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Message no. 1
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard)
Subject: wait a second
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:29:18 -0800 (PST)
Brian, we've got to clarify some stuff here. Amazonia is not going to be
finished with La Paz that quickly. In fact, the diplomatic repercussions of
the incident are _nowhere_ near over. To be explicit, the base isn't
coming back quite that easily. I'm in the process of writing up a follow-up
to yesterday's Novacek report in which the remaining Maxim personell will have
been returned to neutral territory (read: deported) but Maxim is _by_no_means_
going to resume operations that easily.

What we need to figure out, actually, is whether or not Amazonia will try and/or
succeed in freezing all Maxim assets in the region. At the moment, Amazonian
troops have been dispatched to all other Maxim installations, and are prepared
to move in en masse. What we have here is little less than an act of war to
one of the most environmentally-conscious countries in the world.

There are several different eventual outcomes I might see, including
- eviction of all Maxim R&D and retension of only local warehouses
- eviction of Maxim, completely
- eviction of Maxim with all assets in country taken over by the government

and other scenarios. But things aren't simply going to die.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 2
From: Samuel Fortiner <fortsa@****.wwc.edu>
Subject: Re: wait a second
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:51:23 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:

> Brian, we've got to clarify some stuff here. Amazonia is not going to be
> finished with La Paz that quickly. In fact, the diplomatic repercussions of
> the incident are _nowhere_ near over. To be explicit, the base isn't
> coming back quite that easily. I'm in the process of writing up a follow-up
> to yesterday's Novacek report in which the remaining Maxim personell will have
> been returned to neutral territory (read: deported) but Maxim is _by_no_means_
> going to resume operations that easily.
<stuff deleted>
Ummm, okay, who the hell is in charge of this plot line? I have always
been under the impression that Brian was! Anyone want to clarify this
for me?

Sam
Message no. 3
From: ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD <angliss@****.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: wait a second
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:55:05 -0700 (MST)
That would be me.

Brian
Message no. 4
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard)
Subject: Re: wait a second
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:11:26 -0800 (PST)
According to Samuel Fortiner:
> Ummm, okay, who the hell is in charge of this plot line? I have always
> been under the impression that Brian was! Anyone want to clarify this
> for me?

Brian is "in charge" of Maxim, and initiated the Maxim plot line. Through
work with Brian, I received the task of writing up the La Paz incident, working
with a couple other players and their characters.

Of course, the implications of the matter extend beyond just Maxim itself.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 5
From: ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD <angliss@****.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: wait a second
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:54:21 -0700 (MST)
Mark, I think you and I just locked horns. Again.

On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:

> Brian, we've got to clarify some stuff here. Amazonia is not going to be
> finished with La Paz that quickly. In fact, the diplomatic repercussions of
> the incident are _nowhere_ near over. To be explicit, the base isn't
> coming back quite that easily.

I'm reasonable on this, but Maxim IS putting a command team back in place
to be sure that Amazonia doesn't destroy the rest of the facility. After
all, it _is_ Maxim property.

Oh, and this is a statement. It will happen, and it will happen
tomorrow. Maxim won't try to kick out the Amazonians, but they will
officially put representatives there.

> I'm in the process of writing up a follow-up
> to yesterday's Novacek report in which the remaining Maxim personell will have
> been returned to neutral territory (read: deported) but Maxim is _by_no_means_
> going to resume operations that easily.

Amazonia would have had no reason to deport Maxim's employees since they
didn't know about Maxim's nukes. They would have had a reason to shut
down the operations, but not deport the employees, most of whom live in
LaPaz itself. Ie, Amazonia just kicked out thier own, taxpaying
citizens. And Amazonia does not control all of South America, so the
farthest they would have gone is Quito, Ecuador, or Santiago, Chile if
you believe Quito is still in Amazonia.

But I see you went ahead and did it anyway.... So much for my timing.

Actually, this became an issue when Mark and I were discussing this the
first time: does anyone know where the hell the borders of Amazonia
are? I looked through all my books and only found mention of the
northern border with Aztlan being in the middle of Columbia. I figure
all of Brazil, maybe much of Argintina, Uraguay, Paraguay, and the north
coast of South America. But I don't think Peru, Ecuador, Chile, and most
of the Andes. I would think some of those would be the renewal of the
Incas, personally, and that the coastal and mountains just don't seem to fit.

> What we need to figure out, actually, is whether or not Amazonia will try and/or
> succeed in freezing all Maxim assets in the region. At the moment, Amazonian
> troops have been dispatched to all other Maxim installations, and are prepared
> to move in en masse. What we have here is little less than an act of war to
> one of the most environmentally-conscious countries in the world.

Yeah, by a terrorist organization. :) Maxim did nothing wrong,
officially, except not inform Amazonia that they had plutonium on the
site, which, depending on how lax or tough thier corp extraterritoriality
laws are, could be a problem. The environmental problems didn't occur
until the nuke was destroyed, therefore it's not officially Maxim's fault.

Now, if you still want to say that Amazonia has put troops outside the
bases, that's fine with me. Here's the list of the ones I figure would
be affected: LaPaz(duh), Porto Alegre, Buenos Aires, Brasilia, Caracas,
Rio, San Luis. There are others, but I figure that they are outside
Amazonia. And Amazonia, even if Quito is in Amazonia, would not put
troops outside that. It's the Continental HQ and Maxim would not take
well to having troops stationed around it.

Oh, by they way. Amazonia is not going to move against Maxim, because I
will not allow Maxim's presence in South America to be destroyed. For
similar reasons, I have rejected all the eviction ideas you've proposed
as too extreme. Sorry, Mark.

> There are several different eventual outcomes I might see, including
> - eviction of all Maxim R&D and retension of only local warehouses
> - eviction of Maxim, completely
> - eviction of Maxim with all assets in country taken over by the government

Maxim has very little R&D in South America, except a couple of small,
temporary installations that Maxim pays the local nation well to use
thier rainforest. It's mostly non-military production and raw materials
plus sattelite communications, etc.

I'm not going to let Maxim be kicked out. Period. Which means no
government seizure of all assets either.

I can handle Maxim being restricted to certain buisnesses in Amazonia
because they're already restricted. I can also handle kicking out all
R&D, since that would actually hurt Maxim by denying them access to
biological diversity in the Amazon Basin. And I can handle Maxim being
forced to sell the LaPaz facility to Amazonia. But that's about it.

Brian
Message no. 6
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard)
Subject: Re: wait a second
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:08:16 -0800 (PST)
According to ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD:
>
> I'm reasonable on this, but Maxim IS putting a command team back in place
> to be sure that Amazonia doesn't destroy the rest of the facility. After
> all, it _is_ Maxim property.
>
> Oh, and this is a statement. It will happen, and it will happen
> tomorrow. Maxim won't try to kick out the Amazonians, but they will
> officially put representatives there.

What exactly are they planning to do? Are they planning to attempt to land
in the Maxim compound with aircraft?

> Amazonia would have had no reason to deport Maxim's employees since they
> didn't know about Maxim's nukes. They would have had a reason to shut
> down the operations, but not deport the employees, most of whom live in
> LaPaz itself. Ie, Amazonia just kicked out thier own, taxpaying
> citizens.

If you read the previous posts, when the Amazonian military scrambled to
the scene of the airstrike, they discovered radioactive stuff leaking into
the environment. This got their immediate attention, and a certain amount
of forensics revealed the plutonium. While they have no way to _prove_ that
they were part of nuclear warheads, they have at the very least a private
corporation storing nuclear material on their soil, "endangering" its
citizens etc. This is practically an act of war.

> But I see you went ahead and did it anyway.... So much for my timing.
> Actually, this became an issue when Mark and I were discussing this the
> first time: does anyone know where the hell the borders of Amazonia
> are? I looked through all my books and only found mention of the
> northern border with Aztlan being in the middle of Columbia. I figure
> all of Brazil, maybe much of Argintina, Uraguay, Paraguay, and the north
> coast of South America. But I don't think Peru, Ecuador, Chile, and most
> of the Andes. I would think some of those would be the renewal of the
> Incas, personally, and that the coastal and mountains just don't seem to fit.

This is true. All of this is proceeding too fast without knowing exactly where
the borders are, which I will claim equal responsibility for.

> Yeah, by a terrorist organization. :) Maxim did nothing wrong,
> officially, except not inform Amazonia that they had plutonium on the
> site, which, depending on how lax or tough thier corp extraterritoriality
> laws are, could be a problem. The environmental problems didn't occur
> until the nuke was destroyed, therefore it's not officially Maxim's fault.

Conversely, the politicians can easily start claiming that such nuclear
material is obviously useful only for nuclear weapons. =( From a strictly
rational point of view, Maxim's crime may be relatively small, but the
Amazonian government, just like governments in general (and like certain
corporate CEO's I know) are not necessarily rational.

> Now, if you still want to say that Amazonia has put troops outside the
> bases, that's fine with me. Here's the list of the ones I figure would
> be affected: LaPaz(duh), Porto Alegre, Buenos Aires, Brasilia, Caracas,
> Rio, San Luis. There are others, but I figure that they are outside
> Amazonia. And Amazonia, even if Quito is in Amazonia, would not put
> troops outside that. It's the Continental HQ and Maxim would not take
> well to having troops stationed around it.
>
> Oh, by they way. Amazonia is not going to move against Maxim, because I
> will not allow Maxim's presence in South America to be destroyed. For
> similar reasons, I have rejected all the eviction ideas you've proposed
> as too extreme. Sorry, Mark.

The one I most advocated was the removing of the R&D stuff. I will freely
admit that most were too extreme, and I only posited them to suggest some
of the more extreme positions the politicians might bluster about in the
political firestorm ongoing.

> I'm not going to let Maxim be kicked out. Period. Which means no
> government seizure of all assets either.

Nor, in general, would Amazonia actually try this short of an open act of
war provable to Maxim.

> I can handle Maxim being restricted to certain buisnesses in Amazonia
> because they're already restricted. I can also handle kicking out all
> R&D, since that would actually hurt Maxim by denying them access to
> biological diversity in the Amazon Basin. And I can handle Maxim being
> forced to sell the LaPaz facility to Amazonia. But that's about it.

Ok, shall we agree to that then, and hopefully close the chapter on this whole
mess? Perhaps you can furnish a wording for the "treaty" here on plotd and
we can ratify and "implement" it. I want to avoid stepping on toes as much
as possible, but I also want to avoid holes in world characterization. I
think we can do it.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 7
From: ANGLISS BRIAN EDWARD <angliss@****.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: wait a second
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:59:47 -0700 (MST)
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Mark L. Neidengard wrote:

> What exactly are they planning to do? Are they planning to attempt to land
> in the Maxim compound with aircraft?

No, that site can only handle choppers, and Maxim has to fly the people
into the public airport or come across the lake via boat. Either way,
Maxim's peopl will be arriving via ground transportation and
the Amazonian officials will have been informed prior to thier arrival.
I'm sure that both sides will do everything they can to annoy the other
without any serious breaches occuring, and the team will make it clear
that they're not going to interfere with the Amazonians too much, just
make sure that Maxim has some representatives there to make sure that
nothing disappears. Maxim has some important stuff on that site that
would be lots in lost revenue if it just vanished. The team will be
about 15 people.

> If you read the previous posts, when the Amazonian military scrambled to
> the scene of the airstrike, they discovered radioactive stuff leaking into
> the environment. This got their immediate attention, and a certain amount
> of forensics revealed the plutonium. While they have no way to _prove_ that
> they were part of nuclear warheads, they have at the very least a private
> corporation storing nuclear material on their soil, "endangering" its
> citizens etc. This is practically an act of war.

I guess my point rests on an unknown variable in regards to how Amazonia
views megacorps and how strong thier extraterritoriality laws are, and
this is a variable that is totally unknown and, for the time being,
unknowable.

I can see why you feel it's an act of war, though. I don't agree with
the deportation, but it's done so I'll deal with it. I probably would
have put the people into forced housing units somewhere, at least the
ones with LaPaz residencies, but YMMV.

And it definately got Maxim's attention, which could be a very real
reason to do it. Politically, it makes Amazonia's position very clear,
so Maxim knows exactly, and bluntly, where they stand.

I'm not sure if I'm convincing myself or rationalizing or what, but there
are definately reasonable reasons for why Amazonia would have done what
they did and now I'm cooled down, I'm beginning to think again. One of
these days I'll actually remember to stop, cool down, and then respond....

> This is true. All of this is proceeding too fast without knowing exactly where
> the borders are, which I will claim equal responsibility for.

For this plot, the borders aren't overly important since Mark and I
decided that, even if they didn't include LaPaz according to FASA, since
neither of us could figure out exactly, LaPaz was in Amazonia for this
plot. But I'd still be interested in hearing from someone if you know
what they official borders are supposed to be.

> Conversely, the politicians can easily start claiming that such nuclear
> material is obviously useful only for nuclear weapons. =( From a strictly
> rational point of view, Maxim's crime may be relatively small, but the
> Amazonian government, just like governments in general (and like certain
> corporate CEO's I know) are not necessarily rational.

Touche'.

> The one I most advocated was the removing of the R&D stuff. I will freely
> admit that most were too extreme, and I only posited them to suggest some
> of the more extreme positions the politicians might bluster about in the
> political firestorm ongoing.

Actually, I'm sure that they would go through all those plus a slew of
more and less extreme versions. I read that you were positing them as
possible ideas for what would happen to Maxim, and so I probably
overreacted.

> Nor, in general, would Amazonia actually try this short of an open act of
> war provable to Maxim.

Ie proof that there was a real weapon there, which will not be forthcoming.

> Ok, shall we agree to that then, and hopefully close the chapter on this whole
> mess? Perhaps you can furnish a wording for the "treaty" here on plotd and
> we can ratify and "implement" it. I want to avoid stepping on toes as much
> as possible, but I also want to avoid holes in world characterization. I
> think we can do it.

I'll see what I can do, but not tonight. I'll get to it in the morning.

Brian

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!