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Message no. 1
From: jaimie.nicholson@********.otago.ac.nz (Jaimie Nicholson)
Subject: Watchers, watchers, and more damned watchers. Could there _be_ anything more
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:40:27 -0300
Evan hughes said:

> *grin*... I thought manifestation
>meant being able to be seen physically...

*grin back* Well, there are two schools of thought on that one. It makes
sense that light has to bounce off of something for it to be seen, so they
are affecting light phyiscally, but is that enough? As shown by mirages and
heat hazes, you don't have to have much mass to affect light. In terms of
physical presence, maybe manifested watchers could be compared to a puff of
warm air.

Speaking of manifested watchers, could you ground an area-affect spell
through them, as a way of zapping people from astral space? And if not
(because its so damn dangerous), whats a good excuse for stopping
characters (and NPC hit-mages) from doing it? I know the Awakenings
sourcebook mentions use of a low force fire elemental for a similar
technique, and this could be an absolute killer of parties without a mage
who can go astral and defend against this sort of drek.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD...
JAIMIE NICHOLSON
Message no. 2
From: Evan Hughes <ehughes@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Watchers, watchers, and more damned watchers. Could there _be_ anything more
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 22:43:01 EDT
Jaimie Nicholson writes:
> *grin back* Well, there are two schools of thought on that one. It makes
> sense that light has to bounce off of something for it to be seen, so they
> are affecting light phyiscally, but is that enough? As shown by mirages and
> heat hazes, you don't have to have much mass to affect light. In terms of
> physical presence, maybe manifested watchers could be compared to a puff of
> warm air.

Mirages are caused by differing air densities and the refraction
(please, oh please, let that be the correct term) of light.


> Speaking of manifested watchers, could you ground an area-affect spell
[...]
> technique, and this could be an absolute killer of parties without a mage
> who can go astral and defend against this sort of drek.

That would be one hell of an attack. It sounds like a good idea.


Evan Hughes | Webmaster
Honours Computer Science | Carleton Computer Science Society
http://chat.carleton.ca/~ehughes | http://omega.scs.carleton.ca/~ccss
.. code code code eat code code code code code sleep code code code code ..
Message no. 3
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard)
Subject: Re: Watchers, watchers, and more damned watchers. Could there _be_ anything more
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 19:42:40 -0700 (PDT)
According to Jaimie Nicholson:
>
>*grin back* Well, there are two schools of thought on that one. It makes
>sense that light has to bounce off of something for it to be seen, so they
>are affecting light phyiscally, but is that enough? As shown by mirages and
>heat hazes, you don't have to have much mass to affect light. In terms of
>physical presence, maybe manifested watchers could be compared to a puff of
>warm air.

On the other hand, the "Astral-echo" effect is a well-established effect
with documented mechanics (this is where you get a Perception test to see if
you notice a spell or spirit that's hanging around astrally). Given that
FASA invested that rotten, unorthogonal "be seen and heard w/out being
Manifest" thingie, it's probably not too much of a stretch to say that it's
just a modification of Astral-echo.

>Speaking of manifested watchers, could you ground an area-affect spell
>through them, as a way of zapping people from astral space? And if not
>(because its so damn dangerous), whats a good excuse for stopping
>characters (and NPC hit-mages) from doing it? I know the Awakenings
>sourcebook mentions use of a low force fire elemental for a similar
>technique, and this could be an absolute killer of parties without a mage
>who can go astral and defend against this sort of drek.

I don't think Watchers should manifest, and, as a consequence, that they
should not count for grounding spells through.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 4
From: Michael Chartrand <jinx@*******.ca>
Subject: Re: Watchers, watchers, and more damned watchers. Could there _be_ anything more
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 23:00:32 -0400
Mark L. Neidengard wrote:

>
> I don't think Watchers should manifest, and, as a consequence, that they
> should not count for grounding spells through.
I'm in on this one. They are a link to the conjurer BUT not such an
absolute that they can be ground through. This should be limited to an
astral link for ritual magic or traking but nothing else (uless the FASA
gods state otherwise)

Michael.
Message no. 5
From: jaimie.nicholson@********.otago.ac.nz (Jaimie Nicholson)
Subject: Re: Watchers, watchers, and more damned watchers. Could there _be_ anything more
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:17:59 -0300
Evan said:

> Mirages are caused by differing air densities and the refraction
>(please, oh please, let that be the correct term) of light.

Yeah, sounds right, and that's what i mean by not much mass (air). If
shifting densities can do it, why does a manifested spirit have to be huge
and physically powerful to make itself visible?

He continued:

>> Speaking of manifested watchers, could you ground an area-affect spell...

> That would be one hell of an attack. It sounds like a good idea.

Whereas I tend to think that it sucks the big one. Still it would be good
to mess with those stupid FAB-UV-netgun-carrying-"I've got an astral net,
and you can't get me, nyah nyah nyah"-security-guards ("net this, you donut
snarfing fraggers").

Mark said:

>On the other hand, the "Astral-echo" effect is a well-established effect
>with documented mechanics (this is where you get a Perception test to see if
>you notice a spell or spirit that's hanging around astrally)... it's
>probably >not too much of a stretch to say that it's just a modification
>of Astral-echo.

That's what I meant by "there are two schools of thought on that one". And
isn't that perception test made when the spirit manifests, and is just
sitting nearby? Since all else has failed, I guess I'll have to check the
rulebook when I get home.

>I don't think Watchers should manifest, and, as a consequence, that they
>should not count for grounding spells through.

Yeah, fair enough, but any other force 1 spirit would still do.

Winter said:

>"Posters" in the lit. have stated that this
>will piss off spirits and even elementals, but it is not clear what
>the repercussions of this abuse may be.

Good point, but the posters seem to be talking out their arses. If the
spirit can be forced into slavery, have it's essence burnt to reduce drain
(allies only), have its force siphoned to maintain spells (elementals
only), and be bound to a site permanently (elementals only, I think), the
one that is merely grounded through should consider itself lucky.

Lastly, Mike Loll said:

>Watcher debate --------> shadowrn

(Here's a nice loophole) I may soon use a watcher or nature spirit in this
way on a shadowtk post and traffic amounts prevent me from being on
shadowrn. Does anyone have any input for me? Send it privately if you care
enough not to offend Mr Loll.

PLAYTHING OF A CRUEL GOD...
JAIMIE NICHOLSON
Message no. 6
From: Brian Rogers <rogers@****.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Watchers, watchers, and more damned watchers. Could there _be_ anything more
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 11:47:00 -0500
> Mark L. Neidengard wrote:
>
> >
> > I don't think Watchers should manifest, and, as a consequence, that they
> > should not count for grounding spells through.
> I'm in on this one. They are a link to the conjurer BUT not such an
> absolute that they can be ground through. This should be limited to an
> astral link for ritual magic or traking but nothing else (uless the FASA
> gods state otherwise)

I accidentally nuked the mail message that said something more about
this, if I find it again, Ill respond to it but -- Watcher CAN manifest
to give messages to others. AND they can allow you to ground spells out
through them. This is one of the reasons I love having them because the7
work like grenades. Run one down the hall, ground out on it with a big area of
effect spell, and wander down, knowing it clear.

Further Reading

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