Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Colm Fahy <C384-004@*******.UCD.IE>
Subject:	encryptions
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 1994 11:37:09 GMT

Message no. 1 just when i saw the debate on black encryptions on the net i decided it was
time to mention a few things about all the broken encryptions on the list recen
tly...
firstly a code as opposed to a cipher is .completel,utterly. unbreakable..
always...for ever..in saecula saeculorum,amen
this is not a function of processing power,advanced logarithms or anything else
...so anyone who puts something on an encryption like one-time pad or direct
to mpcp shouldn't be broken ...ever!
direct to mpcp is slightly more open to interpretation i suppose, but try and
remember that if people can meet directly and exchange keys/codes, their
comms after that can .never. be broken
the main reason I'm posting this is my irritation with Dante's decrypting messa
ges all the time...It doesn't matter how good your machine or your programs are
..some codes/encryptions can never be broken

just my few pence worth

Colm

remember, the PGP that some members of this list use can itself not be broken
..not by your CIA and NSA over there, or by the various european/eastern equiva
lents

finally..if anyone knows where I can get a copy of PGP for the PC or a VM syste
m from off the internet please tell me

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: encryptions
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 1994 13:10:06 -0600

Message no. 2 Oh come on, any encrypted information can be cracked. This is a given.
Given enough time and energy, you can eventually break something. it is
just a question of keeping your encryption algorithms ahead of those that
will decrypt them. NOTHING is ever 100% secure.

The EFF recently estimated that the NSA using a distributed brute-force
attack (using their several CRAYs) could crack one 1024-bit PGP
encryption key per day. That's A LOT of computer power required, and it
would increase exponentially if you used a larger key (say 2048-bit or
4096-bit).

The fact is that it is not too unrealistic to see encryptions broken in
the SR world. But the problem is with the way encrypts are implemented
on this list.

I've been over this before. i think encryptions are useless and only
serve to hamper the storyline. It eliminated about 98% of the
participants in the stroy for contributing, as essentially their
characters couldn't read it. But, turn around and you find people ignore
encrypts anyways. Thus, they are just there to give people the sense
that they are doing something secret, only to be ignored.

They are dumb, IMHO.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> To flame me, log on to ICBMnet and
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> target 44 09' 49" N x 93 59' 57"
W
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

From:	Colm Fahy <C384-004@*******.UCD.IE>
Subject:	Re: encryptions
Date:	Tue, 25 Jan 1994 15:36:26 GMT

Message no. 3 ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Oh come on, any encrypted information can be cracked. This is a given.
Given enough time and energy, you can eventually break something. it is
just a question of keeping your encryption algorithms ahead of those that
will decrypt them. NOTHING is ever 100% secure.

The EFF recently estimated that the NSA using a distributed brute-force
attack (using their several CRAYs) could crack one 1024-bit PGP
encryption key per day. That's A LOT of computer power required, and it
would increase exponentially if you used a larger key (say 2048-bit or
4096-bit).

The fact is that it is not too unrealistic to see encryptions broken in
the SR world. But the problem is with the way encrypts are implemented
on this list.

sorry to disagree oh lord and master but you're wrong...way wrong.
it is .impossible. using cryptanalysis or .any. other method to break a one-
time-pad type .code. ...I stress the word code and not cipher..there is a diffe
rence between them (look it up :) since there is often no crytographic rules
(which can be detected...) in a .code. and there is no frequency-type
repetition a code is unbreakable..fact..it is not any function of sheer power.

with regard to the game I think encryptions are .way. overused ....I'm guilty
myself certainly. The only reason they should be used is to keep people on the
list informed of things they would not ,as pc's as it were, know . i.e. the
Masque thing should blow open soon but already many people on the list are inte
rested in the unfolding story...Yes they shouldn't be used to exclude people fr
om any thread..

Colm Fahy <c384-004@*******.ucd.ie>
email to get PGP2.3A Public Key

From:	"Brian E. Angliss" <ANGLISS@***.PSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: encryptions
Date:	Tue, 25 Jan 1994 16:28:11 -0500

Message no. 4 Whoa here...

What are the chances that you could crack a one time code? Close to nil? I'll
give you that, but NOTHING is totally secure. There will always be that odd
chance of some idiot out there accidently guessing the 1024 or however many
alphanumeric digits there are on the first try. Sure, it goes WAY down as you
add digits, but even if there is only a one in 10 billion quadrillion, that
idiot could still guess right the first time. Statistically, the chance is
nil, but realistically you could get it on the first try. The best you can
do is make the numbers soooooooo huge that it would take all the processing
power of the planet several years to crack it systematically, but even then
there is a chance that it will get cracked. Luck plays a BIG part in this.

Personally, I believe the "Sneakers" theory of encryption and one pad codes:
ANYTHING can be broken. If you can prove to me that a code will NEVER be
broken, then I'll believe you, but I don't think you can. Statistically,
no matter what the chance, however small it is, there is that chance that
you'llget it right, and it goes up every time you guess wrong.

Brian

From:	Colm Fahy <C384-004@*******.UCD.IE>
Subject:	Re: encryptions
Date:	Wed, 26 Jan 1994 10:26:56 GMT

Message no. 5 Sorry, but we're still talking ciphers (rule based systems) and not codes..
a one-use cipher is near unbreakable yes...but it is in theory possible to do
so.. a one-use no-repetition .code. is unbreakable because it need not be based
on any logical premise whatsoever

for instance,if you and I had decided years ago that if I ever sent you a msg.
containing the word 'love' . that would mean that My father had returned from t
he dead and was haunting me.. that would be a simple .code., no-one, without us
telling them (directly or indirectly), could ever break that code, even if they
knew that my using the word 'love' was special, they could not possibly be
sure of what it meant...

Colm Fahy
Email for PGP23a pub.key

From:	Colm Fahy <C384-004@*******.UCD.IE>
Subject:	Re: encryptions
Date:	Wed, 26 Jan 1994 10:34:12 GMT

Message no. 6 Just incidentally, for those who haven't guessed, my degree over here is in
Mathematics and Statistics..lots of probability theory and cryptography...
sorry for getting on my hobby horse about this, I really intended getting
people to use the bloody things less so that more people could get involved in
a thread...what's the fun in encryptions if they can't be broken
(I'll be nice and say without a lot of effort at least :)

Apologies

Colm Fahy

Email for PGP23a Pub.Key

From:	The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Encryptions
Date:	Fri, 11 Mar 1994 15:54:19 +0000

Message no. 7 Arrrgghh I have bloody encrytions coming out of my ears !!!!!!

--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | Fighting against
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | Political Correctness !
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	encryptions
Date:	Sat, 12 Mar 1994 16:18:10 -0600

Message no. 8 Alright

I think it's high time we rethink encryptions on ShadowTalk. I've gone
from the only one that dispised their abuse to one of many, and I'd
appreciate some ideas on how to fix it.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

From:	Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: encryptions
Date:	Sat, 12 Mar 1994 16:41:25 -0600

Message no. 9 I personally think that we (general term -- some of us have, some of us have not
done so) have abused encryptions, but you kind of have to keep something in
mind. A character like Durandal (my character, accused by at least one of
overdosing on the encrypts -- I figured they were right, and tried to cut them
down a lot. Have I been doing so to your satisfaction, all?) is very paranoid,
and almost _has_ to be, in order to keep his brains together while running the
'shadows. Paranoia contributes to this abuse of encryption -- it seems to be
sort of overplaying a certain character aspect.

Also, I think that maybe what you could do is have encryption schemes get
broken. I think I've done this once before, but if someone repeatedly uses the
same encryption scheme, I eventually will manage to figure out the general idea
of the message. Note that I have recently changed schemes as Durandal from
"BlackPhoenix" to "Haze of Blood." =-)

As for what could be done to fix this problem, I'm not really sure. I think we
have a very open and pleasant environment here, and I wouldn't want to see it
be censored or controlled somehow. I suppose that the time for quiet reminders
in e-mail has passed, I suppose that the time for debate and action has come:
but I, personally, would be loathe to change the environment here. It is some-
thing I have come to enjoy and appreciate it. Let's not be overly quick in our
decision, nor overly heavy-handed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gian-Paolo Musumeci

From:	William Lydick <lydick@*******.CNS.UDEL.EDU>
Subject:	Encryptions
Date:	Sun, 13 Mar 1994 14:18:19 EST

Message no. 10 Well, here's my two cents...For the most part, many of the encryptions I've seen
could really be done as open messages (ie--we're ALL playing characters who are
in the business of doing illegal things, we're pratically the only ones here,
who cares if our messages are seen or not.)

HOWEVER, stuff that isn't internal to the Shadowtalk "thingie" (BBS) make more
sense to be encoded because they quite often represent corporate security
encryptions.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that messages that are in the group for
player-oriented informative purposes (ie--my Lone Star file posts) should have
no restrictions on Encryptions. They're there because the palyers in the group
should be aware of what's going on, but the characters shouldn't. They also
allow the characters to find something "interesting" if they do delve into the
named computer syustem. As for the messages that are player-to-player talk,
most of them SHOULD be unencrypted (I'm talking upwards of 85% per character)
because they're short. Messages that are acknowledgements of confirmations
don't need encrypts...Why bother with it? Nobody knows what you're saying "yes"
to, anyway, unless they've broken the encrypt.

The solution to the problem that I'm planning to use is that, IF my character
ever logs in, he won't be using any encrypts. After all, he won't be a decker
and therefore won't have the time or ability to WRITE encryption schemes. The
time taken to write an encryption scheme should also be considered...You can't
just take an old scheme and "tweak" it a little so that it is a different
scheme, because that nullifies the whole point of writing the new one.

Anyway, my 0.02 =Y=

William M. Lydick
(Apologies for coherency/lack thereof...it's been a rough week)

From:	Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject:	Encryptions
Date:	Sun, 13 Mar 1994 22:40:17 -0800

Message no. 11 I have to agree with Rob, for the most part, on this topic. Encryptions
are being over-used more and more lately, and most of the time in
unnecessary ways.

Encryptions, for my characters, should only be used in two ways:
1) When I'm sending something personal to another character, something
I don't want the other players to read, but I want the author's to
(sensitive banter with Cerise is my main example); these give insight
into the characcters, if not into a storyline.
2)When I'm sending something I don't want other members of the list to
see, because it's about them, but again should be read by the author's
(by the authors, fog forget those 's, I wish I could backspace.....).
When a player or players are planning to take out a third player. Yes,
this can be taken care of privately, but that can take away some of the
fun, some of the build-up.

Encyptions should NOT (IMO) be used:
1)When you're concerned about security for a job you're pulling. Unless
you think one of the other members is out to get you, encrypting your
posts to your team is a waste of ASCII characters. This is the
ShadowLand board, after all, and the corps aren't going to have too
active a a presence here
2) When you are posting an internal memo or the like. Either someone
is pulling those things for everyone to read, or they're not being
pulled; they dont' just show up here.

In conclusion: be realistic, and be willing to suspend reality. This is
a fantasy setting, and we don't want to burden it down with too much
technical "reality." Realize that, except in a few instances, it
won't matter who ra reads your posts. In the setting we are playing in,
the wrong people aren't going to get your info unless the story calls
for it, and then encryptions won't matter. Argh, I get the feeling
I'm not getting my point across very well. Oh, well, let's hope
it worked well enough. If people seem to confused, I'll try and
clarify some other time.

Later!
-Ed

From:	Timothy Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Encryptions
Date:	Mon, 14 Mar 1994 07:48:18 -0600

Message no. 12 One problem with the whole encrypt thing is that there really isn't
much of a way to use private mail with people that everyone SHOULD be reading.

That's been a problem with me. I only have decrypted stuff that I was
actually WATCHING. I consider encrypts to make it quite like private E-Mail,
so the only way to get it is to intercept it either at the source or at the
destination.

Idea: a Private Encryption. It's supposed to be just private E-Mail
that isn't actually on the board, unless you actively look for it.

----------------------- "Well, you see, they took the Bible literally.
Tim Skirvin Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple...took
(tskirvin@ it word for word. Unfortunately, their
superdec.uni.uiuc.edu) version had a misprint."
----------------------- - Rimmer, Red Dwarf (The Last Day)

From:	Necromancer <shilberg@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Encryptions
Date:	Mon, 14 Mar 1994 07:59:14 -0600

Message no. 13 Excuse me, if you are sending something yopu don't want anyone else to read,
use private e-mail anyway....

Second, if you are sending something you want everyone (ooc) to know about but
not their characters, then you use encryption. And all Solonus miraculuous
hacking ability (feel my sarcasm) and the fact that he in particular seems ablee
to crunch every single encrypt sent out, I feel that unless the same encrypt
system is being used over and over and over <three or four times>, then it
shouldn;t be cracked.

There is also a degree of roleplaying required. If your character is a decker,
and one with easy access to a powerful computer, you are going to be able to
crunch an encryption a hell of a lot easier than if your character is someone
who doesn't spend a great deal of the Matrix, like a sam or a mage....

This may sound a great deal like a flame....and it just might be....but I tried
to make it somewhat relevant to this discussion....

From:	Mike Goldberg <m_goldberg@**.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:	Encryptions
Date:	Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:11:57 MST

Message no. 14 Well, just to add my 2 cents into the barrel of opinion on the matter, I agree
with Ed on the subject.

I would like to say on thing, in the latest story I did use a fair amount of
encryption because their enemies, Hammer and Nightmare both frequent this
board, and do read the non-encrypted messages. Otherwise. . . I probably
wouldn't have bothered with encryptions.

Mike

From:	Kymberly Acton <uslae@***.MCL.UCSB.EDU>
Subject:	Re: encryptions
Date:	Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:25:25 -0700

Message no. 15 -

- Was kind of taking it for granted that encryptions could and would be
broken, have been using two or three times, then dropping, as message
would be accessable by anyone _remotely_ curious.
Only restarting or changing when characters seek privacy, but expecting
those codes to fall to public view as well...

My group has been counceled that changing codes protects against folk in
our game, but may be accessable to "super dekker" out there, this tends
to tone down usage. (why post it if _no one_ out there can read it,
_really_ secure communications is taking place via E-mail on AOL anyway!)

-vigilant
Kjers

From:	Timothy Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Encryptions
Date:	Mon, 14 Mar 1994 11:41:12 -0600

Message no. 16 First of all, let it be known that I have cracked ONE encrypt. EVER.
And that one I was intercepting at the source. That's ALL.

And sometimes you want the private E-Mail to go out. I use a special
PRIVATE encrypt to say it's private
And you know what? Solonus is NOT such a great decrypter. He knows
how to crack that one method now (that's about it), and he has a hard time
learning others.

Once again, it was ONE encryption. Just the one saying where the place
was. That's IT. I was monitoring stuff. Ah, who cares, it'll just start a
flame war here.

----------------------- "Well, you see, they took the Bible literally.
Tim Skirvin Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple...took
(tskirvin@ it word for word. Unfortunately, their
superdec.uni.uiuc.edu) version had a misprint."
----------------------- - Rimmer, Red Dwarf (The Last Day)

From:	MAGECK <JVXNSYA@***.BITNET>
Subject:	Re: encryptions
Date:	Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:00:30 -0500

Message no. 17 I agree with the fact that encryptions are being used far too much. I only use
them when I absolutely must. That is all I am gonna say on the matter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam E. Buchanan | MAGECK
"One Dream One Soul One Prize One Goal" | ECKMAN
JVXNSYA@***.grove.iup.edu |
Many deny our existence |We are not just in Tales
And some think we might be there |But we are here
Few truly believe |We are the SIDHE
Reconsider your thoughts |Do not deny
Cause you may be |We are the SIDHE
With one of us right now |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 18 c

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Encryptions
Date:	Sun, 3 Apr 1994 21:38:09 -0700

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Encryptions
Date:	Sun, 3 Apr 1994 21:39:39 -0700

Message no. 19 Whoops!

Rob, I finally got around to working on the encryption stuff and discovered you
send me the NERPS FAQ. Send me Shadowtk!

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Keep your friends close, but keep *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * your enemies closer." *
* The Nightstalker * * Deep Throat -- The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Encryptions
Date:	Sun, 3 Apr 1994 23:47:35 -0500

Message no. 20 On Sun, 3 Apr 1994, Jason Carter, Nightstalker wrote:

> c

Hmm, after running that through decription, I got:

!

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

From:	Mike Goldberg <m_goldberg@**.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:	Encryptions...
Date:	Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:28:08 MST

Message no. 21 I think there is a small need to mention this. I just logged onto my account
this afternoon. I received 91 messages related to plot-d and shadowtk. Of
those 91, 46 were from Shadowtk. Of those from Shadowtk, only about 5
contained any messages that were readible by _ANY_ of my characters. I think
there is something _significantly_ wrong in this.

Jason -- guess you didn't see it, but Scourge already paid Kor. Oh well.
Guess Kor got paid twice for his troubles. *grin*

Germany stuff...

Nightmare has for reasons he won't state decided to let HAMMER live. The trade
for Doomsday will be happening soon. The "rescue" of AJ from the german
policlub will also happen soon. That should hopefully be tying itself up by
this weekend, if I am lucky (and stay healthy).

That's all for now. I'm still waiting to see anyone's comments on what
happened in Pittsburgh, besides the videos that Scourge found. Well? 8*}

Later,
Mike

From:	Brian Rogers <rogers@****.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Encryptions
Date:	Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:35:55 -0500

Message no. 22 I'd like to submit my reasons behind encryption for your comments:

Jason Stormwind / Kor has a team of deckers that read all of his
incoming and jocky all of his outgoing mail. Its never been a problem
before recently but he's just gotten into something that he doesnt want
the deckers to get into but he is in no way going to give up the protection
that his deckers give him (Im just waiting for Ratspeak to come and
try and catch me on line at shadowland so he can try to frag me).

His encryptions will be kept to a bare minimum.

Last message was simple -- light encryption, if broken, would reveal a
message that says "stop, please" then a heavier encryption to get his
message to scourge. I know Neuron Basher well enough (his paladin complex
is about as high as mine) and he wont let Jason get himself into something
he (NB) cant get him out of. He would go after the encryption for no other
reason than the challenge.

So, Mark, did you try to break both of them?

From:	"Mark A. Imbriaco" <mark@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Encryptions
Date:	Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:59:02 -0400

Message no. 23 > So, Mark, did you try to break both of them?

Of course. :-)

-Mark

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