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From:	Jeffrey Jacob Mach <mach@****.caltech.edu>
Subject:	Re: uh-ummmm....No....
Date:	Sat, 27 Jul 1996 21:06:25 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 1 Hopefully to clear up any misconceptions as to "magic missiles".

On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Jaimie Nicholson wrote:

> >In SR II, they talk about how mages can cast through focii, similarly they
> >explain how spell locks work in this matter. Now the rub comes in when
> >you have a mage who (hypothetically) creates spell locks shaped like
> >, say, arrows. Then goes out with his/her bow and shoots a couple
> >adversaries with said spell lock/arrows. Said mage then immediately
> >grounds out a highly volatile physical spell through the spell lock/arrow.
> >The spell lock is consumed in the casting and blasts the adversaries as
> >a group.
>
> The mage could just cast a spell at them, and not use the arrow in the
> first place.
Hear hear!

> That way is just a waste of a spell lock (unless you go pry it
> out of the tortured bodies of your victims) and the karma to bond it.
To clear up a slight misconception (probably from fatigue) spell locks
are not bound in the same way as foci. They do however cost 1 point of
Karma to "activate" and thereby sustain a spell as long as they are
active. While active, they may be acted against like a force 1 focus.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the spell lock must remain on the
wearer's person, so you can't get away with a sustained damaging
manipulation firing at somebody, lock it, then chuck the lock at them and
run like it was the Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch.

> You could have a second mage in astral space, and he/she/it could do the
> grounding thing, but this is not the most efficient way to kill people. If
> your foes start using it, 1)they do the same amount of damage that they
> could have done by easier ways, and 2) you get to harvest spell locks (at
> 45 knY a pop) if you survive.
Agreed, plus you get to force them to spend massive ammounts of Karma
needlessly ;) For example, one point of Good Karma (_not_ Karma Pool) on
a spell lock, or potentially dozens of points on a foci. Not that many
runners would mind getting a focus tossed into their lap.

>
> >This sounds a great deal like magic missile weapons. Of course, it would be
> >a tremendous pain to spell lock a belt of ammunition, but, according to
> >the rules, this could work.
For the Artificer, nearly imposible because a belt of ammunition is
extreemly modified material. Don't even ask about caseless. And
according to the rules, it wouldn't work as per above and below.

>
> The reason enchanted missiles don't work is that they leave contact with
> the mage, right? So enchant the gun or bow.

More or less, the reason there are no such things as enchanted
missiles, is that once the item leaves the mage's aura, it is not
connected to him/er anymore, so they cannot affect/control the item as
though it were a spell lock/foci on his/er person. This is at least the
excuse that FASA had to avoid some degree of munchkinism. As per
enchanting the gun/bow, it still wouldn't work because the enchantment is
on the launch system, and not the projectile that does the damage,
therefore the item would not do mystically enhanced damage (as per the
extra dice you get to roll with a weapon focus) nor would it allow the
damage to be extended to creatures with protection from normal weapons,
(because it is still a mundane projectile hitting them). Mages are more
than welcome to enchant a bow into a weapon focus, however it will only
gain them benefits if they konk somebody over the head with the bow and
not by shooting them with an arrow. I do believe, however, that there
does exist a spell, perhaps in Awakenings that allows one to give the
target a super-human sense of targeting to lower target numbers as per a
smartlink. Spell locking this onto a bow might be reasonable, because
you are affecting the person firing the arrow and not the arrow being
fired. Plus you would probably be launching the arrow from the bow, so
the bow would definitely be "on your person."

--My 2 yen

Jeff Mach

P.S. I am speaking without the benefit of access to sourcebooks at this
juncture, please double check anything I might have said regarding FASA
cannon before accepting/using it.

P.P.S. So to answer a question: No Dave, unless your foes are STUPID
and have both money and Good Karma to _burn_, you don't have to worry
about anybody using anything like a magic missile against you. You just
have the usual fireballs, lightning bolts, explosive heavy pistol rounds,
grenades, etc. to worry about ^_^.

From:	Nightblade <wgreason@*****.ocis.temple.edu>
Subject:	Re: uh-ummmm....No....
Date:	Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:43:31 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 2 On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, Jeffrey Jacob Mach wrote:
>
> > That way is just a waste of a spell lock (unless you go pry it
> > out of the tortured bodies of your victims) and the karma to bond it.
> To clear up a slight misconception (probably from fatigue) spell locks
> are not bound in the same way as foci. They do however cost 1 point of
> Karma to "activate" and thereby sustain a spell as long as they are
> active. While active, they may be acted against like a force 1 focus.
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the spell lock must remain on the
> wearer's person, so you can't get away with a sustained damaging
> manipulation firing at somebody, lock it, then chuck the lock at them and
> run like it was the Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch.

OK OK ... the "magic missile" system doesn't work as easily as I made it
sound. But no one has addressed the point of a SPELL LOCKED ARROW with a
sustained spell like CONTROL THOUGHTS on it. Once the spell is bound on
it, anyone can fire the arrow. The lock NEED NOT remain in the possession
of the mage to activate it. Once a target touches the lock, the spell goes
into effect on them. (this happened in an SR textbook adventure, I've
forgotten which.) Now, the lock is embedded in the target who is thought
controlled by the mage, the target then opens fire on his buddies around
him.

AGREED! It doesn't matter if the mage grounds a physical area effect spell
through the lock, IT IS EASIER TO just cast the spell at them. However, in
a situation where a mundane, armed with a bow, is down and the foes
are closing in, one enchanted missile could be fired at a foe. The foe
goes nuts on his buddies, then an astrally active mage (who normally
wouldn't be able to help out the cornered individual against his mundane
opponents) would be able to ground out an instantaneous damaging
manipulation against the whole group of foes.

ADMITTEDLY! This isn't immediately useful in each and every circumstance.
But my point was to conceive a way of enchanting missiles. To my knowledge
of the rules, that is done. It is expensive -- monetarily and karmically
-- but it might save someone's hide sometime.

AND! For the issue of the spell lock/arrow surviving the physical
grounding, (SR II, p 138) if the spell wins (the attack on the spell lock
or focus), the spell focus bonding is broken. This renders the focus
useless, and the spell grounds into the physical material of the focus.
This means that the focus/lock is not NECESSARILY destroyed, but the
damaging manipulation will do something to it. And if the arrow is made
of wood or a light-weight metal, it could VERY REALISTICALLY get trashed by
the grounding process. Furthermore, the lock would lose its bonding
cutting the bond to the mage. Of course, the CONTROL THOUGHTS sustained
effect is lost, but that target will have to worry about the grounding
spell and the arrow exploding inside of him/her still. :)

> P.P.S. So to answer a question: No Dave, unless your foes are STUPID
> and have both money and Good Karma to _burn_, you don't have to worry
> about anybody using anything like a magic missile against you. You just
> have the usual fireballs, lightning bolts, explosive heavy pistol rounds,
> grenades, etc. to worry about ^_^.
>

Ignoring the tone that "PPS", most corps would have both money and karma
to burn for an advantage. HOWEVER, much more important is the fact that
I was being facetiously panic-striken by the possibility of a magic missile.
I recognize that it is hard to recognize such sarcasm in an email message.
But some degree of decorum should be exercise when replying to such a line.
To be real, I'm more than satisfied with the firepower at corporate disposal;
however, that feeling does not stop me from investigating the theoretical
possibilities of magical applications.

And that's precisely what this discussion is - academic. If at some point
it should have some practical use to someone great. If not, fine, too.
To be real, I'm designing a new character and considered the possibility
until I saw the costs involved. But it STILL provided an interesting
theoretical discussion.

AND just to close things out, the reason a spell lock would not work
as a missile is because the SR II rules say that a mage must activate the
lock with a touch. Thus, a mundane could place the lock, but not
activate it.

Dave

From:	mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard)
Subject:	Re: uh-ummmm....No....
Date:	Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:33:45 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 3 According to Nightblade:
>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, Jeffrey Jacob Mach wrote:
>>
>> > That way is just a waste of a spell lock (unless you go pry it
>> > out of the tortured bodies of your victims) and the karma to bond it.
>> To clear up a slight misconception (probably from fatigue) spell locks
>> are not bound in the same way as foci. They do however cost 1 point of
>> Karma to "activate" and thereby sustain a spell as long as they are
>> active. While active, they may be acted against like a force 1 focus.
>> Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the spell lock must remain on the
>> wearer's person, so you can't get away with a sustained damaging
>> manipulation firing at somebody, lock it, then chuck the lock at them and
>> run like it was the Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch.
>
>OK OK ... the "magic missile" system doesn't work as easily as I made it
>sound. But no one has addressed the point of a SPELL LOCKED ARROW with a
>sustained spell like CONTROL THOUGHTS on it. Once the spell is bound on
>it, anyone can fire the arrow. The lock NEED NOT remain in the possession
>of the mage to activate it. Once a target touches the lock, the spell goes
>into effect on them. (this happened in an SR textbook adventure, I've
>forgotten which.) Now, the lock is embedded in the target who is thought
>controlled by the mage, the target then opens fire on his buddies around
>him.

This goes against the rules, and if it appeared in some FASA adventure that
adventure was in error (was it written by Tom Dowd by any chance? =) The
rules for Spell Locks are given unambiguously in the SRII. To quote the
relevant passage:

"Spell locks, once bonded to a particular spell, need not be activated
immediately. A magician can create the lock and then give it to another
magician of the same tradition (shamanic or hermetic) for placement and
activation. Anyone can, theoretically, place the spell lock, but only another
magician of the proper tradition can activate it. Activation occurs by touch
and the expenditure of a Simple Action. The lock is dormant until activated,
though anyone who glances at it with astral perception will recognize it for
what it is. A spell lock must be placed in contact with its target in order to
operate. It can be worn, hung, nailed to, or stuck in a pocket, as long as it
is in contact with its intended target." [SRII, p. 138]

So a _magician_ must be _touching_ the spell lock at the time of activation,
which must also be touching its target for the duration of operation. This
clearly precludes a magician "activating" an arrow/spell-lock and then firing
it at a target.

It _is_ possible to create "magic arrows" with Anchoring (described in the
Grimoire) but the logistical difficulties of getting the Activation Link
right make such an enterprise inconvenient...

>AGREED! It doesn't matter if the mage grounds a physical area effect spell
>through the lock, IT IS EASIER TO just cast the spell at them. However, in
>a situation where a mundane, armed with a bow, is down and the foes
>are closing in, one enchanted missile could be fired at a foe. The foe
>goes nuts on his buddies, then an astrally active mage (who normally
>wouldn't be able to help out the cornered individual against his mundane
>opponents) would be able to ground out an instantaneous damaging
>manipulation against the whole group of foes.

Well, an Anchored projectile weapon might hack this scenario, but it won't
happen with a Spell Lock.

>ADMITTEDLY! This isn't immediately useful in each and every circumstance.
>But my point was to conceive a way of enchanting missiles. To my knowledge
>of the rules, that is done. It is expensive -- monetarily and karmically
>-- but it might save someone's hide sometime.

Anchoring is the way denoted in the Grimoire. Any adventure that uses a
Spell Lock in this manner should be considered to be in error.

>AND! For the issue of the spell lock/arrow surviving the physical
>grounding, (SR II, p 138) if the spell wins (the attack on the spell lock
>or focus), the spell focus bonding is broken. This renders the focus
>useless, and the spell grounds into the physical material of the focus.
> This means that the focus/lock is not NECESSARILY destroyed, but the
>damaging manipulation will do something to it. And if the arrow is made
>of wood or a light-weight metal, it could VERY REALISTICALLY get trashed by
>the grounding process. Furthermore, the lock would lose its bonding
>cutting the bond to the mage. Of course, the CONTROL THOUGHTS sustained
>effect is lost, but that target will have to worry about the grounding
>spell and the arrow exploding inside of him/her still. :)

Anchoring also allows attack from Astral Space into the material link, as
per the rules on p. 50 of the Grimoire II.

>> P.P.S. So to answer a question: No Dave, unless your foes are STUPID
>> and have both money and Good Karma to _burn_, you don't have to worry
>> about anybody using anything like a magic missile against you. You just
>> have the usual fireballs, lightning bolts, explosive heavy pistol rounds,
>> grenades, etc. to worry about ^_^.

>Ignoring the tone that "PPS", most corps would have both money and karma
>to burn for an advantage. HOWEVER, much more important is the fact that
>I was being facetiously panic-striken by the possibility of a magic missile.
>I recognize that it is hard to recognize such sarcasm in an email message.
>But some degree of decorum should be exercise when replying to such a line.

I would presume that that is what the ^_^ was for in Jeff's message. I think
everyone needs to take the chill pill here. =)

>To be real, I'm more than satisfied with the firepower at corporate disposal;
>however, that feeling does not stop me from investigating the theoretical
>possibilities of magical applications.

Scientific curiosity is a good thing. =)

>And that's precisely what this discussion is - academic. If at some point
>it should have some practical use to someone great. If not, fine, too.
>To be real, I'm designing a new character and considered the possibility
>until I saw the costs involved. But it STILL provided an interesting
>theoretical discussion.

>AND just to close things out, the reason a spell lock would not work
>as a missile is because the SR II rules say that a mage must activate the
>lock with a touch. Thus, a mundane could place the lock, but not
>activate it.

Exactly. =) Ware the mage with the Karma (and willing to soak the Drain) to
start Anchoring spells to things.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict

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