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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: KC Chase <1chase@**********.COM>
Subject: RAWRGH!
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:24:34 -0800
Okay, someone throw the poor beleaugered newbie a bone here eh? Sheesh.
Awright, I fling myself into the plotline full force without regard for
life or limb and happily find myself knee deep in several plotlines...
two of which happen to be employment opportunities for characters...
HOWEVER...
Being knew to the whole SR mailing list thang I assume that if one of my
characters is supposed to investigate another character the first step is
to contact the player of that particular character or entity.

Am I fuckin' this up so far? Someone just lemme know huh? Because thus
far I've been given the cold shoulder by purdy much everyone I've emailed
for info and assistance with the BIG exception of Dave and Anthony who
have been more than helpful.

Okay, I agree...sounds like I'm bitching and moaning for no goddamn
reason but the fact is I am seriously holding up Dave and Anthony's
plotlines while I struggle to get folks to respond to me... am I just
hosed with players who don't have much time online or have a few mistakes
already black-balled me as the one to avoid. (grin)

Any responses will be gratefully slobbered upon with typical newbie glee
(smirk)

thanx
KC
Message no. 2
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 00:32:12 +0000
|Am I fuckin' this up so far? Someone just lemme know huh? Because thus
|far I've been given the cold shoulder by purdy much everyone I've emailed
|for info and assistance with the BIG exception of Dave and Anthony who
|have been more than helpful.

You shouldd've mailed plotd with the question....

Most of us are happy to help....

|Okay, I agree...sounds like I'm bitching and moaning for no goddamn
|reason but the fact is I am seriously holding up Dave and Anthony's
|plotlines while I struggle to get folks to respond to me... am I just
|hosed with players who don't have much time online or have a few mistakes
|already black-balled me as the one to avoid. (grin)

They did the same to IF1 when we started.....

SOME (or even most) of the people here are OK guys (and gals), but there is
a subset of sad individuals..... (with the emphasis on SAAAAAD...)

|Any responses will be gratefully slobbered upon with typical newbie glee
|(smirk)

Slobber away....
(Carefull! Not on the keyboard!!!!! Duh...)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: KC Chase <1chase@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:36:41 -0800
> You shouldd've mailed plotd with the question....

Unh-huh... just fell into that revelation m'self. (grin) But thanks for the tip.
Whew...nice to skip the format in here without fear of being nuked.

> Most of us are happy to help....

Great! I'm gonna need it, be prepared to be plagued with stupid questions. (grin)

> They did the same to IF1 when we started.....

And here I thought I was just singled out for being so damn cute. (smirk) Seriously,
it's a relief to know I'm not the only one with trouble breaking in on this game.


> Slobber away....
> (Carefull! Not on the keyboard!!!!! Duh...)

Minimal slobber, honest. (grin)

To those of you who have helped, don't stress it...I am slooooowly but surely getting
the hang of things... look for my posting to pick up in quality and quantity during the
next few weeks while I SLUG out on vacation and abandon m'self to the glory that is
indolence and internet. (smirk)

KC
Message no. 4
From: neon@*******.EDU
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 18:40:48 +0000
> They did the same to IF1 when we started.....

Yes, poor IF1. The people who decided to post without thought to FAQ
or guidelines. The poor, poor downtrodden individuals. Damn the
those list members who had been here before and were irrationally
upset at those who would throw incorrectly formatted posts all over
the place! Damn them! Forget posting guidelines! Forget doing
things in an established way!

Now with that said, I'm really sick of hearing IF1er's whine about
how they were treated. We all, at one time or another, new or now,
received the same response when we made mistakes. And if we had kept
making those mistakes, in volume, we would have kept recieving that,
and stronger, responses.


Mike Broadwater
"I wrote this song after I got my hair cut; if you feel it
has global implications however, that's just fine."
- Warren Zevon, on his song "Figurine"
Message no. 5
From: Avenger <Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 03:25:56 +0000
In article <199612120042.SAA07331@******.backbone.olemiss.edu>,
neon@*******.EDU writes

>Yes, poor IF1. The people who decided to post without thought to FAQ
>or guidelines.

Sorry Mike, but some of us did give thought to the FAQ, others didn't
get it...

>The poor, poor downtrodden individuals. Damn the
>those list members who had been here before and were irrationally
>upset at those who would throw incorrectly formatted posts all over
>the place! Damn them! Forget posting guidelines! Forget doing
>things in an established way!

I think your being a little overzealous, here... Part of the initial
problem that is experienced by newcomers to this list is the elitism
that is displayed by certain listmembers. Patience with newcomers
achieves a lot more than ranting and raving. I still remember the
rather calm way you dealt with a couple of formatting problems I had
early on, and that is more like a rational human being. This kind of
ranting doesn't really achieve anything does it.

>Now with that said, I'm really sick of hearing IF1er's whine about
>how they were treated.

And I've not seen any whining from the IF1 ers over the last couple of
months about the way they are or were treated, aside from a couple of
comments like the one from Spike, which was, I feel designed to make the
chap feel less isolated, than to make any kind of personality
observation on some of the list members.

>We all, at one time or another, new or now,
>received the same response when we made mistakes. And if we had kept
>making those mistakes, in volume, we would have kept recieving that,
>and stronger, responses.

Agreed, I remember some of your more vociferous flaming from quite a
while back, and some of the royal arguments that have flared here on
occassion with other people. but what does that achieve????

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're getting so worked up
about, unless you've been inundated with continual mail from the IF1
people stating that they're downtrodden and victimised. Some of us
haven't commented at all, but merely got on with life, and having _fun_

Surely a calm rational manner with people would be more sensible than
jumping up and down, and getting all heated up about something that
doesn't really mean life or death. Newcomers will make mistakes on the
list, and has been stated before, by Mark I, the list was getting a
little stale and could do with newcomers. Flaming the poor people for a
couple of violations (and I'm not getting at you here, but others) isn't
going to solve anything except a: to start huge rows about nothing in
particular, and b: to scare away new blood.

I don't hold with elitism of any kind, not only is it arrogant, but it
is also self defeating. Please calm down. And maybe people won't annoy
you so much.

Don't forget, this list is mentioned on other FAQ's and web sites, this
means that people subscribe, get a few posts from the list, but don't
necessarily get the FAQ quickly, or with the first set of posts, and who
really wants to sit back for a few months looking at a bunch of posts,
when they could be having fun by joining in. It would make far more
sense, to deal with things in a rational manner. Yes I can see how you,
and others could become annoyed with people who continually violate
posting formats, but in the early stages of anyone's membership, a
helping hand does more than a few angry words. However, if that person
constantly makes the same errors, and continually frags up with their
posts, then yes, I can understand a bit of annoyance, but again,
shouting about it in public doesn't achieve anything except to start
arguments and make people take sides. Newcomers will fly out of the
woodwork and make their comments, old timers will side with established
friends, and you get seperatism again.... *sigh*.

I can feel for you, I know it's bloody irritating to see people making
stupid mistakes and screwing up their posts, but please, nobody's life
depends on it. I also know that it makes it difficult for the Faithful
Collator of Stk when he starts to compile the logs. But I've been doing
that for the past few months as well, and it's no great bind, just a bit
time consuming.

Please cool off a bit, there are over 20 people on the IF list, and
they're all waiting for a chance to join in, and start their own stories
in here. And in defence of Spike, a couple of them _have_ been treated
_very_ badly indeed.

I'm happy to say that most of the people on this list are pretty good
about things, and are more than helpful, you have been included in that
list of helpful, but this little post of yours doesn't help those who
want to become part of Shadowtk.

Anyway, that's enough nonsense from me. Sorry if I offended you, that
wasn't the intention, but I do tend to object to angry people, there's
more than enough hate in this world already.


--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 6
From: EBruns@***.COM
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 23:29:03 -0500
In a message dated 96-12-11 22:51:56 EST, you write:

<< Anyway, that's enough nonsense from me. Sorry if I offended you, that
wasn't the intention, but I do tend to object to angry people, there's
more than enough hate in this world already.
>>
Ya know, this is pretty neat. I would not have expected a comment like this
from the guy that runs the Dark Avenger. -- I'm glad that DA's pent up rage
is a result of good role playing :)

I think that all newbies (me included) need a short (1 - 2 paragraph)
description of what is expected of them. Also, I think that established
listmembers should try to _use_ a newbie. Tell them what to do. What should
thier post say (not how, but what). Then we'll know what to look for when
reading the FAQ.

Geez, I'm full of it tonight (Hopefully the it is good advice, not BS)
Eric again
Message no. 7
From: neon@*******.EDU
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:49:18 +0000
> Agreed, I remember some of your more vociferous flaming from quite a
> while back, and some of the royal arguments that have flared here on
> occassion with other people. but what does that achieve????

My response to IF1? I was helpful, and gave tips as to what was
going on and how to do things. If you mean _your_ in a general
sense, then perhaps, I do not know what else you were told.

> I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're getting so worked up
> about,

Worked up? No. That was sarcasm. I've heard several comments to
the effect of "this is so that other people won't make mistakes and
be treated the same way we were." I'm just tired of them, and wanted
to say it. Admittedly, I decided to say it sarcastically.

You didn't offend me, and I'm sorry that people in IF1 had people
yell at them after they sent poorly formated mail. But that
happens. I had problems when I started (I forgot about my sig twice)
and learned real quick.

I think 99% of problems can be solved if the FAQ is sent out when
people join (if it's read). But, that had apparently not happened
with IF1 (on both sides) and continues to go on, and that's why
there's so many newbies who come on with poor formatting. And I
think some of us are under the impression that the FAQ still goes out
when ppl subscribe (I know I certainly am/was) and _thats_ why we're
horrified when people format incorrectly.

As for elitism, I don't believe in that. I didn't experience it.
Paul joined about the same time I did, and he's certainly not
suffering. While I haven't been included in every plot, there's
usually a reason. And I highly doubt it's because "your new here, go
away." Hell, Brian Angliss let my new character have a fairly good
sized role in his Maxim story.

So I'm not upset with anyone about posting. I just wanted it to be
known that I've seen enough "IF1 was treated like hell when we
joined" posts that I'm tired of. Everyone was treated bad if they
didn't bother to read the FAQ. Which brings up the "send it to all
re-joiners" thing again.

Oh well. I'll try and tone down the sarcasm next time. :)


Mike Broadwater
"I wrote this song after I got my hair cut; if you feel it
has global implications however, that's just fine."
- Warren Zevon, on his song "Figurine"
Message no. 8
From: Avenger <Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 05:18:47 +0000
In article <961211232902_907576715@*******.mail.aol.com>, EBruns@***.COM
writes
>In a message dated 96-12-11 22:51:56 EST, you write:
>
><< Anyway, that's enough nonsense from me. Sorry if I offended you, that
> wasn't the intention, but I do tend to object to angry people, there's
> more than enough hate in this world already.
> >>
>Ya know, this is pretty neat. I would not have expected a comment like this
>from the guy that runs the Dark Avenger.

Really? Why ever not. DA is an angry person, and maybe a little bit
off base. But I don't think that should be a reflection of myself. A
character is merely that, a character, there's nothing worse in this
world than not having an alter ego for a PC. Might just as well not
bother if all one does is play oneself. :)

> -- I'm glad that DA's pent up rage
>is a result of good role playing :)

Pent up rage.... Hmmm, I didn't realise it was _that_ obvious <grin>

>I think that all newbies (me included) need a short (1 - 2 paragraph)
>description of what is expected of them. Also, I think that established
>listmembers should try to _use_ a newbie. Tell them what to do. What should
>thier post say (not how, but what). Then we'll know what to look for when
>reading the FAQ.

Agreed, but how do you get into one or two paragraphs a whole concept.
Sascha and myself decided to compile a document that would help
newcomers on the list. It turned into much more than a couple of
paragraphs, and still only covered the formatting, I don't think we ever
got to the point of analysing the list and trying to cover something as
esoteric as "what" to do rather than "how" to do it.

Mostly the advice from people is, sit back and watch, but that's no fun,
and when the plots are well developed, it's really confusing figuring
out what's going on, especially when the posts are headerless and not
threaded, they just seem like random mutterings. There isn't any real
advice that *I* can think of that would fit into a couple of paragraphs
for newbies. Though I reckon some of the other listmembers could come
up with something.

I guess the biggest buggaboo is formatting. The list doesn't care much
about plot lines, as long as it doesn't involve something like giving a
tribe of pygmies nuclear energy, nuclear weapons, and sending them off
to explore deepest space after nuking France. Simple and within FASA
guidelines to start with, exploring the realms of the fantastic and
ridiculous later on.

I don't know what the ratio is here of corporate players to standard
runners, but there is a massive intelligence community on the tk list,
seems like everybody wants to be Bond, so be careful what you say and do
would probably be good advice, the spooks in here will keep notes
otherwise. :)

>Geez, I'm full of it tonight (Hopefully the it is good advice, not BS)
>Eric again

BS.... Hmmm.. Nope, that's usually what I spout :)


--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 9
From: Avenger <Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 05:55:52 +0000
In article <199612120449.WAA09408@******.backbone.olemiss.edu>,
neon@*******.EDU writes

>> while back, and some of the royal arguments that have flared here on
>> occassion with other people. but what does that achieve????
>
>My response to IF1? I was helpful, and gave tips as to what was
>going on and how to do things.

Yes you were helpful, at least to myself and one other that I know of,
the _your_ was a general thing, you have a reputation as an accomplished
flamer, but this is from some time back, and not during the IF period.

>> I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're getting so worked up
>> about,
>
>Worked up? No. That was sarcasm. I've heard several comments to
>the effect of "this is so that other people won't make mistakes and
>be treated the same way we were." I'm just tired of them, and wanted
>to say it. Admittedly, I decided to say it sarcastically.

OK, fair enough, I'm sorry but it didn't look like sarcasm. (maybe a
bit of formatting in PlotD would be a good idea <grin>

Something like

<sarcasm>
Bloody IF-1 whingers
</sarcasm>

<grin>

>You didn't offend me, and I'm sorry that people in IF1 had people
>yell at them after they sent poorly formated mail. But that
>happens. I had problems when I started (I forgot about my sig twice)
>and learned real quick.

Yes it does happen, I think most of IF got shouted at because of the
poor formatting, but that was due to an overeagerness to play about on
the list, and an unfamiliarity with the formatting. Unfortunately, this
flaming occassionally goes beyond the "Read the bloody FAQ you moron..."

The formatting _should_ have cleared up by now, but I have noticed some
silly errors still occurring, it get's jumped on when it happens, but
unfortunately, well... we've all seen it. :(

>I think 99% of problems can be solved if the FAQ is sent out when
>people join (if it's read).

Agreed, again, the problem is that it rarely _is_ read. FAQ means
frequently asked questions, as we all know. This, on other lists
usually just repeats things like, don't include binaries to the list,
blah blah, and doesn't go on at length about formatting. The format of
posts on Shadowtk, is pretty important to maintain the illusion of a
FASA style BBS, there's no argument there, but unfortunately, the FAQ
should be renamed, or titled accordingly to make sure that people
understand it contains formatting instructions, not list data.

maybe a complementary e-mail pointing this out to newbies... that the
FAQ is _essential_ reading, and that they should read it and ask any
questions on PlotD

Again, PlotD is not mentioned in any strength, either as a part of the
Welcome to Shadowtk e-mail or with any point near the beginning of the
FAQ. PlotD _is_ important to Stk. So maybe it should have a greater
prominance.

You'll have to excuse me if I seem to be talking out of my arse, because
I have no idea how the listserv works, or if it can be set up to send
out default emails to new subscribers. But if it can, it might be
worthwhile doing this, if only as a

"Hello and welcome to Shadowtk, Please subscribe to the sister list
PlotD as well, and make sure you read both parts of the FAQ, as they are
very important to any use you wish to make of the lists."

Or some such thing... :)


>But, that had apparently not happened
>with IF1 (on both sides) and continues to go on, and that's why
>there's so many newbies who come on with poor formatting. And I
>think some of us are under the impression that the FAQ still goes out
>when ppl subscribe (I know I certainly am/was) and _thats_ why we're
>horrified when people format incorrectly.

I really don't know, a friend of mine subscribed to Stk, and it was over
a week before he received part one of the FAQ, he had no idea of the
existence of PlotD, until he spoke to me about this wierd Shadowrun
thing he'd found... Thankfully I managed to catch him before he made a
mistake, and he's now happily lurking and watching.

>As for elitism, I don't believe in that. I didn't experience it.
>Paul joined about the same time I did, and he's certainly not
>suffering. While I haven't been included in every plot, there's
>usually a reason. And I highly doubt it's because "your new here, go
>away." Hell, Brian Angliss let my new character have a fairly good
>sized role in his Maxim story.

The comment about elitism, wasn't in relation to being accepted in other
plots, that's immaterial, most of the time, people want to start
something of their own, and hope other people will show an interest in
it, as you know, sometimes threads do just die from lack of interest, it
happens on other lists as well. No the comment was aimed mainly at the
more vociferous and angry listmembers, who will take a badly formatted
post from a newcomer, and leap about casting fireballs at it in a
desperate attempt to make the guy understand he's just boobed. It is
this very anger, and shouting, cursing that creates the elitist
atmosphere, people see that happening, and think to themselves, "Oh
bloody hell, I;m not hanging around here and putting up with that..."

It gives across an air, of "How dare you come here and do that, bugger
off, this is _our_ playground.."

You know what I'm trying to say??? <badly I'll admit>

>So I'm not upset with anyone about posting. I just wanted it to be
>known that I've seen enough "IF1 was treated like hell when we
>joined" posts that I'm tired of.

I agree with you that it does get a bit tedious if used all the time,
but as you stated yourself in this post, when you joined you got in
trouble for adding a sig to a couple of posts, so all that is happening
is that newcomers are being made to understand that it _does_ happen,
even though Mark I made a big point in the FAQ of saying the flaming
isn't nice, don't do it.

Maybe it could be better put by saying, something like... "Hey, don't
worry, everybody here got flamed when they first joined and made
mistakes, it's no biggie, but what you should've done is....."

Which brings up the chicken and egg theory, who was the first flamer and
flamee??? Nah, I'm not going to get into that one.

>Everyone was treated bad if they
>didn't bother to read the FAQ. Which brings up the "send it to all
>re-joiners" thing again.

That's all well and good, but if they didn't read it the first time,
because they didn't realise the import of the document, they're not
likely to read it the second time, and poor old Jim can't go chasing
_every_ single offender when they start, the poor guy won't have any
time left to get on with his life.

>Oh well. I'll try and tone down the sarcasm next time. :)

No, please don't, I enjoy sarcasm, when I recognise it as such. Maybe a
little _formatting_ next time ??? <grin>


--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 10
From: neon@*******.EDU
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 00:20:38 +0000
> Yes you were helpful, at least to myself and one other that I know of,
> the _your_ was a general thing, you have a reputation as an accomplished
> flamer, but this is from some time back, and not during the IF period.

Flame? Me? Um...<clears throat> well I, um...yeah.

Anyway... I agree with pretty much the rest you have to say.


Mike Broadwater
"I wrote this song after I got my hair cut; if you feel it
has global implications however, that's just fine."
- Warren Zevon, on his song "Figurine"
Message no. 11
From: Wes Nicholson <wes@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 18:02:59 +1100
>I think 99% of problems can be solved if the FAQ is sent out when
>people join (if it's read). But, that had apparently not happened
>with IF1 (on both sides) and continues to go on, and that's why
>there's so many newbies who come on with poor formatting. And I
>think some of us are under the impression that the FAQ still goes out
>when ppl subscribe (I know I certainly am/was) and _thats_ why we're
>horrified when people format incorrectly.

As someone who only joined a week or so back, I can assure you it
doesn't get sent. That's why my first couple of posts were screwy.

But, I did get a lot of helpful messages from people who told me what
was wrong and how to fix it. I don't recall a single flame as such.



Wes
Message no. 12
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:09:40 +0000
|
|> They did the same to IF1 when we started.....
|
|Yes, poor IF1. The people who decided to post without thought to FAQ
|or guidelines. The poor, poor downtrodden individuals. Damn the
|those list members who had been here before and were irrationally
|upset at those who would throw incorrectly formatted posts all over
|the place! Damn them! Forget posting guidelines! Forget doing
|things in an established way!

OH! And I suppose all your posts were absolutely perfect from day one where
they?

YOU never make mistakes....
(Not even earlier this week when you posted a comment about a post to
shadowtk instead of plotd....)

Can you say Oooops....

|Now with that said, I'm really sick of hearing IF1er's whine about
|how they were treated. We all, at one time or another, new or now,
|received the same response when we made mistakes. And if we had kept
|making those mistakes, in volume, we would have kept recieving that,
|and stronger, responses.

Ahhhh, but from what I've heard, some of the sad people on this list
immediately killfiled the entire lot of us the moment we appeared.

AND, some people received personal e-mails that were VERY offensive.

In fact, that is the entire reason we started IF1 in the first place.
To show the losers on the group that we won't be scared off by petty and
offensive insults to more sensitive members.....

Notice that we ALL cleaned up our act VERY quickly...

We have our own little plotd type thing going on in the background, just to
sort these errors out......
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 15:15:08 +0000
On 11 Dec 96 at 18:40, neon@*******.EDU wrote:

> > They did the same to IF1 when we started.....
>
> Yes, poor IF1. The people who decided to post without thought to FAQ
> or guidelines. The poor, poor downtrodden individuals. Damn the
> those list members who had been here before and were irrationally
> upset at those who would throw incorrectly formatted posts all over
> the place! Damn them! Forget posting guidelines! Forget doing
> things in an established way!
Established sounds fine, doesn't it...? Well, yeah. But _how_ to do things -
that was compiled by people of IF. Find problems - that also was done, and
mostly solved, by the people of IF. (Hm - now how do I get a spirit in here...
will find a way) The FAQ gives just _rough_ ideas how things _might_ be done,
re-read what pete comiled to see what would be better, and HELP getting a GOOD
guideline together.

Till then, stop your sarcasm, or define _to_me_ how to include videos. Texts.
Descriptions. Anyone on here has his/her own way to do, most often not even
continious within a single character's posts...

> Now with that said, I'm really sick of hearing IF1er's whine about
> how they were treated. We all, at one time or another, new or now,
> received the same response when we made mistakes. And if we had kept
> making those mistakes, in volume, we would have kept recieving that,
> and stronger, responses.
We didn't whine. We did work, and compile Pete's Newcomer's Guide. What have
you done but whining?

Mistakes are done, by everyone on the list, and after last weekend I am among
the badest wrongdoers, but those are formatting errors - forgot to remove
.sig, forgot to remove quote. Apart from that, IF has _really_ tried to gather
how to post on TK, in a way not just obvious to "Mike", but those people who
were interested, and I think, we have managed to expand the ways to post.

What are _you_ whining about?

(Um, after re-reading - maybe I was a bit harsh. But then again, this arrives
me at a bad mood, and I don't think it's based by anything, so... what the
fuck?)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 14
From: neon@*******.EDU
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:57:36 +0000
> Established sounds fine, doesn't it...? Well, yeah. But _how_ to do things -
> that was compiled by people of IF. Find problems - that also was done, and
> mostly solved, by the people of IF. (Hm - now how do I get a spirit in here...
> will find a way) The FAQ gives just _rough_ ideas how things _might_ be done,
> re-read what pete comiled to see what would be better, and HELP getting a GOOD
> guideline together.

I'm talking about breaking established views by having no explination
for how a spirit could have something like a third person narration.
Funny, no one elses seems to be having to many problems. Of course,
it might be because they decided to discuss things on plotd first...

> Till then, stop your sarcasm,
No. In fact, the more I here people in IF1 talk about how hard it is
to do things, and how hard life for them is, the more it will
probably continue.

> or define _to_me_ how to include videos. Texts.
> Descriptions. Anyone on here has his/her own way to do, most often not even
> continious within a single character's posts...

Funny, I thought you guys knew something about SR. You sure seemed
to. Did you miss the bit on "+++++include video" etc.?

> We didn't whine. We did work, and compile Pete's Newcomer's Guide. What have
> you done but whining?

You mean, other than help you guys? Perhaps I shouldn't have. No
one helped me, and I didn't screw up my postings nearly as many times
as you guys have. Either then, or now. And now, when someone comes
on, or the Newcomers Guide is posted, all I hear you say is "this is
so newbies won't be treated as harshly as we were." Sure you didn't
bother to read the FAQ, and there's no guarantee that anyone joining
the list will read your newcomers guide, so why is it so much better?

> What are _you_ whining about?

I'm complaining that you IF1'ers seem to believe you're the first
people to ever join this list and get a cold shoulder because you
didn't read the FAQ (and if you came from shadowrn, then you knew
there was one, and if all these people were your friends, why didn't
you tell them?). Seems to me you should admit that you screwed up
when you joined by not following posting guidelines (which are
clearly discussed in the FAQ) to such a degree that it was decided to
give the office of Dread Executor to one person since Mark was to
busy to take care of his other dutys _and_ the job of just making
sure people followed posting guidelines.

Mike Broadwater
"I wrote this song after I got my hair cut; if you feel it
has global implications however, that's just fine."
- Warren Zevon, on his song "Figurine"
Message no. 15
From: neon@*******.EDU
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:57:36 +0000
> OH! And I suppose all your posts were absolutely perfect from day one where
> they?
>
> YOU never make mistakes....
> (Not even earlier this week when you posted a comment about a post to
> shadowtk instead of plotd....)
>
> Can you say Oooops....

Well, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? How many mistakes
have you made in the last few months since you started posting? How
many have I made the entire year I've been on? Try to have a foot to
stand on before you try to attack someone else for posting
violations.

And I didn't say I never made mistakes. What I did say was I was tired
of hearing people from IF1 act as if they were the only people in the
world to make mistakes. And considering that was my first mistake
since the 2 I made when I joined the list (almost a year ago) I think
it can be forgiven. Which it was. But then, you don't hear me
whining about how poorly I was treated cause I didn't bother to
RTFFAQ.

Mike Broadwater
"I wrote this song after I got my hair cut; if you feel it
has global implications however, that's just fine."
- Warren Zevon, on his song "Figurine"
Message no. 16
From: "The Illustrious Mr. Frypp" <JAMES-CUENO@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:22:38 CST
> As someone who only joined a week or so back, I can assure you it
> doesn't get sent. That's why my first couple of posts were screwy.

Last time I talked to the New Fearless Leader about it, he says it
got lost when we switched over to Litserve-Lite.

Right now, I'm sending it out the first Monday of every month, any
more often is overkill.

jim
Message no. 17
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 19:23:56 +0000
On 12 Dec 96 at 10:57, neon@*******.EDU wrote:
[snip]
> I'm talking about breaking established views by having no explination
> for how a spirit could have something like a third person narration.
> Funny, no one elses seems to be having to many problems. Of course,
> it might be because they decided to discuss things on plotd first...
A third person's POV was used about 3 weks before I did use it, and not
attacked on PlotD. And as I said: I took the hint, haven't done 3rd person
again, but will when I found a way to do so. Improving the formats to find new
ways to express myself - and staying within the formats. That ok by you?

> > Till then, stop your sarcasm,
> No. In fact, the more I here people in IF1 talk about how hard it is
> to do things, and how hard life for them is, the more it will
> probably continue.
Not "it" - you. But I still have to see people of us "talk about how hard
it
is", but I am sure you'll point out.

> > or define _to_me_ how to include videos. Texts.
> > Descriptions. Anyone on here has his/her own way to do, most often not even
> > continious within a single character's posts...
>
> Funny, I thought you guys knew something about SR. You sure seemed
> to. Did you miss the bit on "+++++include video" etc.?
Funny. You sure?

+++++ include video
or was it ...
+++++ begin download: name
or was it name.ending
or was it
+++++ BEGIN DOWNLOAD
or rather
+++++ Begin: Download
or... ?

The FAQ advises us to use the "+++++ include", but how do you point out what's
in the included file? And mind, the "+++++ Begin Download" was first used by
IF - improving formats.

Did you miss these problems? Funny.

> > We didn't whine. We did work, and compile Pete's Newcomer's Guide. What have
> > you done but whining?
> You mean, other than help you guys? Perhaps I shouldn't have. No
> one helped me, and I didn't screw up my postings nearly as many times
> as you guys have. Either then, or now. And now, when someone comes
> on, or the Newcomers Guide is posted, all I hear you say is "this is
> so newbies won't be treated as harshly as we were." Sure you didn't
> bother to read the FAQ, and there's no guarantee that anyone joining
> the list will read your newcomers guide, so why is it so much better?
Yup, sorry. I just checked my logs and have seen I accused you wrongly. Yes,
you were among the people with constructive critc and a helpful hand. Sorry to
have you attacked on this one, really.

But you misread what I posted twice (*blush* - to TK (wrongly) and here) about
the newcomers guide. It is to _help_ people following the formats, not to
release people from reading the FAQ.

And don't you fragg... *cough* sorry. We had the discussion about reading the
FAQ before, and I think I did prove more then once I read it, forward and
backward, and still had probs with it, and tried to follow it, even with the
"spirit-3rd-person-mail" (see discussion back then, and my arguments why I did
post it as I did)

So, please, do _not_ accuse me of not reading the FAQ. I did.

> > What are _you_ whining about?
>
> I'm complaining that you IF1'ers seem to believe you're the first
> people to ever join this list and get a cold shoulder because you
> didn't read the FAQ (and if you came from shadowrn, then you knew
> there was one, and if all these people were your friends, why didn't
> you tell them?).
a) see above about reading the FAQ
b) We did tell them. On our private EMail conferences. Mostly much faster then
anyone on PlotD. And we discussed formats, plotlines there, too. If you
weren't so biased we all never read the FAQ and where just here to whine, you
might have noticed how fast the people within the IF plot did learn.

> Seems to me you should admit that you screwed up
> when you joined by not following posting guidelines (which are
> clearly discussed in the FAQ)
*sigh* That discussion we had already. There are some points not covered in
the FAQ, some have been changed after that discussion in the FAQ. Yes, already
we have left our traces.

> to such a degree that it was decided to
> give the office of Dread Executor to one person since Mark was to
> busy to take care of his other dutys _and_ the job of just making
> sure people followed posting guidelines.
Strange - the first removals Jim did were -IIRC- people who flamed... hm,
makes you think I hope :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'Hate is a force of|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| attraction. Hate is|
| \___ __/ | | just love with its|
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* |back turned' - Terry|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |Pratchett-Masquerade|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 18
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 19:59:46 +0000
|And I didn't say I never made mistakes. What I did say was I was tired
|of hearing people from IF1 act as if they were the only people in the
|world to make mistakes. And considering that was my first mistake
|since the 2 I made when I joined the list (almost a year ago) I think
|it can be forgiven. Which it was. But then, you don't hear me
|whining about how poorly I was treated cause I didn't bother to
|RTFFAQ.

But that's the entire point...

The only reference that's been made to the way IF1 was treated recently was
me, just yesterday....

YOU dragged the old arguments back up again...
All I was doing was making a newbie feel more at home, seeing as no-one else
seemed to want to help him.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: EBruns@***.COM
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 19:29:23 -0500
In a message dated 96-12-12 00:37:28 EST, you write:

<< Ya know, this is pretty neat. I would not have expected a comment like
this
>from the guy that runs the Dark Avenger.

Really? Why ever not. DA is an angry person, >>
That was supposed to be a compliment, but somehow I pressed a button and
mailed it before I finished. -- Good roleplaying :) Sorry if
misinterpreted!
Message no. 20
From: Avenger <Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:04:44 +0000
In article <961212192922_2051475307@*******.mail.aol.com>,
EBruns@***.COM writes
>In a message dated 96-12-12 00:37:28 EST, you write:
>
><< Ya know, this is pretty neat. I would not have expected a comment like
>this
> >from the guy that runs the Dark Avenger.
>
> Really? Why ever not. DA is an angry person, >>
>That was supposed to be a compliment, but somehow I pressed a button and
>mailed it before I finished. -- Good roleplaying :) Sorry if
>misinterpreted!


S'okay, I wasn't upset by it. It just amused me slightly :)


--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 21
From: Snow Leopard <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 00:44:53 -0800
> > As someone who only joined a week or so back, I can assure you it
> > doesn't get sent. That's why my first couple of posts were screwy.
>
> Last time I talked to the New Fearless Leader about it, he says it
> got lost when we switched over to Litserve-Lite.
>
> Right now, I'm sending it out the first Monday of every month, any
> more often is overkill.
>
> jim

Is it possible for Fearless Leader to set it so whenever someone new signs
on, you get notification, so you can send them the faq? (A bit of work
admitted, but it would save the mailboxes of the memebrs already on list)

--
Dvixen/Snow Leopard dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 22
From: "The Illustrious Mr. Frypp" <JAMES-CUENO@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:54:58 CST
> Is it possible for Fearless Leader to set it so whenever someone new signs
> on, you get notification, so you can send them the faq? (A bit of work
> admitted, but it would save the mailboxes of the memebrs already on list)

What? Does anybody else have a problem with a monthly reposting of
the FAQ? That's a new one by me.

jim
Message no. 23
From: "Mark A. Imbriaco" <mark@******.NET>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:01:53 -0500
On Dec 13, 10:54am, The Illustrious Mr. Frypp wrote:
> Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
> > Is it possible for Fearless Leader to set it so whenever someone new signs
> > on, you get notification, so you can send them the faq? (A bit of work
> > admitted, but it would save the mailboxes of the memebrs already on list)
>
> What? Does anybody else have a problem with a monthly reposting of
> the FAQ? That's a new one by me.

I have a procmail rule that is _supposed_ shoot the FAQ off
to new list members, but it's not working right now, and I haven't
had time to look at it. Even if it were working, the monthly
FAQ posting has been around forever, and always will be. It's
good to send a reminder every so often, that way the Dread Executor
is justified when he hits the 'eject' button for you. :-)

-Mark
Message no. 24
From: Brian Rogers <rogers@****.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:27:48 -0600
I think, and you know this is my own opinion, that it would be a good
idea to have the FAQ sent out to ALL new people so that they dont fall
between the cracks. Say, when they subscribe its right after the last
one went out, they flood us with crap, then whine when they get ejected.
You CAN say "Well, its in the FAQ" but that doesnt really cut it if you cannot
be 100% sure they recieved it.
Message no. 25
From: Avenger <Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:48:11 +0000
In article <199612131827.MAA27046@*****.crhc.uiuc.edu>, Brian Rogers
<rogers@****.UIUC.EDU> writes
>I think, and you know this is my own opinion, that it would be a good
>idea to have the FAQ sent out to ALL new people so that they dont fall
>between the cracks. Say, when they subscribe its right after the last
>one went out, they flood us with crap, then whine when they get ejected.
>You CAN say "Well, its in the FAQ" but that doesnt really cut it if you
cannot
>be 100% sure they recieved it.

Having had two friends recently subscribe, one who very nearly made a
mistake by posting to the list, I'd have to agree with this.
Accompanied by a complimentary e-mail explaining in short terms that the
FAQ is extremely important to the list, and mentioning PlotD.


--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 26
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 23:07:30 +0000
|
|I think, and you know this is my own opinion, that it would be a good
|idea to have the FAQ sent out to ALL new people so that they dont fall
|between the cracks. Say, when they subscribe its right after the last
|one went out, they flood us with crap, then whine when they get ejected.
|You CAN say "Well, its in the FAQ" but that doesnt really cut it if you cannot
|be 100% sure they recieved it.
|

As Mark I has already said, that USED to happen, but the script he's using
to perform this miracle isn't working at the moment.....

He'll fix it, WHEN he has the time.

He's a busy man y'know...

Until then, show a LITTLE bit of patience.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 27
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:04:00 -0500
At 10:54 AM 12/13/96 CST, The Illustrious Mr. Frypp wrote:
>> Is it possible for Fearless Leader to set it so whenever someone new signs
>> on, you get notification, so you can send them the faq? (A bit of work
>> admitted, but it would save the mailboxes of the memebrs already on list)
>
>What? Does anybody else have a problem with a monthly reposting of
>the FAQ? That's a new one by me.
>
>jim
>
The only problem is that new subscribers do not (at least I didn't) get the
FAQ when they join, and I had a VERY hard time finding it on the net after I
screwed up a few (ok, a lot:)) posts.

And if they join right after the first Monday of the month, then they go
almost a month without it...

I think that's the only complaint I could make... and I don't really mind
getting it the first Monday of each month.

Steve (Bull)
Message no. 28
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 16:59:38 +0000
On 13 Dec 96 at 10:54, The Illustrious Mr. Frypp wrote:
[snip]
> What? Does anybody else have a problem with a monthly reposting of
> the FAQ? That's a new one by me.
Naaa.... we killfiled the ADMIN topics anyway :-)

Sascha
Message no. 29
From: "The Illustrious Mr. Frypp" <JAMES-CUENO@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 12:19:20 CST
> > What? Does anybody else have a problem with a monthly reposting of
> > the FAQ? That's a new one by me.
> Naaa.... we killfiled the ADMIN topics anyway :-)

Hey, I did, too. But then the good Doctor came a' knockin' a coupla
times.

BTW -- the Doctor reference was to my predecesor as Dread Executor,
the good Doctor Doom of Texas.... Texas.... which Texas school _was_
Doom from?

jim
Message no. 30
From: Mark Imbriaco <mark@******.NET>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 17:18:26 -0500
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Brian Rogers wrote:

> I think, and you know this is my own opinion, that it would be a good
> idea to have the FAQ sent out to ALL new people so that they dont fall
> between the cracks. Say, when they subscribe its right after the last
> one went out, they flood us with crap, then whine when they get ejected.
> You CAN say "Well, its in the FAQ" but that doesnt really cut it if you
cannot
> be 100% sure they recieved it.

Actually, I fixed my script so they're all getting the FAQ at
signon. :-)

-Mark
Message no. 31
From: Mark Imbriaco <mark@******.NET>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 17:54:55 -0500
On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, The Illustrious Mr. Frypp wrote:

> BTW -- the Doctor reference was to my predecesor as Dread Executor,
> the good Doctor Doom of Texas.... Texas.... which Texas school _was_
> Doom from?

Texas A&M.

-Mark
Message no. 32
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: RAWRGH!
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 18:58:18 +0000
On 15 Dec 96 at 17:18, Mark Imbriaco wrote:
[snip]
> Actually, I fixed my script so they're all getting the FAQ at
> signon. :-)
Thanx a lot, Mark!

Sascha

Further Reading

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