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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Invincibility
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:51:17 MST
I'm curious. Why did you bother to encrypt this?

The explanation in the beginning of the message didn't seem to justify
the need for it, and I didn't think from the post that it was really
that damaging of info.


Mike


______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Invincibility
Author: Shadowrun Interactive Fiction <SHADOWTK@********.ITRIBE.NET> at SMTP-PO
Date: 1/20/97 5:46 PM


*****PRIVATE: <good.guys.only>
>>>>>[I hope the mailer-daemon can cope with a subfile of addressees,
but on the one hand this is sort of personal and we didn't want general
distribution... but it's also important, exchanging gifts is a big-time
power deal, so I thought most of the regulars deserved to see it.

>[MUNCH]

After that we toasted each other's health a few times, and we drank a
couple to the Devil hoping he'd chew harder on Thunda's ass, and Quinn
wandered back down and we watched some more movies and ate more pizza,
none of which is important so I cut it.]<<<<<
-- Lilith <23:50:43/01-20-58>
Message no. 2
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Invincibility
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 02:24:01 +0000
In message <9700208538.AA853812270@*********.comm.twcable.com>, Mike
Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> writes
> I'm curious. Why did you bother to encrypt this?
>
> The explanation in the beginning of the message didn't seem to justify
> the need for it, and I didn't think from the post that it was really
> that damaging of info.

Because telling _everyone_ who monitors Shadowland that not only does
Blade have cyberguns in both arms, but he now may on occasion carry a
small but lethal backup revolver in an ankle holster, comes under the
heading of "revealing tactically useful information" in my book.

Meanwhile I didn't want to unduly limit it either, nor did I feel like
typing the entire TK cast list in under PRIVATE or entering a lengthy
NOT TO: line.

So I compromised as best I could.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: Mike Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Invincibility
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:44:47 MST
Let me put this another way. (But let me first say, a) thank you for
explaining in a little bit better light why the encryption was "needed" and
b) that I did enjoy the post despite my mentioning this here.)

What is a good guy? What is a villain?

What do you consider Nightmare?

Midnight, Scourge, Blitzkrieg, DragonEyes, and some others, consider
him a good guy. Diana considers him (and for good reason) a bad guy.

Scourge is corporate. Does that make him a villain or a good guy? It
really all depends on p.o.v. A fellow corporate type is going to think him
a basically good (if misguided) Dwarf. A shadowrunner is going to think of
him in a far different light.

I considered (and only a few people are still here to remember this
reference) HAMMER a villain. I consider Erik Schmidt a villain as well.
Yet to most of the German populous, they were both "good"-guys.

I object to your encryption for three reasons. One, if you feel the need
to encrypt a party post, than perhaps, not posting it is a better option.
After the fact, you give highlight mention of some of the interesting
points. The Funeral for Scarface is my point for this. It would have been
far too long to post it, and this way, others had a little bit of say on
what went on.

Two, I personally, don't think knowing about the cyberguns is really all
that revealing. Commander Drake knows down to an ounce what Cyber
Blitzkrieg has, and that still doesn't come down to an issue. I agree with
what Brad S. on this one. So what if the enemies find out I'm after them.
Let them sweat.

Three, good and evil is completely subjective. In game terms, ask Kor who
he thinks are good guys, and ask FireWraith who she thinks are good guys.
You'll get two completely different list of people. As far as I'm
concerned it went to all my characters, including the Wanderer.

I realize you were trying to get something to the general list to read
as a story (and yet keep some character secrets), but I'm finding more
and more that encryption is more of a hindrance to the story than a
solution. I find it lame on FA$A's part that they made Shadowland so
easy to locate. I am still as always trying to reduce the amount of
encryption and Not to's I use.

When I started on Shadowtk encryption was almost never used. Now it
is almost always used. What a shame.

Mike
Message no. 4
From: Brian Rogers <rogers@****.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Invincibility
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:15:07 -0600
> When I started on Shadowtk encryption was almost never used. Now it
> is almost always used. What a shame.

Times change, Mike. I say this mainly because I am in a strange mood right
now. I dont like to accept it any more than the next guy, but a lot fo the
encrypts are furthering story lines (if you want to read them) which a fairly
cool to keep up with. Using encryption lowers your characater interaction
on the list, but I think (suspect at least) that there is a lot more
interaction going on behind the scenes in private mail for some of the
outstanding pieces of work I have seen recently.

As to the "good guy" list. I believe that the good guys on that list
were people who were in on the whole thunda killing thing that happened at
the end of that story line. Which, I am happy to see is over. I really
disliked the yelling back and forth that was going on. Wasnt even very`
interesting reading for me now was Thunda all that interesting of a character
from my stand point. Not overly constructive, sorry. But, it WAS unencrypted
and anyone / everyone was able to get in on playing around in that storyline.

The list Kor would give to who are good guys and who are bad guys:

You dont want to know. I dont want to think about it that much. It
would be much different from FireWraith's list, thats for sure. Might even
be different from 'Mares list.
Message no. 5
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Invincibility
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:54:24 -0600
At 07:44 PM 1/21/97 MST, Mike Goldberg wrote:
> Let me put this another way. (But let me first say, a) thank you for
> explaining in a little bit better light why the encryption was
"needed" and
> b) that I did enjoy the post despite my mentioning this here.)
>
> What is a good guy? What is a villain?
Simple. If you think that you're a good enough friend of Lynch's to
recieve that post, you got it. If you don't, you didn't. And, since we're
all good RP'ers, there isn't going to have to be any arguement on "Well, I
thought he and Lynch were friends. I mean, I only shot at him three or
four dozen times when I worked for Thunda. I thought since things were
over..."

Mike Broadwater
Message no. 6
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Invincibility
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:53:56 +0000
In message <9700218539.AA853902275@*********.comm.twcable.com>, Mike
Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> writes
> Let me put this another way. (But let me first say, a) thank you for
> explaining in a little bit better light why the encryption was "needed"
and
> b) that I did enjoy the post despite my mentioning this here.)
>
> What is a good guy? What is a villain?

"Good guy" is anyone Lynch knows and likes. "Villain" is anyone else.
It's a quick and dirty way of telling the players which of their
characters get to see the post :)

> What do you consider Nightmare?

Haven't followed that plot closely enough (runs back too far for me to
know the history on it yet) and Lynch has never worked with/against,
met, or spoken to him.. Hence he's "not-Good Guy" :)

> I object to your encryption for three reasons. One, if you feel the need
> to encrypt a party post, than perhaps, not posting it is a better option.

A new spin on "interactive fiction" - don't write anything :) Very Zen.

> After the fact, you give highlight mention of some of the interesting
> points.

Sure, where does this end? You don't post the full debrief, but you post
some other stuff - like this, for instance. It's sort of personal and it
tries to develop the characters a little, plus it leads into other
things. It's not appropriate for general distribution, yet nor is a
named PRIVATE: really appropriate either.

> Two, I personally, don't think knowing about the cyberguns is really all
> that revealing. Commander Drake knows down to an ounce what Cyber
> Blitzkrieg has, and that still doesn't come down to an issue. I agree with
> what Brad S. on this one. So what if the enemies find out I'm after them.
> Let them sweat.

Whereas, in my opinion, a few aces in the hole can be handy, and
broadcasting them far and wide robs them of their utility.

> Three, good and evil is completely subjective.

"Good Guys" is a lighthearted reference. "Good Guys" are people Lynch
considers friends, or at least friendly acquaintances. No moral
judgement is implied.

> I realize you were trying to get something to the general list to read
> as a story (and yet keep some character secrets), but I'm finding more
> and more that encryption is more of a hindrance to the story than a
> solution. I find it lame on FA$A's part that they made Shadowland so
> easy to locate. I am still as always trying to reduce the amount of
> encryption and Not to's I use.
>
> When I started on Shadowtk encryption was almost never used. Now it
> is almost always used. What a shame.

But, then you have the problem of some people abusing the system, others
protesting violently about certain types of posts or saying various open
posts or encryptions could/should/would be broken... For instance, I
personally like the NOT TO: encrypt as a way of excluding a handful of
adversaries while leaving others able to participate. Others detest it
for its infeasability.

And there's the reality that ShadowTK's version of Shadowland _has_ to
be reasonably easy to access. Otherwise, it becomes a decker's
discussion group: how would a shaman get access, and in that scenario
why would they want to?

It's a tricky issue... but then when you have characters on the list
opposing each other, then encryption becomes a matter of necessity, and
I think it's more that the list has matured to that point that so much
encryption is seen: again, I prefer the NOT TO: for that, but others
disagree and so using it becomes difficult.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!