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Message no. 1
From: "Sergej R. Bailleul" <S.R.Bailleul@*********.SALFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Greetings and Apologies
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:02:45 +0000
Greetings to all,
this is Sergej locking on.
I`m the guy who posted the Attention Denver post, and I want to
apologise for doing so without checking here first. I was unaware of
this lists existence, an error now remedied. I hope I didn`t screw
anyone`s plot up.
I am now also aware of the fact that using published characters is
not well looked upon, I shall refrain from doing so in future.
For those who don`t like the idea of a dwarf kingdom under Denver,
just view this as an attempt at disinformation by the UCAS Gvt, it
wouldn`t be the first time Vyper would have worked for them.
For those who like it: great.
For those in doubt, I converted the idea from a novel published by
FASA Germany (I`m not sure about this entity`s existence, but it`s an
original German novel with no translation into English yet, so I
assume FASA has a German department). It`s a Trilogy, I can`t quite
remember in which part it is, but under the Rhein-Ruhr Sprawl
(specifically Wuppertal, I think), there is an ancient dwarf kingdom.
Part of the local shadow community, especially the dwarf part, is
aware of it`s existence and actually consciously works for them.
I thought with FASA`s "The Hole" in the Denver Box, the stage was
set for a similar scenario.
I`m open for anything from flames to constructive criticism.

Ta,
Sergej
Message no. 2
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Apologies
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:56:33 MST
I for one (since some of my characters are in Denver) would prefer
there not be a dwarven kingdom under Denver. (Of course this is a gut
reaction, more than anything else).

Mike.
Message no. 3
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Apologies
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:32:05 +0000
On 21 Nov 96 at 12:02, Sergej R. Bailleul wrote:
[snip]
> For those in doubt, I converted the idea from a novel published by
> FASA Germany (I`m not sure about this entity`s existence, but it`s an
> original German novel with no translation into English yet, so I
> assume FASA has a German department). It`s a Trilogy, I can`t quite
> remember in which part it is, but under the Rhein-Ruhr Sprawl
> (specifically Wuppertal, I think), there is an ancient dwarf kingdom.
FanPro is not a real FASA department, but does the translation of the
sourcebooks (and much own stuff that doesn't go conform with FASA IMHO). The
novels by H.J Alpers described such a kingdom, but it was _not_ known to the
shadow community, just to one dwarf who told the protagonist about it.

And I do doubt especially Denver could "hav" such a secret kingdom, since i
can't think of _any_ city worldwide (not even Hong Kong) where more
para-(hah!)-Military and espionage organizations are located. So such a
kingdowm, which would probably be under more then one of Denver's areas, would
be most probably be detected.

Just MHO.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 4
From: "Sergej R. Bailleul" <S.R.Bailleul@*********.SALFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Apologies
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:29:37 +0000
> FanPro is not a real FASA department, but does the translation of the
> sourcebooks (and much own stuff that doesn't go conform with FASA IMHO). The
> novels by H.J Alpers described such a kingdom, but it was _not_ known to the
> shadow community, just to one dwarf who told the protagonist about it.
Thanks for clearing that up, I`ve been away from Germany too long to
remember this stuff. (The story of my life, bucketloads of knowledge
but memory access problems)
> And I do doubt especially Denver could "hav" such a secret kingdom, since i
> can't think of _any_ city worldwide (not even Hong Kong) where more
> para-(hah!)-Military and espionage organizations are located. So such a
> kingdowm, which would probably be under more then one of Denver's areas, would
> be most probably be detected.
Only if they even suspected it`s presence. My reasoning is: before the Awakening
the dwarves in the kingdom couldn`t actually get out. Magic that is
powerful enough to keep out the horrors will probably be able to stay
active during the down cycle, and I doubt the dwarves` magic was still
powerful enough to work magic on such a scale. Now, before the Awakening
noone could have detected magic ( not from lack of trying, but none the less)
because there was noone who could use magic. Okay, very few and They
weren`t telling. After the Awakening it was still uncertain whether
the inhabitants actually noticed the reemergence of magic. In such a
timespan a lot of lore gets lost. If the construction of NORAD wasn`t
noticed by the dwarves (still in the downcycle with fully
operational magic shielding), the blowing up of it will most likely
have been noticed (2017 or 18; after the Awakening). There`s a good
chance they came out (once they rediscovered how to open the gates)
but lo and behold the world has changed somewhat, and the noble
decendants of the ancient kingdom are considered nothing but
misshapen. (this is only a couple of years after the awakening but
before UGE, dwarves were looked upon like orks and trolls are in the
later decades) Slightly pissed off, they go back to their kingdom and
start making sure noone finds them. But, too late, the old US of A
has already gotten wind of it (yes, there are a lot of agencies
present in Denver at that time). But the mages who assense the newly
erected shielding realise, without some advances in magical theory,
they`re not gonna get in, so they delay the project.
Quite apart from that, the Cair is situated below NORAD, which is a)
east(?) of Boulder, quite a bit away from Denver (doesn`t pay to have
the juiciest ICBM target right under a population centre) and b)
bloody deep inside the Rockies. The NORAD extension to the Cair
system is supposed to be one of the highest spots of the system. You
could only find them with powerful Ultrasound scanners and who can
tell what the Shielding does to scanners?
I don`t want to invalidate your point, I agree that there`s a good
chance they will be or have been discovered at some point, but then again,
what would be discovered, a giant cave system, so deep down it had to
be natural, although it looks strangely symmetrical here and there?
A magical phenomenon? How, if noone can penetrate earth in astral
space?
As I said, if you don`t like it, don`t believe it, that`s what
humanity has been doing all along.
It doesn`t rule out the possibility, though.

Sergej
Message no. 5
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Greetings and Apologies
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:01:29 MST
Why would dwarves build their kingdom right on the focal point of a
major fault line (one of the biggest ones in Colorado)?

Mike

(Honest, I didn't sleep through all of my into to geology class 4
years ago).

PS. You're argument is interesting, but I wonder. Locked up for all
that time? Perhaps you should think about what their reaction to our
technology would be? I still don't think there is enough to support a
dwarven kingdom in Denver. Perhaps somewhere in the Rockies, but not
in Denver. The reason people settled in Denver (back before the city
was there) was because it was the one place that all the hunters and
trappers could find. It was the one place where all the smoke
gathered. So they would say something along the lines of "See where
that smoke is? Let's meet there when winter truly sets in."

In addition to that, there are no myths that would support that type
of Kingdom in that area. One of the reasons for Tir Nan Og, is the
fact that FASA could tie in the myths and fables surrounding Ireland
and make the plausible leap of saying that elves would gravitate to
there. One of the attractions to the Dwarven kingdom in Europe is the
area they chose was rich in mineral resources and it has turned into
an industrial powerhouse. Denver isn't exactly rich in anything save
granite. (And even that, there are better spots in Colorado that
would be worth more to mine for resources). The major industry in
Denver seems to be beer and telecommunications (at least from what I
have noticed *grin*. Granted I haven't explored a large portion of
Denver, but still....)

I don't know. It doesn't feel right to me to put a Dwarven Kingdom in
Denver. Now putting it in Utah, makes a little more sense to me....
*grin*


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Greetings and Apologies
Author: ShadowTk Plot and Administrative Discussion
<PLOTD@********.itribe.net> at SMTP-PO
Date: 11/21/96 11:36 AM


> FanPro is not a real FASA department, but does the translation of the
> sourcebooks (and much own stuff that doesn't go conform with FASA IMHO). The
> novels by H.J Alpers described such a kingdom, but it was _not_ known to the
> shadow community, just to one dwarf who told the protagonist about it.
Thanks for clearing that up, I`ve been away from Germany too long to
remember this stuff. (The story of my life, bucketloads of knowledge
but memory access problems)
> And I do doubt especially Denver could "hav" such a secret kingdom, since i
> can't think of _any_ city worldwide (not even Hong Kong) where more
> para-(hah!)-Military and espionage organizations are located. So such a
> kingdowm, which would probably be under more then one of Denver's areas, would
> be most probably be detected.
Only if they even suspected it`s presence. My reasoning is: before the Awakening
the dwarves in the kingdom couldn`t actually get out. Magic that is
powerful enough to keep out the horrors will probably be able to stay
active during the down cycle, and I doubt the dwarves` magic was still
powerful enough to work magic on such a scale. Now, before the Awakening
noone could have detected magic ( not from lack of trying, but none the less)
because there was noone who could use magic. Okay, very few and They
weren`t telling. After the Awakening it was still uncertain whether
the inhabitants actually noticed the reemergence of magic. In such a
timespan a lot of lore gets lost. If the construction of NORAD wasn`t
noticed by the dwarves (still in the downcycle with fully
operational magic shielding), the blowing up of it will most likely
have been noticed (2017 or 18; after the Awakening). There`s a good
chance they came out (once they rediscovered how to open the gates)
but lo and behold the world has changed somewhat, and the noble
decendants of the ancient kingdom are considered nothing but
misshapen. (this is only a couple of years after the awakening but
before UGE, dwarves were looked upon like orks and trolls are in the
later decades) Slightly pissed off, they go back to their kingdom and
start making sure noone finds them. But, too late, the old US of A
has already gotten wind of it (yes, there are a lot of agencies
present in Denver at that time). But the mages who assense the newly
erected shielding realise, without some advances in magical theory,
they`re not gonna get in, so they delay the project.
Quite apart from that, the Cair is situated below NORAD, which is a)
east(?) of Boulder, quite a bit away from Denver (doesn`t pay to have
the juiciest ICBM target right under a population centre) and b)
bloody deep inside the Rockies. The NORAD extension to the Cair
system is supposed to be one of the highest spots of the system. You
could only find them with powerful Ultrasound scanners and who can
tell what the Shielding does to scanners?
I don`t want to invalidate your point, I agree that there`s a good
chance they will be or have been discovered at some point, but then again,
what would be discovered, a giant cave system, so deep down it had to
be natural, although it looks strangely symmetrical here and there?
A magical phenomenon? How, if noone can penetrate earth in astral
space?
As I said, if you don`t like it, don`t believe it, that`s what
humanity has been doing all along.
It doesn`t rule out the possibility, though.

Sergej
Message no. 6
From: Pete <Pete@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Greetings and Apologies
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:46:00 +0000
In article <199611212128.QAA04954@*****.itribe.net>, "Sergej R.
Bailleul" <S.R.Bailleul@*********.SALFORD.AC.UK> writes

>Only if they even suspected it`s presence. My reasoning is: before the Awakening
>the dwarves in the kingdom couldn`t actually get out. Magic that is
>powerful enough to keep out the horrors will probably be able to stay
>active during the down cycle, and I doubt the dwarves` magic was still
>powerful enough to work magic on such a scale.

Still powerful enough??? I take you are saying that the dwarves have
been locked into this kingdom since the end of the fourth world???

As far as I was aware, though dwarves have been a part of humanity they
didn't really arrive until the mana levels began to climb again, I don't
recall that they existed before.


>After the Awakening it was still uncertain whether
>the inhabitants actually noticed the reemergence of magic. In such a
>timespan a lot of lore gets lost. If the construction of NORAD wasn`t
>noticed by the dwarves (still in the downcycle with fully
>operational magic shielding), the blowing up of it will most likely
>have been noticed (2017 or 18; after the Awakening). There`s a good
>chance they came out (once they rediscovered how to open the gates)

Once the dwarves came out from their kingdom... Not so much that the
world had changed, but they've been down there for thousands of years,
and are emerging into the sixth world. They would be *coming out* from
their kingdom, equipped, armed and armoured expecting the fourth world,
with knowledge of Earthdawn Thread Magic, something that doesn't work in
SR....

>but lo and behold the world has changed somewhat, and the noble
>decendants of the ancient kingdom are considered nothing but
>misshapen. (this is only a couple of years after the awakening but
>before UGE, dwarves were looked upon like orks and trolls are in the
>later decades) Slightly pissed off, they go back to their kingdom and
>start making sure noone finds them.

No, I'd have to disagree with your reasoning I'm afraid... This implies
that the dwarves were under the city for a very long time... totally
unaware of anything that was happening above... the immortal Elves of
course would have long forgotten about a dwarven kingdom, and would not
have kept a watch on it would they??? Dwarves were born into the sixth
world as a result of the climbing Mana levels, resurgence of magic in
the world, as were elves. Orks and Trolls expressed in UGE, as I've
been recently informed, they are the only races to express. If one
dwarven kingdom under Denver survived, then others must have as well,
and I don't recall FASA stating any such thing... though I could be
wrong. Could someone confirm the Dwarven Kingdom in Germany, as a quick
flick through my Germany sourcebook hasn't revealed it.


>But the mages who assense the newly
>erected shielding realise, without some advances in magical theory,
>they`re not gonna get in, so they delay the project.

OK, so the dwarves haven't been able to get out from their kingdom, but
they are capable of keeping Mages out... how exactly?? As earthdawn
thread magic doesnt work in SR, at least not yet anyway, though I
suppose Hermetic magic is as close as it gets, how have they managed to
create the astral shield, and how are they maintaining it... They will
have to relearn their magic for starters, not that it's been working for
a few centuries anyway... And then find someway of maintaining this
barrier.. Over an entire kingdom, that implies some series magical
ability, and will draw the attention of a lot more than the UCAS.

Also, and I could be wrong again, but when something like this is
discovered, and the gates are apparently locked, it has been my
experience that mankind will try all sorts of means to get into
something, just because they can and are curious... Explosives, thermo
nuclear detonation etc... I can't see them delaying the project at all..
They'd try everything else and the kitchen sink first, while waiting for
the mages to come up with an answer... and they most certainly would set
a heavy guard around what entrances they knew of... Just in case.

>Quite apart from that, the Cair is situated below NORAD, which is a)
>east(?) of Boulder, quite a bit away from Denver (doesn`t pay to have
>the juiciest ICBM target right under a population centre) and b)
>bloody deep inside the Rockies. The NORAD extension to the Cair
>system is supposed to be one of the highest spots of the system. You
>could only find them with powerful Ultrasound scanners and who can
>tell what the Shielding does to scanners?

Who can tell what shielding does to scanners.... Shielding is magical
and scanners aren't... It's a debateable point, but I don't think the
effects would be overly impressive, especially as the dwarves would have
no knowledge of the technology they are facing, and would prepare agains
a magical, not a technological assault. Technology has a strange habit
of ignoring magic a lot of the time, simply because it has no notion
that it's there.

It would take some *very* ser magic to lock the kingdom away, and this
would most certainly be investigated to the utmost extent by the UCAS,
possibly with the assistance of Tir Tairngire, and somebody there would
no doubt inform the immortals who would recognise the magic and style
immediately.

But this is all moot anyway, as I don't personally, think it's possible
for a dwarven kingdom to survive, isolated with no power, magic or
otherwise, for several thousand years.

>I don`t want to invalidate your point, I agree that there`s a good
>chance they will be or have been discovered at some point, but then again,
>what would be discovered, a giant cave system, so deep down it had to
>be natural, although it looks strangely symmetrical here and there?
>A magical phenomenon? How, if noone can penetrate earth in astral
>space?

As I said, and something you have forgotten. The inante curiosity of
mankind... Once something is found, mankind *has* to know what it can
about it... Look what we did to the tombs in Egypt, and are still doing
in archaeological digs around the globe, something like this would be
investigated, and that investigation would not be dropped.... Any hint
of magic and it would attract massive atttention around the world, not
just the UCAS.

Maybe there is a long abandoned dwarven kingdom in the Rockies
somewhere, but it will only be legend, and I doubt that it is populated
by dwarves. Also, although I guess the rest of the world is hinted at,
(I don't have the ED books beyond the core rules, so I don't know) but
Earthdawn takes place on the European continent, somewhere in Russia I
believe. So OK, there might have been dwarves on the American
continent, but they don't appear in any legends of any civilisations
that may have occupied the USA. If anyone knows about it, Dragons will,
and they will *definately* have kept a very close eye on the kingdom,
either by themselves, or through proxies.

>As I said, if you don`t like it, don`t believe it, that`s what
>humanity has been doing all along.
>It doesn`t rule out the possibility, though.

It might not rule out the possibility of a kingdom, but a kingdom of
living Dwarves, sequestered since the Fourth Age??? I don't think so.

One final few questions, who put the barrier in place.. How was the
barrier maintained when the Mana level collapsed, why were the dwarves
imprisoned in their colony....???

I don't think this idea works... Not at all.

Sorry, just my opinion.
--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.

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