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From:	Mike Broadwater <neon@******.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: language
Date:	Sun, 13 Oct 1996 17:26:08 -0500

Message no. 1 At 06:01 PM 10/13/96 -0400, Nightblade wrote:
>Thanks for your commentary, Jeff.
>But I do have to say that my email is periodically checked as far as I can
>tell as there are system rules against using obscenities through the system.
>So I'll keep saying sh-t, shiznit, biznitch, drek, frag, fznuck, etc
>etcetc ... just to keep my account. However I do understand your points
>on "how do you say #&^$$## ?" But some of us do have limits.

My suggestion, again, is to use shadowrun vernacular, rather than a
bastardization of a currently modern word.

>Furthermore, I don't know if Itribe would be either tolerant or
>intolerant of obscenity on their service ... again, to err on the side of
>safety, and hopefully, be able to write well enough without having to
>use expletives.

That's not a problem. To qoute the all mighty FAQ

2. DISCLAIMER
By nature of the topic of this list (cyberpunk and gothic styles
of fiction) it should be warned that discussions often contain
violent, sexual or adult themes. The responsibility (blame?) for
each posting falls entirely into the hands of the original poster.
The listowners, postmaster, and the iTRiBE administration assumes
no liability for the contents of postings.

You are only limited by what you or your net provider feel like saying. If
you want to be anachronistic (like Lynch, Lilith and Quinn, all big late
20th movie buffs), you can swear your ass off. If you're character swears
using modern SR slang, then you still have no prob, since those words aren't
censored anyway.

Mike Broadwater
"Love us with money or
we'll hate you with hammers."
-Milk and Cheese, Dairy Products Gone Bad

From:	Mike Broadwater <neon@******.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: language
Date:	Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:59:20 -0500

Message no. 2 At 04:39 PM 10/13/96 -0700, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:
>>So even though novels aren't canon, they are a good source of flavor and how
>>things work in the SR world. If your character says swears up a blue
>>streak, and does it using vulgaraties of our time, then he'd better have a
>>good reason, because he's speaking anachronistically.
>
>Really? I _don't_ see anywhere in the canon that this is stated, and I await
>a good linguistic reason why common usage would drift that much. Personally,
>I think it's clear that FASA was pussyfooting around the implications of the
>"gritty" world view they created and were trying to write sourcebooks that
>were marginally more acceptable to the parents of all thsoe eager young gamers
>out there.
>
>In short, I see no reason why contemporary profanity ("fuck" etc.) should be
>regarded as an anachronism, and intend to post accordingly. =)

How many examples from the source books or even the novels where
contemporary vulgaraties were used? Now, how many where the SR versions
were used? I think you'll find that the ratio is lopsided. Thats not
canon, but if you're going to post like you're in SR, and you want to _role_
play like you're character is in SR, and not the real world, then perhaps it
would help to _speak_ like you were. I don't care if you swear or not. It
makes no difference to me. But it's my opinion that you lose a little
realism when your character talks that way. But hey, it's your game as much
as mine, do what you will. You don't need me to say that to do it anyway.

Mike Broadwater
"Love us with money or
we'll hate you with hammers."
-Milk and Cheese, Dairy Products Gone Bad

From:	"Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: language
Date:	Sun, 13 Oct 1996 17:12:32 -0700

Message no. 3 According to Mike Broadwater:
>At 04:39 PM 10/13/96 -0700, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:
>>>So even though novels aren't canon, they are a good source of flavor and how
>>>things work in the SR world. If your character says swears up a blue
>>>streak, and does it using vulgaraties of our time, then he'd better have a
>>>good reason, because he's speaking anachronistically.
>>
>>Really? I _don't_ see anywhere in the canon that this is stated, and I await
>>a good linguistic reason why common usage would drift that much. Personally,
>>I think it's clear that FASA was pussyfooting around the implications of the
>>"gritty" world view they created and were trying to write sourcebooks
that
>>were marginally more acceptable to the parents of all thsoe eager young gamers
>>out there.
>>
>>In short, I see no reason why contemporary profanity ("fuck" etc.)
should be
>>regarded as an anachronism, and intend to post accordingly. =)
>
>How many examples from the source books or even the novels where
>contemporary vulgaraties were used? Now, how many where the SR versions
>were used? I think you'll find that the ratio is lopsided.

And, as I said in my post, I believe the reason this ratio is lopsided is that
FASA was trying to avoid outright profanity by applying some simple lexical
transforms (bitch = slitch etc.) for appearances sake. A potentially dubious
move at best, which apparently FASA may have tried to justify later in their
novels (with that "anachronism" bit that was quoted). Personally, I find it
simpler and more plausible to say that FASA intended there to be "real"
profanity in the first place.

> Thats not
>canon, but if you're going to post like you're in SR, and you want to _role_
>play like you're character is in SR, and not the real world, then perhaps it
>would help to _speak_ like you were. I don't care if you swear or not. It
>makes no difference to me. But it's my opinion that you lose a little
>realism when your character talks that way. But hey, it's your game as much
>as mine, do what you will. You don't need me to say that to do it anyway.

Well, I would find it a role-playing illegitimacy to unnaturally "soften" my
characters' speech, and under my belief that profanity has not evolved into the
laughable (IMNAAHO) FASA jargon by 205x, I will continue using the current
vulgar argot where I my characters feel the need for profanity. If that makes
my characters more "unreal" in your eyes so be it, but be aware that _I_ find
it _far_ more unrealistic to read (much less hear) real role-players trying to
swear on their characters' behalf using what FASA's put out. I have yet to
hear or read a passage using it that did not ring false for me.

To each his own, I suppose.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict

From:	Nightblade <wgreason@*****.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: language
Date:	Sun, 13 Oct 1996 21:40:51 -0400

Message no. 4 > bastardization of a currently modern word.

The addition of "nz" to TSWE English is not _by default_ a
"bastardization" ... this comment falls into the same category as an earlier
string we had to discuss outside plotd on Africa.

If you had used dialect, jargon, slang, etc etc etc , I would probably
have let this slide. But "bastardization" connotes an inferiority
of creative linguistic thought that is explicitly _not_ manifest in the
usages I termed in a previous mail.

Again, I ask you to be a little more thoughtful in your effort to
emphasize your points so that you might not so blatantly reflect your birth,
socialization, and current status within the current hegemonic domain.

Furthermore, I only elucidate this matter for the remainder of the audience
because not one other individual found the application of "bastardization"
in the previous mail objectionable. Were I merely a sociologist I might
simply find this phenomena curious. However, as a historian, I find such
displays upsetting and would expect more from individuals intelligent
enough to utilize the cooperative fiction writers' bbs.

THAT SAID, I fall on the side of the frag, drek, and slitch folks. I thought
it was pretty silly when I first started playing this game about 8 years
ago; however, after a little practice and "getting into the role" a
little more, I found that it could be fun to use such language. NOT
MEANING TO INSULT ANYONE, because I fundamentally believe that it is just
an unreconcilable difference of opinion that has no basis in canon ...
This is just an imagination discussion ... if you can imagine the
adjustment in language occurring and are willing to play-act into it for
fitting the tacit structure of the SR canon, then you'll use their curses.

If you can't imagine that, and find such material silly, you're working from
a fundamentally different worldview, and that's fine too.

My main character will use either and both b/c, while she's a 20th Century
Rap Aficionado, she's also a product of her times.

Everyone else speaks like I do ... Standard Written English. (or more
appropriately -- Standard Written American)

I think that covers all my input to this point.

peace
Dave

(and no, the above is not a .sig ... in case anyone was wondering)

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