore didn't need to consume as much tofu or nut
cutlets as a human vegitarian would. And then even too much tofu could
become a problem. Unless, as I already suggested, they took dietary
supplements to help them digest it.

> Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
> vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
> physical restriction.

Why then was it treated as such an absolute, other than the typical
answer (ah, it's just FASA being lame again)? Why is it that one of the
cannonical nicknames for elves is "Daisy Eaters"? If it's just cultural
among the Tirs it probably wouldn't be that wide-spread of a stereotype,
would it? That's what got me curious enough about it to even bother to
bring it up here, else I would have shrugged and gone about my business.
I don't remember any other dietary restrictions for other races. (Or
are Orks or Trolls carnivorous? That would lead to a different, but
similar set of complications to the ones I've been pondering.)

> >On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
> >sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't,
>
> Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...

As I said earlier, so is infra-vision, dermal calcification, and
extended longevity. And, if we are to believe cannon, these "leaps"
were not made in less than a century, but over the eons of the previous
"Worlds" where the races differentiated themselves.

> Hey, I came up with some gastric nanites to do just that. The problem
> is, sure, you can gnaw C-12 explosive and get energy from it, but sugar
> still contains more calories and is cheaper and easier to come by... and
> you need to eat a _lot_ of grass to get enough energy to keep moving all
> day. There's a reason most grazers spend all day grazing...

? Ounce per ounce, C-12 has a lot more energy from sugar. So does
celulose if I remember correctly. ("Burn" C-12 and you blow up a
building, burn cellulose and you get a roaring fire, put a match to a
marshmellow and it does light, and you get a little carmelized carbon,
but it doesn't really burn well) It is just that it takes a lot more
energy and complicated enzymes to break those substances down into a
form that the body can actually use, namely glucose. It is the
inefficiency of the digestion and the energy that it takes to break it
down and resynthesize it into glucose which is the primary reason why
eating grass doesn't result in a lot of food-value energy.

> >Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? Debates
> >on my sanity?
>
> I'm personally inclined to see "vegetarian Elves" as being a cultural
> preference in the Tirs and a false stereotype elsewhere. I've never seen
> it as having any physical basis, such as an allergy to actual meat, and
> don't intend to do so here unless there's a strong list consensus to the
> contrary.

I was wanting to feel the list out for that very same reason. It isn't
something that would probably come up in your typical RPG. GM: "Well,
it's getting late. I figure your characters are getting hungry about
now." Players: "Uh. Well, I guess we go get something to eat then."
End of discussion. (Although there was that one time we had that John
Woo-esque shoot out at the local noodle-place.) However, for me it's
something that would add flavor to a plotline where a character is so
paranoid they'd actually worry about such things. If the list consensus
is: "Its cultural, and now you're getting paranoid," then I'll shut up.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 15
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:47:45 -0800 (PST)
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:

> While we're at it, _where_ in SR2 is this stated?

In the descriptions of the various races: Dwarf, Human, Elf, Orc,
Troll. I don't remember the page, but it's near the beginning. The
same place where they talk about how many teeth they have.

> >>On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
> >>by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
> >>archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
> >>has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
> >>bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
>
> This sounds like foolishness for the sake of the "elven mystique".

Foolishness on the part of the character? Well, would you do something
for "mystique" if it instead of making you look cool, made you the
object of jokes and derision? No.

Foolishness on the part of FASA? No comment.

> >>This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
> >>elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
> >>they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
> >>difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
> >>enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
> >>meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
> >>and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)
> >How would this happen so hard so fast? I mean, why are elves suddenly
> >unable to digest animal protein? (steak? eggs? cheese? can they drink
> >milk?) Why _animal_ protein, while presumably elves can still chow down
> >on tofu and nut cutlets?

> Quite.

As I said, if they had a problem with dealing with large (normal human)
amounts of dietary protein, then they _would_ have problems chowing down
on normal human vegetarian amounts of nut burgers and tofu.

> >Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
> >vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
> >physical restriction.
>
> Agreement. That stipulation would be a nontrivial one in terms of game
> mechanics, upsetting the balance of the character race.

A restricted diet upsetting the game balance of the character races???

It's actually a _penalty_ if you ask me. The game-mechanics were
already glossed over by the declaration that elves were vegetarians and
derisively called "Daisy Eaters." The didn't exactly put in a section
to deal with the lactose intollerant either. (There's a limit to which
any RPG can give a damn about micromanagement before they end up having
"The Complete Guide to Orcish Bards" like a certain other three letter
RPG system that shall otherwise remain nameless.)

> >>On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
> >>sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't,

Hmmm...maybe I should put in a little more explanation here: of the 100
amino acids out there 20 are commonly used in protein synthesis and are
found in all living things. The human body only lacks the ability to
synthesize eight of them (two more are produced in low enough quantity
to be a dietary requirement). Most herbivores (or at least the bacteria
in their guts) can synthesize all of them, because their vegitarian diet
is lacking in certain amino acids more commonly found in animals. Many
carnivores can't syntesize all of them, but they don't need to since
they consume animal flesh which contains all they need and in roughly
the right quantities. That way their bodies don't have to waste the
energy to synthesize the complex molecules.

> >Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...
>
> Well, the Awakened races are supposed to be sort of special, but I don't see
> the elves as being that special.

Gee... Never aging. (Theoretically immortal, but we won't go into that
one.) Can see in near darkness. Enigmatically charismatic to all
races. Biologically vegitarian. *WOAH* there boy! Now you've just
gone too damn far!

You see my point? I'm not sure why you approach this as the straw that
broke the camel's back. Now, if the conscensus is that it is cultural,
and that's what most everybody uses as house rules, then I'm cool with
that. I just thought it somewhat strange that some took the idea to be
perposterous, in light of the other perposterous things that have
already been stipulated to and accepted as canon. That elves are
"supposed" to be vegitarian is a given, whether this is for cultural or
biological reasons is a question that doesn't seem to have been
expressly settled by FASA. We can accept one or the other as "true" but
a priori, neither are impossible.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 16
From: the Dark Stranger darkstranger@*******.net
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:58:03 -0500
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:49:37 -0800 (PST) Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> wrote:

>Heh...actually probably the opposite.
>
>Fish and shellfish, being further away from mammals genetically, and
>therefore more dissimilar in their protein composition, especially
>shellfish and mollusks, should logically be _harder_ to digest, unless
>the somewhere along the line were a species that predominately ate such
>things, and hence adapted to that sort of diet (like sea-otters).
>(E.g. People die from anaphylactic shock eating shellfish. I've never
>heard of that happening with beef.)

Okay Mr. Science...<smirk> I was thinking more in line with some of the cultural
variations of vegetarianism. Some variants allow chicken and fish. Some allow fish.
Some don't allow any animal/fish protein (the vegans) but they are the least common.

It's my understanding that it's nothing in the protein make-up of shellfish that people
are allergic to, it's something else (which is escaping me at the moment).

>
>On the other hand, food that typically makes peoply "gassy" are those
>which contain lots of fiber, a.k.a. cellulose. An herbivore who can't
>handle cellulose, the thing which gives plants their cellular strength
>and is the primary component of wood is going to be in a world of
>trouble.
>
>What you may be thinking of is stuff that is "greasy" or high in animal
>fat that tends to give some people the runs. That, I would agree, would
>be very hard on an herbivore's stomach.

True. However, high-doses of protein can cause various forms of gastric distress and
distention. I know from personal experience, when I go on a protein kick and consume
several protein shakes a day, in addition to a normal 3 square meals, I have a bit more
problems of that sort. It's relatively common amongst bodybuilders, weightlifters and
wannabes (I think we all know where I fit in, so shush!). The body can have a hard time
digesting 150grams or more of protein in a day and it can cause gastric
troubles..."runs," "feeling gassy & bloated" and excess gas are
fairly common side-affects.

So if elves have a harder digesting protein, and animal protein in particular, I'd imagine
the affects would be closer to the affects of excess protein than anything else.

>Well, there are some people who "don't like the taste." And are
>vegetarian for more than moral/cultural reasons. Some people, in fact,
>have metabolic problems with meat protein and are vegetarian by
>necessity, which is why I brought all that up.

Very true. I just heard of the new fad diet that is supposedly based upon blood types.
Apparently, a certain blood type almost demands a vegetarian diet for optimal health. I
suppose there's probably some kernel of truth behind it all, but the diet itself is
probably hogwash.

>> I've spoken with a number of vegetarians. Some of them planned on
>> doing it only temporarily. But after six months of eating no meat
>> at all, when they had that big giant steak in front of them, it
>> turned their stomach.
>
>Is that before, or after they had eaten some of it?

Before. One guy in particular planned to eat a giant steak after going veggie for six
months and simply couldn't do it. He used to LOVE meat, but did it for health and a bet.
He won the bet, but sit a nice steaming slab of beef in front of him and he's likely to
puke.

>Quite possibly,
>their stomachs had adjusted to a lack of large doses of protein and
>therefore was producing less acid and protein-digesting enzymes, which
>would make eating steak rather difficult and could give them a stomach
>ache.

Very strong possibility. Both the mind and body had adjusted to the diet.
>True...but someone who has lived a vegitarian existance their entire
>life still has to consume enough protein in their diet to be healthy,
>and so still has all the "apparatus" in place to deal with an omnivorous
>diet.

Excluding any psychological elements. Odors of certain foods make me queasy. Don't need
to see or taste them to be revolted.

>And, given time to acclimate (and a desire to do so) I'm willing
>to bet good money they could down a Porterhouse with the best of them.

Given time and will, yes. But it would be akin to trying to overcome a phobia, such as
spiders or heights. It takes work...and not many folks are likely to be willing to put
that work in.

>If it is biological though, it wouldn't just be a large majority, it
>would be all of them, with a few "renegades" barely able to force
>themselves to stomach a bit of meat in their diet in order to not be
>seen as a "daisy eater."

I think the biology doesn't demand strict vegetarianism. If I'm an elf and I'm willing to
put up with gas and perhaps the runs, but I love steak, it's not a problem. If I'm not
willing to put up with those essentially minor inconveniences, then I guess I'm a veggie.

Again, I do think there are some biological reasons behind it all. I don't think it's
100% cultural. But it probably is for the most part, at least in 2060/61, given how long
elves have been around and have been eating mostly veggie diets.

I think, for example, a chef salad would probably be okay for an elf. Minimal problems.
But a giant slab of roast beef, that might be asking for it...

Erik J.
Message no. 17
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:57:48 -0700 (MST)
I cut it all - you all got the other messages


I seem to remember in SR1 (yes the OLD OLD system) that it mentioned
Elves were Vegetarian. The crux of the matter is though that Vegetarian
is a pyschological choice (mental) while being a Herbivore (plant eater)
is a physciological choice (physical).


In the Paranormal Guide to Animals (I think - its been about 7 years since
I saw the reference) it mentions that the writer of the descriptions is a
bit biased (Actually I think one person calls him a quack with an agenda)
and that you can trust all of him animal descriptions some as much as you
can trust his scientific descriptions of the Homo Sapiens sub-species.


PS. - Dandelion Eaters


Nightfox
Message no. 18
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:36:26 +0000
In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903261010420.21263-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
edu>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>Gee... Never aging. (Theoretically immortal, but we won't go into that
>one.)

Again, Sasha, Mani and Easy would be _delighted_ to have that be true:
all anticipate no more than their appointed three score years and ten,
that assuming nobody kills them first. Okay, so all three can probably
afford to Leonise now... still, once life settles down I've got some
low-rent characters arriving :)

>Can see in near darkness.

So can my cat :)

>Enigmatically charismatic to all
>races.

So is my cat :)

>Biologically vegitarian. *WOAH* there boy! Now you've just
>gone too damn far!

What species _can't_ metabolise animal protein? That's unusual. Many
never normally expected to: some do because they get fed it. I heard it
said that cheap chipboard was made from sawdust and blood glue, and also
that waste chipboard was broken up and used as cattle feed.

>You see my point? I'm not sure why you approach this as the straw that
>broke the camel's back.

Because it's unusual?

>Now, if the conscensus is that it is cultural,
>and that's what most everybody uses as house rules, then I'm cool with
>that.

That's the version I've used throughout. Mani avoids most pork products
other than bacon and pork scratchings (both sterilised by huge amounts
of additives not known to Mohammed - Mani may be religious but he's a
realist) but has always been carnivorous. Sasha ate whatever the Russian
Army put in his mess tin. Easy couldn't afford to be choosy. Such is my
position on the list so far, anyway, and I don't think any of the
characters are committed to that by past posts. If we gotta change, I
can handle it, I'll just mutter and grumble :)

> I just thought it somewhat strange that some took the idea to be
>perposterous, in light of the other perposterous things that have
>already been stipulated to and accepted as canon. That elves are
>"supposed" to be vegitarian is a given, whether this is for cultural or
>biological reasons is a question that doesn't seem to have been
>expressly settled by FASA. We can accept one or the other as "true" but
>a priori, neither are impossible.

Would Elves themselves know? Some not only eat meat but claim to like
it. Of course, given what meat would cost in 2060 Seattle, maybe they're
just indulging in conspicuous consumption, forcing the foul stuff down
until they can slip away and regurgitate it.

Others might claim that even the smell of cooked meat makes their
stomach turn. True, false, or the result of upbringing? After all, if
you've eaten meat from a very early age it's a delicacy (I'm an
unashamed carnivore) but I can easily see how some would find it
repulsive: they would have trouble eating it and holding it down, even
if their alimentary tract could extract much nutrition from it.
Message no. 19
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 03:00:44 +0000
In message <199903262158.QAA15806@****.chek.com>, the Dark Stranger
<darkstranger@*******.net> writes
>Before. One guy in particular planned to eat a giant steak after going veggie
>for six months and simply couldn't do it. He used to LOVE meat, but did it for
>health and a bet. He won the bet, but sit a nice steaming slab of beef in front
>of him and he's likely to puke.

I can sort of believe that. Hazel and I didn't go vegetarian, but we did
decide to cut back on the meat-plus-starch (meat and potatoes of various
sorts, curry and rice, fish and chips, whatever) and get more and more
varied vegetables into our diet. We still really enjoy meat, but we eat
less of it and we're probably fussier as to its quality.

I personally have never been less than enticed by a slab of good lean
rare beef: but I've been revolted by a bad steak (greasy, gristly,
gruesome) and can understand completely with anyone who doesn't want to
eat meat even though I do :)

Moral - anyone visiting, warn me about dietary preferences _before_ I
plan the menu :)

>Excluding any psychological elements. Odors of certain foods make me queasy.
>Don't need to see or taste them to be revolted.

Which ones, out of interest? I don't seem to suffer from this: the only
smell that makes me feel ill is juniper berries. Odd, because I've
neither knowingly consumed them, nor drunk gin at all (let alone to
excess).

>Given time and will, yes. But it would be akin to trying to overcome a phobia,
>such as spiders or heights. It takes work...and not many folks are likely to be
>willing to put that work in.

And, given how expensive 'real meat' would be, who would want to? I
don't see this as being an Elven philosophy, I'd expect a lot of Barrens
and blue-collar-district residents would be nauseated by the sight and
smell of a big rare porterhouse steak.


For instance, I've briefly tried caviar and I consider it tastes like a
pallid, cold, wet version of cod roe. (Pressed cod roe, sliced and
shallow-fried in butter flavoured with a little garlic and pepper, is a
cheap and delicious dinner: caviar, on my limited acquaintance so far,
has all its vices and none of its virtues)

I was told that caviar was 'an acquired taste' - fine, those with more
disposable income and less to spend it on than I could 'acquire a taste'
for a vaguely fish-flavoured gelid mass of fish eggs. I preferred the
Cajun-spiced tiger prawns on the next plate of tbe buffet and ate rather
too many of them instead :)

I could see that many people seemed to love the stuff, and more power to
them. I didn't :)

>I think the biology doesn't demand strict vegetarianism. If I'm an elf and I'm
>willing to put up with gas and perhaps the runs, but I love steak, it's not a
>problem. If I'm not willing to put up with those essentially minor
>inconveniences, then I guess I'm a veggie.

And, again, if I like meat and eat it (and can afford to do so) then my
digestion is used to the idea. But if - like most of 2060 Seattle,
apparently - even 'real vegetables' are pricey luxury, "real meat" will
be a rare item.

And perhaps some digestive discomfort is as much part of the carnivore
"experience" as the "ring-stinger" effect of a potent curry is to some
Britons, as various lively chemical flavours pass through the alimentary
canal undigested... :)

(No, I don't speak from personal experience, but I've seen it happen to
friends...)
Message no. 20
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:21:07 +0000
In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903260937140.21263-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
edu>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> Never heard of such. Easy sure isn't vegetarian: while she might not get
>> much real meat, she enjoys what she can get. Sasha sure as hell isn't,
>> he used to be Russian Army; and, let's face it, vegetarianism is a
>> luxury of civilised nations so awash with nutritious food they can say
>> "no, not going to eat animal protein".
>
>Heh...actually the poorer nations, one would think, would be more likely
>to feed the populace on much cheaper to produce mycoprotein. A big vat,
>a little nutrients, and presto, cheap meat.

Plus you need to filter out trace elements, eliminate contaminants, make
sure no less-than-friendly species colonise this warm vat of
nutrients... if it was so cheap and easy to grow food in vats, why are
so many Africans dying of hunger?

Again... this sort of system demands infrastructure. Like, clean water,
and reliable electric power, and available skilled technicians - all
desperately scarce resources, which are rare in some corners of North
America by 2060 let alone the less-developed nations.

Remember - look at the Barrens and see how far the US fell between 'now'
and 'then'. Now imagine most of Africa, or Russia, or China...

>No need for wasting the
>land and resources to raise a stupid animal for several years just so
>you can kill it.

Again - unless you _have_ the vats, the cultures, the nutrient, clean
water and reliable electricity, you can't even start on the mycoprotein
route.

Meanwhile, sheep will graze on any available grass, and furnish wool and
even milk while alive and meat when butchered: while they will also make
more sheep over time, a trick mycoprotein vats have never learned :)
>
>> Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
>> vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
>> physical restriction.
>
>Why then was it treated as such an absolute, other than the typical
>answer (ah, it's just FASA being lame again)?

As Mark N. said, Elves are vegetarian (expressing choice) not herbivore.

>Why is it that one of the
>cannonical nicknames for elves is "Daisy Eaters"?

Thought it was 'dandelion eaters'?

>If it's just cultural
>among the Tirs it probably wouldn't be that wide-spread of a stereotype,
>would it?

Depends. The Tirs are not percieved as friendly or popular, in most FASA
material: and what is their defining characteristic? If you're not an
Elf, don't bother.

So, they would get presented as "the archetypal Elven ideal" since they
are primarily Elven homelands: even if many Elves despise them and
everything they stand for.

>> Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...
>
>As I said earlier, so is infra-vision, dermal calcification, and
>extended longevity. And, if we are to believe cannon, these "leaps"
>were not made in less than a century, but over the eons of the previous
>"Worlds" where the races differentiated themselves.

Not sure about the 'extended longevity' part - never heard that _all_
elves live Really Really Long Times.

As for low-light or thermal vision, well, hey, my cat does one and pit
vipers manage another, both adaptations are relatively minor (either a
crystalline layer at the retina, or a small auxiliary sense organ)
compared to rewiring a human digestive tract to both synthesise protein
and be unreceptive to provided protein.

After all, remember one of the causes of the BSE outbreak... feeding
dead cows to live cows to keep their protein intake high. The cows coped
fine (except for a nasty prion)

>> Hey, I came up with some gastric nanites to do just that. The problem
>> is, sure, you can gnaw C-12 explosive and get energy from it, but sugar
>> still contains more calories and is cheaper and easier to come by... and
>> you need to eat a _lot_ of grass to get enough energy to keep moving all
>> day. There's a reason most grazers spend all day grazing...
>
>? Ounce per ounce, C-12 has a lot more energy from sugar.

Uh.... no. RDX contains ~4000kJ/kg, IIRC, about the same as pure
glucose, but to make it into a plastic explosive you need to mix it with
a plasticiser and wax which reduce its net energy content. And, RDX is
self-contained, while sugar needs an oxidising agent.

>So does
>celulose if I remember correctly.

Cellulose is just cross-linked sugar.

>("Burn" C-12 and you blow up a
>building, burn cellulose and you get a roaring fire,

Throw a block of secondary explosive (C-4, TNT, RDX, whatever) in a fire
and it burns. It needs a lot of persuasion to detonate (the definition
of 'secondary explosive'). The point is, it _can_ detonate, liberating
energy far faster than most combustibles, and without outside constraint
such as presene of oxidiser.

>> I'm personally inclined to see "vegetarian Elves" as being a cultural
>> preference in the Tirs and a false stereotype elsewhere. I've never seen
>> it as having any physical basis, such as an allergy to actual meat, and
>> don't intend to do so here unless there's a strong list consensus to the
>> contrary.
>
>I was wanting to feel the list out for that very same reason. It isn't
>something that would probably come up in your typical RPG. GM: "Well,
>it's getting late. I figure your characters are getting hungry about
>now." Players: "Uh. Well, I guess we go get something to eat then."
>End of discussion. (Although there was that one time we had that John
>Woo-esque shoot out at the local noodle-place.) However, for me it's
>something that would add flavor to a plotline where a character is so
>paranoid they'd actually worry about such things. If the list consensus
>is: "Its cultural, and now you're getting paranoid," then I'll shut up.

Again, Mark N. put his finger on it for me when he pointed out that
Elves are described as 'vegetarian' not 'herbivore'.

One is choice (even if not personal but cultural - look at the Jain
Indians, who survive perfectly well on a diet so vegetarian they won't
even eat beetroot because it appears to bleed: but they _could_
metabolise meat, they merely refuse to eat it) , the other is a physical
limitation (and even then not a binding limitation, depending who makes
your cattle cake)
Message no. 21
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:53:03 +0000
In message <Pine.SOL.3.95.990326153502.20222B-100000@****.ucc.nau.edu>,
Daniel Waisley <Dan.Waisley@***.edu> writes
>PS. - Dandelion Eaters
>
>Nightfox

Long time no see, Dan :)
Message no. 22
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:31:11 -0800 (PST)
On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903261010420.21263-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
> edu>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
> >Gee... Never aging. (Theoretically immortal, but we won't go into that
> >one.)
>
> Again, Sasha, Mani and Easy would be _delighted_ to have that be true:
> all anticipate no more than their appointed three score years and ten,
> that assuming nobody kills them first. Okay, so all three can probably
> afford to Leonise now... still, once life settles down I've got some
> low-rent characters arriving :)

Well, at least according to FASA, after a certain age (maturity) all
elves stop aging. That doesn't mean they can't get shot, run over,
thrown off a building, get heart disease, cancer, etc. So that
generally puts an ultimate cap on age, especially the cancer part and
other genetic damage and hardening of the arteries or other irreperable
damage to internal organs. NB: Death by "old age" (the body getting so
old that it just malfunctions to death) isn't as common as one might
think, and many times that phrase is simply used as a euphamism for
something else, like cancer or organ failure due to some other cause
that an old person couldn't fight off.

So theoretically, elves can live longer, but they can also die just as
easily of all the other things that people die of. At which point
Leonization is actually a viable option. Elves just might come out of
it looking better than your average human going in, because the process
doesn't have to reset celular clocks as well, it just has to clean out
the damage that the years have left on the body.

The "immortal" comment comes from the *gasp/shudder* IE's whose ability
to be around since the 4th or previous world has never been adequately
explained to me. And someone said to me once that they can even somehow
survive beyond death and be reborn with their memories or something.
Uh...yeah, like sure, whatever dude.

> What species _can't_ metabolise animal protein? That's unusual.

Well, I didn't really mean they _couldn't_ metabolize animal protein at
all, because that would mean they couldn't metabolize any protein. But
some animals can't have the same percentage of protein in their diet as
we humans do without having trouble. Either a bad tummy ache because
they don't produce enough of the chemicals to allow them to digest so
much of it, or because they can digest it, but in too great quantities,
they can't metabolize them or their bi-products fast enough and get
liver or kidney poisoning.

As for your comment about cows, remember the actual amount of meat
protein they get in their feed isn't anything like the 25% of calories
(+/- wildly depending on what you eat that day) you get from meat
sources like many people eat today.

> >You see my point? I'm not sure why you approach this as the straw that
> >broke the camel's back.
>
> Because it's unusual?

Well, I was just pointing out that it isn't any _more_ unusual than the
rest of the stuff that they've already stipulated. And it would have
some negative side effects, unlike just about everything else with which
the elves have been granted.

> >Now, if the conscensus is that it is cultural,
> >and that's what most everybody uses as house rules, then I'm cool with
> >that.
>
> That's the version I've used throughout.

> Such is my
> position on the list so far, anyway, and I don't think any of the
> characters are committed to that by past posts. If we gotta change, I
> can handle it, I'll just mutter and grumble :)

My main reason for bringing it up was to see if there was any canonical
answer to the question. It seems there isn't or someone would have
mentioned it by now. So, I really don't see a reason why you have to
change your view about any of your characters.

Well, as far as I can see, the way I'm going to handle it is to not make
any definite declaration one way or another, that's for sure. If
anything, in case some muckitymuck at FASA one day decides to rule on
that some day (I'm not going to hold my breath, mind you). I will say
and play it that a vegitarian elf who suddenly decides to be macho and
eat a steak is going to have significant bodily problems with it. As
we've already discussed, even if they were vegitarian by choice, their
body will have adapted enough to spell trouble.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 23
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:09:41 -0800 (PST)
On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> Plus you need to filter out trace elements, eliminate contaminants, make
> sure no less-than-friendly species colonise this warm vat of
> nutrients... if it was so cheap and easy to grow food in vats, why are
> so many Africans dying of hunger?

Because they can't even afford myco? (Or can't afford to import it from
some country who can produce it.) No currency + no resources == SOL In
that case keeping a goat in the back yard becomes a more reasonable
option, I'll agree.

> Again... this sort of system demands infrastructure. Like, clean water,
> and reliable electric power, and available skilled technicians - all
> desperately scarce resources, which are rare in some corners of North
> America by 2060 let alone the less-developed nations.
>
> Remember - look at the Barrens and see how far the US fell between 'now'
> and 'then'. Now imagine most of Africa, or Russia, or China...

True. But in first world nations it would be a much cheaper alternative
than raising livestock.

> >No need for wasting the
> >land and resources to raise a stupid animal for several years just so
> >you can kill it.
>
> Again - unless you _have_ the vats, the cultures, the nutrient, clean
> water and reliable electricity, you can't even start on the mycoprotein
> route.

Granted. I guess I didn't put enough thought into that.

> Meanwhile, sheep will graze on any available grass, and furnish wool and
> even milk while alive and meat when butchered: while they will also make
> more sheep over time, a trick mycoprotein vats have never learned :)

Uh...Paul? Fungi and bacterium don't reproduce? (And at insane rates
at that?) That _is_ news to me. =P

The big news nowadays is Human Insulin. That is because they taught a
bacterium (E.Coli I think) and a yeast (aka fungi) to secrete human
insulin by transgenically giving it the human DNA which codes for its
production. Keep them warm, happy, and fed and they continue to pump
out human insulin, and keep breeding to make more and more bacterium or
yeasties.

> >Why then was it treated as such an absolute, other than the typical
> >answer (ah, it's just FASA being lame again)?
>
> As Mark N. said, Elves are vegetarian (expressing choice) not herbivore.

Er, that was Nightfox, but yeah. Point taken. It is an important
symantic difference, but then I'm a bit nervous in assuming that FASA
actually knows the difference.

> >Why is it that one of the
> >cannonical nicknames for elves is "Daisy Eaters"?
>
> Thought it was 'dandelion eaters'?

See previous comment.

(At least I didn't say Lotus Eaters....)

> Uh.... no. RDX contains ~4000kJ/kg, IIRC, about the same as pure
> glucose, but to make it into a plastic explosive you need to mix it with
> a plasticiser and wax which reduce its net energy content. And, RDX is
> self-contained, while sugar needs an oxidising agent.

Hunh.... You learn something new every day.

(The rest seemed pretty much addressed in the one I just sent.)

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 24
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:51:31 +0000
In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903262331300.26889-100000@***.ugcs.caltech.ed
u>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> Plus you need to filter out trace elements, eliminate contaminants, make
>> sure no less-than-friendly species colonise this warm vat of
>> nutrients... if it was so cheap and easy to grow food in vats, why are
>> so many Africans dying of hunger?
>
>Because they can't even afford myco? (Or can't afford to import it from
>some country who can produce it.) No currency + no resources == SOL In
>that case keeping a goat in the back yard becomes a more reasonable
>option, I'll agree.

My mother keeps chickens (fed on grain and leftovers from the kitchen),
sheep and occasionally a pig.

>> Again... this sort of system demands infrastructure. Like, clean water,
>> and reliable electric power, and available skilled technicians - all
>> desperately scarce resources, which are rare in some corners of North
>> America by 2060 let alone the less-developed nations.
>>
>> Remember - look at the Barrens and see how far the US fell between 'now'
>> and 'then'. Now imagine most of Africa, or Russia, or China...
>
>True. But in first world nations it would be a much cheaper alternative
>than raising livestock.

If you have the infrastructure. If you just have lots of grassland,
though, livestock's a better bet for most people.

>> Meanwhile, sheep will graze on any available grass, and furnish wool and
>> even milk while alive and meat when butchered: while they will also make
>> more sheep over time, a trick mycoprotein vats have never learned :)
>
>Uh...Paul? Fungi and bacterium don't reproduce? (And at insane rates
>at that?) That _is_ news to me. =P

The microorganisms do, the vats to grow them in don't. Two rabbits can
make many many rabbits in a year: two mycoprotein vats won't reproduce
no matter how much you try to coax them to breed...
Message no. 25
From: Mark L. Neidengard mneideng@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:00:48 -0800 (PST)
According to Mach:
>On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:
>
>> While we're at it, _where_ in SR2 is this stated?
>In the descriptions of the various races: Dwarf, Human, Elf, Orc,
>Troll. I don't remember the page, but it's near the beginning. The
>same place where they talk about how many teeth they have.

I did what I should have done in the first place and grabbed my SR2:

"The following information is available courtesy of Studies in Awakened
Biology, by Doctors Eileen Van Buren and Pater Carmine, published in 2048 by
Modern Information Services, Atlanta (CAS). The biases are the authors' own,
in particular, their view of Homo sapiens more as interesting creatures than
sentient beings. The authors also tend to view personal or cultural traits as
genetic predispositions." (SR2, p. 34)

"ELF - ...Habits: Elves are nocturnal beings. Their diet is vegetarian. The
tend to live in small groups, preferably apart from the rest of humanity. The
elf life-expectancy is unverified, with possible life spans of several hundred
years, but metabolic studies are inconclusive. ... Commentary: Elven eyes are
heavily endowed with rod structures. This allows them to see in dim light far
better than sapiens." (SR2, p. 36)

The Racial Modifications Table on SR2 p. 45 lists no intrinsic Allergies
(as defined on SR2 p. 220) for any of the races. All use of Allergies at
character creation time is optional according to SR2 p. 46.

>> >>On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
>> >>by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
>> >>archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
>> >>has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
>> >>bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
>> This sounds like foolishness for the sake of the "elven mystique".
>Foolishness on the part of FASA? No comment.

Heh.

>> >Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
>> >vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
>> >physical restriction.
>> Agreement. That stipulation would be a nontrivial one in terms of game
>> mechanics, upsetting the balance of the character race.
>A restricted diet upsetting the game balance of the character races???

No PC race has a built-in Allergy. If they did, their Racial Modifiers would
have to be changed to compensate as per the "Allergy and Severity Table".
That is what I was talking about.

>It's actually a _penalty_ if you ask me. The game-mechanics were
>already glossed over by the declaration that elves were vegetarians and
>derisively called "Daisy Eaters."

Which I took to be nothing more than a low-IQ insult...remember that in the
biased section they also try to say that elves are both nocturnal and exist
in small groups. We all know that vast amounts of elves lead perfectly
normal lives in the day, and what are the Tirs if not _large_ gatherings of
elves? This was the sort of reason why I had simply discarded that
"vegetarian" bit as nothing more than a peculiarity of _some_ of the elven
enclaves out there, or else delusion on the part of the fictious Drs. van
Buren and Carmine.

>The didn't exactly put in a section
>to deal with the lactose intollerant either. (There's a limit to which
>any RPG can give a damn about micromanagement before they end up having
>"The Complete Guide to Orcish Bards" like a certain other three letter
>RPG system that shall otherwise remain nameless.)

Actually, if a player or GM deems that a character should be lactose
intolerant, the mechanics for giving that character an Allergy are
straightforward.

>> Well, the Awakened races are supposed to be sort of special, but I don't see
>> the elves as being that special.
>Gee... Never aging. (Theoretically immortal, but we won't go into that
>one.) Can see in near darkness. Enigmatically charismatic to all
>races. Biologically vegitarian. *WOAH* there boy! Now you've just
>gone too damn far!

Now now. Where is it that FASA has said _conclusively_ that elves don't age
past a certain point? Elven eyes being extra-endowed in rods is more plausible
to me than for them to suddenly lose the ability to digest meat, but that's
a minor point. The Charisma modifier is a bit odd, I'll admit, but nothing
that really rocks the boat that badly (after all, all these races _are_
essentially human...) What I was really complaining about again is that there
is no game-mechanical justification as of SR2 to say that any of the main
metahuman races as a whole has a built-in Allergy.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 26
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:30:54 -0700 (MST)
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Daniel Waisley wrote:

>>SNIP<<

Stop the presses! Nightfox has not only posted again, but effectivly
admitted to actually keeping up with Plot-D! So much for his excuse that
he didn't have the time anymore.

Back to the original question: I remeber a novel (are they considered
cannon?) that implied an elf could eat meat, and that on an individual
baisis they have no problem watching others eat meat. However I was
always lead to belive it was primarily a cultural thing reinforced with a
slight (or maybe not so slight) problem with digesting meat proteins.

Brion
Message no. 27
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:11:40 -0700 (MST)
> Stop the presses! Nightfox has not only posted again, but effectivly
> admitted to actually keeping up with Plot-D! So much for his excuse that
> he didn't have the time anymore.

Actually - I keep up some with Plot-d but not with Talk (not enough time
for that).

Nightfox
Message no. 28
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:27:34 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:


> No PC race has a built-in Allergy. If they did, their Racial Modifiers would
> have to be changed to compensate as per the "Allergy and Severity Table".
> That is what I was talking about.

Ah. Okay, that makes sense.

> Now now. Where is it that FASA has said _conclusively_ that elves
> don't age past a certain point?

I thought that is in _ShadowTech_ where it addressed the elven Clockwork
Gene (tm). (I forget the page number, since I don't have the book with
me.) In the SR3, where it introduces the races, each race has a line in
their section that describes lifespan, it lists for elves something on
the order of several hundred years (which would probably be in-line with
systemic DNA degredation and resultant cancer and organ failure, since
cellular repair systems are excellent, but not infalible).

Sure, they will die eventually of something, but not from any cellular
clock deciding their time is up and causing system-wide degredation
known as "dying of old age." That also has the interesting implication
that other than the few who "goblinized" into elves at an advanced age,
there really should be no such thing as an old-looking elf (white hair,
liver spots, wrinkles), although I could see weathered features perhaps
on the elder elves (that middle-aged craggy Clint Eastwood look) due to
years of exposure to the elements.

Not that this is much of a consolation to your average ShadowRunning elf
who, by living by the sword, will most likely die by the sword long
before they can celebrate their N-hundredth birthday.

> What I was really complaining about again is that there
> is no game-mechanical justification as of SR2 to say that any of the
> main metahuman races as a whole has a built-in Allergy.

True, and it isn't treated as such. (Although I suppose some GM's might
wish to as a house rule, as a counterpoint to some of the overwhelming
elven benefits.) So, I guess that is a good justification that it
doesn't have a stringent biological basis, and I guess I'm now in the
camp that it shouldn't be treated as such on ShadowTk. I just wish that
FASA had been more explicit in what they meant to say and didn't go and
obfuscate so badly.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 29
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:56:36 -0800
[snippet]

>Sure, they will die eventually of something, but not from any cellular
>clock deciding their time is up and causing system-wide degredation
>known as "dying of old age." That also has the interesting implication
>that other than the few who "goblinized" into elves at an advanced age,

Ermm.... I thought elves didn't goblinize, they were born?

--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 30
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:16:27 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Dvixen wrote:

> [snippet]
>
> >Sure, they will die eventually of something, but not from any cellular
> >clock deciding their time is up and causing system-wide degredation
> >known as "dying of old age." That also has the interesting implication
> >that other than the few who "goblinized" into elves at an advanced age,
>
> Ermm.... I thought elves didn't goblinize, they were born?

Most elves didn't. You may be thinking of the infamous "spike babies"
(elves and dwarves) that were born before the mass goblinizations. But
as far as I know, during "the Change" some people spontaneously
expressed as elves. Also, there has been at least one goblinization of
an adult on the list, so its a little late to turn back now.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 31
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:22:26 -0700 (MST)
> > >known as "dying of old age." That also has the interesting
implication
> > >that other than the few who "goblinized" into elves at an advanced
age,
> >
> > Ermm.... I thought elves didn't goblinize, they were born?
>
> Most elves didn't. You may be thinking of the infamous "spike babies"
> (elves and dwarves) that were born before the mass goblinizations. But
> as far as I know, during "the Change" some people spontaneously
> expressed as elves. Also, there has been at least one goblinization of
> an adult on the list, so its a little late to turn back now.

As far I know there has not been a goblinization into an Elf in any of the
source books (canon) or novels (mostly canon - but w/ artistic license).

Remember - Goblinization is the defined a changing into one of the goblin
races (ork or troll).


As to things happening on the list. Well, remember that this is
Shadowland - the owners take no responsibility for the veracity of any
messages.


Nightfox
Message no. 32
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:06:33 -0800 (PST)
> As far I know there has not been a goblinization into an Elf in any of the
> source books (canon) or novels (mostly canon - but w/ artistic license).
>
> Remember - Goblinization is the defined a changing into one of the goblin
> races (ork or troll).

Uh...well, I was using the word loosely (and in lower-case) to describe
any spontaneous transformation into one of the meta-races after birth.
"The Goblinization" was a world-wide event that happened in the 2020's
where many people spontaneosly transformed, many of them into orks and
trolls (hence the term) and a good many of them not surviving the
transformation.

> As to things happening on the list. Well, remember that this is
> Shadowland - the owners take no responsibility for the veracity of any
> messages.

To a point. In the matter of opinions, and unverifiable claims of "I
did >>whatever<<," it can be left fuzzy. Sure. Someone who claims they
turned into an elf, that was depicted as human before and elven after is
a different matter. Those are the sorts of things, when fishy, are the
reason why PlotD exists.

But hey, it wasn't my character.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 33
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:16:36 -0700 (MST)
> To a point. In the matter of opinions, and unverifiable claims of "I
> did >>whatever<<," it can be left fuzzy. Sure. Someone who claims
they
> turned into an elf, that was depicted as human before and elven after is
> a different matter. Those are the sorts of things, when fishy, are the
> reason why PlotD exists.
>
> But hey, it wasn't my character.

jog my memory - who was it?


Hmm - don't really remember the recent stuff, but i diffinately remember


THE MONICA WARS

Ah - the GOOD OL DAYS!!!!
<smirk>

Ok - so we almost all died and RUFUS (the cool AI) bit the dust.

God - that must have been 1993 or so. Man - it has REALLY been a long
time.



Nightfox
Message no. 34
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:38:48 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Daniel Waisley wrote:

> > To a point. In the matter of opinions, and unverifiable claims of "I
> > did >>whatever<<," it can be left fuzzy. Sure. Someone who
claims they
> > turned into an elf, that was depicted as human before and elven after is
> > a different matter. Those are the sorts of things, when fishy, are the
> > reason why PlotD exists.
> >
> > But hey, it wasn't my character.
>
> jog my memory - who was it?

Uh...I know it happened, don't remember who actually. The character was
female, I do know that much. It was around when I actually got tired of
kibitzing friends posts and joined myself, which would be Summer of '96
or after.

Unfortunately, the old archives are MIA...so I can't check. (Mark I.:
Care to speculate on when the old logs and the finished cast database
will be available from jackpoint.org?) Hmmm...it wasn't Quinn, was it
Paul?

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 35
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:12 -0800 (PST)
Consider this a vain attempt to see if people are still on PlotD
(including myself). But, a couple questions popped into my head these
past few days while working through some future story ideas.

Here's #1:

So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?

Now this may seem like a minor point, but it bears some thought,
especially if you have chacters interacting with the Tir, or say passing
themselves off as elven (or the opposite, an elf trying to pass
themselves off as human).

In the first case, if elves are vegetarian by choice, then it isn't
"quite" so big a deal, but it could definitely lead to some social
consequences, even if there is no deception meant. I.e. Mr. Johnson is
a devoutly vegan elf and your Sammie goes and orders a big steak to put
on his tab, they may become less friendly in very short order. (Much
worse than say, going into an Irish pub and ordering a Bud Lite.)

On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)

On the negative side, eating meat could mean as little as an upset
stomach, etc. for eating something that didn't "agree with them." That
could result in an embarrasing forced, unplanned, and uncomfortable trip
to the "little Shadowrunner's room." Or, there's nothing quite so great
for tipping off the Humanis group you've just infiltrated like throwing
up during their big BBQ get-together. Worse, it could mean a case of
blood poisoning or other unfortunate symptoms if their livers or kidneys
were not capable of adequately dealing with metabolizing protein or the
by-products thereof. An interesting word of warning: Mycoprotein, as
described, may be synthesized from modified bacteria or fungi, and so
"okay" by even vegan standards, but it _is_ basically identical to meat
on the molecular level so Elves might wish to avoid that trip to Stuffer
Shack or at least be very picky about what they order.

On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't, which
is why vegitarians today have to be careful with their diet to include
things like soy products (a.k.a. tofu) and supplements to make up for
what they don't get in a diet that doesn't includes meat. In addition,
it would be really nice to be able to digest cellulose which humans
can't but many herbivores can. That way you could get away with eating
a lot less to get the same amount of energy. But this also means, for
someone trying to pass themselves off as elven, something as subtle as
diet could tip people off, if they weren't careful.

Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? Debates
on my sanity?

--Catch you later

Jeff
Message no. 36
From: Bredget Stroud bstroud@*********.com
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:48:10 -0800
Jeff wrote:
*snip*

>>Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? >>Debates
>>on my sanity?
>>
>> --Catch you later
>>
>> Jeff


Very interesting. Most of that I would never have even thought of. I see it
now... my character is undercover as an elf and gets dusted for eating a ham
sandwich... No offense, but I'm glad you're not my GM... my characters would
have a very short life span... =) (jjk)

Bredget
Message no. 37
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:21:17 -0800 (PST)
Well, I guess this is getting through.

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Bredget Stroud wrote:

> Jeff wrote:
> *snip*
>
> >>Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)?
>>Debates
> >>on my sanity?
> >>
> >> --Catch you later
> >>
> >> Jeff
>
>
> Very interesting. Most of that I would never have even thought of. I see it
> now... my character is undercover as an elf and gets dusted for eating a ham
> sandwich... No offense, but I'm glad you're not my GM... my characters would
> have a very short life span... =) (jjk)

Heh. I suppose that could also happen if they were passing themselves
off as Mossad. =) Well, I would have never thought about it myself
without a character who is of elven decent and spends much of their time
passing themselves off as someone else and for whom paranoia is way of
life. So, what happens when they are trying to pass themselves off as
human and someone serves them some sushi? If you're the only one
throwing up, you can't exactly blame it on bad fish. So then, how do
you get around that sort of problem? Just be careful and stick to the
kappa rolls, I guess.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 38
From: the Dark Stranger darkstranger@*******.net
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:26:17 -0500
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:12 -0800 (PST) Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> wrote:

>So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
>(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
>really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
>necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?

I seem to recall this being a topic back on RN many moons ago, while I still had enough
free time at my previous job to partake of that list.

I don't recall that we ever really came up with a satisfying answer.

SR2 does state it outright, but that's dropped in SR3. I think that's because of the
various biological items you mentioned in your post. Have elves really
"awakened" to become vegetarians? That might be pushing the pseudo-scientific
background that SR builds much of it's world upon.

My thoughts are as follows, since I am unaware of any official rulings on this.

Elves probably do have a bit more difficulty digesting meat. Fish and shellfish may be a
touch easier, but that's really my own random thinking. Probably means a bit more
"gas" and other associated minor problems that most Americans associate with
meals such as chili.

The majority of it probably is cultural however. Sprung up somewhere, somehow (perhaps as
a result of the minor problems I posit above).

You have to remember that even if it is purely cultural in it's roots, vegetarians today
can have great difficulty eating meat even when they want to.

I've spoken with a number of vegetarians. Some of them planned on doing it only
temporarily. But after six months of eating no meat at all, when they had that big giant
steak in front of them, it turned their stomach. Six months ago, they would have eaten it
with relish. But in six months, their minds and bodies had adjusted. With enough
willpower and patience, they could have a "normal" diet again, but who wants to
eat anything that turns their stomach?

Bottomline then is that all it would take would be for an entire generation being
vegetarian for a few months or more and it suddenly becomes rather difficult for them to
go back. And if your mother is veggie, then what are the chances she is going to give
you, as a child, meat? Pretty slim. So the children are raised veggie (or mostly
anyway), and it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

That's the basic model I apply in my own game. Perhaps it started as fashion. Perhaps
elven digestive tracts aren't quite as capable of digesting meat, making them susceptible
to "gas" and other associated difficulties. But regardless, the large majority
of elves are now vegetarian.

>Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? Debates
>on my sanity?

I don't think your insanity has ever been in question...

Later,

Erik J.
Message no. 39
From: Justin Fang justinf@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:02:53 -0800 (PST)
Mach wrote:
>So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
>(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
>really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
>necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?

My guess would be that elves commonly have a food allergy to meat, so some
of them may just have a mild reaction to the stuff and others may go into
anaphylactic shock. And/or, they may have difficulties digesting meat,
similar to lactose intolerance (which is common in certain populations).
Probably some cultural reinfocement, too.

I wouldn't say all elves have it, though, because then you can have fun with
chracters who go against the stereotypes: "Gimmie a chili dog with fried
onions, saurkraut, pickles, mustard, and ketchup. Yeah, I'm an elf. What,
you gotta problem with that?"

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 40
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:49:37 -0800 (PST)
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, the Dark Stranger wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:12 -0800 (PST) Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> wrote:

> SR2 does state it outright, but that's dropped in SR3. I think
> that's because of the various biological items you mentioned in your
> post. Have elves really "awakened" to become vegetarians? That
> might be pushing the pseudo-scientific background that SR builds
> much of it's world upon.

Somehow being granted the ability to see into the Infra-red, gaining
large bony deposits on the flesh, or having radically different
procreative and aging tendencies seem to me a bit more drastic than a
little intestinal trouble. I.e. it would seem to me, that if these
other changes could have developed and be hidden in the meta-genome,
then if the elven race evolved over the eons to be herbivorous, it could
be hidden in the meta-genome as well.

> Elves probably do have a bit more difficulty digesting meat. Fish
> and shellfish may be a touch easier, but that's really my own random
> thinking. Probably means a bit more "gas" and other associated
> minor problems that most Americans associate with meals such as
> chili.

Heh...actually probably the opposite.

Fish and shellfish, being further away from mammals genetically, and
therefore more dissimilar in their protein composition, especially
shellfish and mollusks, should logically be _harder_ to digest, unless
the somewhere along the line were a species that predominately ate such
things, and hence adapted to that sort of diet (like sea-otters).
(E.g. People die from anaphylactic shock eating shellfish. I've never
heard of that happening with beef.)

On the other hand, food that typically makes peoply "gassy" are those
which contain lots of fiber, a.k.a. cellulose. An herbivore who can't
handle cellulose, the thing which gives plants their cellular strength
and is the primary component of wood is going to be in a world of
trouble.

What you may be thinking of is stuff that is "greasy" or high in animal
fat that tends to give some people the runs. That, I would agree, would
be very hard on an herbivore's stomach.

> The majority of it probably is cultural however. Sprung up
> somewhere, somehow (perhaps as a result of the minor problems I
> posit above).
>
> You have to remember that even if it is purely cultural in it's
> roots, vegetarians today can have great difficulty eating meat even
> when they want to.

Well, there are some people who "don't like the taste." And are
vegetarian for more than moral/cultural reasons. Some people, in fact,
have metabolic problems with meat protein and are vegetarian by
necessity, which is why I brought all that up.

> I've spoken with a number of vegetarians. Some of them planned on
> doing it only temporarily. But after six months of eating no meat
> at all, when they had that big giant steak in front of them, it
> turned their stomach.

Is that before, or after they had eaten some of it? Quite possibly,
their stomachs had adjusted to a lack of large doses of protein and
therefore was producing less acid and protein-digesting enzymes, which
would make eating steak rather difficult and could give them a stomach
ache. (Note from Dr. Science in case you have forgotten it from biology
class: This is why your stomach is acidic. Protein-digesting enzymes
[pepsin] in your stomach only work in a highly acidic environment.
When the food passes into the intestine, it is neutralized so that,
well, so that you don't accidently digest yourself, which sounds like a
rather painful way to go. Hmmm....)

> Bottomline then is that all it would take would be for an entire
> generation being vegetarian for a few months or more and it suddenly
> becomes rather difficult for them to go back. And if your mother is
> veggie, then what are the chances she is going to give you, as a
> child, meat? Pretty slim. So the children are raised veggie (or
> mostly anyway), and it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

True...but someone who has lived a vegitarian existance their entire
life still has to consume enough protein in their diet to be healthy,
and so still has all the "apparatus" in place to deal with an omnivorous
diet. And, given time to acclimate (and a desire to do so) I'm willing
to bet good money they could down a Porterhouse with the best of them.
So if elves were only culturally vegitarian, then someone who wanted to
pass themselves off as human could easily work up to an omnivorous diet
in some reasonable amount of time. Someone who is biologically adapted
to an herbivorous diet, no matter the will, or time to accimate, could
never do the same. That, I think is part of the problem and my
conscern.

> That's the basic model I apply in my own game. Perhaps it started
> as fashion. Perhaps elven digestive tracts aren't quite as capable
> of digesting meat, making them susceptible to "gas" and other
> associated difficulties. But regardless, the large majority of
> elves are now vegetarian.

If it is biological though, it wouldn't just be a large majority, it
would be all of them, with a few "renegades" barely able to force
themselves to stomach a bit of meat in their diet in order to not be
seen as a "daisy eater."

To those familiar with WhiteWolf's Vampire: The Masquerade, I am
reminded of a skill that vampire characters can develop that helps them
pass themselves off as human. It includes such talents as being able to
hold down human food and drink for prolonged periods of time without
having to throw up because their digestive tract has atrophied to the
point of only accepting blood.

> I don't think your insanity has ever been in question...

That's comforting...I think.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 41
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:06:28 -0800 (PST)
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Justin Fang wrote:

> Mach wrote:
> >So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
> >(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
> >really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
> >necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?
>
> My guess would be that elves commonly have a food allergy to meat, so some
> of them may just have a mild reaction to the stuff and others may go into
> anaphylactic shock. And/or, they may have difficulties digesting meat,
> similar to lactose intolerance (which is common in certain populations).
> Probably some cultural reinfocement, too.
>
> I wouldn't say all elves have it, though, because then you can have fun with
> chracters who go against the stereotypes: "Gimmie a chili dog with fried
> onions, saurkraut, pickles, mustard, and ketchup. Yeah, I'm an elf. What,
> you gotta problem with that?"

Hmmm.... Well, there's a difference between a stereotype and an actual
biological difference. It isn't as though an elf can "choose" to not
have good night vision or have pointy ears, in as much as you aren't
going to find a Dwarf who is 6'3" because they want to go against the
stereotype. On the other hand, they can get cyber-eyes without it or
get their ears bobbed. Similarly, I suppose just like the supplements
that lactose-intollerant people take (namely encapsulated lactase that
breaks lactose into easier to digest sugars), an elf could take some
pills (pepsin, etc.) that would help them to digest meat, just because
they want to go against the grain or develop a taste for it. I suppose
less likely, mutations can exist or the occasional elf that somehow
managed their human parent's "un-evolved" digestive tract. But they'd
be seen as very unusual, or to paraphrase: "In a world of the
lactose-intollerant, the milk-drinker is stoned." =P

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 42
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:09:39 +0000
In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903251632480.27917-100000@****.ugcs.caltech.e
du>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>
>Consider this a vain attempt to see if people are still on PlotD
>(including myself).

Me me me! :)

>Here's #1:
>So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
>(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
>really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
>necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?

Never heard of such. Easy sure isn't vegetarian: while she might not get
much real meat, she enjoys what she can get. Sasha sure as hell isn't,
he used to be Russian Army; and, let's face it, vegetarianism is a
luxury of civilised nations so awash with nutritious food they can say
"no, not going to eat animal protein".

>In the first case, if elves are vegetarian by choice, then it isn't
>"quite" so big a deal, but it could definitely lead to some social
>consequences, even if there is no deception meant. I.e. Mr. Johnson is
>a devoutly vegan elf and your Sammie goes and orders a big steak to put
>on his tab, they may become less friendly in very short order. (Much
>worse than say, going into an Irish pub and ordering a Bud Lite.)

Or, noticing that Iman Khaled Aziz is hungry, ordering up a plate of
fried pork chops for him :)

>On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
>by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
>archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
>has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
>bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
>This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
>elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
>they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
>difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
>enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
>meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
>and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)

How would this happen so hard so fast? I mean, why are elves suddenly
unable to digest animal protein? (steak? eggs? cheese? can they drink
milk?) Why _animal_ protein, while presumably elves can still chow down
on tofu and nut cutlets?

Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
physical restriction.


>On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
>sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't,

Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...

>In addition,
>it would be really nice to be able to digest cellulose which humans
>can't but many herbivores can. That way you could get away with eating
>a lot less to get the same amount of energy. But this also means, for
>someone trying to pass themselves off as elven, something as subtle as
>diet could tip people off, if they weren't careful.

Hey, I came up with some gastric nanites to do just that. The problem
is, sure, you can gnaw C-12 explosive and get energy from it, but sugar
still contains more calories and is cheaper and easier to come by... and
you need to eat a _lot_ of grass to get enough energy to keep moving all
day. There's a reason most grazers spend all day grazing...

>Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? Debates
>on my sanity?

I'm personally inclined to see "vegetarian Elves" as being a cultural
preference in the Tirs and a false stereotype elsewhere. I've never seen
it as having any physical basis, such as an allergy to actual meat, and
don't intend to do so here unless there's a strong list consensus to the
contrary.
Message no. 43
From: Mark L. Neidengard mneideng@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:54:34 -0800 (PST)
According to Paul J. Adam:
>In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903251632480.27917-100000@****.ugcs.caltech.e
>du>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>>
>>Consider this a vain attempt to see if people are still on PlotD
>>(including myself).
>
>Me me me! :)

Hi hi. ^_^

>>Here's #1:
>>So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
>>(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
>>really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
>>necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?
>Never heard of such. Easy sure isn't vegetarian: while she might not get
>much real meat, she enjoys what she can get. Sasha sure as hell isn't,
>he used to be Russian Army; and, let's face it, vegetarianism is a
>luxury of civilised nations so awash with nutritious food they can say
>"no, not going to eat animal protein".

While we're at it, _where_ in SR2 is this stated?

>>On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
>>by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
>>archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
>>has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
>>bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?

This sounds like foolishness for the sake of the "elven mystique".

>>This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
>>elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
>>they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
>>difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
>>enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
>>meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
>>and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)
>How would this happen so hard so fast? I mean, why are elves suddenly
>unable to digest animal protein? (steak? eggs? cheese? can they drink
>milk?) Why _animal_ protein, while presumably elves can still chow down
>on tofu and nut cutlets?

Quite.

>Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
>vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
>physical restriction.

Agreement. That stipulation would be a nontrivial one in terms of game
mechanics, upsetting the balance of the character race.

>>On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
>>sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't,
>Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...

Well, the Awakened races are supposed to be sort of special, but I don't see
the elves as being that special.

>I'm personally inclined to see "vegetarian Elves" as being a cultural
>preference in the Tirs and a false stereotype elsewhere. I've never seen
>it as having any physical basis, such as an allergy to actual meat, and
>don't intend to do so here unless there's a strong list consensus to the
>contrary.

I agree w/ Paul here.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 44
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:10:35 -0800 (PST)
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> >Here's #1:
> >So, it's been stated in SR2 explicitly, and SR3 implicitly that elves
> >(H. sapiens nobilis) are vegitarian. But, I don't remember if it ever
> >really says why. In other words: Are elves vegetarian by choice, or by
> >necessity? Is there any reason given in a "canon" source?
>
> Never heard of such. Easy sure isn't vegetarian: while she might not get
> much real meat, she enjoys what she can get. Sasha sure as hell isn't,
> he used to be Russian Army; and, let's face it, vegetarianism is a
> luxury of civilised nations so awash with nutritious food they can say
> "no, not going to eat animal protein".

Heh...actually the poorer nations, one would think, would be more likely
to feed the populace on much cheaper to produce mycoprotein. A big vat,
a little nutrients, and presto, cheap meat. No need for wasting the
land and resources to raise a stupid animal for several years just so
you can kill it. Sure it may taste like hell without a lot of
processing, but you can live on it.

> >On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
> >by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
> >archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
> >has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
> >bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
> >This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
> >elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
> >they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
> >difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
> >enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
> >meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
> >and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)
>
> How would this happen so hard so fast? I mean, why are elves suddenly
> unable to digest animal protein? (steak? eggs? cheese? can they drink
> milk?) Why _animal_ protein, while presumably elves can still chow down
> on tofu and nut cutlets?

Hmmm... Well perhaps a decreased ability to digest animal protein, if,
as I suggested, they had the ability to synthesize all necessary
proteins, and therefore didn't need to consume as much tofu or nut
cutlets as a human vegitarian would. And then even too much tofu could
become a problem. Unless, as I already suggested, they took dietary
supplements to help them digest it.

> Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
> vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
> physical restriction.

Why then was it treated as such an absolute, other than the typical
answer (ah, it's just FASA being lame again)? Why is it that one of the
cannonical nicknames for elves is "Daisy Eaters"? If it's just cultural
among the Tirs it probably wouldn't be that wide-spread of a stereotype,
would it? That's what got me curious enough about it to even bother to
bring it up here, else I would have shrugged and gone about my business.
I don't remember any other dietary restrictions for other races. (Or
are Orks or Trolls carnivorous? That would lead to a different, but
similar set of complications to the ones I've been pondering.)

> >On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
> >sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't,
>
> Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...

As I said earlier, so is infra-vision, dermal calcification, and
extended longevity. And, if we are to believe cannon, these "leaps"
were not made in less than a century, but over the eons of the previous
"Worlds" where the races differentiated themselves.

> Hey, I came up with some gastric nanites to do just that. The problem
> is, sure, you can gnaw C-12 explosive and get energy from it, but sugar
> still contains more calories and is cheaper and easier to come by... and
> you need to eat a _lot_ of grass to get enough energy to keep moving all
> day. There's a reason most grazers spend all day grazing...

? Ounce per ounce, C-12 has a lot more energy from sugar. So does
celulose if I remember correctly. ("Burn" C-12 and you blow up a
building, burn cellulose and you get a roaring fire, put a match to a
marshmellow and it does light, and you get a little carmelized carbon,
but it doesn't really burn well) It is just that it takes a lot more
energy and complicated enzymes to break those substances down into a
form that the body can actually use, namely glucose. It is the
inefficiency of the digestion and the energy that it takes to break it
down and resynthesize it into glucose which is the primary reason why
eating grass doesn't result in a lot of food-value energy.

> >Thoughts? Questions? Confirmational citations (book/pg. #)? Debates
> >on my sanity?
>
> I'm personally inclined to see "vegetarian Elves" as being a cultural
> preference in the Tirs and a false stereotype elsewhere. I've never seen
> it as having any physical basis, such as an allergy to actual meat, and
> don't intend to do so here unless there's a strong list consensus to the
> contrary.

I was wanting to feel the list out for that very same reason. It isn't
something that would probably come up in your typical RPG. GM: "Well,
it's getting late. I figure your characters are getting hungry about
now." Players: "Uh. Well, I guess we go get something to eat then."
End of discussion. (Although there was that one time we had that John
Woo-esque shoot out at the local noodle-place.) However, for me it's
something that would add flavor to a plotline where a character is so
paranoid they'd actually worry about such things. If the list consensus
is: "Its cultural, and now you're getting paranoid," then I'll shut up.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 45
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:47:45 -0800 (PST)
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:

> While we're at it, _where_ in SR2 is this stated?

In the descriptions of the various races: Dwarf, Human, Elf, Orc,
Troll. I don't remember the page, but it's near the beginning. The
same place where they talk about how many teeth they have.

> >>On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
> >>by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
> >>archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
> >>has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
> >>bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
>
> This sounds like foolishness for the sake of the "elven mystique".

Foolishness on the part of the character? Well, would you do something
for "mystique" if it instead of making you look cool, made you the
object of jokes and derision? No.

Foolishness on the part of FASA? No comment.

> >>This has some more absolute consequences than just hurt feelings. If
> >>elves are evolved for a vegitarian diet, then it is quite possible that
> >>they _can't_ eat meat, or at least only in very small quantities without
> >>difficulty. They may lack or be deficient in the amount of digestive
> >>enzymes or metabolic capacity to allow them to digest and metabolize
> >>meat proteins. (The one of the main reasons the human stomach exists
> >>and works the way it does is just for digesting protein, mind you.)
> >How would this happen so hard so fast? I mean, why are elves suddenly
> >unable to digest animal protein? (steak? eggs? cheese? can they drink
> >milk?) Why _animal_ protein, while presumably elves can still chow down
> >on tofu and nut cutlets?

> Quite.

As I said, if they had a problem with dealing with large (normal human)
amounts of dietary protein, then they _would_ have problems chowing down
on normal human vegetarian amounts of nut burgers and tofu.

> >Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
> >vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
> >physical restriction.
>
> Agreement. That stipulation would be a nontrivial one in terms of game
> mechanics, upsetting the balance of the character race.

A restricted diet upsetting the game balance of the character races???

It's actually a _penalty_ if you ask me. The game-mechanics were
already glossed over by the declaration that elves were vegetarians and
derisively called "Daisy Eaters." The didn't exactly put in a section
to deal with the lactose intollerant either. (There's a limit to which
any RPG can give a damn about micromanagement before they end up having
"The Complete Guide to Orcish Bards" like a certain other three letter
RPG system that shall otherwise remain nameless.)

> >>On the positive side, it also may mean that they are capable of
> >>sythesizing all necessary amino acids, which normal humans aren't,

Hmmm...maybe I should put in a little more explanation here: of the 100
amino acids out there 20 are commonly used in protein synthesis and are
found in all living things. The human body only lacks the ability to
synthesize eight of them (two more are produced in low enough quantity
to be a dietary requirement). Most herbivores (or at least the bacteria
in their guts) can synthesize all of them, because their vegitarian diet
is lacking in certain amino acids more commonly found in animals. Many
carnivores can't syntesize all of them, but they don't need to since
they consume animal flesh which contains all they need and in roughly
the right quantities. That way their bodies don't have to waste the
energy to synthesize the complex molecules.

> >Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...
>
> Well, the Awakened races are supposed to be sort of special, but I don't see
> the elves as being that special.

Gee... Never aging. (Theoretically immortal, but we won't go into that
one.) Can see in near darkness. Enigmatically charismatic to all
races. Biologically vegitarian. *WOAH* there boy! Now you've just
gone too damn far!

You see my point? I'm not sure why you approach this as the straw that
broke the camel's back. Now, if the conscensus is that it is cultural,
and that's what most everybody uses as house rules, then I'm cool with
that. I just thought it somewhat strange that some took the idea to be
perposterous, in light of the other perposterous things that have
already been stipulated to and accepted as canon. That elves are
"supposed" to be vegitarian is a given, whether this is for cultural or
biological reasons is a question that doesn't seem to have been
expressly settled by FASA. We can accept one or the other as "true" but
a priori, neither are impossible.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 46
From: the Dark Stranger darkstranger@*******.net
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:58:03 -0500
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:49:37 -0800 (PST) Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> wrote:

>Heh...actually probably the opposite.
>
>Fish and shellfish, being further away from mammals genetically, and
>therefore more dissimilar in their protein composition, especially
>shellfish and mollusks, should logically be _harder_ to digest, unless
>the somewhere along the line were a species that predominately ate such
>things, and hence adapted to that sort of diet (like sea-otters).
>(E.g. People die from anaphylactic shock eating shellfish. I've never
>heard of that happening with beef.)

Okay Mr. Science...<smirk> I was thinking more in line with some of the cultural
variations of vegetarianism. Some variants allow chicken and fish. Some allow fish.
Some don't allow any animal/fish protein (the vegans) but they are the least common.

It's my understanding that it's nothing in the protein make-up of shellfish that people
are allergic to, it's something else (which is escaping me at the moment).

>
>On the other hand, food that typically makes peoply "gassy" are those
>which contain lots of fiber, a.k.a. cellulose. An herbivore who can't
>handle cellulose, the thing which gives plants their cellular strength
>and is the primary component of wood is going to be in a world of
>trouble.
>
>What you may be thinking of is stuff that is "greasy" or high in animal
>fat that tends to give some people the runs. That, I would agree, would
>be very hard on an herbivore's stomach.

True. However, high-doses of protein can cause various forms of gastric distress and
distention. I know from personal experience, when I go on a protein kick and consume
several protein shakes a day, in addition to a normal 3 square meals, I have a bit more
problems of that sort. It's relatively common amongst bodybuilders, weightlifters and
wannabes (I think we all know where I fit in, so shush!). The body can have a hard time
digesting 150grams or more of protein in a day and it can cause gastric
troubles..."runs," "feeling gassy & bloated" and excess gas are
fairly common side-affects.

So if elves have a harder digesting protein, and animal protein in particular, I'd imagine
the affects would be closer to the affects of excess protein than anything else.

>Well, there are some people who "don't like the taste." And are
>vegetarian for more than moral/cultural reasons. Some people, in fact,
>have metabolic problems with meat protein and are vegetarian by
>necessity, which is why I brought all that up.

Very true. I just heard of the new fad diet that is supposedly based upon blood types.
Apparently, a certain blood type almost demands a vegetarian diet for optimal health. I
suppose there's probably some kernel of truth behind it all, but the diet itself is
probably hogwash.

>> I've spoken with a number of vegetarians. Some of them planned on
>> doing it only temporarily. But after six months of eating no meat
>> at all, when they had that big giant steak in front of them, it
>> turned their stomach.
>
>Is that before, or after they had eaten some of it?

Before. One guy in particular planned to eat a giant steak after going veggie for six
months and simply couldn't do it. He used to LOVE meat, but did it for health and a bet.
He won the bet, but sit a nice steaming slab of beef in front of him and he's likely to
puke.

>Quite possibly,
>their stomachs had adjusted to a lack of large doses of protein and
>therefore was producing less acid and protein-digesting enzymes, which
>would make eating steak rather difficult and could give them a stomach
>ache.

Very strong possibility. Both the mind and body had adjusted to the diet.
>True...but someone who has lived a vegitarian existance their entire
>life still has to consume enough protein in their diet to be healthy,
>and so still has all the "apparatus" in place to deal with an omnivorous
>diet.

Excluding any psychological elements. Odors of certain foods make me queasy. Don't need
to see or taste them to be revolted.

>And, given time to acclimate (and a desire to do so) I'm willing
>to bet good money they could down a Porterhouse with the best of them.

Given time and will, yes. But it would be akin to trying to overcome a phobia, such as
spiders or heights. It takes work...and not many folks are likely to be willing to put
that work in.

>If it is biological though, it wouldn't just be a large majority, it
>would be all of them, with a few "renegades" barely able to force
>themselves to stomach a bit of meat in their diet in order to not be
>seen as a "daisy eater."

I think the biology doesn't demand strict vegetarianism. If I'm an elf and I'm willing to
put up with gas and perhaps the runs, but I love steak, it's not a problem. If I'm not
willing to put up with those essentially minor inconveniences, then I guess I'm a veggie.

Again, I do think there are some biological reasons behind it all. I don't think it's
100% cultural. But it probably is for the most part, at least in 2060/61, given how long
elves have been around and have been eating mostly veggie diets.

I think, for example, a chef salad would probably be okay for an elf. Minimal problems.
But a giant slab of roast beef, that might be asking for it...

Erik J.
Message no. 47
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:57:48 -0700 (MST)
I cut it all - you all got the other messages


I seem to remember in SR1 (yes the OLD OLD system) that it mentioned
Elves were Vegetarian. The crux of the matter is though that Vegetarian
is a pyschological choice (mental) while being a Herbivore (plant eater)
is a physciological choice (physical).


In the Paranormal Guide to Animals (I think - its been about 7 years since
I saw the reference) it mentions that the writer of the descriptions is a
bit biased (Actually I think one person calls him a quack with an agenda)
and that you can trust all of him animal descriptions some as much as you
can trust his scientific descriptions of the Homo Sapiens sub-species.


PS. - Dandelion Eaters


Nightfox
Message no. 48
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:36:26 +0000
In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903261010420.21263-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
edu>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>Gee... Never aging. (Theoretically immortal, but we won't go into that
>one.)

Again, Sasha, Mani and Easy would be _delighted_ to have that be true:
all anticipate no more than their appointed three score years and ten,
that assuming nobody kills them first. Okay, so all three can probably
afford to Leonise now... still, once life settles down I've got some
low-rent characters arriving :)

>Can see in near darkness.

So can my cat :)

>Enigmatically charismatic to all
>races.

So is my cat :)

>Biologically vegitarian. *WOAH* there boy! Now you've just
>gone too damn far!

What species _can't_ metabolise animal protein? That's unusual. Many
never normally expected to: some do because they get fed it. I heard it
said that cheap chipboard was made from sawdust and blood glue, and also
that waste chipboard was broken up and used as cattle feed.

>You see my point? I'm not sure why you approach this as the straw that
>broke the camel's back.

Because it's unusual?

>Now, if the conscensus is that it is cultural,
>and that's what most everybody uses as house rules, then I'm cool with
>that.

That's the version I've used throughout. Mani avoids most pork products
other than bacon and pork scratchings (both sterilised by huge amounts
of additives not known to Mohammed - Mani may be religious but he's a
realist) but has always been carnivorous. Sasha ate whatever the Russian
Army put in his mess tin. Easy couldn't afford to be choosy. Such is my
position on the list so far, anyway, and I don't think any of the
characters are committed to that by past posts. If we gotta change, I
can handle it, I'll just mutter and grumble :)

> I just thought it somewhat strange that some took the idea to be
>perposterous, in light of the other perposterous things that have
>already been stipulated to and accepted as canon. That elves are
>"supposed" to be vegitarian is a given, whether this is for cultural or
>biological reasons is a question that doesn't seem to have been
>expressly settled by FASA. We can accept one or the other as "true" but
>a priori, neither are impossible.

Would Elves themselves know? Some not only eat meat but claim to like
it. Of course, given what meat would cost in 2060 Seattle, maybe they're
just indulging in conspicuous consumption, forcing the foul stuff down
until they can slip away and regurgitate it.

Others might claim that even the smell of cooked meat makes their
stomach turn. True, false, or the result of upbringing? After all, if
you've eaten meat from a very early age it's a delicacy (I'm an
unashamed carnivore) but I can easily see how some would find it
repulsive: they would have trouble eating it and holding it down, even
if their alimentary tract could extract much nutrition from it.
Message no. 49
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 03:00:44 +0000
In message <199903262158.QAA15806@****.chek.com>, the Dark Stranger
<darkstranger@*******.net> writes
>Before. One guy in particular planned to eat a giant steak after going veggie
>for six months and simply couldn't do it. He used to LOVE meat, but did it for
>health and a bet. He won the bet, but sit a nice steaming slab of beef in front
>of him and he's likely to puke.

I can sort of believe that. Hazel and I didn't go vegetarian, but we did
decide to cut back on the meat-plus-starch (meat and potatoes of various
sorts, curry and rice, fish and chips, whatever) and get more and more
varied vegetables into our diet. We still really enjoy meat, but we eat
less of it and we're probably fussier as to its quality.

I personally have never been less than enticed by a slab of good lean
rare beef: but I've been revolted by a bad steak (greasy, gristly,
gruesome) and can understand completely with anyone who doesn't want to
eat meat even though I do :)

Moral - anyone visiting, warn me about dietary preferences _before_ I
plan the menu :)

>Excluding any psychological elements. Odors of certain foods make me queasy.
>Don't need to see or taste them to be revolted.

Which ones, out of interest? I don't seem to suffer from this: the only
smell that makes me feel ill is juniper berries. Odd, because I've
neither knowingly consumed them, nor drunk gin at all (let alone to
excess).

>Given time and will, yes. But it would be akin to trying to overcome a phobia,
>such as spiders or heights. It takes work...and not many folks are likely to be
>willing to put that work in.

And, given how expensive 'real meat' would be, who would want to? I
don't see this as being an Elven philosophy, I'd expect a lot of Barrens
and blue-collar-district residents would be nauseated by the sight and
smell of a big rare porterhouse steak.


For instance, I've briefly tried caviar and I consider it tastes like a
pallid, cold, wet version of cod roe. (Pressed cod roe, sliced and
shallow-fried in butter flavoured with a little garlic and pepper, is a
cheap and delicious dinner: caviar, on my limited acquaintance so far,
has all its vices and none of its virtues)

I was told that caviar was 'an acquired taste' - fine, those with more
disposable income and less to spend it on than I could 'acquire a taste'
for a vaguely fish-flavoured gelid mass of fish eggs. I preferred the
Cajun-spiced tiger prawns on the next plate of tbe buffet and ate rather
too many of them instead :)

I could see that many people seemed to love the stuff, and more power to
them. I didn't :)

>I think the biology doesn't demand strict vegetarianism. If I'm an elf and I'm
>willing to put up with gas and perhaps the runs, but I love steak, it's not a
>problem. If I'm not willing to put up with those essentially minor
>inconveniences, then I guess I'm a veggie.

And, again, if I like meat and eat it (and can afford to do so) then my
digestion is used to the idea. But if - like most of 2060 Seattle,
apparently - even 'real vegetables' are pricey luxury, "real meat" will
be a rare item.

And perhaps some digestive discomfort is as much part of the carnivore
"experience" as the "ring-stinger" effect of a potent curry is to some
Britons, as various lively chemical flavours pass through the alimentary
canal undigested... :)

(No, I don't speak from personal experience, but I've seen it happen to
friends...)
Message no. 50
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:21:07 +0000
In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903260937140.21263-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
edu>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> Never heard of such. Easy sure isn't vegetarian: while she might not get
>> much real meat, she enjoys what she can get. Sasha sure as hell isn't,
>> he used to be Russian Army; and, let's face it, vegetarianism is a
>> luxury of civilised nations so awash with nutritious food they can say
>> "no, not going to eat animal protein".
>
>Heh...actually the poorer nations, one would think, would be more likely
>to feed the populace on much cheaper to produce mycoprotein. A big vat,
>a little nutrients, and presto, cheap meat.

Plus you need to filter out trace elements, eliminate contaminants, make
sure no less-than-friendly species colonise this warm vat of
nutrients... if it was so cheap and easy to grow food in vats, why are
so many Africans dying of hunger?

Again... this sort of system demands infrastructure. Like, clean water,
and reliable electric power, and available skilled technicians - all
desperately scarce resources, which are rare in some corners of North
America by 2060 let alone the less-developed nations.

Remember - look at the Barrens and see how far the US fell between 'now'
and 'then'. Now imagine most of Africa, or Russia, or China...

>No need for wasting the
>land and resources to raise a stupid animal for several years just so
>you can kill it.

Again - unless you _have_ the vats, the cultures, the nutrient, clean
water and reliable electricity, you can't even start on the mycoprotein
route.

Meanwhile, sheep will graze on any available grass, and furnish wool and
even milk while alive and meat when butchered: while they will also make
more sheep over time, a trick mycoprotein vats have never learned :)
>
>> Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
>> vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
>> physical restriction.
>
>Why then was it treated as such an absolute, other than the typical
>answer (ah, it's just FASA being lame again)?

As Mark N. said, Elves are vegetarian (expressing choice) not herbivore.

>Why is it that one of the
>cannonical nicknames for elves is "Daisy Eaters"?

Thought it was 'dandelion eaters'?

>If it's just cultural
>among the Tirs it probably wouldn't be that wide-spread of a stereotype,
>would it?

Depends. The Tirs are not percieved as friendly or popular, in most FASA
material: and what is their defining characteristic? If you're not an
Elf, don't bother.

So, they would get presented as "the archetypal Elven ideal" since they
are primarily Elven homelands: even if many Elves despise them and
everything they stand for.

>> Kind of an evolutionary leap to make in less than a century, though...
>
>As I said earlier, so is infra-vision, dermal calcification, and
>extended longevity. And, if we are to believe cannon, these "leaps"
>were not made in less than a century, but over the eons of the previous
>"Worlds" where the races differentiated themselves.

Not sure about the 'extended longevity' part - never heard that _all_
elves live Really Really Long Times.

As for low-light or thermal vision, well, hey, my cat does one and pit
vipers manage another, both adaptations are relatively minor (either a
crystalline layer at the retina, or a small auxiliary sense organ)
compared to rewiring a human digestive tract to both synthesise protein
and be unreceptive to provided protein.

After all, remember one of the causes of the BSE outbreak... feeding
dead cows to live cows to keep their protein intake high. The cows coped
fine (except for a nasty prion)

>> Hey, I came up with some gastric nanites to do just that. The problem
>> is, sure, you can gnaw C-12 explosive and get energy from it, but sugar
>> still contains more calories and is cheaper and easier to come by... and
>> you need to eat a _lot_ of grass to get enough energy to keep moving all
>> day. There's a reason most grazers spend all day grazing...
>
>? Ounce per ounce, C-12 has a lot more energy from sugar.

Uh.... no. RDX contains ~4000kJ/kg, IIRC, about the same as pure
glucose, but to make it into a plastic explosive you need to mix it with
a plasticiser and wax which reduce its net energy content. And, RDX is
self-contained, while sugar needs an oxidising agent.

>So does
>celulose if I remember correctly.

Cellulose is just cross-linked sugar.

>("Burn" C-12 and you blow up a
>building, burn cellulose and you get a roaring fire,

Throw a block of secondary explosive (C-4, TNT, RDX, whatever) in a fire
and it burns. It needs a lot of persuasion to detonate (the definition
of 'secondary explosive'). The point is, it _can_ detonate, liberating
energy far faster than most combustibles, and without outside constraint
such as presene of oxidiser.

>> I'm personally inclined to see "vegetarian Elves" as being a cultural
>> preference in the Tirs and a false stereotype elsewhere. I've never seen
>> it as having any physical basis, such as an allergy to actual meat, and
>> don't intend to do so here unless there's a strong list consensus to the
>> contrary.
>
>I was wanting to feel the list out for that very same reason. It isn't
>something that would probably come up in your typical RPG. GM: "Well,
>it's getting late. I figure your characters are getting hungry about
>now." Players: "Uh. Well, I guess we go get something to eat then."
>End of discussion. (Although there was that one time we had that John
>Woo-esque shoot out at the local noodle-place.) However, for me it's
>something that would add flavor to a plotline where a character is so
>paranoid they'd actually worry about such things. If the list consensus
>is: "Its cultural, and now you're getting paranoid," then I'll shut up.

Again, Mark N. put his finger on it for me when he pointed out that
Elves are described as 'vegetarian' not 'herbivore'.

One is choice (even if not personal but cultural - look at the Jain
Indians, who survive perfectly well on a diet so vegetarian they won't
even eat beetroot because it appears to bleed: but they _could_
metabolise meat, they merely refuse to eat it) , the other is a physical
limitation (and even then not a binding limitation, depending who makes
your cattle cake)
Message no. 51
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:53:03 +0000
In message <Pine.SOL.3.95.990326153502.20222B-100000@****.ucc.nau.edu>,
Daniel Waisley <Dan.Waisley@***.edu> writes
>PS. - Dandelion Eaters
>
>Nightfox

Long time no see, Dan :)
Message no. 52
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:31:11 -0800 (PST)
On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903261010420.21263-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
> edu>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
> >Gee... Never aging. (Theoretically immortal, but we won't go into that
> >one.)
>
> Again, Sasha, Mani and Easy would be _delighted_ to have that be true:
> all anticipate no more than their appointed three score years and ten,
> that assuming nobody kills them first. Okay, so all three can probably
> afford to Leonise now... still, once life settles down I've got some
> low-rent characters arriving :)

Well, at least according to FASA, after a certain age (maturity) all
elves stop aging. That doesn't mean they can't get shot, run over,
thrown off a building, get heart disease, cancer, etc. So that
generally puts an ultimate cap on age, especially the cancer part and
other genetic damage and hardening of the arteries or other irreperable
damage to internal organs. NB: Death by "old age" (the body getting so
old that it just malfunctions to death) isn't as common as one might
think, and many times that phrase is simply used as a euphamism for
something else, like cancer or organ failure due to some other cause
that an old person couldn't fight off.

So theoretically, elves can live longer, but they can also die just as
easily of all the other things that people die of. At which point
Leonization is actually a viable option. Elves just might come out of
it looking better than your average human going in, because the process
doesn't have to reset celular clocks as well, it just has to clean out
the damage that the years have left on the body.

The "immortal" comment comes from the *gasp/shudder* IE's whose ability
to be around since the 4th or previous world has never been adequately
explained to me. And someone said to me once that they can even somehow
survive beyond death and be reborn with their memories or something.
Uh...yeah, like sure, whatever dude.

> What species _can't_ metabolise animal protein? That's unusual.

Well, I didn't really mean they _couldn't_ metabolize animal protein at
all, because that would mean they couldn't metabolize any protein. But
some animals can't have the same percentage of protein in their diet as
we humans do without having trouble. Either a bad tummy ache because
they don't produce enough of the chemicals to allow them to digest so
much of it, or because they can digest it, but in too great quantities,
they can't metabolize them or their bi-products fast enough and get
liver or kidney poisoning.

As for your comment about cows, remember the actual amount of meat
protein they get in their feed isn't anything like the 25% of calories
(+/- wildly depending on what you eat that day) you get from meat
sources like many people eat today.

> >You see my point? I'm not sure why you approach this as the straw that
> >broke the camel's back.
>
> Because it's unusual?

Well, I was just pointing out that it isn't any _more_ unusual than the
rest of the stuff that they've already stipulated. And it would have
some negative side effects, unlike just about everything else with which
the elves have been granted.

> >Now, if the conscensus is that it is cultural,
> >and that's what most everybody uses as house rules, then I'm cool with
> >that.
>
> That's the version I've used throughout.

> Such is my
> position on the list so far, anyway, and I don't think any of the
> characters are committed to that by past posts. If we gotta change, I
> can handle it, I'll just mutter and grumble :)

My main reason for bringing it up was to see if there was any canonical
answer to the question. It seems there isn't or someone would have
mentioned it by now. So, I really don't see a reason why you have to
change your view about any of your characters.

Well, as far as I can see, the way I'm going to handle it is to not make
any definite declaration one way or another, that's for sure. If
anything, in case some muckitymuck at FASA one day decides to rule on
that some day (I'm not going to hold my breath, mind you). I will say
and play it that a vegitarian elf who suddenly decides to be macho and
eat a steak is going to have significant bodily problems with it. As
we've already discussed, even if they were vegitarian by choice, their
body will have adapted enough to spell trouble.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 53
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:09:41 -0800 (PST)
On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> Plus you need to filter out trace elements, eliminate contaminants, make
> sure no less-than-friendly species colonise this warm vat of
> nutrients... if it was so cheap and easy to grow food in vats, why are
> so many Africans dying of hunger?

Because they can't even afford myco? (Or can't afford to import it from
some country who can produce it.) No currency + no resources == SOL In
that case keeping a goat in the back yard becomes a more reasonable
option, I'll agree.

> Again... this sort of system demands infrastructure. Like, clean water,
> and reliable electric power, and available skilled technicians - all
> desperately scarce resources, which are rare in some corners of North
> America by 2060 let alone the less-developed nations.
>
> Remember - look at the Barrens and see how far the US fell between 'now'
> and 'then'. Now imagine most of Africa, or Russia, or China...

True. But in first world nations it would be a much cheaper alternative
than raising livestock.

> >No need for wasting the
> >land and resources to raise a stupid animal for several years just so
> >you can kill it.
>
> Again - unless you _have_ the vats, the cultures, the nutrient, clean
> water and reliable electricity, you can't even start on the mycoprotein
> route.

Granted. I guess I didn't put enough thought into that.

> Meanwhile, sheep will graze on any available grass, and furnish wool and
> even milk while alive and meat when butchered: while they will also make
> more sheep over time, a trick mycoprotein vats have never learned :)

Uh...Paul? Fungi and bacterium don't reproduce? (And at insane rates
at that?) That _is_ news to me. =P

The big news nowadays is Human Insulin. That is because they taught a
bacterium (E.Coli I think) and a yeast (aka fungi) to secrete human
insulin by transgenically giving it the human DNA which codes for its
production. Keep them warm, happy, and fed and they continue to pump
out human insulin, and keep breeding to make more and more bacterium or
yeasties.

> >Why then was it treated as such an absolute, other than the typical
> >answer (ah, it's just FASA being lame again)?
>
> As Mark N. said, Elves are vegetarian (expressing choice) not herbivore.

Er, that was Nightfox, but yeah. Point taken. It is an important
symantic difference, but then I'm a bit nervous in assuming that FASA
actually knows the difference.

> >Why is it that one of the
> >cannonical nicknames for elves is "Daisy Eaters"?
>
> Thought it was 'dandelion eaters'?

See previous comment.

(At least I didn't say Lotus Eaters....)

> Uh.... no. RDX contains ~4000kJ/kg, IIRC, about the same as pure
> glucose, but to make it into a plastic explosive you need to mix it with
> a plasticiser and wax which reduce its net energy content. And, RDX is
> self-contained, while sugar needs an oxidising agent.

Hunh.... You learn something new every day.

(The rest seemed pretty much addressed in the one I just sent.)

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 54
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:51:31 +0000
In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.9903262331300.26889-100000@***.ugcs.caltech.ed
u>, Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> writes
>On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> Plus you need to filter out trace elements, eliminate contaminants, make
>> sure no less-than-friendly species colonise this warm vat of
>> nutrients... if it was so cheap and easy to grow food in vats, why are
>> so many Africans dying of hunger?
>
>Because they can't even afford myco? (Or can't afford to import it from
>some country who can produce it.) No currency + no resources == SOL In
>that case keeping a goat in the back yard becomes a more reasonable
>option, I'll agree.

My mother keeps chickens (fed on grain and leftovers from the kitchen),
sheep and occasionally a pig.

>> Again... this sort of system demands infrastructure. Like, clean water,
>> and reliable electric power, and available skilled technicians - all
>> desperately scarce resources, which are rare in some corners of North
>> America by 2060 let alone the less-developed nations.
>>
>> Remember - look at the Barrens and see how far the US fell between 'now'
>> and 'then'. Now imagine most of Africa, or Russia, or China...
>
>True. But in first world nations it would be a much cheaper alternative
>than raising livestock.

If you have the infrastructure. If you just have lots of grassland,
though, livestock's a better bet for most people.

>> Meanwhile, sheep will graze on any available grass, and furnish wool and
>> even milk while alive and meat when butchered: while they will also make
>> more sheep over time, a trick mycoprotein vats have never learned :)
>
>Uh...Paul? Fungi and bacterium don't reproduce? (And at insane rates
>at that?) That _is_ news to me. =P

The microorganisms do, the vats to grow them in don't. Two rabbits can
make many many rabbits in a year: two mycoprotein vats won't reproduce
no matter how much you try to coax them to breed...
Message no. 55
From: Mark L. Neidengard mneideng@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:00:48 -0800 (PST)
According to Mach:
>On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:
>
>> While we're at it, _where_ in SR2 is this stated?
>In the descriptions of the various races: Dwarf, Human, Elf, Orc,
>Troll. I don't remember the page, but it's near the beginning. The
>same place where they talk about how many teeth they have.

I did what I should have done in the first place and grabbed my SR2:

"The following information is available courtesy of Studies in Awakened
Biology, by Doctors Eileen Van Buren and Pater Carmine, published in 2048 by
Modern Information Services, Atlanta (CAS). The biases are the authors' own,
in particular, their view of Homo sapiens more as interesting creatures than
sentient beings. The authors also tend to view personal or cultural traits as
genetic predispositions." (SR2, p. 34)

"ELF - ...Habits: Elves are nocturnal beings. Their diet is vegetarian. The
tend to live in small groups, preferably apart from the rest of humanity. The
elf life-expectancy is unverified, with possible life spans of several hundred
years, but metabolic studies are inconclusive. ... Commentary: Elven eyes are
heavily endowed with rod structures. This allows them to see in dim light far
better than sapiens." (SR2, p. 36)

The Racial Modifications Table on SR2 p. 45 lists no intrinsic Allergies
(as defined on SR2 p. 220) for any of the races. All use of Allergies at
character creation time is optional according to SR2 p. 46.

>> >>On the other hand, there seem to be some hints that elves are vegitarian
>> >>by biology, rather than conscience. Or else why would the elven
>> >>archetype anecdote in SR3 complain about feeling different because she
>> >>has to eat a salad when the humans around her are eating steak? If it
>> >>bothers her so much, why doesn't she just eat what everybody else does?
>> This sounds like foolishness for the sake of the "elven mystique".
>Foolishness on the part of FASA? No comment.

Heh.

>> >Don't buy it, sorry. I can buy a cultural preference among many Elves -
>> >vegetarianism exists among some human cultures, after all - but not a
>> >physical restriction.
>> Agreement. That stipulation would be a nontrivial one in terms of game
>> mechanics, upsetting the balance of the character race.
>A restricted diet upsetting the game balance of the character races???

No PC race has a built-in Allergy. If they did, their Racial Modifiers would
have to be changed to compensate as per the "Allergy and Severity Table".
That is what I was talking about.

>It's actually a _penalty_ if you ask me. The game-mechanics were
>already glossed over by the declaration that elves were vegetarians and
>derisively called "Daisy Eaters."

Which I took to be nothing more than a low-IQ insult...remember that in the
biased section they also try to say that elves are both nocturnal and exist
in small groups. We all know that vast amounts of elves lead perfectly
normal lives in the day, and what are the Tirs if not _large_ gatherings of
elves? This was the sort of reason why I had simply discarded that
"vegetarian" bit as nothing more than a peculiarity of _some_ of the elven
enclaves out there, or else delusion on the part of the fictious Drs. van
Buren and Carmine.

>The didn't exactly put in a section
>to deal with the lactose intollerant either. (There's a limit to which
>any RPG can give a damn about micromanagement before they end up having
>"The Complete Guide to Orcish Bards" like a certain other three letter
>RPG system that shall otherwise remain nameless.)

Actually, if a player or GM deems that a character should be lactose
intolerant, the mechanics for giving that character an Allergy are
straightforward.

>> Well, the Awakened races are supposed to be sort of special, but I don't see
>> the elves as being that special.
>Gee... Never aging. (Theoretically immortal, but we won't go into that
>one.) Can see in near darkness. Enigmatically charismatic to all
>races. Biologically vegitarian. *WOAH* there boy! Now you've just
>gone too damn far!

Now now. Where is it that FASA has said _conclusively_ that elves don't age
past a certain point? Elven eyes being extra-endowed in rods is more plausible
to me than for them to suddenly lose the ability to digest meat, but that's
a minor point. The Charisma modifier is a bit odd, I'll admit, but nothing
that really rocks the boat that badly (after all, all these races _are_
essentially human...) What I was really complaining about again is that there
is no game-mechanical justification as of SR2 to say that any of the main
metahuman races as a whole has a built-in Allergy.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 56
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:30:54 -0700 (MST)
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Daniel Waisley wrote:

>>SNIP<<

Stop the presses! Nightfox has not only posted again, but effectivly
admitted to actually keeping up with Plot-D! So much for his excuse that
he didn't have the time anymore.

Back to the original question: I remeber a novel (are they considered
cannon?) that implied an elf could eat meat, and that on an individual
baisis they have no problem watching others eat meat. However I was
always lead to belive it was primarily a cultural thing reinforced with a
slight (or maybe not so slight) problem with digesting meat proteins.

Brion
Message no. 57
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:11:40 -0700 (MST)
> Stop the presses! Nightfox has not only posted again, but effectivly
> admitted to actually keeping up with Plot-D! So much for his excuse that
> he didn't have the time anymore.

Actually - I keep up some with Plot-d but not with Talk (not enough time
for that).

Nightfox
Message no. 58
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:27:34 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:


> No PC race has a built-in Allergy. If they did, their Racial Modifiers would
> have to be changed to compensate as per the "Allergy and Severity Table".
> That is what I was talking about.

Ah. Okay, that makes sense.

> Now now. Where is it that FASA has said _conclusively_ that elves
> don't age past a certain point?

I thought that is in _ShadowTech_ where it addressed the elven Clockwork
Gene (tm). (I forget the page number, since I don't have the book with
me.) In the SR3, where it introduces the races, each race has a line in
their section that describes lifespan, it lists for elves something on
the order of several hundred years (which would probably be in-line with
systemic DNA degredation and resultant cancer and organ failure, since
cellular repair systems are excellent, but not infalible).

Sure, they will die eventually of something, but not from any cellular
clock deciding their time is up and causing system-wide degredation
known as "dying of old age." That also has the interesting implication
that other than the few who "goblinized" into elves at an advanced age,
there really should be no such thing as an old-looking elf (white hair,
liver spots, wrinkles), although I could see weathered features perhaps
on the elder elves (that middle-aged craggy Clint Eastwood look) due to
years of exposure to the elements.

Not that this is much of a consolation to your average ShadowRunning elf
who, by living by the sword, will most likely die by the sword long
before they can celebrate their N-hundredth birthday.

> What I was really complaining about again is that there
> is no game-mechanical justification as of SR2 to say that any of the
> main metahuman races as a whole has a built-in Allergy.

True, and it isn't treated as such. (Although I suppose some GM's might
wish to as a house rule, as a counterpoint to some of the overwhelming
elven benefits.) So, I guess that is a good justification that it
doesn't have a stringent biological basis, and I guess I'm now in the
camp that it shouldn't be treated as such on ShadowTk. I just wish that
FASA had been more explicit in what they meant to say and didn't go and
obfuscate so badly.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 59
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:56:36 -0800
[snippet]

>Sure, they will die eventually of something, but not from any cellular
>clock deciding their time is up and causing system-wide degredation
>known as "dying of old age." That also has the interesting implication
>that other than the few who "goblinized" into elves at an advanced age,

Ermm.... I thought elves didn't goblinize, they were born?

--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 60
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:16:27 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Dvixen wrote:

> [snippet]
>
> >Sure, they will die eventually of something, but not from any cellular
> >clock deciding their time is up and causing system-wide degredation
> >known as "dying of old age." That also has the interesting implication
> >that other than the few who "goblinized" into elves at an advanced age,
>
> Ermm.... I thought elves didn't goblinize, they were born?

Most elves didn't. You may be thinking of the infamous "spike babies"
(elves and dwarves) that were born before the mass goblinizations. But
as far as I know, during "the Change" some people spontaneously
expressed as elves. Also, there has been at least one goblinization of
an adult on the list, so its a little late to turn back now.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 61
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:22:26 -0700 (MST)
> > >known as "dying of old age." That also has the interesting
implication
> > >that other than the few who "goblinized" into elves at an advanced
age,
> >
> > Ermm.... I thought elves didn't goblinize, they were born?
>
> Most elves didn't. You may be thinking of the infamous "spike babies"
> (elves and dwarves) that were born before the mass goblinizations. But
> as far as I know, during "the Change" some people spontaneously
> expressed as elves. Also, there has been at least one goblinization of
> an adult on the list, so its a little late to turn back now.

As far I know there has not been a goblinization into an Elf in any of the
source books (canon) or novels (mostly canon - but w/ artistic license).

Remember - Goblinization is the defined a changing into one of the goblin
races (ork or troll).


As to things happening on the list. Well, remember that this is
Shadowland - the owners take no responsibility for the veracity of any
messages.


Nightfox
Message no. 62
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:06:33 -0800 (PST)
> As far I know there has not been a goblinization into an Elf in any of the
> source books (canon) or novels (mostly canon - but w/ artistic license).
>
> Remember - Goblinization is the defined a changing into one of the goblin
> races (ork or troll).

Uh...well, I was using the word loosely (and in lower-case) to describe
any spontaneous transformation into one of the meta-races after birth.
"The Goblinization" was a world-wide event that happened in the 2020's
where many people spontaneosly transformed, many of them into orks and
trolls (hence the term) and a good many of them not surviving the
transformation.

> As to things happening on the list. Well, remember that this is
> Shadowland - the owners take no responsibility for the veracity of any
> messages.

To a point. In the matter of opinions, and unverifiable claims of "I
did >>whatever<<," it can be left fuzzy. Sure. Someone who claims they
turned into an elf, that was depicted as human before and elven after is
a different matter. Those are the sorts of things, when fishy, are the
reason why PlotD exists.

But hey, it wasn't my character.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 63
From: Daniel Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:16:36 -0700 (MST)
> To a point. In the matter of opinions, and unverifiable claims of "I
> did >>whatever<<," it can be left fuzzy. Sure. Someone who claims
they
> turned into an elf, that was depicted as human before and elven after is
> a different matter. Those are the sorts of things, when fishy, are the
> reason why PlotD exists.
>
> But hey, it wasn't my character.

jog my memory - who was it?


Hmm - don't really remember the recent stuff, but i diffinately remember


THE MONICA WARS

Ah - the GOOD OL DAYS!!!!
<smirk>

Ok - so we almost all died and RUFUS (the cool AI) bit the dust.

God - that must have been 1993 or so. Man - it has REALLY been a long
time.



Nightfox
Message no. 64
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (1): Food for thought
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:38:48 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Daniel Waisley wrote:

> > To a point. In the matter of opinions, and unverifiable claims of "I
> > did >>whatever<<," it can be left fuzzy. Sure. Someone who
claims they
> > turned into an elf, that was depicted as human before and elven after is
> > a different matter. Those are the sorts of things, when fishy, are the
> > reason why PlotD exists.
> >
> > But hey, it wasn't my character.
>
> jog my memory - who was it?

Uh...I know it happened, don't remember who actually. The character was
female, I do know that much. It was around when I actually got tired of
kibitzing friends posts and joined myself, which would be Summer of '96
or after.

Unfortunately, the old archives are MIA...so I can't check. (Mark I.:
Care to speculate on when the old logs and the finished cast database
will be available from jackpoint.org?) Hmmm...it wasn't Quinn, was it
Paul?

--My two yen

Jeff

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