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Message no. 1
From: Nightblade <wgreason@*****.ocis.temple.edu>
Subject: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:27:49 -0400 (EDT)
> IMHO you would have to be in astral form to be summoned... and spirits
> would have to be in a similarly vulnerable state... sort of the equivalent
> of going swimming and getting dragged away by the undertow (my twisted mind
> holds images of mother elementals saying "don't go out to far son, the
> conjurors'll get you!"...)


Curiosity question: How did you come to the conclusion that a human
would have to be in astral form to be summoned? Does that mean that
elementals and spirits are merely astral components of physical forms on
their metaplanes?


Real question: This lays an awesome foundation for a plot twist for me
... any suggestions on what an Elemental home plane would look like?
Previously used material is always appreciated. :)

> > BTW, what does OTOH
mean? >


"On the other hand" I took it to be.


peace
Dave
Message no. 2
From: "Kevin Prier" <PRIER@*******.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:28:07 PDT
> Curiosity question: How did you come to the conclusion that a human
> would have to be in astral form to be summoned? Does that mean that
> elementals and spirits are merely astral components of physical forms on
> their metaplanes?

I would say that ia a reasonable conclusion, if you assume our space
(metaplane of ?) is equal to the other metaplanes, all connected by
astral space. Although our version of 'physical form' and their's
may vary quite a bit, aspects of our space would certainly be
present in their's, just as we have aspects of fire, water, etc. on
our plane.

As to the original question of whether spirits could use conjuring,
the only reference I could find was under Designing the Ally, Skills
(Grimoire, 1st. Ed. p84): "As noted, an Ally receives Sorcery Skill
equal to its creator's at the time of conjuring. Other non-magical
skill may also be purchased at that time."

I took this to mean that they could never learn other magical skills,
and if Allies can't, I can't imagine how another type of spirit could
learn.

Putting all of that together, we get:
1. Spirits are astral forms summoned while astrally projecting from
their physical bodies from their metaplanes. This explains why non-
initiates can conjure, since the spirits are in astral and not on a
metaplane.

2. Spirits can manifest on our plane just as initiates can manifest
on metaplanes.

3. On the metaplanes, there are equivalents of mundanes, and
magicians who can astrally project and end up being conjured.

4. (Meta)human magicians run the risk of being conjured when they are
in astral space by these other-planar magicians.

5. Conjured spirits cannot themselves conjure, although they may be
able to on their home plane. Likewise, (Meta)human magicians can't
conjure on metaplanes or in astral space.

Questions: Are some so-called Free Spirits actually other-planar
initiates on an astral quest? Is this the reason for the time limits
on how long conjured spirit will/can hang around? If a magician ends
up being conjured to a metaplane or is on an astral quest and then
gets banished, is he unable to astrally project for a month minus
(Essence days)? Why do I have the feeling I just openned up a huge
can of worms here?

Flame away,
Kevin (aka Basilisk)
Message no. 3
From: Brian Rogers <rogers@****.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:34:39 -0500
> Curiosity question: How did you come to the conclusion that a human
> would have to be in astral form to be summoned? Does that mean that
> elementals and spirits are merely astral components of physical forms on
> their metaplanes?

No, but the other astral planes can exist on THIS plane, where I do not
think the element of MAN (despite the stupid email fodder that someone
wrote years ago that still finds it way to my inbox 5 time a year) exists
and thusly wouldnt be able to materialize (be summoned) on another plane of
existance. Man's astral form, however, should be able to roam those areas
as magic exists on all planes.

> Real question: This lays an awesome foundation for a plot twist for me
> ... any suggestions on what an Elemental home plane would look like?
> Previously used material is always appreciated. :)

For astral quests, it is sculpted by the questing mage's conceptions of
that plane. Some of my astral quests end up just being really shitty
paper chases in a setting of some downtown area with different buildings for
different things where I am forced to walk back and forth from building to
building being told that I dont have the proper paper work and I need
to go back to building 7 and have secretary 14 sign in slot 21 with an
extra stroke-30 scratched out to say "pizza oven" where it says Autoclave.
Message no. 4
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark Lafarga Neidengard)
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:37:10 -0700 (PDT)
According to Kevin Prier:
>> Curiosity question: How did you come to the conclusion that a human
>> would have to be in astral form to be summoned? Does that mean that
>> elementals and spirits are merely astral components of physical forms on
>> their metaplanes?
>
>I would say that ia a reasonable conclusion, if you assume our space
>(metaplane of ?) is equal to the other metaplanes, all connected by
>astral space. Although our version of 'physical form' and their's
>may vary quite a bit, aspects of our space would certainly be
>present in their's, just as we have aspects of fire, water, etc. on
>our plane.

I don't think this is the only conclusion that can be drawn; I prefer to say
that when you Summon a being, you actually get the being itself for all intents
and purposes.

>As to the original question of whether spirits could use conjuring,
>the only reference I could find was under Designing the Ally, Skills
>(Grimoire, 1st. Ed. p84): "As noted, an Ally receives Sorcery Skill
>equal to its creator's at the time of conjuring. Other non-magical
>skill may also be purchased at that time."
>
>I took this to mean that they could never learn other magical skills,
>and if Allies can't, I can't imagine how another type of spirit could
>learn.

I should think that the Ally should be able to accumulate Karma and improve
its magical skills in exactly the same way as a normal mortal spellcaster.
In addition, the Free Spirit has a chance of gaining new Powers every time
it increases its Force by cashing in Spirit Energy.

>Putting all of that together, we get:
>1. Spirits are astral forms summoned while astrally projecting from
>their physical bodies from their metaplanes. This explains why non-
>initiates can conjure, since the spirits are in astral and not on a
>metaplane.

I don't quite buy it. For one thing, it's not possible to Conjure a Free
Spirit directy anyway. The best you can do is try to get it to appear by
speaking its True Name (if you can obtain it) and hope it shows up.

>2. Spirits can manifest on our plane just as initiates can manifest
>on metaplanes.

In addition, I allow for the possibility of "purely" spiritual beings whose
"physical form" can travel through the Astral.

>3. On the metaplanes, there are equivalents of mundanes, and
>magicians who can astrally project and end up being conjured.

Again, you can't conjure directly from the Metaplanes. You can only Conjure
from your own plane and from the Elements.

>4. (Meta)human magicians run the risk of being conjured when they are
>in astral space by these other-planar magicians.

I don't believe in that...

>5. Conjured spirits cannot themselves conjure, although they may be
>able to on their home plane. Likewise, (Meta)human magicians can't
>conjure on metaplanes or in astral space.

I`ll say that mages can only Conjure on their native plane, and leave it at
that.

>Questions: Are some so-called Free Spirits actually other-planar
>initiates on an astral quest?

Not unless all being on the metaplanes are somehow exempt from the Essence-
based Astral limits....Free Spirits can hang around indefinitely. What I
actually want to say now is that the true "Free Spirits" hold that status
partially by having a "physical form" that can leave its native plane.
Presumably there are other residents of that plane who cannot accomplish that
trick (the equivalent of a mortal mage).

>Is this the reason for the time limits
>on how long conjured spirit will/can hang around? If a magician ends
>up being conjured to a metaplane or is on an astral quest and then
>gets banished, is he unable to astrally project for a month minus
>(Essence days)? Why do I have the feeling I just openned up a huge
>can of worms here?

No idea. =)
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 5
From: justinf@****.caltech.edu (Justin Fang)
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:10:52 -0700 (PDT)
Mark Lafarga Neidengard wrote:

>I should think that the Ally should be able to accumulate Karma and improve
>its magical skills in exactly the same way as a normal mortal spellcaster.

While the ally is still bound to it's summoner, the only way it can improve
skills (normal or magical), gain new spells, or increase stats is for the
summoner to spend karma and perform a ritual of change.

If it goes free then presumably it can spend it's own karma to do so.

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 6
From: Nightblade <wgreason@*****.ocis.temple.edu>
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:10:55 -0400 (EDT)
> >astral space. Although our version of 'physical form' and their's
> >may vary quite a bit, aspects of our space would certainly be
> >present in their's, just as we have aspects of fire, water, etc. on
> >our plane.


Any examples of how elementals and spirits appear in their "natural"
environments ... I have my own ideas, but I want to contrast them against
other people's before I get flamed for them.


>
> I don't think this is the only conclusion that can be drawn; I prefer to say
> that when you Summon a being, you actually get the being itself for all intents
> and purposes.


which again leads to interesting possibilities for human abduction.


>
> >As to the original question of whether spirits could use conjuring,
> >the only reference I could find was under Designing the Ally, Skills
> >(Grimoire, 1st. Ed. p84): "As noted, an Ally receives Sorcery Skill
> >equal to its creator's at the time of conjuring. Other non-magical
> >skill may also be purchased at that time."


Phraseology in this text example is less than clear. Unfortunately. I
still think that some Free Spirits can conjure. (of course, i have a
vested interest, but ... :) )


> >
> >I took this to mean that they could never learn other magical skills,
> >and if Allies can't, I can't imagine how another type of spirit could
> >learn.
>
> I should think that the Ally should be able to accumulate Karma and improve
> its magical skills in exactly the same way as a normal mortal spellcaster.
> In addition, the Free Spirit has a chance of gaining new Powers every time
> it increases its Force by cashing in Spirit Energy.


I agree with the second part.


>
> >2. Spirits can manifest on our plane just as initiates can manifest
> >on metaplanes.
>
> In addition, I allow for the possibility of "purely" spiritual beings whose
> "physical form" can travel through the Astral.


Say, an Astral Ally with no physical form???


>
> >3. On the metaplanes, there are equivalents of mundanes, and
> >magicians who can astrally project and end up being conjured.
>
> Again, you can't conjure directly from the Metaplanes. You can only Conjure
> from your own plane and from the Elements.


Confused on the second portion ... how do shamans conjure spirits if they
don't get them from the Metaplanes.


>
> >4. (Meta)human magicians run the risk of being conjured when they are
> >in astral space by these other-planar magicians.
>
> I don't believe in that...


What makes humans exempt from being abducted? I'd really love it if
metaplanar mages/shamans could conjure humans (physical and astral) to
the respective metaplane. {again a vested plot interest}



> I`ll say that mages can only Conjure on their native plane, and leave
it at > that.


That sounds reasonable.


>
> >Questions: Are some so-called Free Spirits actually other-planar
> >initiates on an astral quest?
>
> Not unless all being on the metaplanes are somehow exempt from the Essence-
> based Astral limits....Free Spirits can hang around indefinitely. What I
> actually want to say now is that the true "Free Spirits" hold that status
> partially by having a "physical form" that can leave its native plane.
> Presumably there are other residents of that plane who cannot accomplish that
> trick (the equivalent of a mortal mage).
This second point sounds really solid.


> >(Essence days)? Why do I have the feeling I just openned up a huge
> >can of worms here?

"Banishing a human" ... I LOVE it! ...


Thinking on this, I 'm thinking that only initiated mages/shamans (of
whatever plane) can be conjured to another plane. Although by combining
the Astral Gateway power, anybody could be taken.


wow. things just got a whole lot hairier for my plot. :( :)

peace
Dave
Message no. 7
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark Lafarga Neidengard)
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:55:23 -0700 (PDT)
According to Justin Fang:
>Mark Lafarga Neidengard wrote:
>
>>I should think that the Ally should be able to accumulate Karma and improve
>>its magical skills in exactly the same way as a normal mortal spellcaster.
>
>While the ally is still bound to it's summoner, the only way it can improve
>skills (normal or magical), gain new spells, or increase stats is for the
>summoner to spend karma and perform a ritual of change.
>
>If it goes free then presumably it can spend it's own karma to do so.

You're right; I misspoke.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 8
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark Lafarga Neidengard)
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:58:48 -0700 (PDT)
According to Nightblade:
>> Again, you can't conjure directly from the Metaplanes. You can only Conjure
>> from your own plane and from the Elements.
>
>Confused on the second portion ... how do shamans conjure spirits if they
>don't get them from the Metaplanes.

I interpret the game to mean that the Spirit is a manifestation of the mana
resident in the Domain it's summoned from.

>> >4. (Meta)human magicians run the risk of being conjured when they are
>> >in astral space by these other-planar magicians.
>>
>> I don't believe in that...
>
>What makes humans exempt from being abducted? I'd really love it if
>metaplanar mages/shamans could conjure humans (physical and astral) to
>the respective metaplane. {again a vested plot interest}

Well, if people can't directly conjure Free Spirits (who are said explicitly
to be "residents" of other metaplanes), then other beings probably shouldn't
be able to conjure humans. IMHO of course.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 9
From: "Kevin Prier" <PRIER@*******.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:59:29 PDT
So if I get M.N. right, Shamans don't conjure from a metaplane, they
just summon up the mana from the local Domain they are in, mana which
is native to this plane. But Mages conjure from the Elemental
metaplanes. Are these elementals 'residents' of the plane, or just
pieces of mana from the planes?

It's true you can't conjure a Free Spirit, but what about Allies?
They also come from metaplanes and can be conjured. And if an
elemental or Nature Spirit goes free, it suddenly has a metaplane of
origin (fine for elementals, but it doesn't fit with what M.N. says
about spirits).

I guess it all depends on how sentient you feel the other planes are.
Are they just energy, shaped by the will and fantasy of humans, or
are they true parallel planes, with equivalent inhabitants to our?
If they are just energy (or whatever), then all Free Spirits were
once conjured by humans, who gave them their 'personalities'. This
does not necessarily have to be a conscious summoning, some could
have been formed by a collective desire or fantasy (historic ghosts
slowly taking form as more and more people believe in them, for
example). That would also mean that insects and Horrors are simply
manifestations of the darker aspects of humanity. Allies are then
formless bits of mana from some metaplane molded into the image the
magician has formulated.

On the other hand, if they are true parallel planes, then Free
Spirits and even elementals and Nature spirits would be residents of
varying degrees of power of their respective planes. In this case,
creating an Ally is more like making a Personal Ad ("Mage seeks
spirit with fiery personality and cat shape for late night strolls
through AzTech ventilation systems." Ah, there's someone who fits
the description. Poof). Allies may be sentient in their own right,
then, and elementals, etc. may be equivalent to mundanes or animals.
This also makes insects, etc. a very nasty concept.

Oh, and the part about some Free Spirits being otherplanar initiates
on an astral quest: They wouldn't be here for long, just passing
through, but to the average mortal, they would look like Free Spirits.

Maybe there's another explanation that I'm missing.

Kevin
Message no. 10
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark Lafarga Neidengard)
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
According to Kevin Prier:
>
>So if I get M.N. right, Shamans don't conjure from a metaplane, they
>just summon up the mana from the local Domain they are in, mana which
>is native to this plane. But Mages conjure from the Elemental
>metaplanes. Are these elementals 'residents' of the plane, or just
>pieces of mana from the planes?

I think that the Elemental Planes have a special role in the "multiverse",
since the physical manifestiation of the natural forces they embody is
visible just about everywhere. That is, the metaplanes (including the
prime material) have a constant "conduit" open to the elemental planes. In
that sense, I'd say that, yes, the elementals a mage "conjures" are bits of
mana from the appropriate element with a bit of personality acquired from
the environment.

>It's true you can't conjure a Free Spirit, but what about Allies?
>They also come from metaplanes and can be conjured. And if an
>elemental or Nature Spirit goes free, it suddenly has a metaplane of
>origin (fine for elementals, but it doesn't fit with what M.N. says
>about spirits).

I need to reread the Allies section before commenting on this one. If, as I
seem to remember, the ceremony of creating an Ally actually literally "creates"
the Ally from nothing (rather than summoning it from somewhere), one might
say that the "native plane" of the Ally thus created is whereever it was
created. I need to reread things though to see if this is coherent or not.

>I guess it all depends on how sentient you feel the other planes are.
> Are they just energy, shaped by the will and fantasy of humans, or
>are they true parallel planes, with equivalent inhabitants to our?
>If they are just energy (or whatever), then all Free Spirits were
>once conjured by humans, who gave them their 'personalities'. This
>does not necessarily have to be a conscious summoning, some could
>have been formed by a collective desire or fantasy (historic ghosts
>slowly taking form as more and more people believe in them, for
>example). That would also mean that insects and Horrors are simply
>manifestations of the darker aspects of humanity. Allies are then
>formless bits of mana from some metaplane molded into the image the
>magician has formulated.

World views with either interpretation are possible. For the sort of "gung-ho"
flavor embodied by the main canon (and in turn by this forum) I favor the
metaplanes as truly independent, parallel planes interpretation. Under other
world views, I could see the "mirror of the unconscious" interpretation...

>On the other hand, if they are true parallel planes, then Free
>Spirits and even elementals and Nature spirits would be residents of
>varying degrees of power of their respective planes. In this case,
>creating an Ally is more like making a Personal Ad ("Mage seeks
>spirit with fiery personality and cat shape for late night strolls
>through AzTech ventilation systems." Ah, there's someone who fits
>the description. Poof). Allies may be sentient in their own right,
>then, and elementals, etc. may be equivalent to mundanes or animals.
>This also makes insects, etc. a very nasty concept.
>
>Oh, and the part about some Free Spirits being otherplanar initiates
>on an astral quest: They wouldn't be here for long, just passing
>through, but to the average mortal, they would look like Free Spirits.

Except that they can actually interact with mortal affairs on a mortal
timescale. Nothing I've seen about Astral Quests suggests that they should
"feel" years or decades long to the quester...
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 11
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:19:20 PDT
A few points:

You CAN attempt to conjure a Free Spirit, however, you need it's true
name. IT isn't actually CONJURING, but you bind it.

Spirits that you HAVE conjured can go free. So they probably are from
a metaplane or sompthing.
Message no. 12
From: Brian Rogers <rogers@****.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 21:28:46 -0500
Can I have some of what you are smoking?

> A few points:
>
> You CAN attempt to conjure a Free Spirit, however, you need it's true
> name. IT isn't actually CONJURING, but you bind it.
>
> Spirits that you HAVE conjured can go free. So they probably are from
> a metaplane or sompthing.
Message no. 13
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re: Elementals, Spirits, and Metaplanar Geography
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 19:51:01 EST
<snip>
Dave wrote...


%Real question: This lays an awesome foundation for a plot twist for me
%... any suggestions on what an Elemental home plane would look like?
%Previously used material is always appreciated. :)

use material for other games, ad&d and the now defunct dark conspiracy provide
info on other planes, especially dark conspiracy as ad&d's version is a bit
childish.[and poorly designed]

Ferri

Further Reading

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