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Message no. 1
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:40:37 -0800
CoT peoples--

Um....now it might just be me, but don't you think blowing off an entire
tower at SEA-TAC goes under the "world-altering" clause? It might have
helped to have a message regarding, "Hey, we want to blow up a tower at
SEA-TAC, anybody mind?" If you are doing it for a good reason, and not
because you couldn't think of anything better to blow up, then I don't
have any real problem with it.

I don't want to speak for Jaimie, but I know one of his characters,
Thirstein works as a Sec Shaman for SEA-TAC when he is not working with
the Shifters (as was made clear in our Warm Reception post a little while
back). This little incident might cause our plot some unnecessary
complications, which could have been avoided had we been able to time
things better to not interfere.

The only think I object to now was the fact that you had 25lbs. of high
explosive blow the top off an entire tower. Especially since it is HE
that is strapped to a man, not tactically placed, and seemingly of
insufficient quantity, (airport towers, it would seem to me, to be one of
those structures that are way overbuilt so that they can remain stading in
earthquakes, etc.). This does make a big difference, because the simple
detonative overpressure if not right next to an important structural
member may not do much at all, as opposed to placing the explosive
carefully to shatter the structural supports (i.e. having him hug the wall
of the tower before he blows). Since it is unclear, where was this guy
when it blew?

I'll leave out the part about how the heck did he get there with several
pounds of explosives, since quite soon airports are going to be equiped
with Neutron scanners which would detect that sort of thing, let alone the
detonation electronics, and I doubt that the level of airport security
would go _down_ in the future (see the begining of the Warm Reception
post). Obviously, somebody got him past the security scanners.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 2
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:48:08 +0000
On 29 Jan 98 at 9:40, Jeffrey Mach wrote:
> Um....now it might just be me, but don't you think blowing off an entire
> tower at SEA-TAC goes under the "world-altering" clause? It might have
> helped to have a message regarding, "Hey, we want to blow up a tower at
> SEA-TAC, anybody mind?" If you are doing it for a good reason, and not
> because you couldn't think of anything better to blow up, then I don't
> have any real problem with it.
Ah... no... not really. Tower-shaking: Yes. World shaking: Definately
not. I suppose an airport like Sea-Tac would have secondary systems,
maybe even more than one tower. Such a bomb attack will have less
influence on world, or even local happenings then a major shadowrun
against a medium to large corporation, which might influence stock
market.

> I don't want to speak for Jaimie, but I know one of his characters,
> Thirstein works as a Sec Shaman for SEA-TAC when he is not working with
> the Shifters (as was made clear in our Warm Reception post a little while
> back). This little incident might cause our plot some unnecessary
> complications, which could have been avoided had we been able to time
> things better to not interfere.
Sorry, but this would mean I would have to announce any plot involving
a place mentioned in some sourcebook, or novel, as it might interfere
with some other person's planing.

> The only think I object to now was the fact that you had 25lbs. of high
> explosive blow the top off an entire tower. Especially since it is HE
> that is strapped to a man, not tactically placed, and seemingly of
> insufficient quantity, (airport towers, it would seem to me, to be one of
> those structures that are way overbuilt so that they can remain stading in
> earthquakes, etc.). This does make a big difference, because the simple
> detonative overpressure if not right next to an important structural
> member may not do much at all, as opposed to placing the explosive
> carefully to shatter the structural supports (i.e. having him hug the wall
> of the tower before he blows). Since it is unclear, where was this guy
> when it blew?
Ah... ah... careful here. You may not have noticed it, but that news
broadcast was unclear in several points, among them how the terrorist
got where he was, if he had the explosives with him (I am not a
demolition expert, but _I_'d guess 25 lb explosives would be plainly
visible on that camera... yet they were not mentioned. Where the
terrorist was, is not really important... who would use a /remote/
control to detonate explosives carried on one self?

Please... I may make errors in my posts, but _please_ assume at least
some thought in my stories, ok? :-)

> I'll leave out the part about how the heck did he get there with several
> pounds of explosives, since quite soon airports are going to be equiped
> with Neutron scanners which would detect that sort of thing, let alone the
> detonation electronics, and I doubt that the level of airport security
> would go _down_ in the future (see the begining of the Warm Reception
> post). Obviously, somebody got him past the security scanners.
Obviously Christian O'Toole/Thomas (do you remember Thomas?) was not
alone. Yeah. People jumped in and out of Chicago Containment Zone, run
the Tir borders, visit the United Kingdom without much trouble, but
much more cyberware - as this is what shadowrunners do. Airports, on
the other hand... *grin*

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------ ICQ#: 7 517 216 -------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'The only folks you |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | should trust are your |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | enemies, because you |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| know what they want.' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Thumbs, Troll Samurai|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ----(N.Pollotta)-+
Message no. 3
From: Mark Imbriaco <perlhacker@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:08:01 -0800
>Ah... no... not really. Tower-shaking: Yes. World shaking: Definately
>not. I suppose an airport like Sea-Tac would have secondary systems,
>maybe even more than one tower. Such a bomb attack will have less
>influence on world, or even local happenings then a major shadowrun
>against a medium to large corporation, which might influence stock
>market.

Excuse me? You don't think an airport bombing would affect the market?
Companies that do shipping (ie: UPS, FedEx, etc) would take a nose-dive
the day after something like that happens. The stock market works in a
large part on confidence and that's one of the things that tends to shake
it
up a little.

As an aside, I don't really see all that much wrong with this. Granted,
it is pushing the envelope a bit, and is really close to the line, but any
problems (ie: Thirstein) can be easily worked around.

-Mark
Message no. 4
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:24:13 -0800
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Mark Imbriaco wrote:

> >Ah... no... not really. Tower-shaking: Yes. World shaking: Definately
> >not. I suppose an airport like Sea-Tac would have secondary systems,
> >maybe even more than one tower. Such a bomb attack will have less
> >influence on world, or even local happenings then a major shadowrun
> >against a medium to large corporation, which might influence stock
> >market.

> Excuse me? You don't think an airport bombing would affect the market?
> Companies that do shipping (ie: UPS, FedEx, etc) would take a nose-dive
> the day after something like that happens. The stock market works in a
> large part on confidence and that's one of the things that tends to shake it
> up a little.

Not to mention shaking up the populace well more than a little bit. Not
only was the most secure location most people ever come in contact with
hit with a terrorist bomb, but the ugly name Thunda is again in the minds
of a city that was nearly held hostage only a year ago.. LSS will be
upping patrols, etc. to calm their unnerved clientelle so maybe people
should reconsider the response to any of their shadowruns in the near
future. SEA-TAC security in the near future will be going from
anal-retentive to anal-probing (j/k) trying to show that they are no
longer vulnerable to an attack like this. Something to consider the next
time anybody wants their runners leaving town. And gee, with Achilles in
town, I would be sorely surprised if a certain ammount of jack-booted-
thuggery did not occur, but then, that was probably the point (nudge-nudge
wink-wink).

> As an aside, I don't really see all that much wrong with this. Granted,
> it is pushing the envelope a bit, and is really close to the line, but any
> problems (ie: Thirstein) can be easily worked around.

Yes they can be worked around. It's just nice to hear about it before
hand. Not that everybody need reveal every last secret going on in their
plot lines, but doing something in a public place that other runners may
be using as well generally falls into something I would consult plot-D
with, even in the vaguest of terms. Usually you will have no problem with
anybody on the list, but if say, you plan to blow the Tacoma-narrows
bridge on the day somebody was planning on having a high-speed chase
across it could cause either some problems, or some ammusing story
tie-ins/cross-overs. ("Dude! They wanted my ass! Blew up a _whole_
_goddam_ bridge trying to get me!")

--My two yen

Jeff

P.S. Speaking of little buggy things...Mark, any reason why your reply
has a default 16 space index. It puts you out of the 80 column limit and
makes your replies somewhat hard to read.
Message no. 5
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:58:54 -0800
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Sorry, but this would mean I would have to announce any plot involving
> a place mentioned in some sourcebook, or novel, as it might interfere
> with some other person's planing.

Actually, pretty much, yes it does, frankly. I mean, there are "private"
places that you can be pretty sure people aren't going to care what you do
with (bar trashing seems to be a rather popular hobbie among Seattle's
shadowrunning community), but big, and/or common places: airports,
arcologies (Damn, you mean I can't drop a meteor on the Renraku
arcoplex?), bridges, halls of justice, etc. tend to fall under "common
use" and should probably get some sort of quick blurb to plotd. If you
really think it will be a problem with people saying yes, well that is
probably a good indication you shouldn't do it, or that you should come up
with your own location (bar, secret FBI program HQ [Achilles]) so nobody
would have the right to care. I mean, if those of us writers who "own"
Hayashi Biotech decide to suddenly have it disappear in a giant sinkhole
(stupid genetically-engineered moles!) that's our perogative.

> Ah... ah... careful here. You may not have noticed it, but that news
> broadcast was unclear in several points, among them how the terrorist
> got where he was, if he had the explosives with him (I am not a
> demolition expert, but _I_'d guess 25 lb explosives would be plainly
> visible on that camera... yet they were not mentioned. Where the
> terrorist was, is not really important... who would use a /remote/
> control to detonate explosives carried on one self?
>
> Please... I may make errors in my posts, but _please_ assume at least
> some thought in my stories, ok? :-)

Hey, you're the one who wrote:

> "Ah, Mr O'Toole, pleased to speak to you, thank you for your readiness
> to inform the public about your motives. Now, what /are/ your motives
> to hold the whole tower hostage, with /at/least/ 25 pounds of
> explosives tied to /yourself/?"

Since you didn't say any more about it, I figured that the image made the
point obvious. If that number is found by forensics to be correct without
there being any reason for the reporter to know that, then I suppose the
reporter in question is going to have an unpleasant visit from D'Arkan and
the gang. As for the concealability of high explosive, since I have no
idea of the density of the material, nor its composition, I can't say
further, but if you say, molded it into the small of your back, it
theoretically shouldn't be too hard to hide, especially under his
described "armored coat."

As for remote detonation, you were more than clear that the bomb was
detonated by someone other than Mr. O'Toole. I had no problem with that.
Just the feasability of it doing what you describe it as doing. I mean,
it is in, and I won't say more on that point, I was just curious.

> Obviously Christian O'Toole/Thomas (do you remember Thomas?) was not
> alone. Yeah. People jumped in and out of Chicago Containment Zone, run
> the Tir borders, visit the United Kingdom without much trouble, but
> much more cyberware - as this is what shadowrunners do. Airports, on
> the other hand... *grin*

...are generally much smaller than nation-states, or even large cities,
and have a much higher security-to-area ratio. Makes things more
difficult, but not impossible. Again, I have no _real_ problem that
somebody got high-explosive into the airport. However, it should be
definitely taken as a sign of very high ammounts of resources and talent
on the part of the Children of Thunda. Joe Shadowrunner isn't going to be
able to duct-tape a brick of C-12 to his body and waltz on into an
airport. I don't belive it.

Heck, that's why I asked, and got approval for some of my SIN-less (and
more-financially strapped) characters to cross the Pacific by sneaking
aboard a WiG heavy-lift transport aircraft. Since they were already going
to be stow-aways, bringing gear was no longer a real problem. Also, I
figure security would be a lot looser around a big transport at the docks
being loaded with apples headed for Tokyo than any passenger aircraft.
Ride wasn't comfortable since they were in the cargo hold, the food was
decent...if you like apples, but at least they didn't have to worry about
pressurization and it cost less to have the load-master look the other way
than to have to buy tickets and purchase new gear once they were on the
other side.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 6
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:55:28 +0000
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.980129092121.13630B-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
edu>, Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about
Let...
>CoT peoples--
>
>Um....now it might just be me, but don't you think blowing off an entire
>tower at SEA-TAC goes under the "world-altering" clause? It might have
>helped to have a message regarding, "Hey, we want to blow up a tower at
>SEA-TAC, anybody mind?" If you are doing it for a good reason, and not
>because you couldn't think of anything better to blow up, then I don't
>have any real problem with it.

Ok, I understand your objection but think about it for a moment.

"At least four people in the vicinity..." Now I have visited a couple of
airports in the UK. Air Traffic Control has a large number of people
inside the building and the tower itself has more than 4. They are not
giant affairs, so vicinity, allowing a blast radius of 1 meter per kg of
explosives. That's 4 people in a 50m radius. A little bit low on staff
at SeaTac are they?

When exlposives go off, they have a small residual effect of blowing out
windows. Now, you're a lone star officer at the scene. Some mook
detonates explosives. He's near the edge of the building, but just out
of sniper shot, the explosives blow out some of the windows. A sheet of
flame, flying glass.. someone says "What happened/" You reply while
running to the scene - "Someone blew the top of the tower off". Words
are used, that are not necessarily 100% accurate. :)

Sascha was also careful to mention "Tower B". What is tower "B"? It
was not called Air Traffic Control, it was not called "The Control
Tower", but Tower B...

OK, so what the heck is it?

>I don't want to speak for Jaimie, but I know one of his characters,
>Thirstein works as a Sec Shaman for SEA-TAC when he is not working with

Fine, so Thirstein will have a much better idea of what is going on.

Why didn't one of your characters (assuming association) ask?

Also, just for the record, I don't consider an attack on an airport to
be world shaking in the slightest. Airports are bombed today, they have
planes hijacked, blown out of the sky, wrecked on take off. Does this
shake the world and set everyone reeling in shock? Hardly. Many times
it doesn't even make headline news these days.

I don't think it fair to request that people ask everytime they want to
raid a building, blow up a car, rob a bank, whatever. Is not leaping
across international borders, ignoring quarantines in place by military,
visiting foreign countries without preperation beyond "buy a ticket", or
destroying churches/corporations in Europe not World shaking as well?

I think you may have over-reacted a tiny bit :)


If I or anyone else was to blow up the Federal building at Seneca,
assassinate Governor Schultz (possibly replaced in 2058 anyway), kill
the CEO of a major corporation, organise a medium to large raid on a
Corp or kill off the council of Tairngire - that would constitute Earth
shaking in my opinion.

Blowing up an anonymous tower in Sea Tac, that is not an essential part
of ATC, is not.


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 7
From: Kristling Ravenwing <kristling@*******.CROSSWINDS.NET>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:00:23 -0500
DARK aVENGER:
Also, just for the record, I don't consider an attack on an
airport to
be world shaking in the slightest. Airports are bombed
today, they have
planes hijacked, blown out of the sky, wrecked on take off.
Does this
shake the world and set everyone reeling in shock? Hardly.
Many times
it doesn't even make headline news these days.

I don't think it fair to request that people ask everytime
they want to
raid a building, blow up a car, rob a bank, whatever. Is
not leaping
across international borders, ignoring quarantines in place
by military,
visiting foreign countries without preperation beyond "buy
a ticket", or
destroying churches/corporations in Europe not World
shaking as well?

I think you may have over-reacted a tiny bit :)


If I or anyone else was to blow up the Federal building at
Seneca,
assassinate Governor Schultz (possibly replaced in 2058
anyway), kill
the CEO of a major corporation, organise a medium to large
raid on a
Corp or kill off the council of Tairngire - that would
constitute Earth
shaking in my opinion.

Blowing up an anonymous tower in Sea Tac, that is not an
essential part
of ATC, is not.

KRISTLING:
I agree. i can see how some list members would think it is,
due to seattle being a central SR city, meaning it's been
focused on. Considering the death toll and location. hough,
i'd say no big deal.
>>>>>["Smart alec quote here."
Reach me at kristling@*******.crosswinds.net
ICQ UIN: 6642462
www.crosswind.com/toronto/~kristling/ should soon hold my
webpage.]<<<<<
--Kristling (the Weird) Ravenwing, Aka Daniel
Sauve (say "SO- vey"!), Josha Dube, Ken masters, D, Samson
Primal, Josha the Strange, Dexter, Ricochet..... </>
Message no. 8
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 02:21:06 +0000
In article <v01540b04b0f6b5f085c2@[139.80.100.87]>, Jaimie Nicholson
<jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ> waffled & burbled about Let...

>there, threatening large explosions, so why the hell didn't they blanket
>the tower in earth elementals and have 'em manifest all at once and engulf
>the fragger, or maybe throw up about fifty barriers willy-nilly round the
>place, or use the fibre-optic observation/spell-casting network to cast an
>emotion control manipulation to calm him down. Or _something_. It's not
>like they didn't have time, when even an under-educated troll such as
>myself can think of a few containment methods in a couple of
minutes.]<<<<<
> -- ThunderStone <15:58:13/01-29-59>


This is not a reflection of your post Jamie, or an attack on anyone, but
it is something that I find very depressing about the way Shadowrun is
treated.

<mild rant>

Magic. Full blown capable mages are 1% of the worlds' population. This
includes Shamans, adepts and unknowns. Throwing earth elementals, fibre
optic spell casting (god I _hate_ that addition to SR) fifty barrier
spells (ohhhh, the drain) and a number of other things seem to indicate
a belief that magic is so common it's _everywhere_ not the valuable and
rare asset that five sourcebooks state. I do appreciate that certain
places are likely to employ mages. They are such a valuable asset to
security that somewhere like SeaTac would possibly be pretty stupid not
to employ them. But IMO, because of the rarity of skilled magical
people, their employment would be prohibitively expensive.

I've had this argument on Shadowrn several times over the last two years
and have no intention of engaging in an argument here. However, so many
people quote canon at me, so many people use "logic" to enforce their
points, but completely forget the fact that in the main book, Grimoire,
Grimoire 2, Awakenings, and a couple of other books, FASA constantly and
repeatedly enforce the comment that magic, people capable of casting
spells and engaging in astral/elemental/spirit combat etc blah blah blah
are a /damned/ rare species.

Your post says to me that SeaTac has a large team of
shamans/mages/adepts on call. How? By FASA canon how can that be
explained, when the UCAS government will likely actively headhunt for
mages to combat the bug threat that rocked the UCAS (Chicago was not an
isolated incident) to make certain that Tir Tairngire and the NAN never
have the upper hand in magic again. Aggressive recruiting by
corporations like Aztechnology etc. Why would a mage stay at SeaTac for
a high wage, when he could be a minor god at Aztechnology, Renraku,
Areas, the Federal Government.

I'm sorry, but the constant "magic is the answer to everything because
it's common and everywhere" is one of my personal bugbears about the
game and the way many seem to interpret "Magic is rare" to mean it's
"everywhere" in large numbers.

If, just to speculate, Magic is common enough for let's say three mages
per eight hour shift at SeaTac, an effective 9 mages covering a twenty
four hour period. Then why not employ mages in all other walks of life.
Why put up with people holding up drug stores when you can vapourise
them, why suffer the indignity of riots, when a dozen mages can cast
"alter mood" and calm the riot down to a peaceful "make love not
noise"
situation. Why is Seattle a hell hole in the face of the UCAS?

Seattle sourcebook, page 78

"Three years ago, the SeaTac Mall (part of SeaTac airport[ish]) was that
target of a bombing that killed five people. Last month the mall
president recieved a warning fromt he Black February group that another
blast would "rock that den of himan overlords and their metahuman
lackeys"

One bomb, and a threat. It happens. There are other examples in the
sourcebook of bombing campaigns, pitched gunfights and other such like.

In this case why didn't the President of SeaTac just say "Frag off. I've
got a pet mage so you can't do anything. <plbplbtplbt>?


Page 42 Seattle Source

"Since September of '49, Sea Tac has substantially beefed up it's
security by hiring Lone Star security officers and corporate guards from
Federated Boeing, Renraku, Aztechnology and Mistuhama. No one has been
able to discover why..."

"I heard that the extra security is due to threats against Seattle by
several mega terrorist organisations."

"Lone Star allegedly gives the area a B security rating...."


Why hire guards from all these places when mages are the obvious answer?

There are other examples, but this is turning into a major rant and I
don't want that. The SSB is the only reference book I have until
Seattle 2 later this year. Nowhere in the book does it mention
increased magical security at major sites. For example, The Seattle
Kingdome was badly damaged by a terrorist attack, and by a "Brawl Game".
Terrorism in 2050's UCAS is a regular thing that the corporations and
populace live with. I would imagine that their attitude would be very
similar to that of today's Europeans. It's occassionally news, but it
means nothing until it's an attrocity, like the bombing of a school bus
or a marching band of men and horses.

</mild rant>


Please don't mistake this rant jamie, I'm /not/ having a go at you. I'm
just venting steam where it's almost "safe" to do so. :)

The post is a logical reaction from someone who has a familiarity with
magic, who understands some of it's capabilities and who knows what
could have been done. Someone who is asking a perfectly valid question
based on their knowledge.


I can only say that maybe the mage on duty that shift was asleep,
occupied with an ittinerant drunken trickster, chasing a spirit, playing
chess with an elemental, stuck in the john with a bad case of the runs,
whatever... :)

As regards the comments about Thunda. It is distinctly possible that
media programs would use footage from that event to illustrate the
lunatic demands of "Thomas", they would also argue the point that there
was a "Dead or Alive" tag on Thunda's head, and that Lynch as a
government employee was doing nothing more than simply following the
guidelines laid down by his employment and fullfilling the "Dead" part
of the demands - there was no other option... A counter argument may
spirng up, but it would all die out in favour of the latest scandal,
event, court case whatever within a very short time, maybe getting a
byline later in a news roundup. This was an extremist after his 15
minutes of fame.

For instance, the crash of an orbital craft at SeaTac, leaving a nasty
smear at the end of one runway is played on in the books, but it has not
stopped people using the service. Aircraft drop out of the sky today
with frightening regularity, but people still fly, companies still ship
goods via aircraft (though most still goes by sea) and the shares of the
airlines who lose aircraft don't take a noticeable drop because 300+
people were slaughtered in some accident.

I do appreciate that a bombing _will_ have results and an aftermath,
that is not in dispute. The severity of that reaction will vary. A
tower was destroyed, not the main concourse, not one of the aircraft,
nor one of the busy restaurants or other areas of heavy population. A
place that would have been far more effective for disruption, publicity
and drama than a "tower". Holding a bar or other place hostage would
not have had the media reaction, nor the security/law enforcement
reaction required.

I'm gonna stop here, because I think I'm beginning to sound offensive
and I don't want to. :)

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 9
From: Justin Fang <justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Let
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:36:15 -0800
Dark Avenger wrote:
>Also, just for the record, I don't consider an attack on an airport to
>be world shaking in the slightest. Airports are bombed today, they have
>planes hijacked, blown out of the sky, wrecked on take off. Does this
>shake the world and set everyone reeling in shock? Hardly. Many times
>it doesn't even make headline news these days.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Um? I don't know about the UK, but in the US, airplane accidents and the
like (ones which occur in America or involve Americans, anyway) are
guaranteed ratings-getters. A big crash, particularily a "suspicious" one
like TWA 800, can stay on the front pages for weeks. Even a single rowdy
passenger who had to be removed from a plane can get covered on the local
news.

That being said, I think the incident in question was enough below the
threshold for stuff which should be announced on plot-d beforehand that I
won't complain.

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 10
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:42:45 +0000
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.980129160337.21615A-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
edu>, Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about
Let...
>> the day after something like that happens. The stock market works in a
>> large part on confidence and that's one of the things that tends to shake it
>> up a little.

Sorry Mark, but watching current day situations I don't feel that it
would have that great an effect. The companies utilising the facility
would demand greater security, tougher checks, but they would not stop
using it. Shares might fluctuate a small amount in Airport stocks, but
not the companies transporting through it.

>Not to mention shaking up the populace well more than a little bit. Not
>only was the most secure location most people ever come in contact

I'd don't want to argue with anyone, because you all have valid points.
However. In this country, Germany, France, and other countries, the
threat of bombs, etc in airports is a reality we all live with
unquestioningly. We believe in the security provided by armed police at
Heathrow and Gatwick, as do the German populace, it has no affect
whatsoever on people using the airport or goods travelling through.

A case in point was a recent campaign in this country by a nutter who
insisted on planting explosive devices in and outside a certain bank
chain, followed last year by someone picking on a popular supermarket
chain. People didn't stop shopping there just because there might be a
bomb. The US today has less experience with terrorism, and as a result
possibly reacts differently to Europe where we live with it as an every
day fact of life. In 2059, the UCAS is riddled with a variety of
different terrorists, eco-terrorists bombing corporate facilities in
objection to pollution, racists killing and bombing the race of their
hatred. Riots and pitched battles between elves and humans in Puyallup,
other events across the UCAS and CAS. Shadowrun UCAS is an environment,
as far as I can gather from the source material, that is more accustomed
to terrorism. As a result I agree that security measures would be
increased, new equipment and methods to detect explosives and weapons,
to protect the public and all important trade that travels through
public routes. But these are not insurmountable to someone determined
enough to create mayhem. A single person could, conceivably sneak into
a busy airport. I'm sure you'll agree that it is not possible to have a
100% effective system in a busy area.

>with
>hit with a terrorist bomb, but the ugly name Thunda is again in the minds
>of a city that was nearly held hostage only a year ago.. LSS will be
>upping patrols, etc.

I disagree that they would be upping patrols. They would most certainly
be investigating the situation, questioning snitches and known suppliers
of "toys" interrogating the leaders of COT, those public figures who
claim tey work for the charity that supports the deposed "human"
population.

>to calm their unnerved clientelle so maybe people
>should reconsider the response to any of their shadowruns in the near
>future.

Terrorist activities do not bring about a crackdown on drug dealing,
prostitution, theft, car theft, burglaries - they do bring in special
task forces designed to combat the terrorist threat. I don't see that
an increased response to Shadowruns is likely, unless those runs are
particularly messy and noisy resulting in multiple deaths in which case
that should happen anyway.

>SEA-TAC security in the near future will be going from
>anal-retentive to anal-probing (j/k) trying to show that they are no
>longer vulnerable to an attack like this.

Yes. This I agree with. There would be an increased presence of armed
guards. An increased security overwatch, a fast response team on 24 hour
call to deal with a repeat offence, other airports would also be on
alert status, there may be increased presence at check points and
baggage checkers prior to boarding, resulting in some delays at the
terminals, but nothing that wouldn't happen anywhere else in the world,
and nothing the people aren't used to as a result of travelling between
secure areas and insecure. A lot of travellers at airports will work
for a corporation somewhere... They will already be familiar with
checking in and the measures employed by corps to protect themselves
from industrial espionage and petty theft. Employees from the larger
corporations will be even more understanding, already well experienced
in the check points they cross when they leave the host country and
enter their place of employment.

>Something to consider the next
>time anybody wants their runners leaving town.

This is also a good point, but things die down very quickly today. A
bomb goes off in a store in the UK. As soon as forensics have swept the
area and the bomb squad has ascertained that there are no more devices -
it's back to business as usual.

>And gee, with Achilles in
>town, I would be sorely surprised if a certain ammount of jack-booted-
>thuggery did not occur, but then, that was probably the point (nudge-nudge
>wink-wink).

<grin> As if I would :)

>> As an aside, I don't really see all that much wrong with this. Granted,
>> it is pushing the envelope a bit, and is really close to the line, but any
>> problems (ie: Thirstein) can be easily worked around.
>
>Yes they can be worked around. It's just nice to hear about it before
>hand. Not that everybody need reveal every last secret going on in their
>plot lines, but doing something in a public place that other runners may
>be using as well generally falls into something I would consult plot-D
>with, even in the vaguest of terms.

That's my fault. However, the information is available. I have it
posted into the plots section of my web site. After posting into this
list that if anyone was curious to know what I'm up to they'd find it
available on my site in the Shadowtk section. The bombings are not
minutely detailed, but the plot they are associated with does contain
sufficient information that this was about to occur.

Now I realise that people don't spend all their lives nosing around my
web site just to see what I'm up to, but after the last incident with
Paul, I thought it prudent for the information to be available.

>Usually you will have no problem with
>anybody on the list, but if say, you plan to blow the Tacoma-narrows
>bridge on the day somebody was planning on having a high-speed chase
>across it could cause either some problems, or some ammusing story
>tie-ins/cross-overs. ("Dude! They wanted my ass! Blew up a _whole_
>_goddam_ bridge trying to get me!")


As regards a different comment in this thread. Yes the reporter will be
interviewed by Achilles, and most probably FBI agents from Seneca as
well, so will the Lone Star officers at the scene and other "witnesses"
including those who survived the explosion.

We (Sascha and myself) have no intention of destroying "landmarks". But
adding a bit more soot and grime to the surface shouldn't hurt too much.
Judging by the reactions to terrorist events in this country, and what I
know of European events, I expect life in SeaTac to be back to normal,
of affected at all within 12 hours. The incident old news in 24 hours,
and forgotten within a week, except by the investigating officers.

Neither of us have a heavily detailed area map, so we can only go by the
information provided in the books and on current "street maps". There
is more than one airport in Seattle on modern maps, but they are not
detailed in the SSB. Sea Tac is mentioned as a shanty town, major
airport and business centre. There is a tremendous amount of life
around the place, which is partly why it was chosen. Although security
is likely to be pretty high, who's to say how many tried what Thomas did
before he gained entry. It would be seriously boring IMO to post to the
list 40 failed attempts, increased security reports, etc. for one
successful piece of a larger plot, that revolves around one major and
several minor list charcters.




--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 11
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:42:34 +0000
In message <Pine.HPP.3.95.980129162556.21615B-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
edu>, Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU> writes
>As for the concealability of high explosive, since I have no
>idea of the density of the material, nor its composition,

Composition 4 is basically RDX (one of the most potent high explosives
available) softened by about 8% of wax and a few other additives. Its
density, is, IIRC, about 1.8 kilograms per litre or (if my calculator
doesn't lie too much) 1oz per cubic inch.

25lb of C-4 would be a cube roughly 19cm, or about seven inches, on a
side. Not impossible to hide on a person, but enough to increase your
bulk somewhat.
Message no. 12
From: Justin Fang <justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:17:58 -0800
I'm going off on a tangent here:

Dark Avenger wrote:
>Magic. Full blown capable mages are 1% of the worlds' population. This
>includes Shamans, adepts and unknowns. Throwing earth elementals, fibre
>optic spell casting (god I _hate_ that addition to SR) fifty barrier
>spells (ohhhh, the drain) and a number of other things seem to indicate
>a belief that magic is so common it's _everywhere_ not the valuable and
>rare asset that five sourcebooks state.

Except that 1% of the world's population is oh, 80 to 100 million mages.
Say 1.5-2 million for the UCAS alone. If the 1% figure is correct, then
magic *is* everywhere (in canon, anyway). Now, I happen to agree it should
be rare, but if that's what FASA intended, then once again they are saying
one thing and doing another.

>I do appreciate that certain places are likely to employ mages. They are
>such a valuable asset to security that somewhere like SeaTac would possibly
>be pretty stupid not to employ them. But IMO, because of the rarity of
>skilled magical people, their employment would be prohibitively expensive.

If 1% of those 1.5-2 million UCAS mages are have suitable talents and are
willing to work in security, that's a pool of 15 to 20 thousand people to
choose from.

>I've had this argument on Shadowrn several times over the last two years
>and have no intention of engaging in an argument here. However, so many
>people quote canon at me, so many people use "logic" to enforce their
>points, but completely forget the fact that in the main book, Grimoire,
>Grimoire 2, Awakenings, and a couple of other books, FASA constantly and
>repeatedly enforce the comment that magic, people capable of casting
>spells and engaging in astral/elemental/spirit combat etc blah blah blah
>are a /damned/ rare species.

If that's what they wanted to do, they should have thought a bit more before
tossing out that 1% figure.

Anyway, Thirstien may have been spoiled by having the Shifters around-- he
can get 5 other mages for backup just by making a phone call. :)

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 13
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:12:24 +0000
I've just re-read my last post, and it looks a teeny bit heavier than I
originally intended.

Apologies guys and gals, didn't mean to sound that arrogant. :(


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 14
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:21:18 +0000
In article <199801300236.SAA08828@****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Justin Fang
<justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about Let
>Dark Avenger wrote:
>>planes hijacked, blown out of the sky, wrecked on take off. Does this
>>shake the world and set everyone reeling in shock? Hardly. Many times
>>it doesn't even make headline news these days.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Um? I don't know about the UK, but in the US, airplane accidents and the
>like (ones which occur in America or involve Americans, anyway) are
>guaranteed ratings-getters. A big crash, particularily a "suspicious" one
>like TWA 800, can stay on the front pages for weeks. Even a single rowdy
>passenger who had to be removed from a plane can get covered on the local
>news.

Rowdy passengers don't get mentioned here, not in the news anyway.
Unless they're famous in some way, such as a pop star or somesuch.
Don't forget we have the wonderful disease of football hooligans and
lager louts on their way back from Marbella or Ibiza, so rowdy
passengers are a norm on UK flights. :(

A big crash, like the recent Thai crash gets /a/ headline slot, but
after the local headlines. TWA had a larger than normal slot because of
the conspiracy stories surrounding it, but it only arrived on the news
at the time of the event, a mention a couple of times during the
investigation with footage of the wreckage assembly, and the CIA video,
other than that - well, it happened in the US, ho hum...

>That being said, I think the incident in question was enough below the
>threshold for stuff which should be announced on plot-d beforehand that I
>won't complain.

Thanks. We thought so as well.


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 15
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:51:32 +0000
In article <199801300318.TAA09247@****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Justin Fang
<justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about Let...
>I'm going off on a tangent here:
>
>Except that 1% of the world's population is oh, 80 to 100 million mages.


??? After VITAS etc? Not quite, but I'm not going there. I'm not going
to argue, I was venting off steam. :) Ill-conceived I agree, but..
well, I have this thing about casual spell chucking in public. A public
who already have a history of racial violence and suchlike. :)


We've thrown about calculations and figures and all sorts of garbage
over on the Srn list, in the end, the general consensus is that high
magic is a personal flavour for games. Canon indicates a very low
figure for "awakened". Don't forget the 1% figure claims for _all_
awakened including adepts and magically capable but "unaware" people.
The actual figure for full /mages/ in Seattle ranges from between 30 and
300 depending on which equation you prefer.


Don't ask me to rerun the math because my abilities with math are
limited to my fingers. :) I let others do the calculations.


>Say 1.5-2 million for the UCAS alone. If the 1% figure is correct, then
>magic *is* everywhere (in canon, anyway). Now, I happen to agree it should
>be rare, but if that's what FASA intended, then once again they are saying
>one thing and doing another.


So... what's new? <g>

Well, logically 1 percent of a 3 million population (Seattle) is 30,000
people. Of that 1% or 300 are /full/ mages (Awakenings/Grimmy). If the
calculation is taken on a global scale allowing some obscure allowance
for population density in Asia (they're more numerous than us or
something) the final total actually works out a lot less. With natural
wastage the Mage/Shaman (not adept) population actually comes out to
about 30 full blown mages. I don't personally hold with the idea of 30.
300 sounds more realistic. From those 300, extract x amount for
Aztechnology, Renraku, UCAS government, Lone Star, etc etc, and the
shadow population might drop to 30


All of whom are here on the list <grin>


Like all figures the actual total can be manipulated. The 1% awakened
is a global figure, not a local figure, so the actual total for Seattle
is unknown. Until we have information from FASA regarding the
populations of places like Africa, Asia, Russia, China, it's almost
impossible to judge, one can only speculate and guess. But the
aggressive nature of employment, especially from Aztechnology and the
like who "hunt" mages for employment, is likely to keep the number on
the streets to a particularly low level.


Not to say that Thirstein, or other mage characters wouldn't know a
percentage of those, it's a good chance they will. They'll be aware of
them through astral traces, news reports etc, and eventually they'll
gravitate together. It's mainly the "magic's the answer to everything"
that starts me off. :)


>If that's what they wanted to do, they should have thought a bit more before
>tossing out that 1% figure.


It was originally used to illustrate the population of magically aware
in a world decimated by disease, famine, war etc etc. So the numbers
for population don't extrapolate too well. A rough guideline from FASA
was to ignore current population growth rates and take a population
similar to today (of a couple years ago), though heavily affected in
heavily populated areas.


It's one of those roundabout arguments that goes in lots of circles but
only comes down to the insistence of the DLOH that mages ain't everyday
fare. :)


Magic's a big thing in Shadowrun, because of it's uniqueness to the game
world, and IMO it adds a subtle flavour to the game that is lacking in
other "cyberpunk" genre games. So I don't object to it's existence at
all. In fact, in many way's it makes the game more enjoyable. Whenever
I get onto the subject of magic in SR, people usually get the idea that
I'm totally against it. I'm not, but I get "real uppity" when it's
taken for granted. It's a personal thing - I know that, and not
everyone shares my belief, and I should understand that, but I get's
real passionate about it, ya know? :) I try to instill a real respect
for magic in my players by making it rare and thereby more terrifying
when it is encountered. I mean, think about it. Take the classic
picture of a combat mage. A man who can levitate, lightning or fire
pouring from his hands, surrounded with a nimbus of power. I know damn
well if I personally met that in a darkened street it would scare the
crap out of me. :)


>Anyway, Thirstien may have been spoiled by having the Shifters around-- he
>can get 5 other mages for backup just by making a phone call. :)


No argument at all with that. As I have agreed before (elsewhere),
those capable of magic will, when they find others, gravitate towards
those of their own ability. For friendship, support, training,
companionship. Whatever.


Funny enough, the whole "mage population" thing sprung up out of a law
and order discussion on the 'rn list this time. Paul and I had great
fun playing on the ability of mages to kill with a frightening casual
simplicity (literally "with a thought") and were reflecting on the
general public's possible reaction to magic use.


The average joe on the street only knows magic from Trid programs
(Grimmy/Awakenings), so he has no understanding of the benefits of
magic. To find that these people - capable of vapourising city blocks
wander amongst the people on the street unchecked... Well. :)


Needless to say, my "OTT" reaction of "censor the mages", "tag
'em all",
"make their spells illegal" received some heated objections. :)


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 16
From: Justin Fang <justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:26:20 -0800
Avenger wrote:
>In article <199801300318.TAA09247@****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Justin Fang
><justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about Let...

>figure for "awakened". Don't forget the 1% figure claims for _all_
>awakened including adepts and magically capable but "unaware" people.
>The actual figure for full /mages/ in Seattle ranges from between 30 and
>300 depending on which equation you prefer.

Ah. You threw me off with your earlier statement about 1% of the population
being "full mages". We don't disagree much after all.

>Well, logically 1 percent of a 3 million population (Seattle) is 30,000
>people. Of that 1% or 300 are /full/ mages (Awakenings/Grimmy).

Yeah, 1% of 1% sounds about right to me.

>for population don't extrapolate too well. A rough guideline from FASA
>was to ignore current population growth rates and take a population
>similar to today (of a couple years ago), though heavily affected in
>heavily populated areas.

Well, that's bogus too. The 20th century has had plenty of war, famine, and
pestilence, but it hasn't stopped population growth--not even close. Once
you hit modern tech levels, about the only thing short of all-out nuclear or
biological war that does stop population growth is properity and education--
the four horsemen just can't hack it any more.

>real passionate about it, ya know? :) I try to instill a real respect
>for magic in my players by making it rare and thereby more terrifying
>when it is encountered. I mean, think about it. Take the classic
>picture of a combat mage. A man who can levitate, lightning or fire
>pouring from his hands, surrounded with a nimbus of power. I know damn
>well if I personally met that in a darkened street it would scare the
>crap out of me. :)

Heh. Friend of mine has a highly variant SR campaign world where mages are
very rare and people are *terrified* by them--the government drafts everyone
who displays magical talent.

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 17
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:53:28 +0000
In article <199801301926.LAA12734@*****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Justin Fang
<justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about Let...
>Avenger wrote:
>>In article <199801300318.TAA09247@****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Justin Fang
>><justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about Let...
>
>>figure for "awakened". Don't forget the 1% figure claims for _all_
>>awakened including adepts and magically capable but "unaware" people.
>>The actual figure for full /mages/ in Seattle ranges from between 30 and
>>300 depending on which equation you prefer.
>
>Ah. You threw me off with your earlier statement about 1% of the population
>being "full mages". We don't disagree much after all.

My word, a kindred spirit. :) <shock>

>>was to ignore current population growth rates and take a population
>>similar to today (of a couple years ago), though heavily affected in
>>heavily populated areas.
>
>Well, that's bogus too. The 20th century has had plenty of war, famine, and
>pestilence, but it hasn't stopped population growth--not even close. Once
>you hit modern tech levels, about the only thing short of all-out nuclear or
>biological war that does stop population growth is properity and education--
>the four horsemen just can't hack it any more.

I don't know, I still think the horsemen have at least a percentage
chance of being effective. :)

Having said that, yes, the logic used in some of the material is a bit
bogus. There are discrepancies that don't quite add together and create
a bit of a dilemma as to waht is truly meant by "reduced population". :)
I guess the only explanation is that rather than go into heavy detail it
is left that much of the continental US is abandoned back to nature,
with the major centres of population being "megacities", though the
reasoning is not followed through to any satisfaction.

Comments in the sourcebook indicate that places like China were hit
harder than anywhere else by VITAS et al. but then with 50 billion
people, that's to be expected. There are discrepencies in the source
material, but I suppose there's a fine line to creating a game universe
and real life analysis. Some things are just "explained" and that's it.
:)

>>pouring from his hands, surrounded with a nimbus of power. I know damn
>>well if I personally met that in a darkened street it would scare the
>>crap out of me. :)
>
>Heh. Friend of mine has a highly variant SR campaign world where mages are
>very rare and people are *terrified* by them--the government drafts everyone
>who displays magical talent.

Hey Paul! Does this sound familiar <grin>


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 18
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:38:41 -0800
On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Justin Fang wrote:

> Avenger wrote:

> >Well, logically 1 percent of a 3 million population (Seattle) is 30,000
> >people. Of that 1% or 300 are /full/ mages (Awakenings/Grimmy).
>
> Yeah, 1% of 1% sounds about right to me.

Unfortunately, most people around here don't like to play adepts when they
could be playing full mages. It skews the population density some.
Although, it should be considered when people come up with "adversaries"
and other NPCs. The majority of the mages/shamans out there are going to
be adepts. Which, if done right is hardly that limiting, since they are
magical "specialists" they would most likely be hired specifically for
certain jobs (i.e. conjuring adepts for elemental/spirit support, fire
elemental adepts as combat mages, Owl adepts providing overnight security
[whatever you do...don't bug them during the day], etc.). On the other
hand, full mages, with more potential, would be more actively recruited,
but also stand the greater chance to go "freelance." So, the fact that
10% of the Seattle full mage population has crossed the shadowboard
(although I don't really know that a full 30 have showed) isn't absolutely
ridiculous in my mind.

On the other hand, I do agree that there has to be a certain amount of
respect given to magic and magicians that FASA waivers about. I've said
similar about riggers, but at least there, they recently came out with
Rigger2 (happy, happy, joy, joy) which helps on that somewhat. Mostly
seems to be a difficulty on their part of thinking out the more
interesting or subtle ramifications of what they put in their sourcebooks,
that we tend to come up with.

> >I try to instill a real respect
> >for magic in my players by making it rare and thereby more terrifying
> >when it is encountered. I mean, think about it. Take the classic
> >picture of a combat mage. A man who can levitate, lightning or fire
> >pouring from his hands, surrounded with a nimbus of power. I know damn
> >well if I personally met that in a darkened street it would scare the
> >crap out of me. :)

Then again, 90% of the stuff included in Shadowrun, if met in a dark alley
would scare the crap out of me. (Awakened cockroaches, cyborgs that can
rip your arms off before you could say, "Bugger!", suicidal skimmer drones
with bricks of plastique strapped to them, etc.)

> Heh. Friend of mine has a highly variant SR campaign world where mages are
> very rare and people are *terrified* by them--the government drafts everyone
> who displays magical talent.

"The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father..." =)

--Catch you later

Jeff
Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:45:20 +0000
In message <199801300318.TAA09247@****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Justin Fang
<justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU> writes
>I'm going off on a tangent here:
>
>Dark Avenger wrote:
>>Magic. Full blown capable mages are 1% of the worlds' population. This
>>includes Shamans, adepts and unknowns. Throwing earth elementals, fibre
>>optic spell casting (god I _hate_ that addition to SR) fifty barrier
>>spells (ohhhh, the drain) and a number of other things seem to indicate
>>a belief that magic is so common it's _everywhere_ not the valuable and
>>rare asset that five sourcebooks state.
>
>Except that 1% of the world's population is oh, 80 to 100 million mages.

80-100 million magically active individuals: that's adepts and the
undiagnosed. The Grimoire suggests three to four million fully capable
magicians in the world, so figure at most one in ten of the magically
active are full mages of any type. Awakenings confirms the 10%.

>Say 1.5-2 million for the UCAS alone. If the 1% figure is correct, then
>magic *is* everywhere (in canon, anyway).

If the UCAS has about 175 million citizens (NAGNA) then that's less than
two million people with any magical activity at all, and less than
200,000 full magicians.

Now consider the aggressive recruitment by research facilities, law
enforcement and the military, and ask how many magicians Joe Blow sees
walking the streets of Kokomo.

>>I do appreciate that certain places are likely to employ mages. They are
>>such a valuable asset to security that somewhere like SeaTac would possibly
>>be pretty stupid not to employ them. But IMO, because of the rarity of
>>skilled magical people, their employment would be prohibitively expensive.
>
>If 1% of those 1.5-2 million UCAS mages are have suitable talents and are
>willing to work in security, that's a pool of 15 to 20 thousand people to
>choose from.

1500 to 2,000. Out of which you have to supply the armed forces, the
FBI, the police...

>FASA constantly and
>>repeatedly enforce the comment that magic, people capable of casting
>>spells and engaging in astral/elemental/spirit combat etc blah blah blah
>>are a /damned/ rare species.
>
>If that's what they wanted to do, they should have thought a bit more before
>tossing out that 1% figure.

And qualifying it as that's the total showing any spark of magic at all,
and that only a tenth of that number are full magicians...
Message no. 20
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:54:40 +0000
In message <199801301926.LAA12734@*****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Justin Fang
<justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU> writes
>Avenger wrote:
>Well, that's bogus too. The 20th century has had plenty of war, famine, and
>pestilence, but it hasn't stopped population growth--not even close. Once
>you hit modern tech levels, about the only thing short of all-out nuclear or
>biological war that does stop population growth is properity and education--
>the four horsemen just can't hack it any more.

Though a lot of that growth has been in the East, aided by improvements
to agriculture and medicine. Europe's populatuion is levelling out, for
instance.

Couple VITAS to some crop failures and political upheaval, and you could
quite feasably see an actual fall in population.

>Heh. Friend of mine has a highly variant SR campaign world where mages are
>very rare and people are *terrified* by them--the government drafts everyone
>who displays magical talent.

Who says this has to be highly variant? :)

Magic is a rare and powerful resource: and magic IMHO scares the crap
out of most people. Think what a malicious magician can do, and what
some of the reporting of the first magically-assisted crimes would have
been like.

If someone is known to be able to cast a spell, "he was looking at me
funny" is a self-defence justification for killing them. A magician
_can_ kill by looking at someone, and how do you _prove_ a magician
doesn't know Mana Bolt or something similarly lethal?
Message no. 21
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:09:16 +0000
In article <Pine.SGI.3.95.980130142158.14811A-100000@*****.ugcs.caltech.
edu>, Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU> waffled & burbled about
Let...
>On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Justin Fang wrote:
>
>> Avenger wrote:
>
>> >Well, logically 1 percent of a 3 million population (Seattle) is 30,000
>> >people. Of that 1% or 300 are /full/ mages (Awakenings/Grimmy).
>>
>> Yeah, 1% of 1% sounds about right to me.
>
>Unfortunately, most people around here don't like to play adepts when they
>could be playing full mages.

I can understand that. :) After all a full mage is a "teeny" bit more
versatile <grin> And I have to confess of being guilty of that myself
in having two mages in my stable of characters.

>It skews the population density some.
>Although, it should be considered when people come up with "adversaries"
>and other NPCs. The majority of the mages/shamans out there are going to
>be adepts. Which, if done right is hardly that limiting,

No they aren't, you're quite correct. If designed properly with a
little care on the character an adept or as you call them - and is a way
I hadn't considered - specialists, they are extremely effective.

>hand, full mages, with more potential, would be more actively recruited,
>but also stand the greater chance to go "freelance." So, the fact that
>10% of the Seattle full mage population has crossed the shadowboard
>(although I don't really know that a full 30 have showed) isn't absolutely
>ridiculous in my mind.

No it isn't. I don't object to the presence of Mages on the board, that
would be rather daft wouldn't it, especially where magic offers so much
colour to SR.

>On the other hand, I do agree that there has to be a certain amount of
>respect given to magic and magicians that FASA waivers about.

That's something I find rather difficult to figure out. They take such
pains to cover the rarity of magic, there are sections detailing how the
population don't know about or understand magic, how most people have
never seen or met a magically capable person etc etc blah blah, yet
never really explore the ramifications of those statements. Maybe they
just decided to leave it up to the individual gamers for their own style
of play. It's a bit of a shame IMO because so much could be explored in
this region if the mystery that is so blatant in source material was
more prevelent in the missions/modules and books.

>I've said
>similar about riggers, but at least there, they recently came out with
>Rigger2 (happy, happy, joy, joy) which helps on that somewhat.

I was a little bit disappointed with Rigger 2, though very grateful to
see it finally. It's added a complexity to the Rigger that makes them
harder to play, but adds so much more flavour to them. :) No more the
"driver", they are now a valid character and in some situations
(security systems) essential above the presence of a decker. I do
disagree with the ruling "I'm driving now, you guys can't do anything"
:)

>Mostly
>seems to be a difficulty on their part of thinking out the more
>interesting or subtle ramifications of what they put in their sourcebooks,
>that we tend to come up with.

Heh. Yeah, you could be right. :) I guess though that it is a bit much
to expect FASA to consider the wierdness that some of us can interpret
from their material.

>> >pouring from his hands, surrounded with a nimbus of power. I know damn
>> >well if I personally met that in a darkened street it would scare the
>> >crap out of me. :)
>
>Then again, 90% of the stuff included in Shadowrun, if met in a dark alley
>would scare the crap out of me.

Well, yeah, You do have a point there. I was trying to explain to
someone the other day the potential image of a Troll Samurai, steaming
down a corridor at full tilt with a large weapon in one hand, and a
Katana in the other. They objected to the concept that security guards
are likely to consider their own survival to be of utmost importance
when faced with a seven foot tall 500lb lunatic armed to the teeth and
screaming for blood. He failed to grasp the concept that security are
made from "normal people", not "we must fight to the death for our
master" Japanese samurai. :)

>(Awakened cockroaches, cyborgs that can
>rip your arms off before you could say, "Bugger!", suicidal skimmer drones
>with bricks of plastique strapped to them, etc.)

Ah, yes... Hmm.. <g>

>> Heh. Friend of mine has a highly variant SR campaign world where mages are
>> very rare and people are *terrified* by them--the government drafts everyone
>> who displays magical talent.
>
>"The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father..." =)

The corporation can be trusted. The corporation is your friend. Trust
in the corporation. The corporation knows what is best for you.


--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 22
From: Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:16:12 +1300
>It's mainly the "magic's the answer to everything"
>that starts me off. :)

For Thirstein, magic _is_ the answer to everything. Someone said of Lynch
that having a hammer, all problems look to him like a nail. Well, think how
it is when you _are_ a hammer.

Mage density... there wouldn't be many mages who find their talent and then
continue to live in Hicksville Arizona, or the 205x equivalent... their
kinfolk say "Jed, move away from there"... they head for the city and start
earning some real money. And shadowrunning mages might also wander towards
the bigger shadowy centres like Seattle, as Ice/Faerie did.
Message no. 23
From: Justin Fang <justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:29:25 -0800
Paul J. Adam wrote:
>In message <199801301926.LAA12734@*****.ugcs.caltech.edu>, Justin Fang
><justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU> writes
>>Well, that's bogus too. The 20th century has had plenty of war, famine, and
>>pestilence, but it hasn't stopped population growth--not even close. Once
>>you hit modern tech levels, about the only thing short of all-out nuclear or
>>biological war that does stop population growth is properity and education--
>>the four horsemen just can't hack it any more.

>Though a lot of that growth has been in the East, aided by improvements
>to agriculture and medicine. Europe's populatuion is levelling out, for
>instance.

Well, yes, that's basically the result of properity and education. The
projections I've seen have global population leveling off at between 8-11
billion people late next century.

>Couple VITAS to some crop failures and political upheaval, and you could
>quite feasably see an actual fall in population.

Probably only briefly. Influenza pandemic of 1918-19 killed more people
than World War 1, but had little long-term effect on population growth.
Same with the famine caused by Mao's Great Leap Forward, which killed up to
30 million people in 1958-60. Birth rates tend to go up in the aftermath
of a big war/famine/epidemic ("baby boom").

>>Heh. Friend of mine has a highly variant SR campaign world where mages are
>>very rare and people are *terrified* by them--the government drafts everyone
>>who displays magical talent.

>Who says this has to be highly variant? :)

Well, all the *other* stuff that's different, like the world premise,
world history, how magic and metahumans work... :)

>Magic is a rare and powerful resource: and magic IMHO scares the crap
>out of most people. Think what a malicious magician can do, and what
>some of the reporting of the first magically-assisted crimes would have
>been like.

Yup.

>If someone is known to be able to cast a spell, "he was looking at me
>funny" is a self-defence justification for killing them. A magician
>_can_ kill by looking at someone, and how do you _prove_ a magician
>doesn't know Mana Bolt or something similarly lethal?

With difficulty. I suppose you could use a Truth or Mindprobe spell, but
I don't think those aren't admissable as evidence in UCAS courts.

Jeffery Mach wrote:
>"The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father..." =)

Heh. But Rob doesn't watch Babylon 5, so any resemblence is purely
coincidental.

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 24
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Let...
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 02:50:22 +0000
In article <v01540b07b0f8360ad04e@[139.80.100.87]>, Jaimie Nicholson
<jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ> waffled & burbled about Let...
>>It's mainly the "magic's the answer to everything"
>>that starts me off. :)
>
>For Thirstein, magic _is_ the answer to everything. Someone said of Lynch
>that having a hammer, all problems look to him like a nail. Well, think how
>it is when you _are_ a hammer.

To a mage I agree totally. I'm not commenting on that, just the strange
insistence of certain FASA releases to employ that fact seemingly
endlessly. Also the strange insistence of some people, on a different
list (as well as occassional posts in tk) <g> That there is no viable
alternative to magic. A post from a mage or a character who works with
a mage and knows their power would question such things, wondering why
magic isn't used to solve certain problems, but for others and this
includes many companies/organisations, it is financially more viable to
turn to more mundane methods. I always find that risking mages in
"security teams" a strange desire considering their intrinsic value to
the corp/company/organisation who is fortunate enough to own one. I
mean, why have FRT/HTRT when two mages could achieve the same thing,
with a lot less mess. :)

>Mage density... there wouldn't be many mages who find their talent and then
>continue to live in Hicksville Arizona, or the 205x equivalent... their
>kinfolk say "Jed, move away from there"...

A new kind of black gold, texas tea, whatever. :)

>they head for the city and start
>earning some real money. And shadowrunning mages might also wander towards
>the bigger shadowy centres like Seattle, as Ice/Faerie did.

Oh yeah, no argument there at all. :)

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)

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