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Message no. 1
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: magic question PROOF
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:03:44 -0700
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Justin Fang wrote:

> Jeffrey Mach wrote:

> Just to make things even more complicated, what if the wings are an
> illusion? If it's just for "coolness" effect, I'd be tempted to allow it
> (with maybe a slight penalty to the drain), but other's might disagree.

I'd rather not mix Illusions and Manipulations. That gets rather iffy,
because where does a physical illusion end and a manipulation begin? The
answer may be clear enough if one were to poke and prod (illusionary wings
wouldn't bleed), but frou the outside, there may not be much difference.
However, the different classes of spells seem to be pretty clearly
deliniated.

> I think the answer is similar to the related question, does an elemental
> or nature spirit exist before a summoner conjures it? I don't know if
> there's an offical answer to that one, but my guess is that when you
> conjure an ordinary (non-free, non-ally) spirit, you are taking a small
> piece of... something (maybe a sort of uber-spirit, maybe the metaplane
> itself) and giving it a bit of individuality. So ordinary spirits, at
> least, exist before they're summoned but not really as independent
> entities. I think.

Hmmmm. I'm tempted to agree with this argument, but then they talk about
how, if an Elemental has been summoned, but is not actively in service
then they return to their home metaplane to await the call of their
summoner for the next service. Could the fragment return to the whole and
yet still be able to be called back if it were not somehow an individual?
Then again, there doesn't seem to be a "population" of elemental spirits
that becomes depleted when too many spirits are summoned, so in this case
your view makes sense. An ambiguous fact is that any spirit that goes
free, if it is to be banished, a conjurer can learn its true name. So,
like, when does it get its name? I suppose as soon as it becomes an
individual spirit, it gets a name. But again we are left with chicken and
egg.

> >This seems to indicate something different. How can something that
> >doesn't exist yet be "drawn" from anywhere? And why would something
tha
> >started out as a piece of yourself want to hurt you? (Would an element of
> >patri-/matricide be even thinkable?) The best way I can see rectifying
> >this is that there is a spirit out there somewhere first, but then during
> >the ally ritual, the spirit is conjured and transformed (empowered?) into
> >a new form as specified by the ally formula and bound into the new form
> >much like the ally power of binding it into a familiar animal.
>
> >Do people agree with this, or are there other opinions?
>
> Hmm. It's a reasonable interpretation. I might look at it slightly
> differently, though. I think that when you conjure an ally, you are taking
> a ordinary spirit, shaping it into the form specified by the formula, and
> giving it what is basically a piece of your "soul" so that it becomes an
> sentient entity.

I like this interpretation. But unfortunately it doesn't answer the basic
question. Is an oridinary spirit an individual that has existance before
it is conjured?

> Also, there doesn't have to be one right answer. Maybe one ally will
> remember an existence before becomeing an ally and another won't.

Okay folks, I just spent a good deal of time pouring through the ShadowRun
magical references. Finally, something that isn't so ambiguous:

"Spirits swim in the energies of magic like dolphins--or sharks-- in the
bosom of the ocean. Conjuring Skill unlocks the gates between the planes
to admit spirits to the physical plane." (Grimoire II pg. 64)

That seems pretty clear. You can't admit something to the physical plane
that didn't exist before, nor can it "swim" in the energy of magic unless
it had some form of existance as an individual. I knew I didn't come up
with the idea on my own, but it was a subconscious thing. I suppose there
is some sort of meta-planar ecology that keeps the population of spirits
sufficient that summoners need not worry. Phew.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 2
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: magic question PROOF
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:20:44 -0600
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jeffrey Mach wrote:

> An ambiguous fact is that any spirit that goes
> free, if it is to be banished, a conjurer can learn its true name. So,
> like, when does it get its name? I suppose as soon as it becomes an
> individual spirit, it gets a name. But again we are left with chicken and
> egg.
>

From the rules in Grimoire II, a free spirit gets its true name upon the
instant of going free, same time it gets its first special power(s).


Just as my 2 cents, I run my game that spirits do not have much
personality or individuality when first summoned. However, if you keep
summoning the same spirit over and over and using it over and over, it
gains more personality. I've had mages in my game who would keep
re-summoning the spirits in their stable to get more services rather than
summoning several different spirits. (The rules allow you to perform a
summoning ritual on a spirit already in your service in order to increase
the number of services owed.) These spirits gained peronality over time,
especially as the player named them. (Not true names, but the spirits
grew in personality around their names, until one of them even appeared
physiclaly different than the others and "talked" with an accent becuase
he had been in use so long.)

I also believe that these spirits remember what has been done to them and
what they have been used for. A spirit used as cannon fodder or used for
sucking up drain will be MORE likely to attack its summoner than one who
was treated well and who was not sent against opponents it was guaranteed
to loose against.

As a side note, I also allow the re-summoning of the same watchers over
and over. Again, they begin to take on more personality and shape. I ran
a character as a player that had been summoning the "same" watcher since
grade school. The watcher had a name, personality quirks, and a history.
(Well, a history with the character.) This was both good and bad. Sure
the watcher was advantageous at times, but the charater was also loath to
risk the watcher becuase he was an "old friend".


I also rule that spirits summoned over and over are more likely to go free
as they have more individuality.



See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)

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