| From: | Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Tommy Two Totems (Looooong post) (was: Totem switching) |
| Date: | Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:34:44 -0700 |
It looks like I opened a big can o’ worms with the Totem comments
(what I hoped for, really). A lot of people had comments along similar
lines,
so instead of responding the the dozen or so individually, I’m going to=
make
one general reply (I’ll single out individuals later...)
I’ll try and keep it in line with my orignal post (I’m doing a lot of=
cut/paste here
- this also means the quoting is messed up; hope I attrib everyone
correctly)
and I’ll try and keep you all sorted out, but apologies if I get you
confused.
I am one and you are many.
{begin}
>Okay: Couple odd strands on switching totems.
(....)
>What if more than one Totem chooses an individual?
Impossible. There isn't a cabal of totems sitting in a teepee
somewhere arguing about who get's who in the next draft. Each
individual shaman exhibits traits that mimic those of the totem. =
The
totem doesn't actually give the power, the powers mimic those of
the
totem. The power comes first, but gets linked to the totem. Look
at
all of the similar totems. It comes down to how the character
perceives the source of his power.
(Mr. Frypp)
<Who says there isn’t a cabal of Totems? SR doesn’t anthropomorphize=
Totems,
but it doesn’t *not* anthropomorphize -- that is to say, it leaves
*both* options
open. “Totems choose” is all it says; for all we know, it could be d=
one
baseball
style; Mr. Two Totems is simply getting traded to a different team.
<As far as all the psychological mumbo; that’s not out of any
sourcebook. A Totem
certainly has the ability to choose someone who’s opposed to magic, but=
might grow
into power. (If you buy Totems choosing at birth, *every* Totem does
this, since magic
is a learned skill. If you follow that a character absolutely relies on
Mama Totem to do
any mojo, s/he *still* has no appreciable skill.)
<And you pit your own argument; if it all comes down to how a character
*perceives*,
what happens when that perception changes?
<The only thing that separates mages from mundanes is a game statistic
(you picked
Priority A, so you get to perceive yourself into working magic.) =
*Right,* Try again.
<The whole “How does a Totem choose a shaman” is another long and ver=
y
interesting;
but... for another time, perhaps.
>What if a Totem abandons one character... and another decides to pick
>him up? ("You were not meant to follow Shark, the ravager; you were
>meant to follow Dolphin, the true prince of the seas!" Okay, that
>sounded really hackneyed...)
Impossible. The Universe does not screw up.
(Mr. Frypp)
<It’s not the Universe (just watch the Into the Fire rerun?) It’s a
Totem.
That invests the Totems with a lot of sentience...
(Mark Neidenberg)
>What if a Totem chooses incorrectly?
And fallibility...
(Mark Neidenberg)
Impossible. For one thing, totems cannot be anthropomorphized,
even
the German idols which are flat out anthropomorphic. They don't
"choose". It's nature. You're a Coyote and there's nothing that
cn
be done about it. Oh, sure, you can refuse to follow, but you're a
mundane then. Maybe all mudanes are just people who refuse to
follow
their totems. Doesn't explain mages, though... unless they follow
the Totem of Science or the Elements.... Maybe elementals are just
variants of nature spirits.....
(Mr. Frypp)
<Here, I’ll make it obvious: Dog chooses Lou to be his shaman because,=
well, Louie likes to wag his tongue a lot. After a disillusioning
adventure,
Lou turns toxic.
<Dog chose *realllllllll* wrong
<And as far as refusing a Totem making one a mundane, there *are* rules
for it. But look at it this way: I might not like the world I’m
looking out at.
(Maybe it’s the Barrens; maybe it’s an overglitzy corpmall.) That
doesn’t
mean I’m going to *stop seeing* More than likely, I’m going to try a=
nd
find
a new lifestyle. Maybe I’ll learn to love where I’m at -- but maybe,=
for *me*
following Goat *is* like living in the Barrens (even if Goat chose me.)
<Perhaps a Totem can pick *too* well. If you have the exact mindset
that
your Totem supposedly possesses, you’re stagnating; you’ll be
comfortable
where you are, and that’s dangerous. Being a Son of Goat might be the
most natural thing for me -- got the horns and beard and all! - but it
might also
be the most harmful. =
>What if a character *thinks* she's following one Totem.. but it's
>another, in disguise? (Coyote *is* the trickster spirit, after all, and=
>in Native American legend could often be found in Raven's feathers.)
Kind of baroque, isn't it?
(Mark Neidenberg)
Then the magic would most likely leave. Since the shaman's
fundamentals, id, morals, whatever you choose to call it are tied
directly to their totem, if a shaman's fundamentals change enough,
I
could see the totem disowning the shaman. But, I don't know if I
think
another totem might "pick the shaman up off the rebound."
Brad Shantz
<Why not?
<A, you’re getting someone who’s at least familiar with magic. B, if=
the
character’s nature has turned *away* from one Totem, it might just have=
turned toward *yours* (eg, that Shark/Dolphin thing.)
<And who says Totems aren’t necessarily territorial? Wolves can be
ferociously protective of their hunting grounds, even against other
wolf packs -- this holds true for most of the canine Totems -- and
we don’t have to go into Dog/Cat/Rat/Cheese Shaman warfare, either.
<There’s no mechanic for how a Totem chooses a shaman, except that it’=
s
a part of character creation. But a Totem does the choosing -- that’s
an
action on its part, not someone else’s unconscious. If I were a Totem,=
I’d want all the mana-active folks I could get my hands on.
>Although I'm (slightly) opposed to "religious" Totems, what if there was=
>a 'missionary' Totem whose job was to convert others to its own?
One, Doc Grizzle was (while he was living) a very religious Jew,
including not using magic on the Sabbath. He was a Bear Shaman,
and
was absolutely convinced that Bear was one of many physical
manifestations of God.
+
Having a totem doesn't preclude believing in a religion.
(Mike Goldberg)
<I’ve made a similar point elsewhere (rec.games.frp.cyber, to be exact.=
)
Why not? I've always thought a Catholic or Muslim totem-like thing
would be cool. Hell, imagine what a Zen Buddhist shamanic adept
could do you. And what's to say that physads that link their power
to their religion _aren't_ religious-totem shamanic adepts running
lots of self-oriented spells?
(Mr. Frypp) =
<My slightly opposition comes from seeing too many Muslim characters
that know only one word: Jihad. (This is, I admit, a perception based
on others
gaming, not you.)
<Note: I said “slightly.” Not fervently, not completely, and, more
importantly,
I am willing to entertain the idea. With the exception of
televangelists....
I guess you could say I’m about as opposed to religion in SR as I am
about
shamans switching Totems..... :)
<Sounds to me, though, that you’re basing your perceptions of shamanic
Zen guy on *popular* perception, not the character’s *personal*
perception.
Are you retracting your earlier statement?
<Myself, I’ve always found that the closer I come to a particular group=
,
the
less influenced I am by others’ perceptions of it. I think the Shaolin=
adept
would be no more or less powerful than other physad -- though the
foolish
and unlearned might give him wider berth. Anyone else getting into a
fight
with him is going to be concentrating on knocking his lights out, not
staring
at his saffron robes and thinking, “I should be dead by now!”
Insect converts others shamans to it, but that is more of how FASA
set =
up Insect totems. In my own mind, totems don't try to convert
people. =
Either they belong to the totem or they don't. I can't see two of
the =
totems approved for players (in the rules for Shadowrun) fighting
over =
an individual.
(michael.goldberg)
<But: Why not? Along religious lines, a Messiah is born. I think
*every*
Totem would want to be seen as working through Her. (you might end up
with Saint Francis, beloved of all animals.. mebbe even roaches.
<Along Judaeo-Christian lines: Jacob climbed the ladder and wrestled
with
the Angel of God. Who’s to say you can’t wrestle with your Totem -- =
and
not
get pegged heinously? It may just lead to a better understanding of
your Totem
<For the more secular-minded: what about an Elf destined for power --
reincarnated from Earthdawn or whatever. What if a Totem could have one
of his agents act,
and have Romulus and Remus suckled on ... lobsters, I don’t know. =
Totems
may or may not have precognition, but they do have foresight enough to
choose someone without much/any magical skill.
>And what if a character really *does* change, rather fundamentally? I'm=
>very not the person I was twelve years ago, though I wouldn't relate who=
>I am/was in terms of Totems....
Then they go Apostate, lose their Totem, and find another...isn't
there
something about that in the Grimoire or somewhere (don't have them
right at
hand to check).
(Mark Neidenberg)
Then the final totem steered the character to his destiny and the
character was mistaken.
(Mr. Frypp)
<>And all the time I thought I was following Raven (those +2
manipulation dice
came in handy with all those Control <foo> spells I love casting) it was
really
Coyote (no bonuses)??
<You’re contradicting yourself again: the character’s perception is
rooted in one
particular mindset. That mindset changes; people grow old or
disaffected with where
they were go through mid-life (mid-Totem) crises. *That* is
roleplaying. not, “Oh, I’m
a Shark shaman, so I’m a stealthy vicious predator” Real people aren=
’t
like that --
with maybe the exception of serial murderers.
>House rule (1): What if a Totem *died*? In one of my early campaigns,
>Eagle bought it after the last bald eagle died; once the "ideal" eagle
>was gone, the "ideal" of Eagle departed, too. (Now cloning's feasible,
>and *that* thread is undone...)
<I won’t argue this too much, since it’s an old run and I don’t pla=
n on
pulling
it on Shadowtk.
My view is that the ideal is formed by the consensus of living
beings, not by
the existence of some fleshly approximation to the ideal. I might
go to the
extent of believing that a "new" Totem could be created if enough
people
believed in it (though I hesitate to suggest specifics of what or
how), but
I believe that (for example) animal totems could persist long after
the actual
animals are gone.
(Mark Neidenberg)
<Again: The “ideal” animal dies - not something you *wouldn’t* rea=
ct to
as an Eagle shaman, eh? - and has enough ‘psychic repercussion’ that =
the ideal goes with it. (The American
dream died long ago in Shadowrun, so *that* ain’t around to buoy it.) =
Even more of a blow if
Eagle appears to you as a Bald Eagle.
<I’m waiting for Dino-shamans. Pretty hard to deny that they’re part=
of
current culture.
All memory of Eagle would have to be destroyed along with it. Look
at Gator. Gator is an urban totem only because myth puts 'gators
in
the sewers.
(Mr. Frypp)
>House rule (2):
<leaving this alone for awhile; most of the arguments have
been repeated
>Off-topic thought (1): What if a toxic shaman tried to redeem himself?
(Shades of Dark Force points!)
Change-of-Totem time. Of course, there might be a little mental
illness to
contend with..
(Mark Neidenberg)
<Scenario: I was a Daughter of Snake. Thought she was just a healer, =
but she
started leading me elsewhere -- “Think like a cobra” she said, and sh=
e
taught me
dark ways of venom. I killed someone I loved because Snake, curse her,
made me
think she was dying for a higher cause.
<Now I learn there are other healers, Bear shamans, who rumble through
the woods
I left behind when I followed Snake up the mountain. Perhaps Bear can
lead me to
heal again, to cure this sickness in my heart.
The use of toxic magic would warp the character's aura enough that
magic wouldn't pass through the same way. I might allow it,
though,
for an extremly convincing player provided the character loses all
initiation, skill increases made during the toxic period (after all
toxic sorcery works different than pure sorcery), any familiar
conjured during the period, huge, huge, huge karma costs and
anything
else I could think of.
(Mr. Frypp)
<On the other foot: I’ve seen *more* of magic than most people do;
specifically,
how it was meant *not* to be done. I might break the Astral Connection
with the
vicious team of slots I Initiated with, but I’m not likely to forget
there are such things
as metaplanes or how to get to them.
>Off-topic thought (2): What if an insect shaman got tired and wanted to=
>hang up the old exoskeleton?
(Most people, myself included, agreed the shaman was lunchmeat.)
>I guess the problem lies in FASA's production of Totems as *not*
>anthropomorphic -- personally, I think someone who follows Snake might
>have as hard a time relating with "normal" people as one who prays to
>Spider, but that's just me. I'd hate to see game stats for Totems
>(reminds me a bit too much of Deities and Demigods, and the fact that
>most of the characters I'd seen were tougher, excepting superpowers.)
Only in the game you play. Sounds like you run power gamers who're
just in it for the dice. Use mages if you want magic. Shamans are
for role-players, not power gamers.
(Mr. Frypp)
<Frypp, I’ll have to take time to think up an insult deserving for you.=
=
Ordinary
ones don't hack it.
<You won’t break out of lockstep with the current interpretation of
Totem-shaman
relations, but you *will* forward very un-SR ideas that all mages,
especially elemental
adepts are secretly shamans, and physads are religious pro-Totem, ad
naus.
<I engaged in this in a spirit of play; my first comment was that I was
*leery of the
possible munchkin factor.* (I take “power gamer” to be one of the
lowest insults,
thankyoukindly.)
<By the way, *FASA* disagrees with you, vis a vis role-playing; players
are specifically
told to choose a Totem that’s easy to role-play. I hold mages and
shamans at about equal;
Shamans get bonus dice, but usually with a drawback beside roleplaying. =
The spirits about
equal each other out. (Lodges are cheaper than libraries, though.)
>For the most part, except for tossing out bonus dice and expecting a
>little play-acting in return, they're out of the picture.
>But who's to say Totems aren't unerring? Especially the ones that come
>closer to modelling themselves on Man?
....Shamans don't do things because they are good at it. They do
things because they feel a need to do it. Doc Grizzle and
DragonEyes
(at least in the past) felt a need to heal people. Because of
that,
they eventually became very good at it. Not vice versa. Why is
DragonEyes rather horrendous in combat? Mostly because until
recently, he felt that he had no need to concern himself of the
methods of causing violence to others.
(Mike Goldberg)
<Again, it’s a large loophole; people just aren’t that static. If it=
’s
all rooted
in perecption, and that perception changes, then the Totem per force
would have to
as well.
<I’ll recant what I said about FASA not anthropomorphizing Totems,
because they
don’t really make a mark either way in any sourcebook. In novels
(Charette’s trilogy)
the Totems are *very* active in their shaman’s live.
Sorry if I got flamish
