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Message no. 1
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 04:31:39 -0500
> <snipped lots>
> >>> I might be interested in getting Jett involved with that story line.
> >>> She's been away for a while, and while she was away, she kind of died.
> >>> Now, she's a free spirit trapped in her own body. Because she's
> >>> technically dead and looks pretty creepy, a lot of people seem to
> >>> mistake her for a vampire. Think this might be fun to play with?
> >>Uh.... And how does that work exactly?
> >
> >Um, yeah...how _does_ that work?
>
> Is that like cybermancy with out the cyber?
>
> Kaching! yes, that's very much what it's like. Her spirit was forced to stay
> in her body at the moment she would have died, and she became reanimated. I
> think maybe I made a mistake calling her a "free spirit" cause she's really
> not, but if you get down into the mechanics we used in-game, that was the
> closest I could come. Technically she's a ghost Inhabiting a body, and yes, I
> went through HELL in the game to keep her from dying permanently. Can you say
> Rating 6 astral quest?

> But yeah, it's something of a cybermantic thing. Her soul is held in her body
> by magical, technically unnatural means. She's not decomposing or rotting,
> she's just so weird that even mundane people know there is something not quite
> right about her. It's given her a bit of a power boost physically, and given
> her one or two free-spirit-like powers (personal concealment and the enhanced
> physical attributes, but also a low level of permanent Alienation), but at a
> pretty high cost both psychologically and physically. (Jett no longer has
> physical eyes).

If anyone REALLY has a problem with this, for cripes sake let me know so I can
adjust the character accordingly. Necromancy isn't really covered in depth in
Shadowrun (at least not yet: I'm waiting for Tim Bradley to get the go-ahead and
publish his supplement!) and I understand if it's TOO out-of-the-ordinary. I
know it's unconventional, but it does work.

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 2
From: Grifter13 <sids@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:51:35 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
To: PLOTD@********.ITRIBE.NET <PLOTD@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 1:29 AM
Subject: Okay, about Jett...


>> <snipped lots>
>> >>> I might be interested in getting Jett involved with that story line.
>> >>> She's been away for a while, and while she was away, she kind of
died.
>> >>> Now, she's a free spirit trapped in her own body. Because she's
>> >>> technically dead and looks pretty creepy, a lot of people seem to
>> >>> mistake her for a vampire. Think this might be fun to play with?
>> >>Uh.... And how does that work exactly?
>> >
>> >Um, yeah...how _does_ that work?
>>
>> Is that like cybermancy with out the cyber?
>>
>> Kaching! yes, that's very much what it's like. Her spirit was forced to
stay
>> in her body at the moment she would have died, and she became reanimated.
I
>> think maybe I made a mistake calling her a "free spirit" cause she's
really
>> not, but if you get down into the mechanics we used in-game, that was the
>> closest I could come. Technically she's a ghost Inhabiting a body, and
yes, I
>> went through HELL in the game to keep her from dying permanently. Can you
say
>> Rating 6 astral quest?
>
>> But yeah, it's something of a cybermantic thing. Her soul is held in her
body
>> by magical, technically unnatural means. She's not decomposing or
rotting,
>> she's just so weird that even mundane people know there is something not
quite
>> right about her. It's given her a bit of a power boost physically, and
given
>> her one or two free-spirit-like powers (personal concealment and the
enhanced
>> physical attributes, but also a low level of permanent Alienation), but
at a
>> pretty high cost both psychologically and physically. (Jett no longer has
>> physical eyes).
>
>If anyone REALLY has a problem with this, for cripes sake let me know so I
can
>adjust the character accordingly. Necromancy isn't really covered in depth
in
>Shadowrun (at least not yet: I'm waiting for Tim Bradley to get the
go-ahead and
>publish his supplement!) and I understand if it's TOO out-of-the-ordinary.
I
>know it's unconventional, but it does work.
>
>--Jett
>


Before I say anthing about this 'process' i would like to know more about
the pros and cons that your character has received. You see I used to play
Rifts so I have had my fill of Munchkins...ah how I do miss my Mutant Cosmo
Knight that was stronger than all the Gods put togther and about the same
MDC of a medium sized battle curiser and was invulnerable to just about
every kind of weapon. While at the same time being fully legal...ah Rifts
the game of Munchkins.

Chris
Message no. 3
From: "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)" <fpelletier@******.USHERB.CA>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:17:36 -0500
Grifter13 <sids@*********.CA> once wrote,


>Before I say anthing about this 'process' i would like to know more about
>the pros and cons that your character has received. You see I used to play
>Rifts so I have had my fill of Munchkins...ah how I do miss my Mutant

Now wait a goddamn minute. I've had the pleasure of playing with Jett for
almost a year. I played with her characters, and never once was Jett's power
put into question? Not to mention the dreaded Munchkin tag. Before you
talk 'bout munchies and everything, look at the characters, look at the
history, the experience. And besides, goddamn it, this is a writing list.
Nobody uses character sheets anyways. The only munchies that exist are the
one's you make, and you soon run out of people who'd be willing to write
with you.

So don't worry. If people are writing here, they do not qualify as
munchies.


Trinity
----------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
fpelletier@******.usherb.ca

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" - M. Gandhi

Trinity on the Undernet and EFNet
Message no. 4
From: Brion David Wauters <bdw8@****.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:41:13 -0700
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Frank Pelletier (Trinity) wrote:

> So don't worry. If people are writing here, they do not qualify as
> munchies.

Well..not right now to my knowledge. They're where a few old characters
who where rather munchkinish (initiate grade adepts who don't know they
have adept abilities and similar foolishness).

Brion
Message no. 5
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:39:07 -0500
> <lotsa snips>

Thanks for sticking up for me, Trin. :)

Anyway. More about Jett, stats-wise? She's about on par with your average troll,
though she's human. Well within the range of a highly experienced character with
a bunch of cyber. She is a low-grade initiate magical adept (shamanic), but
seldom uses magic. She's pretty messed up psychologically, and is nowhere NEAR
invincible. For one thing, she's permanently Alienated, force 3. It takes its
toll when you have to concentrate damn hard just to be noticed and to do
"normal" things. It makes you harder to hurt, but, it's a tradeoff. It's also
interesting to play a character who is technically both living and dead, who is
aware that she doesn't quite fit in either world.

Also, any free spirit powers she might have had operate at an extremely low
level because, due to the cyber that her body has, her essence is shot right to
hell. So it's not much more of an edge than a couple quickened spells or spell
locks would be.

I'd like to point out that she's also one person, with no huge government
organizations backing her. She doesn't own a corp. She's not military elite.
She's a lone runner, just a damn good one. And, IMHO, I have never played her as
a powermonger. I'm more interested in dealing with her life, her mind, and her
friends than I am about any potential combat-goddess effect. I've had a chance
to look at Jett as both a player and a GM, and I've found her balanced, and a
really great character and person. I enjoy getting inside her mind.

But as I said, it's your call. Maybe talk to some of the people who were around
when I posted to the list before. I will say that I was a writer and an RPer
before I ever picked up a game like Shadowrun. *sigh* This is ironic. I try to
MINIMIZE talk about Jett's stats and focus on the character, but I have to
defend her as a character because of her stats. :/

One more question. What the hell IS RIFTS, anyway?

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 6
From: "Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:17:32 -0800
According to Jett:
>> Kaching! yes, that's very much what it's like. Her spirit was forced to stay
>> in her body at the moment she would have died, and she became reanimated. I
>> think maybe I made a mistake calling her a "free spirit" cause she's
really
>> not, but if you get down into the mechanics we used in-game, that was the
>> closest I could come. Technically she's a ghost Inhabiting a body, and yes, I
>> went through HELL in the game to keep her from dying permanently. Can you say
>> Rating 6 astral quest?

Oh, that's it? I would have had a higher Target than that, like 12-Essence+X,
but that's beside the point.

>>But yeah, it's something of a cybermantic thing. Her soul is held in her body
>>by magical, technically unnatural means. She's not decomposing or rotting,
>>she's just so weird that even mundane people know there is something not quite
>>right about her. It's given her a bit of a power boost physically, and given
>>her one or two free-spirit-like powers (personal concealment and the enhanced
>>physical attributes, but also a low level of permanent Alienation), but at a
>>pretty high cost both psychologically and physically. (Jett no longer has
>>physical eyes).

I see. I trust that this character needs periodic "adjustments" to keep things
functioning? IIRC, Cybermancy requires regular maintenance - I would find it
a bit extreme to allow the enchantments that keep a person bound to a body be
permanent. What do other listmembers think?

>If anyone REALLY has a problem with this, for cripes sake let me know so I can
>adjust the character accordingly. Necromancy isn't really covered in depth in
>Shadowrun (at least not yet: I'm waiting for Tim Bradley to get the go-ahead
>and publish his supplement!) and I understand if it's TOO out-of-the-ordinary.
>I know it's unconventional, but it does work.

Necromancy is getting really into the wild-and-wooly areas of Shadowrun,
towards the areas where the system begins showing signs of strain. Just like
Shadowrun is not good at handling objects traveling with hypersonic speed or
exploding with more than certain amounts of yield, Shadowrun's magic system
begins to break down when magic of too outre a nature or too massive a scale
comes into play. I don't say that it's out of the question, but I'd say that
a lot of careful thought is necessary to keep it from getting out of hand.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 7
From: Grifter13 <sids@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:38:33 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Pelletier (Trinity) <fpelletier@******.USHERB.CA>
To: PLOTD@********.ITRIBE.NET <PLOTD@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...


>Grifter13 <sids@*********.CA> once wrote,
>
>
>>Before I say anthing about this 'process' i would like to know more about
>>the pros and cons that your character has received. You see I used to
play
>>Rifts so I have had my fill of Munchkins...ah how I do miss my Mutant
>
>Now wait a goddamn minute. I've had the pleasure of playing with Jett for
>almost a year. I played with her characters, and never once was Jett's
power
>put into question? Not to mention the dreaded Munchkin tag. Before you
>talk 'bout munchies and everything, look at the characters, look at the
>history, the experience. And besides, goddamn it, this is a writing list.
>Nobody uses character sheets anyways. The only munchies that exist are the
>one's you make, and you soon run out of people who'd be willing to write
>with you.
>
>So don't worry. If people are writing here, they do not qualify as
>munchies.
>
>Trinity
>----------------------------------------
>Frank Pelletier

Hold on a minute there. I'm sorry for apparently offending you by
mentioning the M word. but from what I read in the mail about Jett left me
wondering a bit. "It's given her a bit of a power boost physically, and
given her one or two free-spirit-like powers (personal concealment and the
enhanced physical attributes" I just wanted to know what that meant, that's
all. I mean enchanced physical attributes could mean any thing from having
a strength of 6 or 10 or 15. I'm sorry but from my past experiences as a GM
I just cringe when some says that to me. Just like you apparently jump down
the throat of someone who implies that something has the possibility of
being Munchkin. I should not have asked for specifics in that way, it was
impolite and I apologize for making the accusation that Jett was Munchkin.
I apologize to you, Jett and to any other member of this list that I may
have insulted by my last post, Sorry.

Christopher Adam Sidsworth
Message no. 8
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:40:50 -0500
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:39:07 -0500 Jett <zmjett@*********.COM> writes:
>> <lotsa snips>

<and even more!>
>I'd like to point out that she's also one person, with no huge
government
>organizations backing her. She doesn't own a corp. She's not military
elite.
>She's a lone runner, just a damn good one. And, IMHO, I have never
played her as
>a powermonger. I'm more interested in dealing with her life, her mind,
and her
>friends than I am about any potential combat-goddess effect. I've had a
chance
>to look at Jett as both a player and a GM, and I've found her balanced,
and a
>really great character and person. I enjoy getting inside her mind.

I think I remember you explaining the whys and wherefores about Jett on
the RN list, and the only thing that really occurred to me that it seemed
to be an interesting PC. I think your problem is that it's something
most people won't think about playing. I like the idea, myself. You
mention "free spirit" and some assume one's talking about playing a
mantid spirit or similar.

>But as I said, it's your call. Maybe talk to some of the people who were
around
>when I posted to the list before. I will say that I was a writer and an
RPer
>before I ever picked up a game like Shadowrun. *sigh* This is ironic. I
try to
>MINIMIZE talk about Jett's stats and focus on the character, but I have
to
>defend her as a character because of her stats. :/

They're probably just jealous they didn't think of the idea. In a
table-top game I play a troll physad who's stats are perhaps comparable,
but I've never gotten flack for him. 'Sides, the GM wanted me to play
the team "muscle."

>One more question. What the hell IS RIFTS, anyway?

Post-apocalyptic sci-fi game. It lends itself very easily to
munchkinism, with plenty of high-powered power armor suits and robots.
Not to mention all the magic and psionics and creatures you can play
running about. Depends on what the GM allows. The Monty Haul breed has
a field day.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Hey, my first post on here. Neat."

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:15:04 -0800
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Frank Pelletier (Trinity) wrote:

> Now wait a goddamn minute. I've had the pleasure of playing with Jett for
> almost a year. I played with her characters, and never once was Jett's power
> put into question?

Well, for one, it was never an issue until you announced the character was
using magic outside the bounds of SR (without mentioning it before you
planned on using it). NB: a good percentage, myself included, around here
don't also subscribe to the SR ml, so discussing an idea there =/=
discussing an idea on PlotD.

> So don't worry. If people are writing here, they do not qualify as
> munchies.

I would, cynically, beg to differ. There have been on occasion people
who, in my opinion, qualify for the "M-word," especially those that
brought said things upon the list without mentioning that "oh by the way I
was wanting to have a character that can >BLAH< (blah being outrageous if
not impossible). But, as you say, they quickly find existence on the list
boring, since people either ignore them completely, or simply refuse to
collaborate with them. I have some "out there" ideas myself and have, on
occasion worried if I had overstepped the bounds of reason, but before I
try anything unusual, I bring it up on plotd first and see if I can hammer
something out to everyone's satisfaction.

Case in point: my Changeling, Seren. She is definitely unusual, and her
"species" doesn't exist under SR canon, but I thought, "Well, if
everything else that was thought to be a legend was true, why not a
Changeling." The next step was to look at precident, namely parusel of
some friend's Paranormal Animal's guides to see what FASA has already
considered other beasties could do. Using that as a basis, I laid out the
groundwork for what they could and could not do. When I brought it up to
the list, well before using the character, I outlined what I had in mind,
and especially illustrating how the several unpleasant disadvantages to
the character would keep it solidly in check from getting out of hand.

On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Jett wrote:

> > <lotsa snips>
>
> Thanks for sticking up for me, Trin. :)

> Anyway. More about Jett, stats-wise? She's about on par with your
average troll, > though she's human. Well within the range of a highly
experienced character with > a bunch of cyber. She is a low-grade initiate
magical adept (shamanic), but > seldom uses magic. She's pretty messed up
psychologically, and is nowhere NEAR > invincible. For one thing, she's
permanently Alienated, force 3. It takes its > toll when you have to
concentrate damn hard just to be noticed and to do > "normal" things. It
makes you harder to hurt, but, it's a tradeoff. It's also > interesting to
play a character who is technically both living and dead, who is > aware
that she doesn't quite fit in either world.

See, now here is where you might start to hear some grumbling. As of yet,
there hasn't been any indication that Jett is "messed up psychologically"
"permanently Alienated", etc. She seems to interact just fine, so far, as
though nothing has happened. If her posting "style" had changed
dramatically, that might be worth some consideration. The next time she
actually meets any of the people she once knew, I would hope you keep
these things in mind and be willing to play out the effects. I agree, it
would make for an interesting character subplot, but only if it is
actually implemented. (i.e. A character flaw/disadvantage that an author
never uses is not really a disadvantage, now is it?)

> Also, any free spirit powers she might have had operate at an extremely low
> level because, due to the cyber that her body has, her essence is shot right to
> hell. So it's not much more of an edge than a couple quickened spells or spell
> locks would be.

Still, I think the main point is how in the world did she acquire the
powers in the first place? (Just who conducted the ritual and, more
importantly, why, is also a major mystery.) Quickened spells and spell
locks are one thing, they have precedent, but a human, astral or no,
gaining free spirit powers doesn't make much sense to me. That's the
problem I have. I'm not saying that Jett's character should be removed,
or that no resolution (dare I say compromise?) could be reached.

> I'd like to point out that she's also one person, with no huge government
> organizations backing her. She doesn't own a corp. She's not military elite.

Your point? She could be a four star General, so what? Those things
exist, even in the SR world. On the other hand, necromantic spells that
prevent death and bestow free-spirit powers _don't_ (yet, or at least not
in canon). That's all that people are really worried about. This is
something new that can be seen as altering the way in which "magic" is
supposed to work in the world.

> She's a lone runner, just a damn good one. And, IMHO, I have never played her as
> a powermonger. I'm more interested in dealing with her life, her mind, and her
> friends than I am about any potential combat-goddess effect. I've had a chance
> to look at Jett as both a player and a GM, and I've found her balanced, and a
> really great character and person. I enjoy getting inside her mind.

That's great. Glad to hear it. There are a number of writers here who
play with things unusual. I'll admit to it, Mark and Paul have as much
already. What mostly makes or breaks a character is how it is _played_.
A well thought-out, well-portrayed character who is a bit outside the
bounds, in a way that is explained thoughtfully to the list, stands a
much better chance of being welcomed into the list than a poorly-portrayed
vanilla-plain character.

> But as I said, it's your call. Maybe talk to some of the people who were around
> when I posted to the list before. I will say that I was a writer and an RPer
> before I ever picked up a game like Shadowrun. *sigh* This is ironic. I try to
> MINIMIZE talk about Jett's stats and focus on the character, but I have to
> defend her as a character because of her stats. :/

Hmmm. Not so much "stats" as attributes. Having a character that is a
bit stronger or faster than another is one thing. Having character do
something that no one else _can_ do is quite another, no matter how
powerful the ability.

> One more question. What the hell IS RIFTS, anyway?

Palladium Games Future-Fantasy RPG. As others have alluded, it is a bit
of a power-monger/Monty Haul campaing attractor. Their sourcebooks had an
uncanny tendency to include an item or group of items that was in nearly
every way superior to something that came before it.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 10
From: Brion David Wauters <bdw8@****.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:10:23 -0700
I have got to pay more attention to the posts. I thoght Jett was just a
high-grade samaurai.

On a side note...if Jett is technicaly not alive, but not dead, does that
mean a dark Vodoo practicioner could use his powers to make her do things?

Brion
Message no. 11
From: "Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:03:17 -0800
According to Brion David Wauters:
>I have got to pay more attention to the posts. I thoght Jett was just a
>high-grade samaurai.

Neat how the little details slip by so easily, isn't it?

>On a side note...if Jett is technicaly not alive, but not dead, does that
>mean a dark Vodoo practicioner could use his powers to make her do things?

Very interesting question. Depeneding on the nature of how Jett is being
maintained, it might well.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI. http://psy-s.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 12
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Okay, about Jett...
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:08:19 -0500
Brion David Wauters wrote:

> I have got to pay more attention to the posts. I thoght Jett was just a
> high-grade samaurai.
>
> On a side note...if Jett is technicaly not alive, but not dead, does that
> mean a dark Vodoo practicioner could use his powers to make her do things?
>
> Brion

Jett used to be a high-grade Sam, but she moved up a bit on a little side
trip, and wound up dead, then reanimated.

As for maintainance, Jett has to return to the plane where she died fairly
often.The longer away from the plane with no contact, the weaker she gets.

Yuppers. because her spirit is a ghost now, a necromancer who was powerful
enough could find her True Name and bind her to his will. An evil possibility
that I'd be more than willing to work on.


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

Disclaimer

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