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Message no. 1
From: Vamphyri <vamphyri@*****.NET>
Subject: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:40:21 -0400
I'm sorry, but I HAVE to say something!!!!

Killing adults is one thing! I understand that children die, in situations

like the one that's occuring, on the List. But ......

DO WE HAFTA READ _EVERY_ DETAIL....? I'm a parent...I have two
BEAUTIFUL little children....ages 17 months, and 3 years! I saw the post
entitled "So Sad"....I began to read it....and COULDN'T get beyond the
opening mention of "the doll"....I'm ASSUMING it was a child's corpse,
so horribly mangled.........

I'm not ashamed to say I sat and cried! All I could envision was my
OWN children! As ANY parent would......

The tears still fall, as I type this missive. I deleted the post
IMMEDIATELY! Those who know me well on this list (and there are a few),
know I am NOT a weak person, given to random tear-shedding

Please...EVERYONE! STOP this insidiously graphic portrayal of
infantiside! I shall most likely have nightmares, from this...you would
too,
if you had children! I KNOW I'm not the only one who feels this way, I've
already had e-mail discussions regarding the matter, with other players.

Don't take this as an attack...I've been known for some VERY graphic
scenes of destruction & bodily injury. I'll be posting some on here soon.
But NONE regarding SMALL CHILDREN! NO ONE under 12! And
NEVER, if it wasn't intrisic to the immediate plot-line!

Please, think about this! Everyone is careful not to upset anyone else
with the intoduction of munchkins, because they don't wish to offend.
Give the same regard to those of us who don't wish to be privvy to the
sight of dismembered babies!

And, if any of you DO have children, and haven't spoke up yet...or are
even WRITING this ghastly tripe, I hope you SERIOUSLY think about
it! And hang yer heads IN SHAME!!!

Feel free ta flame me...I've got my asbestos suit on, and a BIGASS
carp gun at my side, with a DREKKLOAD of ammo! The bastards are
dikoted! So take yer best shot! I'll still stand by my gripe...and my kids!

Desciding whether to wretch now, or later!
Vamphyri
vamphyri@*****.net
Message no. 2
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:13:29 +0100
On 24 Apr 98 at 4:40, Vamphyri wrote:
> I'm sorry, but I HAVE to say something!!!!
>
> Killing adults is one thing! I understand that children die, in situations
>
> like the one that's occuring, on the List. But ......
>
> DO WE HAFTA READ _EVERY_ DETAIL....? I'm a parent...I have two
> BEAUTIFUL little children....ages 17 months, and 3 years! I saw the post
> entitled "So Sad"....I began to read it....and COULDN'T get beyond the
> opening mention of "the doll"....I'm ASSUMING it was a child's corpse,
> so horribly mangled.........
[snip]
> And, if any of you DO have children, and haven't spoke up yet...or are
> even WRITING this ghastly tripe, I hope you SERIOUSLY think about
> it! And hang yer heads IN SHAME!!!
Although it's probably somewhat unfair to say so, but... You have been
warned:

2. DISCLAIMER
By nature of the topic of this list (cyberpunk and gothic styles of
fiction) it should be warned that discussions often contain violent,
sexual and/or adult themes.

This is from the FAQ. The text you refer to, as I see it, is a description
of a war scene - one you get to your home via international news, papers,
television. Like that one famous picture from Vietnam war - the young girl
burnd by Napalm. Horrible, but quite plainly describing the realities of
war. No heroism - just casualities.

Cruel as it was, I must admit I liked Avenger's posts, for their
brutality, as they showed quite good the brutality (although I admit I
think he has a ghost-writer - damn, noone can write _as_ _much_!)

Maybe you think of this scene, when in your next RL Shadowrun session some
player announces to throw a frag grenade... or fire a MG on full auto.

> Feel free ta flame me...I've got my asbestos suit on, and a BIGASS
> carp gun at my side, with a DREKKLOAD of ammo! The bastards are
> dikoted! So take yer best shot! I'll still stand by my gripe...and my kids!
As usual, I am quite sure under Gurth's Stairs(tm) :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |"The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | ICQ#: 7 517 216 | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!" |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 3
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:51:35 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 8:49:30 AM !!!First Boot!!!, vamphyri@*****.NET
writes:

> Please, think about this! Everyone is careful not to upset anyone else
> with the intoduction of munchkins, because they don't wish to offend.
> Give the same regard to those of us who don't wish to be privvy to the
> sight of dismembered babies!
>
> And, if any of you DO have children, and haven't spoke up yet...or are
> even WRITING this ghastly tripe, I hope you SERIOUSLY think about
> it! And hang yer heads IN SHAME!!!
>
> Feel free ta flame me...I've got my asbestos suit on, and a BIGASS
> carp gun at my side, with a DREKKLOAD of ammo! The bastards are
> dikoted! So take yer best shot! I'll still stand by my gripe...and my kids!
>
> Desciding whether to wretch now, or later!
> Vamphyri

I must also agree with Vamphyri, getting this into detail about the butchering
of children is a too much IMHO. It would have been sufficient to say that
people, including women and children were killed in the attack, but something
of this magnitude would have far more serious repercusions than you could not
believe.

If I, as Herc, were to find out about this, here is what he would do. Notify
all of the people in the Shadows who want to perform a group gang-bang of the
perpetrators, and turn them over to the law for full and complete prosection
as per the law, and letting the authorities understand that if the people get
away scot free they (the people) will be summarily executed by the entire
Shadow community within Seattle. Which in my mind would frighten the ever
living hell out of all of the corps and governments within Seattle and in the
surrounding areas.

That does it, does anyone mind putting aside anything they are doing currently
and performing a group gang-bang, calling in all favors owed to them by
contacts, corps,
and others, and getting as much magical and technological know-how involved in
this situation. It is the only way to teach someone who is trying to make a
name for themselves that this is not the way to go ? What does everyone have
to say about it?

There is a mechanic / rigger who is chafing at the bit because he does not
know about this happening, or all of the brutal details, as I still have not
gotten any information as to the new contacts Herc has from Kristling (I am
still awaiting a response).

And as for the type of posting that spawned this mess, I suggest that whomever
does this sort of thing be very wary, for the topic of wanton child-killing
will get anyone, even today, into all sorts of trouble on a massive scale.

I personally, if this were real, would have no trouble with the people being
gunned down mercilessly.

Sincerely,

Mike (who is now ready to beat the frag out of something)
Message no. 4
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:58:59 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 11:15:17 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE writes:

> Maybe you think of this scene, when in your next RL Shadowrun session some
> player announces to throw a frag grenade... or fire a MG on full auto.
>
> > Feel free ta flame me...I've got my asbestos suit on, and a BIGASS
> > carp gun at my side, with a DREKKLOAD of ammo! The bastards are
> > dikoted! So take yer best shot! I'll still stand by my gripe...and my
kids!
>
> As usual, I am quite sure under Gurth's Stairs(tm) :-)
>
> Sascha

I am sorry to have to say this now, but I am going to be leaving this mail
group and TK, I am not going to be party to a bunch of people who believe in
this sort of thing and let it happen. Yes, even I admit to having done
something like this in the games, but I have always sanitized it, both for my
sanity and for those who are in the game I run for them.

If there is anyone who would like to continue to chat with me privately, you
will have my email address from the top of the header and in the footer
section.

It would have been nice to have been able to continue, but I have had enough.

Good bye,

Michael S. Bobroff (aka Herc)
Message no. 5
From: Craigtw1 <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:55:09 EDT
I am going to agree with Vamphyri and Airwasp. There is no need for every
gory detail, all the fragging time. If you want to show a child getting
mutilated, once, to show how nasty and mean these guys are; that's fine. I
will admit to reading only parts of posts containing extremely graphic
violence. I skipped over the part where the pregnant woman was killed, and
nearly every single part where children are killed violently.

You can still have violence against children and pregnant women, but can we at
least tone it down a little? There isn't just adults on the lists there was a
time that I knew several teenages who were running characters here.

Thank you,
Tom
Message no. 6
From: "Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:02:25 -0700
According to Craigtw1:
>I am going to agree with Vamphyri and Airwasp. There is no need for every
>gory detail, all the fragging time. If you want to show a child getting
>mutilated, once, to show how nasty and mean these guys are; that's fine. I
>will admit to reading only parts of posts containing extremely graphic
>violence. I skipped over the part where the pregnant woman was killed, and
>nearly every single part where children are killed violently.
>
>You can still have violence against children and pregnant women, but can we at
>least tone it down a little? There isn't just adults on the lists there was a
>time that I knew several teenages who were running characters here.

*sigh* My view is this: people should feel that they have the freedom to be
as graphic as they want to make their point...some sort of artistic license
thing. That being said, I will also submit that going into minute detail
about gore seldom improves the interest of the writing, and indeed bogs it
down as unwieldy prose quite apart from whether it turns the stomachs of the
audience (which is quite possible).

Frankly, in the final analysis everyone who participates in this group has been
warned that there might be explicit content, and I hate to say it but the
statement that "there may be kids reading this" doesn't impress me
tremendously. All the same, I will concur that there has been more "attention
to detail" of late than I personally want to read.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 7
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:01:36 -0400
At 04:40 AM 4/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm sorry, but I HAVE to say something!!!!
>
>Killing adults is one thing! I understand that children die, in situations
>like the one that's occuring, on the List. But ......
>
>DO WE HAFTA READ _EVERY_ DETAIL....? I'm a parent...I have two
>BEAUTIFUL little children....ages 17 months, and 3 years! I saw the post
>entitled "So Sad"....I began to read it....and COULDN'T get beyond the
>opening mention of "the doll"....I'm ASSUMING it was a child's corpse,
>so horribly mangled.........

Honestly, I thought that *was* a doll...but to tell you the truth, I tend
to just skip through long bloodbath postings. I saw that a bunch of people
died horribly, the reporter was majorly pissed about it and blamed everyone
for it, but that's about it. For one reason or another, I glossed over the
brutal details.

>Please...EVERYONE! STOP this insidiously graphic portrayal of
>infantiside! I shall most likely have nightmares, from this...you would
>too,
> if you had children! I KNOW I'm not the only one who feels this way, I've
>already had e-mail discussions regarding the matter, with other players.

Well, I think Pete (and others involved, which I guess means even me to a
lesser extent) was going for something totally brutal and nasty. It fits
with Abbadon and CoT. I think he's also trying to galvanize the list into
taking action; which has been remarkably slow to me, at least compared to
other massive list actions.

>And, if any of you DO have children, and haven't spoke up yet...or are
>even WRITING this ghastly tripe, I hope you SERIOUSLY think about
>it! And hang yer heads IN SHAME!!!

Erm...I really can't comment on this, having no children of my own. But
I'm not positive that anyone should hang their heads in shame. It's a
brutally graphic representation of a nasty reality. As horrific as it is,
I'm not sure I'd rather have a less realistic representation of SR life.

But if I was a father, I might agree with you whole-heartedly. <shrug>

<self-deprecating humor>
But in order to become a father, I first have to be able to get a date.
Guess I won't be a father anytime soon.
</self-deprecating humor>

>Desciding whether to wretch now, or later!

<attempt at humor>
Please don't. It makes such a mess all over the keyboard; you'd be
cleaning out bits of this or that for months.
</attempt at humor>

>Vamphyri

Stick around "old one." A motherly influence of any sort would be welcome
thinks I.

Erik J.
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:54:19 -0400
At 09:51 AM 4/24/98 EDT, you wrote:

>That does it, does anyone mind putting aside anything they are doing
currently
>and performing a group gang-bang, calling in all favors owed to them by
>contacts, corps,
>and others, and getting as much magical and technological know-how
involved in
>this situation. It is the only way to teach someone who is trying to make a
>name for themselves that this is not the way to go ? What does everyone have
>to say about it?

You know, I have a vague suspicion that this is the sort of thing that is
what was desired in the first place.

If people had started banding together and started to do more than just
debate Abbadon with their PCs, the recent nastiness might have been avoidable.

I don't know, but I suspect that it was a case of "I'm going to push you
until you react" and we, the list, didn't react until things got really
brutal. And so far it seems we've only reacted on Plot-D, not TK.

F*ck, even now, how many TKers are taking an active role against Abbadon?
I am, Paul is, I think Mark is, Brian is. I'm pretty sure Vamphyri took a
stand early. Justin? Jamie? I can't recall, honestly.

We have been offered a chance to bring all this particular brand of
nastiness, this particular plot, to a close. And I don't think we've been
active enough in grabbing that chance. I needed a stronger, more selfish
reason to involve the Dark Stranger; I got sign-off and did it. Now tDS is
marshalling his resources and searching for the knowledge that will allow
him to fight it out with Abbadon.

Only a few other people, like Brian, Paul and I think Mark have done, or
stated on TK, anything other than debate Abbadon and call him a
freak/fruitloop/whatever.

If you want this nastiness to end, it's up to *US.* We have to make our
PCs get into the game. We have to give our ideas on how to track down
Abbadon; it's not up to the plot-leader/GM to *give* us everything. Is
that the way it is in your RL games? Let's also remember this is
interactive fiction; you want to affect the story somehow and not just
babble, talk to the people behind the plots and work with them to *DO*
something.

I agree with both Vamphyri, and what Avenger has done.

But it's up to us to end the madness and to do it some other way than to
have a fit and leave the list.

Vamphyri, I really hope you stick around; it *will* get better. And I know
those few of use who remember you will be upset and most displeased if you
do leave.

But let's get our collective asses in gear and do something other than
simply complaing on TK or Plot-D.

Erik J.

<insert tension breaking humorous .sig>


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 9
From: Craigtw1 <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:10:57 EDT
Actually, Erik, I took a stand against CoT. Ryaka Science and Tech attacked 5
sites each in Atlanta, Houston, Seattle, Chicago, New York, Dallas, and Miami.
All the attacks were simultaneous, and the only person who commented was
Irish...and that was only about the Chicago attack. I thought that seeing CoT
attacked throughout North America would've, at least, gotten the interest of
Interpol. I guess Ryuga is going to have to attack a very large cell openly
in order to get a significant reaction of any kind. Olorin was debating
Abbadon simply because he can't act unless the balance is completely upset.
The Motley Crew hasn't taken much of a hand, because I simply don't have a lot
of time to work on their actions in this. <sigh> Sometimes having many
characters is a pain in the butt.

Tom
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:46:00 -0400
Sorry Tom, I always seem to forget you for some reason. Like it's some
sort of brain block, I don't know.

But as is obvious, you're right, so Tom Craig is included with that list of
active list.members doing something.

My mistake.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 11
From: "Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:04:20 -0700
According to Erik Jameson:
>F*ck, even now, how many TKers are taking an active role against Abbadon?
>I am, Paul is, I think Mark is, Brian is. I'm pretty sure Vamphyri took a
>stand early. Justin? Jamie? I can't recall, honestly.

I'm coordinating with DA via email to use one of my death squads to make
the upcoming confrontation a bit more exciting. =) I will say, though, that
this is as much related to my desire to "field-test" some stuff as it is to
squash the racists.

>We have been offered a chance to bring all this particular brand of
>nastiness, this particular plot, to a close. And I don't think we've been
>active enough in grabbing that chance. I needed a stronger, more selfish
>reason to involve the Dark Stranger; I got sign-off and did it. Now tDS is
>marshalling his resources and searching for the knowledge that will allow
>him to fight it out with Abbadon.

In my case, I'm trying valliantly to finish my thesis by June; otherwise I'd
have been (hopefully) more vocal. For the time being, I'll have to settle
for a small number of high-casualty-causing principals.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Grad, VLSI http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 12
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:05:20 +0100
On 24 Apr 98 at 11:55, Craigtw1 wrote:
> You can still have violence against children and pregnant women, but
> can we at least tone it down a little? There isn't just adults on the
> lists there was a time that I knew several teenages who were running
> characters here.
See FAQ. And why do you all get enraged about children's and women's
deaths? As a non-pregnant male (human, for the Humanis people among you) I
know I'd take it quite personal if someone bombed me, too. In bomb
attacks, mainly the innocent are hit. A long history of RAF/Baader-
Meinhoff, IRA, and Lybian state terrorism shows just that. So, you can
live with statistics, but can't stand the picture what these statistics
mean? From that POV, wars must be acceptable for you?

On 24 Apr 98 at 9:51, Airwasp wrote:
> I must also agree with Vamphyri, getting this into detail about the
> butchering of children is a too much IMHO. It would have been sufficient
> to say that people, including women and children were killed in the
> attack, but something of this magnitude would have far more serious
> repercusions than you could not believe.
+++++Begin News Excerpt
Again thirty-four people died in a CoT bombing. Among them where three
women, and two children. How horrible!
+++++End News excerpt

Yeah, let me read more of these. Sorry, noone complained when Paul
described the Yemen war (a plot I really liked a lot, btw). You didn't get
the picture, Abbadon brought _WAR_ to Seattle. And even pointed out how it
was possible for such pictures to be broadcasted - although you who
haven't read the message probably haven't seen it.

> If I, as Herc, were to find out about this, here is what he would do.
> Notify all of the people in the Shadows who want to perform a group
> gang-bang of the perpetrators, and turn them over to the law for full and
> complete prosection as per the law, and letting the authorities
> understand that if the people get away scot free they (the people) will
> be summarily executed by the entire Shadow community within Seattle.
> Which in my mind would frighten the ever living hell out of all of the
> corps and governments within Seattle and in the surrounding areas.
"Hey, cop, either you kill 'em, or we do!" ??? Am I the only one to see
the error in this? Avenger already explained the structure of CoT. How do
you plan to find more then one, maybe two cells? And how many innocents
will be hit before, groups like COT, or political Humanis members?

> That does it, does anyone mind putting aside anything they are doing
> currently and performing a group gang-bang, calling in all favors owed to
> them by contacts, corps, and others, and getting as much magical and
> technological know-how involved in this situation. It is the only way to
> teach someone who is trying to make a name for themselves that this is
> not the way to go ? What does everyone have to say about it?
A predictable reaction - overreaction, rather. Most probably lots of these
gangs will form, and go for several (mostly human) targets - hitting
mostly innocents (well - innocents on this bombing, at least). On the
other hand - noone even _considered_ this might have been a hit by a
metahuman terrorist group. Nope. Must have been CoT.

Why?

On 24 Apr 98 at 9:58, Airwasp wrote:
> I am sorry to have to say this now, but I am going to be leaving this
> mail group and TK, I am not going to be party to a bunch of people who
> believe in this sort of thing and let it happen. Yes, even I admit to
> having done something like this in the games, but I have always sanitized
> it, both for my sanity and for those who are in the game I run for them.
[snip]
> It would have been nice to have been able to continue, but I have had
> enough.
Sorry to hear it. As I said: Keep these pictures in mind when you
"sanitize" or "reason" to throw a frag grenade in your next run. The
terrorists most probably (knowing Avenger and his planing :-) did also.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------- ICQ#: 7 517 216 --------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |I don't believe in love,|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ |I never have, / I never |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de |will, / I don't believe |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| in love / it's never |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |worth the pain you feel |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----Queensryche-+
Message no. 13
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:31:44 +0100
In article <199804240852.EAA03310@******.vicon.net>, Vamphyri
<vamphyri@*****.NET> waffled & burbled about This is getting to be WAY
too much!!!!!!
>I'm sorry, but I HAVE to say something!!!!
>
>Killing adults is one thing! I understand that children die, in situations
>
>like the one that's occuring, on the List. But ......

OK. I understand your opinion and sympathise with it. I am a parent
myself, with one very happy young boy who is the absolute light of my
life. To that end I would like to take a moment to apologise to you.


The children that died in the "So Sad" post were metaphorical, the
"doll" was used as a symbolic form, indicating that this was all that
was left of the woman's daughter. If I'd intended that form to be a
child, there would have been no doubt at all.


In regards to your later comments, I feel that leaving the list would be
a knee jerk reaction completely unfitting to the post. There are _very_
few posts of this nature. Those that are posted, are used, I feel to
graphically portray the brutalities of war, terrorism and armed
conflict. Planting bombs and firing guns is not a "bang bang your dead"
situation. I for one, do not like to portray it in this light. Combat
is dangerous, brutal and unpleasant, and as such I feel it should be
made to feel as such. Not a "He fired his assault rifle and the bad
guys fell down." That's a hollywood mismatch that exissted in the days
of "B" movies, something that created a situation where people didn't
understand the effects of a large lump of lead impacting on the meat
parts of a human body.


I apologise that you were so affected by my post, but I can also take
your reaction as a form of compliment. That it affected you so
profoundly is quite an achievement, though I'm sorry it was in such a
manner.


Writing is a two way street. It is either overly simplistic fabricating
an atmosphere of fantasy novels, or it's in the gutter. Most of my
writing sits deep in the gutter. I have a problem with simplistic views
of events. Mana blasts that drop people on the floor. .50 barrat
rounds that "injure" rather than Brian's more acceptable vision of the
round taking sombody's arm and shoulder off. There are possibly lines
that should not be crossed - but until they are crossed, nobody knows
where those lines are drawn.


My post was intended to achieve two things. First to show the senseless
and indeterminate nature of terrorism. You cried over my post. Then
think yourself very lucky you have not seen the things I have seen on TV
in the UK as a result of IRA bombs, it would have left you a gibbering
wreck.


Second, the post was used to illustrate that terrorists do not care
about their targets. Bombs are indiscriminate killers. I wanted to
show the side of the civilians on the receiving end of such senseless
behaviour. I believe I achieved that. Having a reporter standing in
front of a cordoned area, with a "several people including three kids
were killed by a car bomb today does not have the same impact as that
reporter being in the centre of the chaos caused by this act. It
doesn't portray to the reader the horror that people are living through,
and it doesn't provoke a reaction.


CoT are getting away with murder, they are terrorists, they kill
innocent people, they beat them to death, whatever gets the news,
whatever gets the job done.


They /are/ losing people. Fifteen cells, and a number of casualties and
arrests - soon that is to increase, Mark N has something a little
special planned for a couple. But in general do any of the characters
on the list care that this is happening under their noses? That
security is tightening every day, damaging their livelihoods? Sort of.
They think Abbadon is a fruit loop. He's not, he's a nasty little fuck
who arranges to have bombs explode in public areas.


That I have crossed a line with the "So Sad" post has let me know the
limitations of some people on this list, and as such I will endeavour to
keep anything I write within that limit so as not to offend somebody,
but that is I feel, detrimental to the atmosphere that I hope to create
with some of the things I write.


This particular incident is exactly that, an incident in a long running
plot - a part of the plot that is ending, and in ending it does not want
to go peacefully.


However, I will obey list opinion, and tone down my posts to fit within
the more sensitive readers. It will mean I will write less because I'll
need to carefully consider what I am saying. However, I'm prepared to
do that.


In leaving the list, I do not believe that you are making any kind of
statement other than one of petulance. If you check the logs, you will
find that very few of the "So Sad" style posts go to the list /very/
few. It is unlikely that there will be another once the CoT episode is
finished, there was to be another, involving a race riot in Redmond
where two opposing groups will conflict, but I'll rewrite that now.


So, rather than leave the list, resulting in no one reading anything you
have to say, missing a listmember that may well have something to
contribute to this list, why not just sit back and think about it. It
would not achieve anything by leaving, but it would achieve something to
remain here and talk to the writers here. Tell people what you did and
didn't like about a post - Hell, if you don't know it's broke, how do
you fix it.


Constructive criticism is far more effective and helpful, than stamping
of feet and walking away.


No offence is intended in this post, and as of this date the CoT plot is
ended. I will not continue it any further. If people are not prepared
to do something about these people, they will continue to kill, and I
for one feel obligated to illustrate the horror that terrorism creates.
And it is horror. I've lived watching it most of my life in this
country - some of it truly sickening, and never likely to see the light
of day on this list.


For those characters involved in the plot. If you would like to write
up the sections that have already been pre-arranged, post them to show
that some have resisted the animals that exist in the shadows, and the
rest will either disappear against the opposition or immitate lemmings.


This may seem like a petulant reaction, but it is not intended as such.
The fact is that I have a lot of material written for the upcoming
events, and some of it crosses the line that has been drawn. I'll
rewrite some of it, but I really don't feel like doing all of it.
Writing this stuff affects me sometimes the way it has affected Vamphyri
and others, so, the effects /is/ intentional. To that end, consider it
finished. I will not post further on this subject.


I appreciate that there is a disclaimer in the FAQ concerning violence,
sex and adult content. Maybe that should be changed slightly to truly
deliniate the restrictions on postings so that this mistake is never
made again. I will certainly be adding something to the Newbies Guide.

--
Avenger
Message no. 14
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:38:54 -0700
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Airwasp wrote:

> I am sorry to have to say this now, but I am going to be leaving this mail
> group and TK, I am not going to be party to a bunch of people who believe in
> this sort of thing and let it happen. Yes, even I admit to having done
> something like this in the games, but I have always sanitized it, both for my
> sanity and for those who are in the game I run for them.

Whether or not this falls on deaf ears, I'd like to throw my two yen in.

I, personally, am a bit troubled and/or offended to be lumped in with "a
bunch of people who believe in this sort of thing and let it happen."

Believe in this sort of thing and let it happen? If by that you mean "let
someone write the way they wish without censorship." Then fine, I believe
in that and am more than willing to let it happen, especially if it is
about a serious subject like this one. At no point did I find the
description of the violence gratuitous. Graphic, yes, but not dishonest.
In fact, it is only limited to one and a half paragraphs out of the entire
post. No-one forces anyone to read what anybody writes, and if you find
something offensive then STOP READING IT. That's why they invented the
Delete key.

If you mean "believe in the killing of innocents and condone it" that's
complete BS. Just because I support DA's right to post something that
includes it, doesn't mean I support the content of the post. That makes
as much sense as thinking that I am a racist, because I have a character
post some racist commentary. There is a rather thick dividing line
between fact and fiction here boys and girls.

Now, lets get to the heart of the matter. Why did people find this post
offensive? Because it rather horrifically and somewhat accurately
described the true terror that terrorism is. I am presuming that DA
created it to generate just the kind of reaction he is getting. Too often
violence is glossed over in fiction as well as reality, and casualties are
just words on the page. Well, this post was just words, thats all. A
bunch of symbols. What you make of them and how they affect you is up to
you. But to be true to the fiction, you have to think now: My character
has just seen this, and not just as words on a page, but in all the
gruesome detail that trideo can provide. How would it affect them?

Real footage of real violence, far more graphic than this exists in real
life. And it should move a person to shock, horror, and sympathy for the
innocents. There is a certain ammount of apathy that exists when people
hear about terrorism in Belfast or Tel Aviv. They see or hear or read of
bodycounts and numbers of wounded. Your average American doesn't want to
stomach the sight of the real meaning of terrorism. The man holding his
belly so that his viscera won't come falling out. The woman whose child
lays broken under a distorted bloody blanket. If these words trouble you,
good, they damn well better if you stop to thing about what they mean.
If they make you mad, think about what would it mean for your character,
not to be reading words about something happening on the other side of the
planet, but to be seeing it with their own eyes, happening in a city that
they call their home.

Which is not to say that there should be this single voice in unison
rising from the shadows to annihilate Abbadon and the CoT. Depraved
indifference is more common than you might think. I can easily think of
one character in my stable that isn't planning on doing anything. Frankly
NewzJunkie sees the world through a trid lens. Unless it is in his face
and happening to him, it isn't real. At heart, he is both a coward and a
voyeur. He's not evil, per se, but he's not very good either. His
girlfriend is a Dwarf, CoT isn't going after dwarves, and in fact, seems
to treat them with more respect than they do humans, so this isn't his
problem. The bombs are blowing up in parts of town that he isn't, so this
isn't his problem. He couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag, in a
city seemingly filled with cyber-monsters and omnipotent mages, so this
isn't his problem.

On an even darker note, there is probably a umber of sympathizers in the
audience. Which is not to say _anything_ about the writers out there, but
to be honest to your characters, can you see that some of the characters
out there would look at the dead body of an elven child the same way you
would look at a dead cat on the side of the road, if not perhaps with the
same revelry as seeing the body of a dead mouse: a pest or threat
eliminated. The dehumanization and demonization of an enemy is one of the
oldest and most common traits of war. And there will always be those who
will _want_ to believe.

From a literary perspective, I appreciate what DA was trying to do here.
And I support his decision to write what he did. Violence, especially of
this nature _is_ supposed to be terrifying. Now, if there are those that
find that they lack the maturity to deal with mature subjects dealt with
in a mature manner, then I would suggest that you don't read posts on
subjects you might find objectionable and skip over them to something more
to your tastes.

--My two yen

Jeff
Message no. 15
From: Justin Fang <justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:41:10 -0700
Erik Jameson wrote:
>F*ck, even now, how many TKers are taking an active role against Abbadon?
>I am, Paul is, I think Mark is, Brian is. I'm pretty sure Vamphyri took a
>stand early. Justin? Jamie? I can't recall, honestly.

If I currently had any characters with both the ability and desire to go
after Abbadon, they would be. But my usual group of runners (Sam-I-Am et
al.) aren't up to wiping out CoT cells (as I've just demonstrated), though
now they may try to find and report some to people who *can* handle them.
(Sam-I-Am keeps insulting psychos like Abbadon not becuase she doesn't take
them seriously, but because she thinks they want to be taken seriously and
doens't want to give them the pleasure. Besides, it's not like there's much
else she can do to them...)

As for Hayashi, they're acting out of self-interest: terrorism is bad for
business overall, even if it does increase sales of medical products (and
one of *them* might get caught in the next bomb); positive publicity is good
for business. They'd love to be the Corp That Took Down Abbadon and Saved
Seattle (they'd be able to milk that rep for *years*), but if Lone Star, the
Feds, and Interpol can't get him, Hayashi on its own doesn't stand much of a
chance, and they know it.

--
Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 16
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:52:05 -0600
From: Mark L. Neidengard <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>


>According to Erik Jameson:
>>F*ck, even now, how many TKers are taking an active role against Abbadon?
>>I am, Paul is, I think Mark is, Brian is. I'm pretty sure Vamphyri took a
>>stand early. Justin? Jamie? I can't recall, honestly.


What surprises me (and I mentioned this to Erik in private) was how few are
taking an active role against Lynch. I always pictured shadowrunners as
people who are a lot more opportunistic than moralistic, and with that kind of
money being offered, I'd imagine people wanting to be the first to claim the
prize would have been all over the place. Perhaps we'll see more of this later
when Paul gets back.

As for the graphic nature of posts, all I can say is it seems fine to me. The
post with the meat-hooks was intense, but that's the only one which even made
me twitch a little. Then again, I'm a major Clive Barker fan so maybe my
threshold for what's disturbing is a little higher than what's normal/good.
(If you want severely disturbing, read "The Damnation Game", or any of his
plays.. I'd love to be over there with Paul and Pete just because that's where
Clive's plays are most frequently performed. (Although, gaming with them would
be a hoot too))

Vamphyri-- As for the "dolls" post, you actually read to the worst part of
it.. (or maybe one sentence short depending on where you stopped) the rest of
it seemed to be a reporter's political rant which I more or less tuned out.
(Sorry, Pete.) Not that I'm saying your wrong in your opinions of it, but
they are *your* opinions. Other people's mileage may vary.

Personally, I'm hoping Wildthing (should this trideo business run to
conclusion) just does an "include trideo" rather than graphically depicting
it. Partially because the idea of a sex-a-thon between an elf and an 8 foot
troll prostitute just isn't my thing, but mostly because while it's very easy
to write erotica, it's incredibly difficult to write *good* erotica.

I think that has to be the major consideration when writing anything graphic.
Remember that there are always some people that your sensibilities will
offend, so unless your graphical depiction adds a *lot* to what you're
writing, you're probably better off leaving it out.

-Karl
Then again.. nobody's sent ME a royalty cheque yet so...


The FAQ does warn that posts may be graphic in nature, but perhaps we could do
something along the lines of making a notation in the subject
Message no. 17
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:14:59 -0400
At 10:31 PM 4/24/98 +0100, you wrote:

>For those characters involved in the plot. If you would like to write
>up the sections that have already been pre-arranged, post them to show
>that some have resisted the animals that exist in the shadows, and the
>rest will either disappear against the opposition or immitate lemmings.

Damn.

Pete, could you maybe give us something vaguely approaching a happy ending?

While I'm not totally comfortable with some of the images you've presented,
I'm prepared to accept them as part of the world, part of the plot. And I
have to say that once I got past the racist CoT attitudes and the nasty
brutishness of their actions, I was fascinated by what the real situation
was (and I still don't know that, but that's partly what fascinates me).

I'd like to do as much with whatever you're still prepared to do.

Hell, maybe you could give the TK list a victory of some sort, let someone
take Abbadon out. I don't know. I was sort of hoping that we could rally
nearly the entire active list and go smash the sh*t out of CoT and Abbadon.
But I guess not.

Hey, with the quest and it's deciphering (I'm still lost, but I've been
working) maybe tDS could have enough to track down Abbadon and the two
could duke it out. Or *something* more satisfying than Abbadon simply
fading into the shadows. It might not be the realistic ending you might
want, but it might make some people happy if the TK cause of the brutality
is dealt with.

I don't know. It's your call. I'm a little irked about it (between TK and
RN, it has *not* been a good day for the lists), but it's your plot, your
call.

BTW, I think you were mixing up Airwasp and Vamphyri. Airwasp left,
Vamphyri cried. Airwasp, I don't know. Vamphyri, I remember from days
long past and I really would like Vamphyri to stick around.

Anyway, I'll make a post on TK regarding the quest. Then I'm basically off
for the weekend. I hope that things can get sorted out by the time I sign
back on Monday morning and we can get back to writing interesting
interactive fiction.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 18
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:52:27 +0100
In article <3.0.3.16.19980424155203.09af9332@****.fbiz.com>, Erik
Jameson <erikj@****.COM> waffled & burbled about This is getting to be
WAY too much!!!!!!
>At 10:31 PM 4/24/98 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>For those characters involved in the plot. If you would like to write
>>up the sections that have already been pre-arranged, post them to show
>>that some have resisted the animals that exist in the shadows, and the
>>rest will either disappear against the opposition or immitate lemmings.
>
>Damn.
>
>Pete, could you maybe give us something vaguely approaching a happy ending?

There /will/ be a bitter sweet ending to this. There are several posts
yet to come from list members, some of them fairly dramatic in their
content and concept. CoT are going to be taking heavy casualties in
these posts - they'll basically be put on the defensive. Pulling back to
new positions, rallying men and equipment before striking again.
Something else is going to happen that will add a bit of bitterness to
that.

There are still things to be achieved, but basically as far as I'm
concerned, aside from existing on-going character involvement, which I'm
more than happy to help people with and continue that side of it. /I/
will not be posting further on the subject.

Effectively, consider that with what is about to happen over the next
three days that CoT are going underground.

I don't feel that I will be able to do justice to the press images of
the coming conflict without writing in my usual OTT style. So, there
won't be any - maybe a by-line from a few of my less able characters.

There are several powerful characters, a damn good team and a relatively
powerful player corporation (not counting Hayashi) involved. A _lot_ of
pressure from KE and LS, corporate security and rewards for information
- business is business after all and a number of other things that will
cause CoT to more carefully plan their attacks.

There is one event planned, which should arrive on the list within the
next two-three days that will give everyone a very big clue as to what's
happened, and the results of that occurrence.

>While I'm not totally comfortable with some of the images you've presented,
>I'm prepared to accept them as part of the world, part of the plot.

Comfort with images is not my strong point. I am a graphical person, i
sketch, I paint, I buiild models, I write (averagely). I like the things
i do to represent some realism in their content. In that respect,
violent events such as an explosion, or the employment of firearms above
target pistols are unpleasant. Possibly my use of words and images is
beyond tasteful, but then I do not view violence in /any/ form as
tasteful, nor can I describe it as such. There is a brutal side to this
game, and to the nature of what happens within that game that should
(IMO) leave an unpleasant taste on the palate. I try to aim for that -
and it seems that occassionally I hit it.

>And I
>have to say that once I got past the racist CoT attitudes and the nasty
>brutishness of their actions, I was fascinated by what the real situation
>was (and I still don't know that, but that's partly what fascinates me).

Oh the Plot still exists, it will simply transfer to the new section a
week earlier than intended, with a lot less noise from me.

>I'd like to do as much with whatever you're still prepared to do.
>
>Hell, maybe you could give the TK list a victory of some sort, let someone
>take Abbadon out. I don't know. I was sort of hoping that we could rally
>nearly the entire active list and go smash the sh*t out of CoT and Abbadon.
> But I guess not.

It has been done before. Thunda rallied virtually the entire list, and
resulted in a lot of people working together to bring him down. That
has happened to a certain extent this time as well. There are to my
knowledge 14 writers here involved - that's a fair few characters.

>Hey, with the quest and it's deciphering (I'm still lost, but I've been
>working) maybe tDS could have enough to track down Abbadon and the two
>could duke it out. Or *something* more satisfying than Abbadon simply
>fading into the shadows. It might not be the realistic ending you might
>want, but it might make some people happy if the TK cause of the brutality
>is dealt with.

TDS doesn't quite have enough to track Abbadon, but he's got enough to
have a damn good clue what's going on and who's doing it. I'll not
forget that, and if you want the Stranger involved in it, there's a
goodly chance he can do so - however, both Paul and I plan in the long
term for plots, and they tend to go a little quiet occassionally :)

>I don't know. It's your call. I'm a little irked about it (between TK and
>RN, it has *not* been a good day for the lists), but it's your plot, your
>call.
>
>BTW, I think you were mixing up Airwasp and Vamphyri. Airwasp left,
>Vamphyri cried. Airwasp, I don't know. Vamphyri, I remember from days
>long past and I really would like Vamphyri to stick around.

Ditto. But that's for both. I am surprised that Airwasp/wisp chose to
walk off the list on the strength of a few sentences and I'm somewhat
disappointed that he/she took that view, but - such is the way of
things. The post was generically aimed at both of them, but I suppose I
should have been more specific.



--
Avenger
Message no. 19
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@*****.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: This is getting to be WAY too much!!!!!!
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:58:48 -0600
>
> In my case, I'm trying valliantly to finish my thesis by June; otherwise I'd
> have been (hopefully) more vocal. For the time being, I'll have to settle
> for a small number of high-casualty-causing principals.

Good luck with the thesis. I just had my defense on Thursday, and the
actual document is due on Friday. It was not fun.

Brian

Disclaimer

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