Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject:	Mental adepts
Date:	Sat, 24 May 1997 11:05:35 +1200

Message no. 1 I've been thinking about using a sort of variant on the physad... a mental
adept. This would follow all the physad rules, but instead of increased
physical attributes and a bonus to physical skills, this character type
could choose from increased mental attributes and extra dice in knowledge
and technical skills.

An example of this type of character, the one that I want to use, would be
Donald MacKenzie, god-like chess player, who uses his mental adept
abilities to be that good. He has a little cyberware (about 250 MP memory,
level 1 encephalon, softlink, all beta grade), and such mentad powers as
Increased chess dice, Increased intelligence and Enhanced centering (social
skills).

His headware is disabled during play according to the guidlines set out in
2022 for cybered players. There is some argument over whether the magically
active should be allowed to play in international chess tournaments, and
what steps should be taken to prevent skewing of the results, but so far
there have been no guidelines laid down by the powers that be, and Donald
has slipped through the cracks.

For the technical minded, though this feels like it might be more
appropriate for ShadowRn, here is an idea of some of the powers would be:

Astral perception: as the physad ability (same cost as for a physad, SRII)

Attribute boost: as in Grimoire II, but for mental attributes (same cost as
for physads in Grimire II).

Centering: base ability is to centre on knowledge skills, can take the
physad ability of Enhanced Centering in technical or social skills (costs 2
points each, as in Grimoire II).

Increased initiative: same as the physad ability, but comes from increased
mental speed and neural improvements (cost same as physad, SRII).

Increased mental attributes: can increase one or more of the three mental
attributes (same costs as the physical adept bonus physical attributes,
SRII).

Increased skill dice: can have extra dice in technical, knowledge, or
social skills (Technical skills: 0.5 per die, Knowledge skills: 0.25 per
die, Social skills: 0.5 per die).

Can't think of any more.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON

From:	Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Mental adepts
Date:	Fri, 23 May 1997 17:51:15 -0700

Message no. 2 On Sat, 24 May 1997, Jaimie Nicholson wrote:

> I've been thinking about using a sort of variant on the physad... a mental
> adept. This would follow all the physad rules, but instead of increased
> physical attributes and a bonus to physical skills, this character type
> could choose from increased mental attributes and extra dice in knowledge
> and technical skills.

I guess, what I'd have to ask is what do you actually gain from this? In
other words, wouldn't just using karma to purchase additional skills and
attributes give you more for less? The only other items are Astral
perception, but then you might as well be an astral adept and increased
initiative could as easily come from cyber.

In other words, is it that necessary that Mr.McKenzie's abilities have a
magical basis and not "simply" brilliance and dedication to his sport?

I have a more basic problem with centering and boosting working for
knowledge, technical, or social skills. Other than just for comedy's
sake: (at a wine tasting party) "Thats a....humina humina
humina...Chateau LaFete Rothchilde '21, is it not?" Magic, I can see
imparting someone with more strength and coordination, a matter of energy
really, but I don't see it giving them knowledge that they otherwise
wouldn't have (sans a specific detection spell of course). Nor do I see
it able to turn an absolute bore into the life of the party (social skills
or Charisma boost). I guess I just feel that magic doesn't work that way
in the shadowrun universe, and there is probably a solid reason why the
FASA creators specifically prevented PhysAds from getting those sorts of
things. Note that a _Physical Adept_ is a bit of a misnomer, only in that
they direct their magic inward upon themselves, and not that PhysAds only
have physical results from their manipulation of magic. I know this is a
handwaving argument, and I wish I could back it with some more solid
grounding, but until I can think of something better, this is what I
think.

I can't say that it is a truly bad or horrific idea, but I just don't see
how magic could work that way.

> His headware is disabled during play according to the guidlines set out in
> 2022 for cybered players. There is some argument over whether the magically
> active should be allowed to play in international chess tournaments, and
> what steps should be taken to prevent skewing of the results, but so far
> there have been no guidelines laid down by the powers that be, and Donald
> has slipped through the cracks.

Hmmmm.... Well, as long as you don't try to mindprobe your opponent into
revealing his strategy, nor control him into making a move against his
will, I don't really see why the chess community would have a problem with
a magically active chess player.

--My two yen

Jeff

From:	Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject:	Re: Mental adepts
Date:	Sat, 24 May 1997 13:25:22 +1100

Message no. 3 >I guess, what I'd have to ask is what do you actually gain from this? In
>other words, wouldn't just using karma to purchase additional skills and
>attributes give you more for less?

I figured chess would be a knowledge type skill, thusly you can get 4 extra
dice for your one point of magic... that'd cost a hell of a lot of karma.

>The only other items are Astral
>perception, but then you might as well be an astral adept and increased
>initiative could as easily come from cyber.

Neither of those add themselvs to chess ability though... they're not
really important in this case.

>In other words, is it that necessary that Mr.McKenzie's abilities have a
>magical basis and not "simply" brilliance and dedication to his sport?

I wouldn't say necessary, but for the whole controversy thing to work,
there has to be something controversial about his abilities.

>Magic, I can see
>imparting someone with more strength and coordination, a matter of energy
>really, but I don't see it giving them knowledge that they otherwise
>wouldn't have (sans a specific detection spell of course).

The extra dice would probably work by allowing the mentad to learn it
better in the first place, and the centering would enhance recall of the
knowledge (useful in exams).

>Nor do I see
>it able to turn an absolute bore into the life of the party (social skills
>or Charisma boost).

Yeah, the social one would be harder to explain. But there is an Increase
charisma spell.

>I can't say that it is a truly bad or horrific idea, but I just don't see
>how magic could work that way.

Spellcasting can have similar effects... once again, the attribute boosting
spells as an example.

>Hmmmm.... Well, as long as you don't try to mindprobe your opponent into
>revealing his strategy, nor control him into making a move against his
>will, I don't really see why the chess community would have a problem with
>a magically active chess player.

If a player has the Increase intelligence +4 spell (increase attribute is
getting heavy example duty today, isn't it) locked or quickened, I think
that'd make him/her a little better than usual. But all of these could be
monitored and prevented. Someone like MacKenzie, as a mentad, can't turn
off his abilities, nor do they necessarily appear obvious in the astral.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mental adepts
Date:	Sat, 24 May 1997 00:45:09 -0700

Message no. 4 > >Magic, I can see
> >imparting someone with more strength and coordination, a matter of energy
> >really, but I don't see it giving them knowledge that they otherwise
> >wouldn't have (sans a specific detection spell of course).

> >Nor do I see
> >it able to turn an absolute bore into the life of the party (social skills
> >or Charisma boost).

> Yeah, the social one would be harder to explain. But there is an Increase
> charisma spell.

Magic's more than just tampering with the laws of thermodynamics; you
could make the case that it's all about perceiving patterns (in some
cases, the pattern of a fireball.)

In the case of the mentad and social skills, it's all about perceiving
the pattern of conversation and knowing where to fit in. SR magic
doesn't focus on social skills, but that's mostly because it's an
action game. I personally find the thought that at least one
archetype might have all 957-and-counting etiquette skills to be
charming. :)

Theory skills can be seen in a similar light -- not to mention there are
spells such as Analyze Device out there. Originally I was thinking of
vehicle components, but (sigh) that ports over to computer terms too --
and I fear the mentad/superdecker combo (and someone was just ranting
about the physad/decker combo).

Knowledge skills are perhaps the most difficult to come to grips with -
theory provides a general outline, but the pure datum that the Magna
Carta was signed in 1215 isn't really magically available at all.
Can't ask a spirit for it, can't cast Detect History -- could do a
mindprobe and hope someone nearyb knows, but that's as close as you
come.

> >I can't say that it is a truly bad or horrific idea, but I just don't see
> >how magic could work that way.

My concern isn't whether or not magic could work that way (because you
pretty much can do anything the mentad can do already). Differentiating
the mentad from the physad seems imperative. Perhaps because all the
abilities you mention are currently usable by physads (with the
exception of increased mental attributes, which could be seen as an
either/or swith) the two seem very much the same.

There are plenty of other abilities to go along with the mentad -
increased physical senses, empathy (probably my first choice for a
mentad!), iron will, perhaps sixth sense and spell shroud.

You'd probably want to dummy up some home-brew powers if you wanted to
make a definite split between physads and mentads (I'd also strip the
physad of the more mental abilities and make them available only to the
mentad). You might want a limited mindprobe ability, a 'psychic punch'
that does better stun damage, maybe some form of Mask or Disregard,

But as it stands, I don't see a striking need for the mentad, no, because
the physad handles almost all the workload already.

-Matt

From:	Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject:	Re: Mental adepts
Date:	Sat, 24 May 1997 20:39:35 +1200

Message no. 5 >and I fear the mentad/superdecker combo (and someone was just ranting
>about the physad/decker combo).

Good point... my man MacKenzie wasn't going to be one, but I can see the
risk that one would arise.

>Knowledge skills are perhaps the most difficult to come to grips with -
>theory provides a general outline, but the pure datum that the Magna
>Carta was signed in 1215 isn't really magically available at all.
>Can't ask a spirit for it, can't cast Detect History -- could do a
>mindprobe and hope someone nearyb knows, but that's as close as you
>come.

Centering would enable the recall of the exact circumstances at the time he
learnt it... goes into a trance, experiences perfect recall of the event.
Extra dice means he learnt it better back when he was spending karma on it,
and that's why there's the limit to number of extra skill dice, being equal
to the base skill. But maybe a reduced karma cost for learning the skill
should apply instead.

>My concern isn't whether or not magic could work that way (because you
>pretty much can do anything the mentad can do already). Differentiating
>the mentad from the physad seems imperative. Perhaps because all the
>abilities you mention are currently usable by physads (with the
>exception of increased mental attributes, which could be seen as an
>either/or swith) the two seem very much the same.

The extra dice thing is the main difference I see.

>There are plenty of other abilities to go along with the mentad -
>increased physical senses, empathy (probably my first choice for a
>mentad!), iron will, perhaps sixth sense and spell shroud.

Where were you when I was trying to think of more powers this morning? My
brain just wouldn't spit any out, though spell resistance to controlling
manipulations had crossed my mind.

>You'd probably want to dummy up some home-brew powers if you wanted to
>make a definite split between physads and mentads (I'd also strip the
>physad of the more mental abilities and make them available only to the
>mentad). You might want a limited mindprobe ability, a 'psychic punch'
>that does better stun damage, maybe some form of Mask or Disregard,

More good ideas, though the psychic punch doesn't right... these guys have
continuously running powers, not one shot things.

>But as it stands, I don't see a striking need for the mentad, no, because
>the physad handles almost all the workload already.

Maybe in this changed idea you like it more then... remember that it
doesn't have to be defined... the powers and their level need to be
revealed, Donald MacKenzie is described by the media as "who appears to be
some kind of Mental Adept", in a humourously exasperated tone at the end of
the article, and that's all we need to know.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD
JAIMIE NICHOLSON

From:	Kristling the Weird <kristling@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mental adepts
Date:	Thu, 29 May 1997 16:46:29 -0400

Message no. 6 Jaimie Nicholson wrote:
>I've been thinking about using a sort of variant on the physad... a mental adept....
"LOT o' Stuff Deleted for space<
Jamie, check out gurth's plastic warriors site to get some rules on such
adepts.... as for list acceptance....

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer