Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:23:35 -0800
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Mach wrote:

> *****PRIVATE: Faerie
<<SNIP>>
> there. I'll run some checking, there might be a real clunker
> semi-ballistic that I can follow, but most of them are too damn fast, once
> they get up to speed.
<<SNIP>>
> -- Michael <21:59:48/01-21-59 PST>

Actually, here's an interesting question that I'd like to ask for some
opinions on. Currently the only mention of the Astral speed limit is:

The magician chaaracter can move at his Magic Rating in kilometers per
action (roughly Magic x 1000km per hour).
--SR2 pp. 146

So, first question: if the mage were to be under the influence of an
initiative-boosting spell, which, on average gives them more than one
action per turn, would they go that much faster in overall speed. From
what has been discussed in the sourcebooks in regards to running, this
would seem to be so.

Second question is more problematic, and touches on the sticky wicket of
"vehicular aura." What if Michael were to go _inside_ a semi-balistic?
IIRC, in the NeoAnarchist's Guide to Real Life (which I don't have), they
are listed as being Mach 8-10 capable, which, depending on altitude can be
a rather wide range of actual velocities some of which are above that of
my mage character going top astral speed. Can an astral character "catch
a ride" on a vehicle by hanging onto a seat and be accelerated by the
vehicle, or a person, since living things are more "solid" in astral
space, or are they limited by their top speed and would be left behind if
the craft went faster than they would, effectively flying to keep up? I
don't suppose the airlines would be too happy about astral travelers
tagging along like this, although they can hardly charge full fare if you
aren't eating any peanuts, weighing down the plane, or even taking up any
usable space.

Thoughts, opinions?
--Catch you later

Jeff
Message no. 2
From: "Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:49:10 -0800
According to Jeffrey Mach:
>Actually, here's an interesting question that I'd like to ask for some
>opinions on. Currently the only mention of the Astral speed limit is:
>
>The magician chaaracter can move at his Magic Rating in kilometers per
>action (roughly Magic x 1000km per hour).
> --SR2 pp. 146
>
>So, first question: if the mage were to be under the influence of an
>initiative-boosting spell, which, on average gives them more than one
>action per turn, would they go that much faster in overall speed. From
>what has been discussed in the sourcebooks in regards to running, this
>would seem to be so.

Well, it should be the same as the rule for mundane but accelerated (Wires or
whatever) characters running. I don't have sourcebooks on hand but I seem to
recall that a character takes an Action to run, and therefore multiple
Actions should equal multiple distances of running. Someone better doublecheck
the SRII to make sure I'm not spouting BS. ^_^

>Second question is more problematic, and touches on the sticky wicket of
>"vehicular aura." What if Michael were to go _inside_ a semi-balistic?
>IIRC, in the NeoAnarchist's Guide to Real Life (which I don't have), they
>are listed as being Mach 8-10 capable, which, depending on altitude can be
>a rather wide range of actual velocities some of which are above that of
>my mage character going top astral speed. Can an astral character "catch
>a ride" on a vehicle by hanging onto a seat and be accelerated by the
>vehicle, or a person, since living things are more "solid" in astral
>space, or are they limited by their top speed and would be left behind if
>the craft went faster than they would, effectively flying to keep up? I
>don't suppose the airlines would be too happy about astral travelers
>tagging along like this, although they can hardly charge full fare if you
>aren't eating any peanuts, weighing down the plane, or even taking up any
>usable space.
>
>Thoughts, opinions?

Ooh, _very_ nifty question! =) *thinks* *thinks some more* How about this:
consider a magician who Astrally Projects from his own living room and just
stays by his body. The Astral system obviously allows this. Now, consider
that, every instant, the house and indeed everything on the surface of the
planet is moving at a _very_ high tangential velocity relative to, say, the
ecliptic. And the solar system is, in turn, moving at some moderately
alarming velocity around the galactic center, and the galaxy is expanding away
from its neighbors, etc. In other words, Astral beings appear to be bound
at least somewhat to local reference frames. Based on that, I'm prepared to
say that, since _every_ material object has some sort of Astral reflection
(whether the sourcebooks want to say it's an Aura or just a "shadow" or
whatnot), I'm inclined to say that Astral beings can indeed "hitch a ride"
on a moving frame of reference provided they can gain entrance somehow (which
shouldn't be a problem for a sub-orbital flight unless it's Warded =)

Panic and confusion for the airlines for generations to come. =)
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 3
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 02:11:13 +0000
Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU> once wrote,

> > *****PRIVATE: Faerie
> <<SNIP>>
> > there. I'll run some checking, there might be a real clunker
> > semi-ballistic that I can follow, but most of them are too damn fast, once
> > they get up to speed.
> <<SNIP>>
> > -- Michael <21:59:48/01-21-59 PST>
>
> Actually, here's an interesting question that I'd like to ask for some
> opinions on. Currently the only mention of the Astral speed limit is:
>
> The magician chaaracter can move at his Magic Rating in kilometers per
> action (roughly Magic x 1000km per hour).
> --SR2 pp. 146
>
> So, first question: if the mage were to be under the influence of an
> initiative-boosting spell, which, on average gives them more than one
> action per turn, would they go that much faster in overall speed. From
> what has been discussed in the sourcebooks in regards to running, this
> would seem to be so.

Yes...Running actions can be taken at each combat phase, so logically, the
more combat phases you have, the farther/faster you can run.

> Second question is more problematic, and touches on the sticky wicket of
> "vehicular aura." What if Michael were to go _inside_ a semi-balistic?
> IIRC, in the NeoAnarchist's Guide to Real Life (which I don't have), they
> are listed as being Mach 8-10 capable, which, depending on altitude can be
> a rather wide range of actual velocities some of which are above that of
> my mage character going top astral speed. Can an astral character "catch
> a ride" on a vehicle by hanging onto a seat and be accelerated by the
> vehicle, or a person, since living things are more "solid" in astral
> space, or are they limited by their top speed and would be left behind if
> the craft went faster than they would, effectively flying to keep up? I
> don't suppose the airlines would be too happy about astral travelers
> tagging along like this, although they can hardly charge full fare if you
> aren't eating any peanuts, weighing down the plane, or even taking up any
> usable space.

Hmm... nice one...

Hmm... okay. I think he could. As long as the two auras don't merge, the
astral hitchhiker (hey, nifty title for a novel :) ) can grab on a passing
aura (passive of course, I wouldn't grab an active aura), and follow it at
the aura's speed. The only problem I would see would stem from the limits
of the Gaiasphere... This would work for HST planes... but for subs and
semi-ballistics, I would think it's a big no-no.

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Orbital - "In-Sides"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 4
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:16:16 -0700
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Mach wrote:

> So, first question: if the mage were to be under the influence of an
> initiative-boosting spell, which, on average gives them more than one
> action per turn, would they go that much faster in overall speed. From
> what has been discussed in the sourcebooks in regards to running, this
> would seem to be so.
>

Two problems with this. The first is that you cannot sustain a spell
while in astral space. Of course, the rules are more vague on spell locks
in astral space, but my house rule is that becuase it was cast on the
physical body and locked to that, the spell lock cannot be activated
effectively in astral space. (The spell accellerates the meat, not the
mind.)

I should point out that I play with the concept from the books that says
that wired and enhanced folks do not really think faster, they react
faster. That's why runners with with their backs to the door, so they
don't kill a friend who snuck up on them.


Some people have already responded that since "running" gets you faster in
mundane, it should in astral too. However, there is a little clause on
that rule that says that you can only take ONE running action in each full
combat round. So, even if you get 6 actions that turn, the other five are
only "walks". (Yes, you're faster than a norm, but there is a limit.)


> Second question is more problematic, and touches on the sticky wicket of
> "vehicular aura." What if Michael were to go _inside_ a semi-balistic?
>

This brings up an interesting question. I've had astral beings moving
along next to or inside of a car talking to the occupents. That never
bothered me. But a high-mach plane?

My gut instict would be that someone astralling percieving from the plane
would be fine. Someone astralling projecting from the plane, from it's
frame of reference, would be fine as long as they stayed IN THE PLANE.
Just like someone who astrally projects in a house, (which as someone
pointed out is moving at a high speed becuas the Earth and solar system
are moving), doesn't feel the motion. Frame of reference.

Someone who tried to grab ahold of an aura and "hitch a ride" on the plane
might be in for a problem. Allowing them to adjust to the frame of
reference, they could be fine in the plane, but if they left the confines
okf the plane, they revert to the outside frame of reference. Suddenly,
they are flying along at Mach 5 or whatever, out of control, and slamming
into all those tiny bacteria in the atmosphere. Sure, you don't notice
them on astral when you're at normal speed, but at this high speed....
(kind of like dust in space in some of the sci-fi.) I would give them
about as much chance of not being hurt as someone jumping out of a moving
car.


Of course, any plane that leaves the atmostphere would mess up the mage...



See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James
(Mission Specialist for the Ventrue on Mars project.)

:)
Message no. 5
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:36:54 +0000
On 21 Jan 98 at 22:23, Jeffrey Mach wrote:
[snip]
> So, first question: if the mage were to be under the influence of an
> initiative-boosting spell, which, on average gives them more than one
> action per turn, would they go that much faster in overall speed. From
> what has been discussed in the sourcebooks in regards to running, this
> would seem to be so.
Grimoire p. 86: "Generally, speaking, cyberware or bioware that boosts
intelligence does not affect the Astral Physical Attribute. In fact,
most things, including non-permanent magics (sustained, locked, or
quickened= do not affect Attributes in astral space. Increases
available to physical adepts do, however."

SRII, p. 83: "Characters who have multiple Actions may run only in one
of those Combat Phases, but it does not matter which."

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'The only folks you |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | should trust are your |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | enemies, because you |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| know what they want.' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Thumbs, Troll Samurai|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ----(N.Pollotta)-+
Message no. 6
From: Justin Fang <justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:52:07 -0800
Jeffrey Mach wrote:
>The magician chaaracter can move at his Magic Rating in kilometers per
>action (roughly Magic x 1000km per hour).
> --SR2 pp. 146

Huh. I always thought that read "kilometers per *turn*". So much for
reading comprehension.

>So, first question: if the mage were to be under the influence of an
>initiative-boosting spell, which, on average gives them more than one
>action per turn, would they go that much faster in overall speed. From

I'd say no. First of all, just by astrally projecting, a magician gets a
+15 initiative boost, so your average mage is already getting 3 actions a
turn. Secondly, if Increase Initiative is a physical spell (can't check
right now) then it won't work on a projecting mage. You'd need to research
an "Increase Astral Initiative" spell (assuming that's possible).

>what has been discussed in the sourcebooks in regards to running, this
>would seem to be so.

I doubt astral movement works much like running. I don't think that passage
is intended to provide an exact correspondance between tactical combat
movement rates and long-distance travel speeds.

>my mage character going top astral speed. Can an astral character "catch
>a ride" on a vehicle by hanging onto a seat and be accelerated by the
>vehicle, or a person, since living things are more "solid" in astral
>space, or are they limited by their top speed and would be left behind if
>the craft went faster than they would, effectively flying to keep up? I

Hmm. There shouldn't be any problem syncing your speed with a vehicle
traveling slower than your max astral speed (as long as neither of you is
making any drastic maneuvers). I'd guess that if you're physically
travelling inside a plane going faster than you max astral speed and you
project, you're astral body won't get "left behind" as long as you stay
inside the plane (though if you leave you'll instantly slow down). This
implies that if you can get into the plane before it exceeds your top speed
you'll be able to hitch a ride without any problems (as long as it doesn't
go too high...)

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 7
From: "Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:53:51 -0800
According to Sascha Pabst:
>Grimoire p. 86: "Generally, speaking, cyberware or bioware that boosts
>intelligence does not affect the Astral Physical Attribute. In fact,
>most things, including non-permanent magics (sustained, locked, or
>quickened= do not affect Attributes in astral space. Increases
>available to physical adepts do, however."

Okay, so so much for the Sustained spell. I wonder how much of a stretch it
would be to specifically develop a spell to boost Astral speed?

>SRII, p. 83: "Characters who have multiple Actions may run only in one
>of those Combat Phases, but it does not matter which."

Ah ha, that's right. That would be why Move By Wire grants extra Athletics-
related dice, to allow characters to boost their movement rate with an
Athletics check. >}
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 8
From: Justin Fang <justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:03:08 -0800
James Paul Morgan wrote:
>okf the plane, they revert to the outside frame of reference. Suddenly,
>they are flying along at Mach 5 or whatever, out of control, and slamming
>into all those tiny bacteria in the atmosphere. Sure, you don't notice
>them on astral when you're at normal speed, but at this high speed....

I don't think so. "Magic rating x 1000 kilometers per hour" works out to
about Mach 5 or 6 for a mage with MR 6, so we already know that mages can
travel at high speeds without getting hurt. Furthermore, things in Astral
space seem to be inertialess, or nearly so: mages can reach top speed almost
instantly, which normally would squash you flat. I don't think a sudden
deceleration would be life threatening.

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 9
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:02:08 -0800
Okay, first things first: Thanks Sacha for catching that "only one run
per phase" even if the run takes the full phase. Makes a bit more sense.
However, the mages get "per action" while in flight. On the other hand,
most mages have about the same initiative on the astral, so I was running
with the assumption that they took this into account when they came up
with the "Mx100kph" term.

Frank: Re: semi-ballistics (or sub-orbitals) it is specifically mentioned
in the NAGRL that they don't leave the "Gaiasphere" and so are safe for
astrally active beings. Only the orbitals or balistics go beyond the 80
mile limit and cause problems. I am partial to the "astral vacuum" theory
when it comes to that, if anyone bothered to care.

On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, James Paul Morgan wrote:
>
> This brings up an interesting question. I've had astral beings moving
> along next to or inside of a car talking to the occupents. That never
> bothered me. But a high-mach plane?

As Justin just pointed out (stealing my thunder...since I was already
mid-post when I put this down to see what he said) several thousand km per
hour is already high-mach. Although, I do need to put in the caveat since
I am getting my Masters in Aerospace and this is my home turf, that sound
speed varies dramatically with altitude (or more precisely, vary with the
square root of temperature for the simplest of approximations), so Mach 5
isn't some set velocity in km/hour, it is simply five times the speed of
sound in the medium which you are travelling. Since the effects on the
plane are dependent on this far more than the absolute velocity, and
because it can be measured directly from the airstream, as opposed to
relative to the ground, aircraft velocities are often refered to Mach
number as opposed to any other velocity scale. I think I mentioned before
that this is some concern because the lower reasonable velocites
associated with the high Mach numbers we are talking about are within the
limit of astral speed we are discussing for the character, rendering the
point moot.

> My gut instict would be that someone astralling percieving from the plane
> would be fine. Someone astralling projecting from the plane, from it's
> frame of reference, would be fine as long as they stayed IN THE PLANE.
> Just like someone who astrally projects in a house, (which as someone
> pointed out is moving at a high speed becuas the Earth and solar system
> are moving), doesn't feel the motion. Frame of reference.

> Someone who tried to grab ahold of an aura and "hitch a ride" on the plane
> might be in for a problem. Allowing them to adjust to the frame of
> reference, they could be fine in the plane, but if they left the confines
> of the plane, they revert to the outside frame of reference.

Why? I see no reason to have the frame of reference of the inside of the
plane be any way seperable from the frame of reference of an astrally
projecting mage just outside of the aircraft, say, sitting on the wing
with his feet dangling over. At which point, if you say that having his
body on the plane makes a difference, and that that ties him to the
plane's reference frame, then the mage should be able to use a
semi-ballistic to "sling-shot" himself even faster, to his already
astounding speed that he can go if his body is at rest, plus the velocity
of the plane with his body on board. Which also means that if his body
was in flight at a speed faster than he can fly astrally, then he could
never come to a complete stop relative to the ground. Which sounds sort
of bizarre. I prefer that all reference frames be relative.

Shadowrun has placed a quasi-abitrary speed limit on astral travel for the
simple reason that probably, A) they didn't want mages to be able to go
anywhere instantly, and B) they didn't want to hang people up with complex
rules. All this talk of reference frames would probably make their heads
spin.

> Suddenly,
> they are flying along at Mach 5 or whatever, out of control, and slamming
> into all those tiny bacteria in the atmosphere. Sure, you don't notice
> them on astral when you're at normal speed, but at this high speed....
> (kind of like dust in space in some of the sci-fi.) I would give them
> about as much chance of not being hurt as someone jumping out of a moving
> car.

Again as Justin pointed out, since they are suppose to travel at speed in
excess of Mach 5 (at high altitute) already with little difficulty so
control is not a factor, so making the transition would not be a problem.
Also, the number of bacteria at even 20 miles up is well nigh less than
negligible, not that they cause a problem for a normal mage traveling at
several thousand kph at sea level, where their concentrations would be
thousands of times higher. And again, the frictionless/massless nature of
astral space makes me not want to worry about that. However, in my view,
the mage is now travelling under his own power, and is no longer hitching
on the plane, he will slow to his normal top speed..

What I see is basically, there is a speed limit that mages can travel
through the Gaisphere under their own power. Like, me, on rollerblades
can only go so fast (and for me, this is really slow) no matter how hard I
try. Now, if I were to say, grab a hold of a car, and hang on for dear
life--kids, don't try this at home--I can go much faster, but it isn't
because I am working harder, I have simply tied my speed to that of the
car. If I were to let go--I would die, but barring that--if I worked as
hard as I could, I would still slow down to my normal maximum speed.
Since a mage is basically massless on the astral, an aircraft wouldn't
even notice the presence of a hitcher.

Does this sound acceptible?

--My two yen

Jeff

> Panic and confusion for the airlines for generations to come. =)

I didn't say he was going to manifest... :P
He could just stay in the cargo compartment. Either way, he'll probably
pay off a flight attendant to let him know when they are getting close to
where he needs to get out.
Message no. 10
From: Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:19:24 +0100
>I don't think so. "Magic rating x 1000 kilometers per hour" works out to
>about Mach 5 or 6 for a mage with MR 6, so we already know that mages can
>travel at high speeds without getting hurt.

And there are those who have power foci and initiation (e.g. Faerie's MR is
about 13ish, I think), so matching and even passing the SO's would be
possible. And you could scare the hell out of the passengers by
semi-manifesting (visible but not physically present, whatever they call
it) on the wing and attacking the engine, like in that Twilight Zone thing
with the gremlin on the wing (or was it somewhere else that came from?). In
fact, Faerie's going to do that very soon.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON
Message no. 11
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:26:06 -0700
>And you could scare the hell out of the passengers by
>semi-manifesting (visible but not physically present, whatever they call
>it) on the wing and attacking the engine, like in that Twilight Zone thing
>with the gremlin on the wing (or was it somewhere else that came from?). In
>fact, Faerie's going to do that very soon.



Oh sure.. let's add more fuel to the "burn the witches" fire.. :)
Message no. 12
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Family business
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:24:02 -0700
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Jaimie Nicholson wrote:

> And you could scare the hell out of the passengers by
> semi-manifesting (visible but not physically present, whatever they call
> it) on the wing and attacking the engine, like in that Twilight Zone thing
> with the gremlin on the wing (or was it somewhere else that came from?).
>

It was both an old B&W Twilight Zone episode (with Shatner) and in the
Twilight Zone movie from the 80's.

That is a really evil thing to do. Considering that one of the characters
in my game has a severe phobia of planes, I know what to do to her the
next time the runners leave Seattle. Thank you. *grin*


See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James
(Mission Specialist for the Ventrue on Mars project.)

:)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Family business, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!