Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	michael.goldberg3@*.net michael.goldberg3@*.net
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Tue, 07 Nov 2000 22:18:58 +0000

Message no. 1 Just a musing as I avoid work for a brief moment --

What is the shadowrun societal impact of a decker
modifying his/her/its timestamp? By this I mean, what
does it really indicate and is this ultimately a good
thing or bad thing for the decker's reputation?

On one hand, it seems to indicate a certain level of
talent and capability to circumvent the system that is in
place to safeguard against such "criminal activities".
This would seem to indicate that the decker is trying to
show that s/he is different than the other deckers that
are out there.

On the other hand, it is also a message to those that
hire decker talent that the individual likes to stand out
from his/her peers. What if the "Johnson" wants a quiet
approach? Is he really going to want a person who
advertises themselves by modifying their timestamp? Or
is he going to use a different measuring stick to
determine which decker is the one to use.

IMHO, I have always felt that while it is noteworthy to
be able to modify a timestamp consistently, it is more
impressive that the really elite decker crowd doesn't
bother. After all, they are not status concerned at that
point and they have made the realization that sometimes a
subtle tweak of the system is harder to trace than a
complete disruption of the system (or in this case, a
subsystem).

Since a lot of people have wanted to have their
characters do the timestamp modifications, I was curious
what other people on the list think about timestamp
modification and the career implications of doing it are
for the various "shadowrunners"?

Merely curious,
Mike

From:	Ratinac, Rand (NSW) RRatinac@*****.redcross.org.au
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:36:39 +1100

Message no. 2 > Since a lot of people have wanted to have their characters do the
timestamp modifications, I was curious what other people on the list think
about timestamp modification and the career implications of doing it are for
the various "shadowrunners"?
>
> Merely curious,
> Mike

As I've already pointed out for Seraph, she isn't a decker. For her it isn't
a dick measuring contest. It's not showing off. It's just good, practical,
business sense, which is why she's willing to pay for it.

Think about it - if you don't want people to know where you are, a time/date
stamp is, at the very least, going to tell people what TIMEZONE you're in.
That can narrow a search down considerably, when you're dealing with someone
who could be just about anywhere in the entire world. And if you go in for
the theory that the T/D stamp doesn't JUST contain the T/D (although you can
only access more detailed information with the right know-how), then it's
even more important to spoof it.

Doc'

From:	Pete Avenger@*******.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:03:37 -0000

Message no. 3 ----- Original Message -----
From: <michael.goldberg3@***.net>
To: <plotd@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 10:18 PM
Subject: Timestamp modifications

<snippus>
> Since a lot of people have wanted to have their
> characters do the timestamp modifications, I was curious
> what other people on the list think about timestamp
> modification and the career implications of doing it are
> for the various "shadowrunners"?

I'm with you on this Mike. Knowing that you can do it is just as good as
actually doing it. I've always considered spoofing a system with the T/D
stamp to be much like countermeasures in an aircraft. They are as much an
advert for "here I am" as being spotted by radar.

I don't particularly agree with spoofing T/D stamps but I can see why some
would, after all, you can stick cool messages like those used in the SR
books in there. :)

Seriously though, it's up to the individual, but I'm more on the side of
"the pro wouldn't, They don't need to, while the amateur will just to
prove they can."

Just my ha'penth worth

--
Pete

From:	Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:50:21 -0700

Message no. 4 At 09:36 08/11/2000 +1100, Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:

>Think about it - if you don't want people to know where you are, a time/date
>stamp is, at the very least, going to tell people what TIMEZONE you're in.

Judging by FASA canon, the time/date stamp is converted to
<viewerslocaltimezone> or GMT before the post is actually read. Now,
server-side it might be stored in the original senders time zone, but I
doubt it.

I think this is a case where "Just send the post according to your own time
zone" bites ShadowTK in the ass. :-)

Nonetheless, if you can spoof the T/D into displaying all sorts of random
crap, certainly you can give it a different time...

Adam
--
< The Shadowrun Supplemental? ShadowFAQ? Full Count? >
< Latest news about them all: http://staff.dumpshock.com/adamj/ >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >

From:	Ratinac, Rand (NSW) RRatinac@*****.redcross.org.au
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:57:23 +1100

Message no. 5 > >Think about it - if you don't want people to know where you are, a
time/date stamp is, at the very least, going to tell people what TIMEZONE
you're in.
>
> Judging by FASA canon, the time/date stamp is converted to
<viewerslocaltimezone> or GMT before the post is actually read. Now,
server-side it might be stored in the original senders time zone, but I
doubt it.

Well, maybe...but I think that's laziness on FASA's part. It's done like
that for the same reason that we don't make everyone standardize their
stamps - too much work. I don't think that, in reality, whoever is running
the boards who set them to convert T/D stamps for every viewer. There'd be
no return on it and it'd take up a lot of unnecessary processing time.

Then again, I suppose it's possible that they change them all to the T/D of
the BOARD when they're posted and leave them as that.

But I still don't think so. :)

> I think this is a case where "Just send the post according to your own
time zone" bites ShadowTK in the ass. :-)
>
> Nonetheless, if you can spoof the T/D into displaying all sorts of random
crap, certainly you can give it a different time...

Uh, no...you could do that if you could spoof the T/D into displaying a
CONTROLLED piece of crap. :) If it's just randomised, you can't turn it into
a date.

Of course, now you've got me thinking evil thoughts. :)

What if that's what the "top-notch" deckers do? They DO change the T/D stamp
- enough to make it hard to track them, but not enough to be noticeable - by
changing it to another T/D. Cool...

Doc'

From:	Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:01:55 -0700

Message no. 6 At 14:57 08/11/2000 +1100, Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:

>Then again, I suppose it's possible that they change them all to the T/D of
>the BOARD when they're posted and leave them as that.
>
>But I still don't think so. :)

That's what I meant. Almost every single piece of message board or webboard
software does that now - heck, my email client can convert all the times to
my local time zone.

>What if that's what the "top-notch" deckers do? They DO change the T/D
stamp
>- enough to make it hard to track them, but not enough to be noticeable - by
>changing it to another T/D. Cool...

This is also exactly what I said. Let's put it this way: it's easier to put
wrong data of the right type in the place of the TD stamp than it is to put
wrong data of the wrong type.

Does a TD stamp ever need a # symbol? !? ^%&? this? that? NO? NO! :)

All it needs is numbers - so giving it wrong numbers is likely more easier
than giving it wrong completely wrong characters.

Adam
--
< The Shadowrun Supplemental? ShadowFAQ? Full Count? >
< Latest news about them all: http://staff.dumpshock.com/adamj/ >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >

From:	Ratinac, Rand (NSW) RRatinac@*****.redcross.org.au
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:02:28 +1100

Message no. 7 > This is also exactly what I said.

Well, no...but I'm sure that's what you meant. :)

> Let's put it this way: it's easier to put wrong data of the right type in
the place of the TD stamp than it is to put wrong data of the wrong type.

Depends on HOW you do it.

> Does a TD stamp ever need a # symbol? !? ^%&? this? that? NO? NO! :)
>
> All it needs is numbers - so giving it wrong numbers is likely more easier
than giving it wrong completely wrong characters.

Mostly, yeah. But check out the method that Mark sold to Seraph. I think
that'd be an exception.

Doc'

From:	James Dening james.dening@****.co.uk
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:14:25 -0000

Message no. 8 >What is the shadowrun societal impact of a decker
>modifying his/her/its timestamp? By this I mean, what
>does it really indicate and is this ultimately a good
>thing or bad thing for the decker's reputation?

<snip>

Very, very good post, IMO.

I think I agree, that the reasonably hot deckers do it, as
a badge of "Hey, look how wiz I am". The real nova-hot
guys simply don't post, or post under assumed names
they discard every 24 hours or whatever.

It reminds me totally of kneesliders on motorbike leathers.
They're big nylon/leather pucks, velcro'ed onto your knee,
and it's considered a mark of honour amongst sports
riders on the road to be able to 'get your knee down'.

I used to go through a set a week, scraping them round
every roundabout/bend/slip road etc. I came to.

Nowaways, I'm a reasonably successful racer, and I hardly
use them up at all - I still get my knee on the deck on every
corner, but just a light touch, to feel where my lean angle is
(the whole point of it!) and then back off. I used to lean off
as far as I could and stick my leg out at right angles, *just*
to try and get my knee on the floor.

Nowadays, my cornerning lean is such that I actually have to
pull my knee *in* to get more ground clearance.

Exactly the same thing - for a *really* quick rider, scuffed kneesliders
aren't the same badge of 'hey, look, aren't I quick', that they are
for 'quick' road riders.

J.

From:	James Dening james.dening@****.co.uk
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:24:23 -0000

Message no. 9 >This is also exactly what I said. Let's put it this way: it's
>easier to put wrong data of the right type in the place of the TD stamp
than
>it is to put wrong data of the wrong type.
>
>Does a TD stamp ever need a # symbol? !? ^%&? this? that? NO? NO! :)
>
>All it needs is numbers - so giving it wrong numbers is likely
>more easier than giving it wrong completely wrong characters.

Not necessarily. For example - suppose the code that checked it, had a bug
that made it return an error if the time/date was an invalid (but correctly
formatted HH:MM:SS style) time/date, but with non-numeric numbers, the
function was overloaded and some weird boundary overflow made it work.

In my experience (C++, MFC Contractor), a wildly incorrect value may be
more likely to get through a checking algorithm that something that's
not *too* far out, on the grounds that software engineers tend to check
their routines against *obviously* wrong date - i.e. if you had a time/date
checker, you'd probably use test data that consisted of out of range
time and dates. However, it might not occur to you to use the first line
of the Declaration of Independance as an input! This is one of the main
sources of bugs in code, the coder saying "Yeah, but when would
anyone *ever* have that as an input?"

Anyone else interested in *real* ways of spoofing code?

J.

From:	michael.goldberg3@*.net michael.goldberg3@*.net
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:50:27 +0000

Message no. 10 Tracing posts: This came up several years ago in relation
to some things I was working on. The general impression
I was under is the following:

1) A decker lurking out on s-land node to actually trace
another denizen(s) of s-land is going to receive some
serious flak from other deckers if s/he is caught in the
act. Like to the point of a decker declaring immediate
war on the suspect and then having Sysop back him up.

2) I post all my posts in roughly GMT (assuming my math
skills are functioning at the time I'm working on the
post). Saves hassles of trying to emulate what time zone
the characters are on, and also doesn't confuse matters
with where I'm posting.

3) In just normal day to day activity, I send a post from
this account. It shows up (possibly depending on the
reader) with a timestamp that indicates that it was sent
from Mountain US timezone (with Daylight Savings). If
you had the right type of mail program and not receiving
the messages via a list, you would be able to trace it to
a router that it went through.

I would imagine it would be relatively simple matter (at
least for a competent decker) to send the message so that
it looked like it was coming from a different location.

4) Using for an example my decker Ratspeak ... The
"rodent" is paranoid enough to discard handles left and
right to cover its tracks. Ratspeak has already made its
name, so it doesn't need additional fame. For sake of
making sense in a story on this list, I hide the fact
that he would discard handles just to make things
manageable.

(I use "it", because only a handful of characters on
shadowtk (past and present) even know what gender
Ratspeak actually is.)

5) If I were doing the sys admin for a node like
Shadowland, I would purposely chop off all routing
information on a post anyway. It makes it more secure
and reduces temptation from corporations and governments
to tamper with the community too much.

With all that said, I like the discussion that is taking
place.

Mike

From:	Mark L. Neidengard mneideng@****.caltech.edu
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:09:22 -0800 (PST)

Message no. 11 According to michael.goldberg3@***.net:
>Tracing posts: This came up several years ago in relation
>to some things I was working on. The general impression
>I was under is the following:
>
>1) A decker lurking out on s-land node to actually trace
>another denizen(s) of s-land is going to receive some
>serious flak from other deckers if s/he is caught in the
>act. Like to the point of a decker declaring immediate
>war on the suspect and then having Sysop back him up.

I dunno - attacking other deckers within the Shadowland LTG itself is surely
frowned upon, but I rather think the sysops keep a rather small security
envelope, meaning that _outside_ of the LTG things are fair game. In other
words, if someone _really_ wants to "ambush" a decker by lurking in the
bushes "outside" Shadowland, I don't think it's either preventable or anything
the sysops would really bitch about too much. They probably have some sort
of routine security patrol that tries to keep their immediate "grounds" free
of suspicious types, but most likely no more.

>I would imagine it would be relatively simple matter (at
>least for a competent decker) to send the message so that
>it looked like it was coming from a different location.

Yes, it should be....although people who were set up ahead of time _might_ be
able to intercept the message on the inbounds and try to trace it..

>5) If I were doing the sys admin for a node like
>Shadowland, I would purposely chop off all routing
>information on a post anyway. It makes it more secure
>and reduces temptation from corporations and governments
>to tamper with the community too much.

Definitely, the problem isn't with the posts once they get inside Shadowland.
The problem is with the info while it's in transit.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, EE Grad, VLSI. http://keyframe.cjas.org/~mneideng/
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Maigo no Daigakuinsei, Cornell U.
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict

From:	Ratinac, Rand (NSW) RRatinac@*****.redcross.org.au
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:42:36 +1100

Message no. 12 > With all that said, I like the discussion that is taking place.

*shrug*

Good points. Guess it isn't really necessary, then.

Still, Seraph's paid for it IC, so she's going to keep using it. Silly not
to. :)

Doc'

From:	Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Wed, 08 Nov 2000 17:51:02 -0700

Message no. 13 At 11:24 08/11/2000 +0000, James Dening wrote:

>>Does a TD stamp ever need a # symbol? !? ^%&? this? that? NO? NO! :)
>>
>>All it needs is numbers - so giving it wrong numbers is likely
>>more easier than giving it wrong completely wrong characters.
>
>Not necessarily. For example - suppose the code that checked it, had a bug
>that made it return an error if the time/date was an invalid (but correctly
>formatted HH:MM:SS style) time/date, but with non-numeric numbers, the
>function was overloaded and some weird boundary overflow made it work.
>
>In my experience (C++, MFC Contractor), a wildly incorrect value may be
>more likely to get through a checking algorithm that something that's
>not *too* far out, on the grounds that software engineers tend to check
>their routines against *obviously* wrong date - i.e. if you had a time/date
>checker, you'd probably use test data that consisted of out of range
>time and dates. However, it might not occur to you to use the first line
>of the Declaration of Independance as an input! This is one of the main
>sources of bugs in code, the coder saying "Yeah, but when would
>anyone *ever* have that as an input?"
>
>Anyone else interested in *real* ways of spoofing code?

Quickly, what I would do when coding a routine to check if the syntax of a
timestamp was right:

1. Check that it's 6 characters long (HH:MM:SS). If not, reject.
2. Check that it's made of 6 numerals. If not, reject. Byebye Declaration
of Independance.
3. Check the first two numbers to be sure they're in the range of 00-24.
Third and Fourth numbers, 00-60, and the same with the Fifth and Sixth,
00-60. If any of these are wrong, reject.

But, what I would do if I was coding a system that implemented timestamps,
which I've done:

1. Use the local time of the machine it's running on, which can be adjusted
as a user views it to GMT or any other worldwide timezone with a minimum of
fuss.

Without actually doing something that breaks the bypass routines, I think
forging a timestamp is impossible on any system that's written by someone
with half a clue. Someone running something like Shadowland, which is a
/target/ for cracks, is much more likely to be secure and free of input
introduced errors than some app developed in house by a company to track
hours worked, wages, and when people arrive at the office.

Adam
--
< The Shadowrun Supplemental? ShadowFAQ? Full Count? >
< Latest news about them all: http://staff.dumpshock.com/adamj/ >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >

From:	kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:02:16 -0500

Message no. 14 From: "Adam J" <adamj@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 19:51

> Quickly, what I would do when coding a routine to check if the syntax of a
> timestamp was right:
>
> 1. Check that it's 6 characters long (HH:MM:SS). If not, reject.
> 2. Check that it's made of 6 numerals. If not, reject. Byebye Declaration
> of Independance.
> 3. Check the first two numbers to be sure they're in the range of 00-24.
> Third and Fourth numbers, 00-60, and the same with the Fifth and Sixth,
> 00-60. If any of these are wrong, reject.

This would only be done on a local basis. :) Even GridSec would have a hard time running
that kinda of verification theme on *every* post made across the entire Seattle Matrix.
Can you imagine the type of processing power that would need?? I imagine it is something
of a local time-stamp hardware with a flash component that could be set by GridSec or
whatever.
>
> But, what I would do if I was coding a system that implemented timestamps,
> which I've done:
>
> 1. Use the local time of the machine it's running on, which can be adjusted
> as a user views it to GMT or any other worldwide timezone with a minimum of
> fuss.
>

Agreed, which would mean that the T/D would have to be done on the local machine.
Otherwise, the message would have a T/D of the first 'public' host that it hits (or
router, if you prefer).

> Without actually doing something that breaks the bypass routines, I think
> forging a timestamp is impossible on any system that's written by someone
> with half a clue. Someone running something like Shadowland, which is a
> /target/ for cracks, is much more likely to be secure and free of input
> introduced errors than some app developed in house by a company to track
> hours worked, wages, and when people arrive at the office.
>

Hmm. That's not necessarily true. Machines have no concept of time, and code can't be made
to verify that information is accurate beyond that it is in an acceptable range. (And if
you dig deep enough into any code, the range is even mutable. :) Love that assembly. ;))
That said, let me give you an example. There is currently an DNS issue between my email
alias and the pop server that I grab my mail from. So, every couple of hours, I have to go
to a shell on the alias machine and unqueue my mail to send it down to my pop server. When
that happens, *all* the mail I have unqueued has the T/D of the current time that I
unqueued my mail. Hence, I tend to get messages in batches, where topics will be out of
order because the 'sort by received date' doesn't work too well when it all comes in at
once. ;) Something of that nature would be doable on the Matrix as well. If I had a
mainframe or some other major component of the trix, like routers of today, I would be
able to spoof T/D to an alternative time. Perhaps not erase it or even spam it like Seraph
has, but spoofing it to an different TmZ should be easy. The reason, I believe, that FASA
said it was so hard is because how many deckers do you know with mainframes or other major
components that make up the data transfer backbone of the matrix? ;) That said, I'm going
back to working on my post about how Kenshin is spoofing Tron and Yakko's T/D. ;) (In case
you haven't noticed, almost all of Tron and Yakko's posts are made exactly at 00 second...
;) It's a start.)

> Adam

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii

From:	James Dening james.dening@****.co.uk
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:05:39 -0000

Message no. 15 <snip>
>that >>>>he<<<< would discard handles just to make things
>manageable.

>(I use "it", because only a handful of characters on
>shadowtk (past and present) even know what gender
>Ratspeak actually is.)

Whoops!

From:	James Dening james.dening@****.co.uk
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:25:24 -0000

Message no. 16 >Quickly, what I would do when coding a routine to check if the
>syntax of a
>timestamp was right:
>
>1. Check that it's 6 characters long (HH:MM:SS). If not, reject.
>2. Check that it's made of 6 numerals. If not, reject. Byebye
>Declaration
>of Independance.
>3. Check the first two numbers to be sure they're in the range
>of 00-24.
>Third and Fourth numbers, 00-60, and the same with the Fifth
>and Sixth,
>00-60. If any of these are wrong, reject.

Ah. Well, now, if you want to get technical.... ;-)

Suppose your string length routine doesn't work with numbers
outside a certain range - 2 bytes or 4 or whatever? Now, you, as the
coder, might just write

if (strlen(inputString)>=MAXSTRINGLENGTH)
{
DoSomeErrorStuff()
}

And everything's dandy. *BUT*!!! The hacker might be exploiting the
fact that he knows the system is a Sun Version 30, for which there's
only one compiler in general use - GNU C Version 2061. And, in that,
there's a bug in the strlen routine, that, if you pass it a string that's
more
than 16384 chars long, it returns an incorrect value...

You see what I mean? This is how 95% of 'real' hacking (not guessing
passwords etc.) is done - it's exploiting known weaknesses in OSs,
compilers etc. - which is why hacks tend to be out of date very quickly,
because as soon as the sysadmin community know about it, they amend
the source code for the public domain strlen code to work properly.

You, as the *application* programmer would never know....

Good way to hack UNIX - find their source code - usually fairly unprotected,
and change the login.c file to *always* accept some hardcoded ID and
password. They can change password files all they like....

Even more subtle is changing the source code for the *compiler*. So, they
look carefully at the source for the login code, but it's fine. However, the
compiler looks at source file names, and when it finds 'login.c', it changes
a return value to be 'retVal || CheckPasswordAgainstBackdoor(idstring,
pass_string);

Nice. :-)

As you can see, I had a misspent youth.

J.

From:	Dan Waisley Dan.Waisley@***.EDU
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Thu, 09 Nov 2000 09:58:18 -0700

Message no. 17 --Boundary_(ID_iIZOb+15VkTS9qe5bKsk4g)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Hmmm,

I think we need to track down the process of HOW messages are posted.

Here was the general idea In The Beginning (TM)
Though we didn't really define it as such and we left it sort of vague.
ie.
We wrote COOL FICTION (TM) and worried later (if ever) on the HOW.

Heck - at the time SHADOWLAND was only known by how the source books were
presented

Normal Messages (Not private or internal)

1. Deck into SHADOWLAND regional hub
2. Go to message boards.
a. Find area that you like
b. Insert comment
3. Repeat 2. as necessary

Private Message

a. Possibly left at Shadowland in drop boxes known only to the people involved
b. Sent encrypted over normal email.
c. Some other means

Internal
1. Internal Corporate mail or bulletin board

Nightfox
Lurk
Lurk
Lurk

--Boundary_(ID_iIZOb+15VkTS9qe5bKsk4g)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<html>
 
Hmmm, 
 
I think we need to track down the process of HOW messages are posted.
 
 
Here was the general idea  In The Beginning (TM) 
Though we didn't really define it as such and we left it sort of
vague. 
ie.    
We wrote COOL FICTION (TM) and worried later (if ever) on the HOW. 
 
Heck - at the time SHADOWLAND was only known by how the source books were
presented 
 
 
Normal Messages   (Not private or internal) 
 
1.  Deck into SHADOWLAND regional hub 
2.  Go to message boards. 
<x-tab>        </x-tab>a. 
Find area that you like 
<x-tab>        </x-tab>b. 
Insert comment 
3. Repeat 2. as necessary 
 
Private Message 
 
a.  Possibly left at Shadowland in drop boxes known only to the
people involved 
b.  Sent encrypted over normal email. 
c.   Some other means 
 
Internal 
1.  Internal Corporate mail or bulletin board 
 
 
 
Nightfox 
Lurk 
<x-tab>        </x-tab>Lurk

 
<x-tab>        </x-tab><x-tab>        </x-tab>Lurk</html>

--Boundary_(ID_iIZOb+15VkTS9qe5bKsk4g)--

From:	Paul J. Adam PlotD@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:21:24 +0000

Message no. 18 In message <20001107221859.KQNI18967.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@*******.
worldnet.att.net>, michael.goldberg3@***.net writes
>Just a musing as I avoid work for a brief moment --
>
>What is the shadowrun societal impact of a decker
>modifying his/her/its timestamp? By this I mean, what
>does it really indicate and is this ultimately a good
>thing or bad thing for the decker's reputation?

Depends. Quinn thinks it would be cool to do, but she's fairly crazy.
Jake Karlsbruhn does it routinely, but he's (a) crazy and (b) military,
hence rather more secure from threats and less worried about what
possible employers might think.

My other characters either lack the means (Quinn doesn't either, but the
folks who handle her account could try on her behalf) to change the T/D,
or feel doing so would be ostentatious when untraceability (as in,
stripping out all hints of where the post's writer might be) is so much
more important.

>Since a lot of people have wanted to have their
>characters do the timestamp modifications, I was curious
>what other people on the list think about timestamp
>modification and the career implications of doing it are
>for the various "shadowrunners"?

A decent summary, I think. It's a symbol of ability (your own or someone
else's), it's a boost to the ego, but it may also give clues to a rival
or enemy and may be seen as flamboyant or ostentatious.

I do concur that it should be kept rare for a while, though, and that it
should continue to need an explanation of how it's done... I'll see
about updating and reposting the FAQ (been terrible busy with the MSc
course I just started, plus work's kicked up a new big project)

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	Michael Goldberg michael.goldberg3@********.att.net
Subject:	Timestamp modifications
Date:	Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:50:14 -0700

Message no. 19 James Dening wrote:
><snip>
>>that >>>>he<<<< would discard handles just to make things
>>manageable.
>
>>(I use "it", because only a handful of characters on
>>shadowtk (past and present) even know what gender
>>Ratspeak actually is.)
>
>Whoops!

//LAUGH// It's a good thing I'm so erratic about re-reading my posts.
*bonks head in amusement*

Food for thought ... Brian Rogers proved in a series of conversations we
had off-list that Ratspeak was female. I told him at the end, if that works
for him, I'm cool with it. My response is basically "It seems reasonable."
For all it really matters, Brian could have decided with the "proof" I put
on the list that Ratspeak is transvestite. That would have been just fine
too.

Until a list member has a character (other than mine) actually knowingly
meet Ratspeak in person, I will switch the pronoun used to describe Ratspeak
between him, her, and it. (Which is why I usually try to use "it" even
though editing becomes tedious.) Even afterwards, I may continue to do it.

Heck, I have probably in some off-list posts to various people switched in
mid e-mail/conversation which pronoun I was using. In the end, it really
doesn't matter. A major reason why I continued using the rodent in the
first place is this: What does street-side gender and metatype matter to
person who thinks living equals decking?

Ratspeak, in truth, lasted a lot longer than I would have ever expected,
because originally, it was just a throw away character to do some devil
advocate when I had free time to dedicate to the list. One of Ratspeak's
first posts was to defend Nightmare from some vicious attacks he was
receiving (the beginning of Nightmare's conflicts with Action Jackson, if I
recall correctly) because the rodent felt "no one else would".

After a while it became apparent I needed to flesh out the character some
more.

But all in all is this ... I may occasionally use a pronoun other than "it"
to describe the rodent. It all comes down to what you really want to
believe. Most of the time, I view the Ratspeak persona the same gender you
would give a program or a ship or a computer. Sometimes it is a "she",
sometimes it is a "he", sometimes it is just an "it". Really just
depends
on what mood I'm in.

Have I actually figured out what gender (and race for that matter) Ratspeak
actually is outside of the matrix? Yes. But not when I first came up with
the character. //shrug//

Have fun with the conspiracy. I sure try to ... //grin//
Mike

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer