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Message no. 1
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:36:52 MST
Dark Avenger said:

>One thing I have been toying with is to post a speculative conversation
>and summary between a couple of the characters, regarding the information
>that has been turned up regarding their expedition. Does anyone have any
>objection regarding speculation extrapolated from known data, and possible
>ED links to ancient civilisations. I remember a

I do. I don't have a problem with linking to past civilizations (like
Mayans) as such. But I have a lot of objections with Earthdawn links.
Rather than restate my opinions (on the connection between Earthdawn
and Shadowrun) one more time on plot-d, how about you justify why you
need the links to Earthdawn in the first place?

As it stands right now, if you just said you were going to use them
without any justification, I would just on principle say, "I don't
want it in my shared world." *grin* I prefer to keep the two game
worlds separate.


>One further question. For Mike Goldberg I think... Answer privately if
>posting an answer to the list is awkward. During the Thunda period, a
>piece of software was given to a character on the list, Scourge, if I
>recall correctly, an IC breaker - custom built. If I recall correctly
>that character disappeared shortly thereafter. I would appreciate it
>if the player could let me know what happened there, as it will
>influence a couple of things that are going to be happening within the
>FBI "Achilles" plot. Thanks in advance.

Scourge is mine. I will have to do some digging (always dangerous
I've found) to answer this one, since I don't remember exactly what
Scourge found on the behalf of SIGA. I do remember the aftermath
because JICES made an offer (and I was going with the assumption the
purchase happened) on the IC breaker with some significant conditions.
Scourge's person-napping has made it that JICES cannot use the IC
breaker (although through a painful manner they proved that it wasn't
taking in the person-napping). This will be answered more fully off
plot-d as I get a chance. (Not likely in the next 24 hours.)

Later,
Mike
Message no. 2
From: VÆL <ltwiss@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:02:00 +0000
If memory serves correctly, Mike Goldberg wrote:

> Dark Avenger said:
>
> >Does anyone have any objection regarding speculation extrapolated from known
data, and
> >possible ED links to ancient civilisations.
>
> I do. I don't have a problem with linking to past civilizations (like
> Mayans) as such. But I have a lot of objections with Earthdawn links.
> Rather than restate my opinions (on the connection between Earthdawn
> and Shadowrun) one more time on plot-d, how about you justify why you
> need the links to Earthdawn in the first place?

I beleive he did:

> >Also, it goes a little way to explain some of the involved magic
> >used in the historical side of my plot, where Atlantean survivors
> >would have taught some skills to the adopted civilisations and
> >would also have appeared as gods to the locals.

> As it stands right now, if you just said you were going to use them
> without any justification, I would just on principle say, "I don't
> want it in my shared world." *grin* I prefer to keep the two game
> worlds separate.

The worlds _are_ seperate. Pete isn't asking that T'skrang and
Obsidiman run rampant in the plot. He is asking that a simple
'passing observation' be stated concerning the past of the FASA world
known as Shadowrun. (Please see Tk FAQ: In general, any aspect of
the Shadowrun society can be discussed. Rumors, reports, opinions,
etc. about the Shadowrun universe are the subject.)

I noticed your *grin* concerning 'I don't want it in _my_ shared
world' but, I beleive that this is _my_ shared world as well and I
don't mid seeing ED 'links' (and they are just that... links. They
have no tangeble proof other than heresey.)

'While we are at it, I don't want robotics in _my_ shared world.' I'm
sorry, but FASA has written into their sourcebooks robotics and
whether I like it or not it is part of the world; as are: ED Links.


DRAGONHEART SAGA SPOILER ALERT:




































I understand that the novels are not canon, but it might be of
interest to some that Jak Koke has introduced what is called: a
Locus. It seems to be a very powerful source of 'rock' that lies
beneath the earth. The Aztlaneer's are using these Locus' as a
magical power source. For every one that hates ED, take notice...
these just might be Obsidiman Liferocks. (The birth and death place
of most obsidiman. FYI)


Vael.
Message no. 3
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:16:09 -0700
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, [ISO-8859-1] VÆL wrote:

> If memory serves correctly, Mike Goldberg wrote:
>
> > Dark Avenger said:
> >
> > >Does anyone have any objection regarding speculation extrapolated from=

> > >known data, and possible ED links to ancient civilisations.
> >
> > I do. I don't have a problem with linking to past civilizations (=
like
> > Mayans) as such. But I have a lot of objections with Earthdawn li=
nks.
> > Rather than restate my opinions (on the connection between Earthda=
wn
> > and Shadowrun) one more time on plot-d, how about you justify why =
you
> > need the links to Earthdawn in the first place?
>
> I beleive he did:
>
> > >Also, it goes a little way to explain some of the involved magic
> > >used in the historical side of my plot, where Atlantean survivors
> > >would have taught some skills to the adopted civilisations and
> > >would also have appeared as gods to the locals.

How much of this is from EarthDawn material? It has been quite a while
since I read any EarthDawn material, so my details are scetchy.

> The worlds _are_ seperate. Pete isn't asking that T'skrang and
> Obsidiman run rampant in the plot. He is asking that a simple
> 'passing observation' be stated concerning the past of the FASA world
> known as Shadowrun. (Please see Tk FAQ: In general, any aspect of
> the Shadowrun society can be discussed. Rumors, reports, opinions,
> etc. about the Shadowrun universe are the subject.)

I have no real problem with conjecture and observation. It is when people
decide that the conjecture is correct and thereby change the world view,
that problems start to surface. For instance, my character WhiteTyger
happens to believe that he derives his power by being infused with the
power of the White Tiger of the West, from easter mythology. He can stand
on a soapbox and shout it at the top of his lungs, and he may even act in
such a way as to lend credence to the claim, but I am not going to declare
by writer fiat that he is correct in his assumption and that such an
entity actually exists. To do so would require a new element of worldview
(not to mention being more than a tad munchkin).

> I noticed your *grin* concerning 'I don't want it in _my_ shared
> world' but, I beleive that this is _my_ shared world as well and I
> don't mid seeing ED 'links' (and they are just that... links. They
> have no tangeble proof other than heresey.)

Er...don't you mean heres_a_y? I don't think discussion of ED links to SR
is quite enough to be branded a heretic, but then there may be those that
disagree. =)

> 'While we are at it, I don't want robotics in _my_ shared world.' I'm
> sorry, but FASA has written into their sourcebooks robotics and
> whether I like it or not it is part of the world; as are: ED Links.

Well now. I assume this is sarcasm, but to illustrate the point:
Robotics is a part of "our" world, so it is hard to have a big problem
with it apearing in a world set in our future. And the only big extention
from that to cybernetics is the invention of the direct neural interface,
which is currently the subject of feverish research. DNI has the
potential to be the biggest technological revolution since the invention
of the computer, and a lot of groundwork has already been done. I don't
have much of a problem with cyber being in ShadowRun, and with their
worldview, the concept of Essence makes sense (as well as being a
much-needed restraint on power-hungry players and GM's). Shadowrun, set
in the future as a cyberpunk story, that also has magic, would be hard to
tell without cyber.

I have more of a difficulty with EarthDawn making a big impact in the
Shadowrun world for the basic reason that the world styles are so
different. So to speak, the "flavor" of EarthDawn is that of a
high-fantasy, D&D-like world, while ShadowRun is a low-fantasy cyberpunk
world of the near future. When Immortal Elves (tm) pop-up and smite the
evil forces of the Horrors (tm), it seems to me to be missing the point of
the world in which the story is taking place (plus, I have never liked the
concept of using munchkinism to combat munchkinism). This is not to say
that "big" stories shouldn't be undertaken, but the "magic level" of
those
stories should fit within the worldview of ShadowRun--and more importantly
on this list, that of ShadowTk--and not within that of EarthDawn. So,
they say that the Great Ghost Dance occurred, I'll have to live with that.=

But they also say that it cost many lives to see it come to fruition,
which I can appreciate.

High magic, like high technology, can all too easily tempt writers into
making it, and not the characters involved, the focus of the story. As
long as people keep this in mind, I think I shouldn't object strongly.

--My two yen

Jeff

> DRAGONHEART SAGA SPOILER ALERT:

I make some more comments below, but left in the anti-spoiler spacing.

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> I understand that the novels are not canon, but it might be of
> interest to some that Jak Koke has introduced what is called: a
> Locus. It seems to be a very powerful source of 'rock' that lies
> beneath the earth. The Aztlaneer's are using these Locus' as a
> magical power source. For every one that hates ED, take notice...
> these just might be Obsidiman Liferocks. (The birth and death place
> of most obsidiman. FYI)

Tell me this isn't part of DA's story, please. The advent of an inanimate
object that can be used as a source of mana would be so severely
world-altering as to be right-out in my opinion, unless FASA came out and
specifically said: "By the way, we are going to throw out our previous
world view that one needs to have an active mana gene to be able to wield
any kind of magic and say you can use this stone to power stuff. Have
fun, and good luck." Note that when you say power source, I take it that
you don't mean that this stuff, like Orthaculum, is "attuned" to magic and
helps it flow from the caster more easily, but that this stuff somehow
emits magic or magical energy on its own. I was under the impression that
the "Twilight's Soul" was on the order of some sort of really powerful
ritual magic focus, but that on its own, could do nothing. That, while
beyond the current "tech level" of ShadowRun magic, at least seems a
plausible extention of what already exists.
Message no. 4
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:23:17 +0100
In article <Pine.SGI.3.95.970718112937.15722A-100000@******.ugcs.caltech
.edu>, Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU> rambled on endlessly about
Emma/Library and Scourge

>> > >Also, it goes a little way to explain some of the involved magic
>> > >used in the historical side of my plot, where Atlantean survivors
>> > >would have taught some skills to the adopted civilisations and
>> > >would also have appeared as gods to the locals.
>
>How much of this is from EarthDawn material? It has been quite a while
>since I read any EarthDawn material, so my details are scetchy.

The speculative conversation will be using material from Ehran's speech
to the Young Elven Technologists, in which he mentions that survivors
made it to the major continents. I can post the speech for those
interested. It's from one of the SR Modules, I forget which one
immediately, but will find it if requested.

>I have no real problem with conjecture and observation. It is when people
>decide that the conjecture is correct and thereby change the world view,
>that problems start to surface.

Don't worry Jeff, I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of "proving
these links, and the conversation will be very two sided, with some
logic to point to the possibilities of a previous civilisation of great
power, and the other side logically denying it.

>such a way as to lend credence to the claim, but I am not going to declare
>by writer fiat that he is correct in his assumption and that such an
>entity actually exists.

Pretty much what I intended, as I mentioned it would be a speculative
conversation between characters, not a demand of irrefutable proof. I
do not, have not liked and will not support a "Confirmed this is fact"
crossover of ED and SR. I personally hate the existing links, but such
as they are, they offer a handy foil for a part of the Twilight's Soul
plot.

>To do so would require a new element of worldview
>(not to mention being more than a tad munchkin).

And never a truer sentence said.

>> I noticed your *grin* concerning 'I don't want it in _my_ shared
>> world' but, I beleive that this is _my_ shared world as well and I
>> don't mid seeing ED 'links' (and they are just that... links. They
>> have no tangeble proof other than heresey.)
>
>Er...don't you mean heres_a_y?

Vael has an occassional problem with English, and heresay/heresey are
similar <grin> I think you'll find he did mean hereSAY. :)

>I don't think discussion of ED links to SR
>is quite enough to be branded a heretic, but then there may be those that
>disagree. =)

Strangely enough, for one asking permission to speculate I am one of
those who would be the first to scream heretic :)

>> 'While we are at it, I don't want robotics in _my_ shared world.' I'm
>> sorry, but FASA has written into their sourcebooks robotics and
>> whether I like it or not it is part of the world; as are: ED Links.
>
>Well now. I assume this is sarcasm, but to illustrate the point:
>Robotics is a part of "our" world, so it is hard to have a big problem
>with it apearing in a world set in our future.

By robotics I think you'll find that Vael actually means things like
Androids, and humaoid robotics, rather than industry. However, he may
well be a technophobe, he lives several thousand miles away from me, so
I can't actually tell. :)

>I have more of a difficulty with EarthDawn making a big impact in the
>Shadowrun world for the basic reason that the world styles are so
>different.

Agreed, and no argument whatsoever.

>So to speak, the "flavor" of EarthDawn is that of a
>high-fantasy, D&D-like world, while ShadowRun is a low-fantasy cyberpunk
>world of the near future.

Again, I will state, that no intention is intended to state the links
"as irrefutable proof", I just wish a couple of characters to speculate
about it in a hypothetical sense, regarding Earthdawn as a high magic
civilisation, rather than an actual existence.

>When Immortal Elves (tm)

That's it, I'm not reading any further, I am not going to start off on
IE or anything of that nature, I think the Shadowrn list has suffered
quite enough of my rants on that subject :)

>High magic, like high technology, can all too easily tempt writers into
>making it, and not the characters involved, the focus of the story. As
>long as people keep this in mind, I think I shouldn't object strongly.

You seem to be under a misunderstanding and maybe should read my first
post on the subject. There is not, and never has been an intention of
"high magic" ala Earthdawn. I wish to post a speculative conversation
between characters regarding a previous high magic civilisation, one
from a point of view that is convinced, the other POV will be a devils
advocate, or denying that possibility. It just helps to explain a
couple of things in the list, and flesh out two of the characters who
will have major parts later in the plot.

<snip spoiler>
>Tell me this isn't part of DA's story, please.

No it isn't. Vael is merely wondering about the content of the books. I
don't like Jak's writing style and his blatant and obvious munchkinism
is something that has had me rabid for weeks. Both on the rn list and
privately.

I'll make no further comment here on the list, because I'd rather not
start a long conversation here on a subject best suited for the Shadowrn
list.


However, let it be said now, and finally.


The only possible link to Ed will be in the artefact "Twilight's Soul",
this article however is a Mayan creation, not an ED creation. So...


I have no intention of involving ED magic. I have no intention of
confirming and proving ED links. I have no intention of using ED as a
foil for the campaign. And I have absolutely no intention of utilising
Jak Koke's munchkinous mentality and moronic ability to write badly for
one game system while using stuff from another to prove an argument that
is to all intents and purposes pointless and idiotic - in any of my
plots - private, RL or public. The Dragoncycle series of books he is
responsible for, should, in my not very humble opinion, be taken out
into a distant field and shot in the back of the head.


He and others are more than aware of my mutinous and rebelious opinions
of his bloody writing, and I'd rather not be associated with the
liklihood of employing what I consider to be utter crap.


Sorry, Jak, but you already know my opinions.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:02:43 +0100
In article <9706178691.AA869198247@*********.comm.twcable.com>, Mike
Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> rambled on endlessly about
Emma/Library and Scourge
>Dark Avenger said:
>
>>objection regarding speculation extrapolated from known data, and possible
>>ED links to ancient civilisations. I remember a
>
> I do.

:)

>I don't have a problem with linking to past civilizations (like
> Mayans) as such. But I have a lot of objections with Earthdawn links.
> Rather than restate my opinions (on the connection between Earthdawn
> and Shadowrun) one more time on plot-d, how about you justify why you
> need the links to Earthdawn in the first place?

There is no immediate intention to link directly to Earthdawn, but for a
small portion of the plot, a recognition that some of the civilisation
base for the Mayans was based on Magic. Using Ehran's speech, it seemed
logical that a survivor from a certain island, had made it to the
southern continent and possibly been a strong influence in their "rise",
this would also be reflected by other civilisations however, because of
similarities in construction, astronomy and mathematics.

> As it stands right now, if you just said you were going to use them
> without any justification, I would just on principle say, "I don't
> want it in my shared world." *grin* I prefer to keep the two game
> worlds separate.

As I said, I can link it with source material, but I have no intention
of exploring it any further than with a suggestion of a possibility. It
just helps to explain one or two "magical" things I have planned. The
Mayans as such, have quite a strong belief in the spirit (astral) world,
and it seemed reasonable to explain that by speculating that they were
at the very edn of the mana cycle.

It was just a thought.

If there is a reaasonable objection then I'll drop the whole concept,
and find another way to explain it.

I do not under any circumstances, have any intention of linking
Shadowrun and Earthdawn directly, by any plot shifts, or events, the
link will be purely speculative. As people who know me are aware, I
have _very_ strong and somewhat acerbic opinions of SR/ED crossovers.
<grin>


>>if the player could let me know what happened there, as it will
>>influence a couple of things that are going to be happening within the
>>FBI "Achilles" plot. Thanks in advance.
>
> Scourge is mine. I will have to do some digging (always dangerous
> I've found) to answer this one, since I don't remember exactly what
> Scourge found on the behalf of SIGA. I do remember the aftermath
> because JICES made an offer (and I was going with the assumption the
> purchase happened) on the IC breaker with some significant conditions.

The purchase did occur, yes, and the IC braeker was left with scourge
after his run on the hill.

> Scourge's person-napping has made it that JICES cannot use the IC
> breaker (although through a painful manner they proved that it wasn't
> taking in the person-napping).

Fine, it is simply a bit of a plot thingy with the Achilles thread that
SIGA have been involved in. I was interested to know what had happened
to the IC breaker itself rather than Scourge, mainly because it is a
rather interesting piece of software. I'll wait for your mail
explanation and then inform you what was playing in my mind reagarding
teh software. If JICES has still got it, it won't be a problem and
won't influence the plot much.

>This will be answered more fully off
> plot-d as I get a chance. (Not likely in the next 24 hours.)

That's OK, I'm off to London tomorrow, and will be kinda busy all
weekend. So, later... :)


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 6
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:57:04 MST
Dark Avenger said:
>In article <9706178691.AA869198247@*********.comm.twcable.com>, Mike
>Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> rambled on endlessly about
>Emma/Library and Scourge

Watch the tone, chum. A grin at the end of that statement, and I
wouldn't have said anything. But, you didn't do that ...

>The purchase did occur, yes, and the IC braeker was left with scourge
>after his run on the hill.

>rather interesting piece of software. I'll wait for your mail
>explanation and then inform you what was playing in my mind reagarding
>teh software. If JICES has still got it, it won't be a problem and
>won't influence the plot much.

JICES still has the breaker, but will not be able to use it without
Scourge's matrix persona. Someone would have to know where to look to
find it, and I wouldn't want to be a decker shamelessly trying to
wander through JICES matrix just for the hell of it. (Besides it is
on an isolated matrix.)
Message no. 7
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:28:46 -0700
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Avenger wrote:

> In article <Pine.SGI.3.95.970718112937.15722A-100000@******.ugcs.caltech
> .edu>, Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU> rambled on endlessly about
> Emma/Library and Scourge

> The speculative conversation will be using material from Ehran's speech
> to the Young Elven Technologists, in which he mentions that survivors
> made it to the major continents. I can post the speech for those
> interested. It's from one of the SR Modules, I forget which one
> immediately, but will find it if requested.

Actually if you could, I'd be interested to see just what he said if only
to know what kind of stuff they are putting into cannon. (Hope you have
access to a scanner and some OCR software.)

> Don't worry Jeff, I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of "proving
> these links, and the conversation will be very two sided, with some
> logic to point to the possibilities of a previous civilisation of great
> power, and the other side logically denying it..

Well, this and the rest of the post have pretty much allayed my fears.
I'm willing to give it a thumbs up.

> Pretty much what I intended, as I mentioned it would be a speculative
> conversation between characters, not a demand of irrefutable proof. I
> do not, have not liked and will not support a "Confirmed this is fact"
> crossover of ED and SR. I personally hate the existing links, but such
> as they are, they offer a handy foil for a part of the Twilight's Soul
> plot.

Well, I have been making some private speculations myself regarding one of
my characters which may or may not ever hit the list. The character is a
changeling that I had to beg plotd about a year ago to let me use. More
or less: is she a product of evolution, or design? If the latter, then
it would demand the existance of a previous high-mana (high-magic) period,
which seems to be ShadowRun cannon, but I am hoping to avoid direct ED
links. (Unless someone happens to come across the mention of changelings
in ED, at which point I would be interested to know what was said, but
would probably avoid direct connections to the character.) I guess the
important thing to say about the character is that the speculation will
remain just that, and I promise that it will never become the point of any
of the stories involving her. However it does have some relation as to
how she sees herself which is a perfectly valid, and interesting topic.

> By robotics I think you'll find that Vael actually means things like
> Androids, and humaoid robotics, rather than industry. However, he may
> well be a technophobe, he lives several thousand miles away from me, so
> I can't actually tell. :)

Ah, the wonders of global telecommunications. =)

> >When Immortal Elves (tm)
>
> That's it, I'm not reading any further, I am not going to start off on
> IE or anything of that nature, I think the Shadowrn list has suffered
> quite enough of my rants on that subject :)

Heh. Well, I am not exactly too bothered by a being that doesn't seem to
age. However, calling that immortal is another matter entirely. Quite a
few old people die of things like cancer, arterial blockage, and other
such fun things that only care about lifespan and not how young you look.
Then there's the usual: car accidents, plagues, homicide. In other words,
so what if they are forever young? There still are a lot of other things
in the world that will kill you. It's when they try to say that there are
elves that survived all the way since the last high mana cycle and start
flinging magic like a 1000th level initiate that my credulity is strained
to the breaking point, but that is more a matter of writing style than
anything else. You'd think that over a few thousand years there'd be
enough genetic damage that they'd be one gigantic tumor. :P I guess we
can safely let the topic of IE's drop, then, since I only brought them up
as an illustration.

> >High magic, like high technology, can all too easily tempt writers into
> >making it, and not the characters involved, the focus of the story. As
> >long as people keep this in mind, I think I shouldn't object strongly.
>
> You seem to be under a misunderstanding and maybe should read my first
> post on the subject. There is not, and never has been an intention of
> "high magic" ala Earthdawn. I wish to post a speculative conversation
> between characters regarding a previous high magic civilisation, one
> from a point of view that is convinced, the other POV will be a devils
> advocate, or denying that possibility. It just helps to explain a
> couple of things in the list, and flesh out two of the characters who
> will have major parts later in the plot.

Sorry if you though that was directly adressed to you. It was more of a
general rant on my part. I think I understand your plot enough, and don't
have an objection to it anymore.

> <snip spoiler>
> >Tell me this isn't part of DA's story, please.
>
> No it isn't. Vael is merely wondering about the content of the books. I
> don't like Jak's writing style and his blatant and obvious munchkinism
> is something that has had me rabid for weeks. Both on the rn list and
> privately.

>>snip rant<<

Okay.... That may have been a little over-the-top, but then, I've never
read the original.

I guess that answers all my questions.

--Catch you later

Jeff
Message no. 8
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:14:41 +0100
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.970721133836.28094A-
100000@****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
rambled on endlessly about Emma/Library and Scourge
>On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Avenger wrote:

>> made it to the major continents. I can post the speech for those
>> interested. It's from one of the SR Modules, I forget which one
>> immediately, but will find it if requested.
>
>Actually if you could, I'd be interested to see just what he said if only
>to know what kind of stuff they are putting into cannon. (Hope you have
>access to a scanner and some OCR software.)

The speech itself is relatively short, and I'll send it to the list
later this week. (As soon as I find it) I shouldn't need the OCR and
scanner, as it's already on my system, I just have to dig through a
rather expansive system of caverns to find it.

>> logic to point to the possibilities of a previous civilisation of great
>> power, and the other side logically denying it..
>
>Well, this and the rest of the post have pretty much allayed my fears.
>I'm willing to give it a thumbs up.

Thanks.

>> crossover of ED and SR. I personally hate the existing links, but such
>> as they are, they offer a handy foil for a part of the Twilight's Soul
>> plot.
>
>important thing to say about the character is that the speculation will
>remain just that, and I promise that it will never become the point of any
>of the stories involving her. However it does have some relation as to
>how she sees herself which is a perfectly valid, and interesting topic.

That's part of the reason why I wanted to include a speculative
reference to a previous high magic civilisation, but not actually
blatantly state out loud, Oh by the way everybody my character has just
found a portal to EarthDawn and is going through to learn new magic and
kill everything that's not nice in Shadowrun.

I would expect to be instantly and rapidly savaged out of existence by
rabid listmembers if I even contemplated such a thing.

We even today speculate about previous civilisations and some schools of
thought (not only the Mayans) believed that there have been "ages of
man" and that previous world spanning civilisations had existed before
our own. This is, of course pure speculation and it is unlikely that we
will ever know the truth of it.

Employing that sort of speculation was the grounding for the "character
coversation" that I was interested in posting.

>> well be a technophobe, he lives several thousand miles away from me, so
>> I can't actually tell. :)
>
>Ah, the wonders of global telecommunications. =)

Yeah. Aren't they marvelous. :) I've talked to Vael frequently over
the last year, so I've got an idea how he thinks which is why I thought
I'd clarify his statement, especially as his e-mail link is rather
"random" at the moment.

<snip - IE>
>> That's it, I'm not reading any further, I am not going to start off on
>> IE or anything of that nature, I think the Shadowrn list has suffered
>> quite enough of my rants on that subject :)
>
>Heh. Well, I am not exactly too bothered by a being that doesn't seem to
>age.

Not aging is a tad different to the way IE are actually portrayed, it's
not the ageless quality I have a problem with, it's the rest of the
rubbish. :)

>However, calling that immortal is another matter entirely.

Immortal, in my opinion implies not only agelessness but also
regeneration, indicating that the elves are able to heal wounds and
"come back from the dead" ala Highlander. This indication is in my not
very humble at all opinion unacceptable. I don't think that's what FASA
intended witht he immortal elves, but I can't help wondering sometimes.

<snip methods of death>
>enough genetic damage that they'd be one gigantic tumor. :P I guess we
>can safely let the topic of IE's drop, then, since I only brought them up
>as an illustration.

Sorry, I see the words immortal and elves in the same sentence and I
sort of "white out" it's a problem that my analyst has given up on <g>

<snippy>
>> couple of things in the list, and flesh out two of the characters who
>> will have major parts later in the plot.
>
>Sorry if you though that was directly adressed to you.

I did. That's e-mail for you :)

>It was more of a
>general rant on my part.

Been there, done that. It's a definite problem with e-mail, where one
can air relatively strong views on a subject in answer to something and
it is usually taken as a personal attack or something.

>I think I understand your plot enough, and don't
>have an objection to it anymore.

Fair enough. Thanks for that.
If you have any further questions, either ask here if you think it's
fitting or send me private mail. i'm alwyas happy to explain what I'm
up to and attempt to explain how my mind works.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Emma/Library and Scourge
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:21:09 +0100
In article <9706218695.AA869519582@*********.comm.twcable.com>, Mike
Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> rambled on endlessly about
Emma/Library and Scourge :)

>Dark Avenger said:
>>In article <9706178691.AA869198247@*********.comm.twcable.com>, Mike
>>Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> rambled on endlessly about
>>Emma/Library and Scourge
>
> Watch the tone, chum. A grin at the end of that statement, and I
> wouldn't have said anything. But, you didn't do that ...

??? Tone? Huh?
Do you mean the header line?... OK, I'll add a smiley if it makes you
more confortable. I've never bothered before, mainly because aside from
top cat nobody's really commented about it, it's an automatic thing that
my mailer does. I just let it get on with it.

>>teh software. If JICES has still got it, it won't be a problem and
>>won't influence the plot much.
>
> JICES still has the breaker, but will not be able to use it without
> Scourge's matrix persona. Someone would have to know where to look to
> find it, and I wouldn't want to be a decker shamelessly trying to
> wander through JICES matrix just for the hell of it. (Besides it is
> on an isolated matrix.)

Fair enough, that's more than sufficient, thanks. The fate of the IC
breaker was the important part of things, as its "unauthorised" use may
have had severe repurcussions for two of my characters. Seeing as it's
safely locked away until Scourge returns I shall not worry about it any
longer.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

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