Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (2): Sorcery for Conjurors?
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:10:59 -0800
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, the Dark Stranger wrote:

Hmmm...note to self: don't try to start a thread on an ML while comming
down with a nasty flu bug.

> >This lead to the question: Could a Conjuror with Sorcery
> >skill give their Ally sorcery ability and use their karma/time to learn
> >spells spell for them, even if they can't cast spells themselves?
>
> Hmmmm...interesting. I don't think it's ever really been touched
> upon before, since there are very few Conjurors around. Sort of
> like mundane, unagumented humans; on TK they can be great to play,
> but in a real SR game with combat, they aren't built to survive
> except unless played by truely exceptional players.

I guess that depends on how combat-heavy / role-playing-deficient the
campaign is. Of note, though, since a Conjuring Adept doesn't spend
karma on spells (unless for an Ally) then they tend to have more karma
lying around for other things. (In other words they aren't subjugated
to being the most massively unskilled people in the group as the
campaign progresses and everybody else has karma to spend on things
other than magic. Also, by being adepts, they don't necessarily have to
be the most wimpy members of the group either by being able to set other
priorities higher during character creation.

> However, my inclination, based upon all that _I_ know and my
> interpretations of the rules, are that sure, a Conjuror could leard
> a Sorcery spell so that it could be taught/learnt by an ally spirit.

In the absence of contrary opinions, I am libel to start putting a
character like this together. And I wouldn't be adverse to anyone else
using one either (although I would strongly encourage originality).

> Perhaps a caveat could be imposed that since the Conjuror doesn't
> have real-world experience with Sorcery, the ally spirit would only
> get the skill initially at say, half the Conjuror's skill. But I
> see no reason, mechanics or theory-wise, why the basic concept isn't
> sound.

Hmmmn. Well, Since it says "Sorcery Skill" and provides no other
mechanics, then I would say that there is no reason to monkey with it
any further, if someone wanted to implement it in their game. But then,
since this is ShadowTk, then actual skill levels, etc. aren't really
_that_ important.

> >Obviously, this makes Conjurors (or at least Conjurors with Allies) much
> >more powerful / versatile / useful than if they couldn't.
>
> Perhaps the best reason *for* it.

Well, I wasn't about to say that.... >>insert innocent look here<<

It does makes Shamanic Conjuring adepts a not completely silly
idea any more.

> >I can also
> >understand the basis of the argument that if you can't actually wield
> >the magic, how are you supposed to have the spirit learn the spell?
>
> Part of that can be answered by the fact that the astral plane, a
> plane of magical energy, is the native homeland for any spirit.
> They understand astral energies instinctively.

That is a good counterpoint. A _human_ trying to teach a spirit about
how to wield magic is kind of like trying to teach a fish how to swim.

> >However, at first glance (and without FASA declaring "Thou shalt
not..."
> >in the upcomming _MitS_) it doesn't seem totally unreasonable.
>
> Agreed. And again, with the knowledge that I have, I wouldn't
> expect to see MitS answer this question. At least as far as my
> memory serves me.

*Grumble*

Well, it does leave it up to individual GM's to decide for themselves,
but it would be nicer to have some definitive say one way or another.

> >nice.) It would also definitely make the Conjuror much more careful
> >with their spirits. (Would you really wish to treat your main means of
> >fire-support like dirt only to have them start trying to get away from
> >you--or rid of you--at their earliest convenience?)

> Key factor. The sort of thing that will be abused my munchkins, but
> a major limiting factor for anyone with a modicum of role-playing.

Well story-telling is what this forum is all about. So, I would be less
afraid of abuse around here. But, any GM who ignores the relationship
aspect between a mage and spirits is not keeping up with their duty to
enforce the role-playing environment. Its rather similar to any other
contact, accept that mages can actually _force_ a spirit to do what they
wish. (Which should lead to a certain ammount of resentment
eventually.)

> And of course, if it is, it probably won't be 100% definitive
> anyway. It's just FASA's way... ;-)

"It's just FASA's way"?

Is that something similar to when Steve Irwin (a.k.a. "The Crocodile
Hunter") says, "It's just Nature's way," refering to some animal that
is, or is in the process of dying a gruesome death (i.e. being torn
apart by wild animals, etc.).

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 2
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (2): Sorcery for Conjurors?
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:10:59 -0800
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, the Dark Stranger wrote:

Hmmm...note to self: don't try to start a thread on an ML while comming
down with a nasty flu bug.

> >This lead to the question: Could a Conjuror with Sorcery
> >skill give their Ally sorcery ability and use their karma/time to learn
> >spells spell for them, even if they can't cast spells themselves?
>
> Hmmmm...interesting. I don't think it's ever really been touched
> upon before, since there are very few Conjurors around. Sort of
> like mundane, unagumented humans; on TK they can be great to play,
> but in a real SR game with combat, they aren't built to survive
> except unless played by truely exceptional players.

I guess that depends on how combat-heavy / role-playing-deficient the
campaign is. Of note, though, since a Conjuring Adept doesn't spend
karma on spells (unless for an Ally) then they tend to have more karma
lying around for other things. (In other words they aren't subjugated
to being the most massively unskilled people in the group as the
campaign progresses and everybody else has karma to spend on things
other than magic. Also, by being adepts, they don't necessarily have to
be the most wimpy members of the group either by being able to set other
priorities higher during character creation.

> However, my inclination, based upon all that _I_ know and my
> interpretations of the rules, are that sure, a Conjuror could leard
> a Sorcery spell so that it could be taught/learnt by an ally spirit.

In the absence of contrary opinions, I am libel to start putting a
character like this together. And I wouldn't be adverse to anyone else
using one either (although I would strongly encourage originality).

> Perhaps a caveat could be imposed that since the Conjuror doesn't
> have real-world experience with Sorcery, the ally spirit would only
> get the skill initially at say, half the Conjuror's skill. But I
> see no reason, mechanics or theory-wise, why the basic concept isn't
> sound.

Hmmmn. Well, Since it says "Sorcery Skill" and provides no other
mechanics, then I would say that there is no reason to monkey with it
any further, if someone wanted to implement it in their game. But then,
since this is ShadowTk, then actual skill levels, etc. aren't really
_that_ important.

> >Obviously, this makes Conjurors (or at least Conjurors with Allies) much
> >more powerful / versatile / useful than if they couldn't.
>
> Perhaps the best reason *for* it.

Well, I wasn't about to say that.... >>insert innocent look here<<

It does makes Shamanic Conjuring adepts a not completely silly
idea any more.

> >I can also
> >understand the basis of the argument that if you can't actually wield
> >the magic, how are you supposed to have the spirit learn the spell?
>
> Part of that can be answered by the fact that the astral plane, a
> plane of magical energy, is the native homeland for any spirit.
> They understand astral energies instinctively.

That is a good counterpoint. A _human_ trying to teach a spirit about
how to wield magic is kind of like trying to teach a fish how to swim.

> >However, at first glance (and without FASA declaring "Thou shalt
not..."
> >in the upcomming _MitS_) it doesn't seem totally unreasonable.
>
> Agreed. And again, with the knowledge that I have, I wouldn't
> expect to see MitS answer this question. At least as far as my
> memory serves me.

*Grumble*

Well, it does leave it up to individual GM's to decide for themselves,
but it would be nicer to have some definitive say one way or another.

> >nice.) It would also definitely make the Conjuror much more careful
> >with their spirits. (Would you really wish to treat your main means of
> >fire-support like dirt only to have them start trying to get away from
> >you--or rid of you--at their earliest convenience?)

> Key factor. The sort of thing that will be abused my munchkins, but
> a major limiting factor for anyone with a modicum of role-playing.

Well story-telling is what this forum is all about. So, I would be less
afraid of abuse around here. But, any GM who ignores the relationship
aspect between a mage and spirits is not keeping up with their duty to
enforce the role-playing environment. Its rather similar to any other
contact, accept that mages can actually _force_ a spirit to do what they
wish. (Which should lead to a certain ammount of resentment
eventually.)

> And of course, if it is, it probably won't be 100% definitive
> anyway. It's just FASA's way... ;-)

"It's just FASA's way"?

Is that something similar to when Steve Irwin (a.k.a. "The Crocodile
Hunter") says, "It's just Nature's way," refering to some animal that
is, or is in the process of dying a gruesome death (i.e. being torn
apart by wild animals, etc.).

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 3
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (2): Sorcery for Conjurors?
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:13:56 -0800 (PST)
Now that there seems to be consensus developing on Discussion Bait
#1....

Round 2.

Note I put this second, because it is much more...um...flamable than the
previous.

So, okay, I'll admit it. I was in the arcade and watching some guys
play a fighting game called JoJo's Venture (I don't play fighting games
mind you--spending a quarter to watch myself get trounced in nothing
flat while I madly mash keys and mangle joysticks just isn't fulfilling
in my book) and I thought to myself, "Now there's an interesting idea
for an STk character."

The characters in the game some here may be familiar with (and fewer the
Japanese comic and animation that it is based on) are what are known as
"Stand users." Each of them has the ablity to manifest what is called a
"Stand" which possesses some unique abilities. Some of these even take
on the form of an independent entity. The characters themselves don't
actually have any special powers, other than the ability to command
their Stand to use it's abilities on their behalf.

If I was going to try to make something like that "by the book" in SR,
the solution seemed pretty obvious: a conjuring aspected magician (read
conjuring adept in SR2) with an allied spirit who acts as the Stand.
That leads to an interesting question though (which may be effected by
the upcomming _Magic in the Shadows_).

So, at least as of Grimoire II, a magician with both Conjuring and
Sorcery could summon an Allied Spirit, and it could receive the ability
to use Sorcery equal to the level "of the magician's sorcery _skill_."
(my emphasis) They could later spend the karma and time as for learning
a spell but do it in such a way that spell would then be learned by the
Ally for their use, and not the summoner. Aha! A great way to give the
Ally Stand-like abilities. *Whoa!* Wait a sec. But, the question
becomes, what happens if the character is just a Conjuror? They can't
_use_ Sorcery. They can learn the academics and posses the Sorcery
skill, but you just aren't capable of wielding magic in such a way as to
cast a spell. (I suppose, like a [Physical] Adept, one could learn it
for practical purposes such as in case they are ever yanked into the
astral plane or for analysis of spell signatures while astrally
perceiving.) This lead to the question: Could a Conjuror with Sorcery
skill give their Ally sorcery ability and use their karma/time to learn
spells spell for them, even if they can't cast spells themselves?

Obviously, this makes Conjurors (or at least Conjurors with Allies) much
more powerful / versatile / useful than if they couldn't. I can also
understand the basis of the argument that if you can't actually wield
the magic, how are you supposed to have the spirit learn the spell?

However, at first glance (and without FASA declaring "Thou shalt not..."
in the upcomming _MitS_) it doesn't seem totally unreasonable. Allies
tend to be weaker than their summoners, nor should the Power-focus
ability of spirits work in reverse, so it wouldn't turn a Conjuror into
the equivalent of a full-magician, by any stretch. (I suppose having an
ally provide you with spell-defence, which you lacked before would be
nice.) It would also definitely make the Conjuror much more careful
with their spirits. (Would you really wish to treat your main means of
fire-support like dirt only to have them start trying to get away from
you--or rid of you--at their earliest convenience?) This also gives Joe
Summoner a new and potentially limitless vacuum with which to suck up
that karma they had lying around, "learning" spells for their ally to
make them more and more useful (and yet another reason to be nice to
them!).

What do people think about this?

My meta-worry here is that _Magic in the Shadows_ will make the whole
question moot. I would like to know if there are there any players here
that use Conjuring Adepts, and if so, have any of them tried this or
not.

--Catch you later

Jeff
Message no. 4
From: Mark L. Neidengard mneideng@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (2): Sorcery for Conjurors?
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:37:57 -0800 (PST)
According to Mach:
>So, at least as of Grimoire II, a magician with both Conjuring and
>Sorcery could summon an Allied Spirit, and it could receive the ability
>to use Sorcery equal to the level "of the magician's sorcery _skill_."
>(my emphasis) They could later spend the karma and time as for learning
>a spell but do it in such a way that spell would then be learned by the
>Ally for their use, and not the summoner. Aha! A great way to give the
>Ally Stand-like abilities. *Whoa!* Wait a sec. But, the question
>becomes, what happens if the character is just a Conjuror? They can't
>_use_ Sorcery. They can learn the academics and posses the Sorcery
>skill, but you just aren't capable of wielding magic in such a way as to
>cast a spell. (I suppose, like a [Physical] Adept, one could learn it
>for practical purposes such as in case they are ever yanked into the
>astral plane or for analysis of spell signatures while astrally
>perceiving.) This lead to the question: Could a Conjuror with Sorcery
>skill give their Ally sorcery ability and use their karma/time to learn
>spells spell for them, even if they can't cast spells themselves?
>
>Obviously, this makes Conjurors (or at least Conjurors with Allies) much
>more powerful / versatile / useful than if they couldn't. I can also
>understand the basis of the argument that if you can't actually wield
>the magic, how are you supposed to have the spirit learn the spell?

I can't see any reason why a Conjuring Adept with Sorcery couldn't use that
skill to teach their Ally spells. It's a major drain on Karma no matter who
learns the spell (which is part of the balance on mages) and having an Ally
cast is strictly inferior in most cases to casting yourself, so it doesn't
seem to be unbalanced...I like it. ^_^

>My meta-worry here is that _Magic in the Shadows_ will make the whole
>question moot. I would like to know if there are there any players here
>that use Conjuring Adepts, and if so, have any of them tried this or
>not.

Frankly, I would be inclined to ignore the sourcebooks until they're actually
out - we'll jump off that bridge when we come to it.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 5
From: the Dark Stranger darkstranger@*******.net
Subject: Discussion Bait (2): Sorcery for Conjurors?
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:37:08 -0500
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:13:56 -0800 (PST) Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> wrote:
>That leads to an interesting question though (which may be effected by
>the upcomming _Magic in the Shadows_).

Let me rack my brain...MitS I think should be at the publishers 'round about now. So I
think it's due late April, early May now. I don't know if FASA updated it's web page to
reflect new dates, I pulled this from a posting by Randall Bills (FASAinfo) on AOL.

>perceiving.) This lead to the question: Could a Conjuror with Sorcery
>skill give their Ally sorcery ability and use their karma/time to learn
>spells spell for them, even if they can't cast spells themselves?

Hmmmm...interesting. I don't think it's ever really been touched upon before, since there
are very few Conjurors around. Sort of like mundane, unagumented humans; on TK they can
be great to play, but in a real SR game with combat, they aren't built to survive except
unless played by truely exceptional players.

However, my inclination, based upon all that _I_ know and my interpretations of the rules,
are that sure, a Conjuror could leard a Sorcery spell so that it could be taught/learnt by
an ally spirit.

Perhaps a caveat could be imposed that since the Conjuror doesn't have real-world
experience with Sorcery, the ally spirit would only get the skill initially at say, half
the Conjuror's skill. But I see no reason, mechanics or theory-wise, why the basic
concept isn't sound.

>Obviously, this makes Conjurors (or at least Conjurors with Allies) much
>more powerful / versatile / useful than if they couldn't.

Perhaps the best reason *for* it. Conjurors are badly overlooked in my experience. They
are a bit like magical riggers, using spirits/drones to do their dirty-work for them. It
can be difficult for beginners or those with less than 100% solid grasp of the rules to
either play or GM those kinds of characters. But making the "drones" more
powerful and useful would make them more attractive.

I can also
>understand the basis of the argument that if you can't actually wield
>the magic, how are you supposed to have the spirit learn the spell?

Part of that can be answered by the fact that the astral plane, a plane of magical energy,
is the native homeland for any spirit. They understand astral energies instinctively.

>However, at first glance (and without FASA declaring "Thou shalt not..."
>in the upcomming _MitS_) it doesn't seem totally unreasonable.

Agreed. And again, with the knowledge that I have, I wouldn't expect to see MitS answer
this question. At least as far as my memory serves me.

>nice.) It would also definitely make the Conjuror much more careful
>with their spirits. (Would you really wish to treat your main means of
>fire-support like dirt only to have them start trying to get away from
>you--or rid of you--at their earliest convenience?)

Key factor. The sort of thing that will be abused my munchkins, but a major limiting
factor for anyone with a modicum of role-playing.

>My meta-worry here is that _Magic in the Shadows_ will make the whole
>question moot.

As I said, I don't expect MitS to make a clear and defined statement on this. My memory
could be fading, it's been a while, but I doubt this will be answered.

And of course, if it is, it probably won't be 100% definitive anyway. It's just FASA's
way... ;-)

Erik J.
Message no. 6
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (2): Sorcery for Conjurors?
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:13:56 -0800 (PST)
Now that there seems to be consensus developing on Discussion Bait
#1....

Round 2.

Note I put this second, because it is much more...um...flamable than the
previous.

So, okay, I'll admit it. I was in the arcade and watching some guys
play a fighting game called JoJo's Venture (I don't play fighting games
mind you--spending a quarter to watch myself get trounced in nothing
flat while I madly mash keys and mangle joysticks just isn't fulfilling
in my book) and I thought to myself, "Now there's an interesting idea
for an STk character."

The characters in the game some here may be familiar with (and fewer the
Japanese comic and animation that it is based on) are what are known as
"Stand users." Each of them has the ablity to manifest what is called a
"Stand" which possesses some unique abilities. Some of these even take
on the form of an independent entity. The characters themselves don't
actually have any special powers, other than the ability to command
their Stand to use it's abilities on their behalf.

If I was going to try to make something like that "by the book" in SR,
the solution seemed pretty obvious: a conjuring aspected magician (read
conjuring adept in SR2) with an allied spirit who acts as the Stand.
That leads to an interesting question though (which may be effected by
the upcomming _Magic in the Shadows_).

So, at least as of Grimoire II, a magician with both Conjuring and
Sorcery could summon an Allied Spirit, and it could receive the ability
to use Sorcery equal to the level "of the magician's sorcery _skill_."
(my emphasis) They could later spend the karma and time as for learning
a spell but do it in such a way that spell would then be learned by the
Ally for their use, and not the summoner. Aha! A great way to give the
Ally Stand-like abilities. *Whoa!* Wait a sec. But, the question
becomes, what happens if the character is just a Conjuror? They can't
_use_ Sorcery. They can learn the academics and posses the Sorcery
skill, but you just aren't capable of wielding magic in such a way as to
cast a spell. (I suppose, like a [Physical] Adept, one could learn it
for practical purposes such as in case they are ever yanked into the
astral plane or for analysis of spell signatures while astrally
perceiving.) This lead to the question: Could a Conjuror with Sorcery
skill give their Ally sorcery ability and use their karma/time to learn
spells spell for them, even if they can't cast spells themselves?

Obviously, this makes Conjurors (or at least Conjurors with Allies) much
more powerful / versatile / useful than if they couldn't. I can also
understand the basis of the argument that if you can't actually wield
the magic, how are you supposed to have the spirit learn the spell?

However, at first glance (and without FASA declaring "Thou shalt not..."
in the upcomming _MitS_) it doesn't seem totally unreasonable. Allies
tend to be weaker than their summoners, nor should the Power-focus
ability of spirits work in reverse, so it wouldn't turn a Conjuror into
the equivalent of a full-magician, by any stretch. (I suppose having an
ally provide you with spell-defence, which you lacked before would be
nice.) It would also definitely make the Conjuror much more careful
with their spirits. (Would you really wish to treat your main means of
fire-support like dirt only to have them start trying to get away from
you--or rid of you--at their earliest convenience?) This also gives Joe
Summoner a new and potentially limitless vacuum with which to suck up
that karma they had lying around, "learning" spells for their ally to
make them more and more useful (and yet another reason to be nice to
them!).

What do people think about this?

My meta-worry here is that _Magic in the Shadows_ will make the whole
question moot. I would like to know if there are there any players here
that use Conjuring Adepts, and if so, have any of them tried this or
not.

--Catch you later

Jeff
Message no. 7
From: Mark L. Neidengard mneideng@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Discussion Bait (2): Sorcery for Conjurors?
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:37:57 -0800 (PST)
According to Mach:
>So, at least as of Grimoire II, a magician with both Conjuring and
>Sorcery could summon an Allied Spirit, and it could receive the ability
>to use Sorcery equal to the level "of the magician's sorcery _skill_."
>(my emphasis) They could later spend the karma and time as for learning
>a spell but do it in such a way that spell would then be learned by the
>Ally for their use, and not the summoner. Aha! A great way to give the
>Ally Stand-like abilities. *Whoa!* Wait a sec. But, the question
>becomes, what happens if the character is just a Conjuror? They can't
>_use_ Sorcery. They can learn the academics and posses the Sorcery
>skill, but you just aren't capable of wielding magic in such a way as to
>cast a spell. (I suppose, like a [Physical] Adept, one could learn it
>for practical purposes such as in case they are ever yanked into the
>astral plane or for analysis of spell signatures while astrally
>perceiving.) This lead to the question: Could a Conjuror with Sorcery
>skill give their Ally sorcery ability and use their karma/time to learn
>spells spell for them, even if they can't cast spells themselves?
>
>Obviously, this makes Conjurors (or at least Conjurors with Allies) much
>more powerful / versatile / useful than if they couldn't. I can also
>understand the basis of the argument that if you can't actually wield
>the magic, how are you supposed to have the spirit learn the spell?

I can't see any reason why a Conjuring Adept with Sorcery couldn't use that
skill to teach their Ally spells. It's a major drain on Karma no matter who
learns the spell (which is part of the balance on mages) and having an Ally
cast is strictly inferior in most cases to casting yourself, so it doesn't
seem to be unbalanced...I like it. ^_^

>My meta-worry here is that _Magic in the Shadows_ will make the whole
>question moot. I would like to know if there are there any players here
>that use Conjuring Adepts, and if so, have any of them tried this or
>not.

Frankly, I would be inclined to ignore the sourcebooks until they're actually
out - we'll jump off that bridge when we come to it.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 8
From: the Dark Stranger darkstranger@*******.net
Subject: Discussion Bait (2): Sorcery for Conjurors?
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:37:08 -0500
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:13:56 -0800 (PST) Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu> wrote:
>That leads to an interesting question though (which may be effected by
>the upcomming _Magic in the Shadows_).

Let me rack my brain...MitS I think should be at the publishers 'round about now. So I
think it's due late April, early May now. I don't know if FASA updated it's web page to
reflect new dates, I pulled this from a posting by Randall Bills (FASAinfo) on AOL.

>perceiving.) This lead to the question: Could a Conjuror with Sorcery
>skill give their Ally sorcery ability and use their karma/time to learn
>spells spell for them, even if they can't cast spells themselves?

Hmmmm...interesting. I don't think it's ever really been touched upon before, since there
are very few Conjurors around. Sort of like mundane, unagumented humans; on TK they can
be great to play, but in a real SR game with combat, they aren't built to survive except
unless played by truely exceptional players.

However, my inclination, based upon all that _I_ know and my interpretations of the rules,
are that sure, a Conjuror could leard a Sorcery spell so that it could be taught/learnt by
an ally spirit.

Perhaps a caveat could be imposed that since the Conjuror doesn't have real-world
experience with Sorcery, the ally spirit would only get the skill initially at say, half
the Conjuror's skill. But I see no reason, mechanics or theory-wise, why the basic
concept isn't sound.

>Obviously, this makes Conjurors (or at least Conjurors with Allies) much
>more powerful / versatile / useful than if they couldn't.

Perhaps the best reason *for* it. Conjurors are badly overlooked in my experience. They
are a bit like magical riggers, using spirits/drones to do their dirty-work for them. It
can be difficult for beginners or those with less than 100% solid grasp of the rules to
either play or GM those kinds of characters. But making the "drones" more
powerful and useful would make them more attractive.

I can also
>understand the basis of the argument that if you can't actually wield
>the magic, how are you supposed to have the spirit learn the spell?

Part of that can be answered by the fact that the astral plane, a plane of magical energy,
is the native homeland for any spirit. They understand astral energies instinctively.

>However, at first glance (and without FASA declaring "Thou shalt not..."
>in the upcomming _MitS_) it doesn't seem totally unreasonable.

Agreed. And again, with the knowledge that I have, I wouldn't expect to see MitS answer
this question. At least as far as my memory serves me.

>nice.) It would also definitely make the Conjuror much more careful
>with their spirits. (Would you really wish to treat your main means of
>fire-support like dirt only to have them start trying to get away from
>you--or rid of you--at their earliest convenience?)

Key factor. The sort of thing that will be abused my munchkins, but a major limiting
factor for anyone with a modicum of role-playing.

>My meta-worry here is that _Magic in the Shadows_ will make the whole
>question moot.

As I said, I don't expect MitS to make a clear and defined statement on this. My memory
could be fading, it's been a while, but I doubt this will be answered.

And of course, if it is, it probably won't be 100% definitive anyway. It's just FASA's
way... ;-)

Erik J.

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!