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Message no. 1
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: re: Yer killin' me
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:02:45 -0600
To the people talking about rascism in the 2050's, I'd like to you all to
open your manuals, and read "And So It Came to Pass" I'd just like to point
out that when it speaks of rascism it says something like "Who cares about
the guy with the tan, when that _thing_ over there has hands the size of
your head." In SR, there is very little rascism based off of skin color.
It still exsists, but then so do sexist attitudes. The only people they
mention as having color biases (that I can think off) are the Yakuza, who
always have, and always will, and Japanese corporations. The mafia does
somewhat, but it's gotten so mixed up between the Irish and Sicilian mafias,
that they're pretty color uncaring as well. Oh, almost forgot, one of the
most rascist countrys/areas/groups is NAN, who has this thing against
caucasians. And the Yaks will accept a non-japanese if they show such honor
that it places them above the level of gaijin.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 2
From: justinf@****.caltech.edu (Justin Fang)
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:48:46 -0800 (PST)
Mike Broadwater says:
> To the people talking about rascism in the 2050's, I'd like to you all to
> open your manuals, and read "And So It Came to Pass" I'd just like to
point
> out that when it speaks of rascism it says something like "Who cares about
> the guy with the tan, when that _thing_ over there has hands the size of
> your head." In SR, there is very little rascism based off of skin color.
> It still exsists, but then so do sexist attitudes.

On the other hand, old attitudes can take a long time to die. Just because
you hate (metahuman group) more than you hate (human group) doesn't mean you
won't still hate (human group). "Me against my brother, me and my brother
against our cousins, me, my brother, and our cousins against the world."
And, of course, you don't need physical differences to drive prejudice;
witness the former Yugoslavia.

Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 3
From: plblack@********.com (Patrick L. Black)
Subject: re: Yer killin' me
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:48:18 -0700
[snip about basic rasicsm in SR]
>that they're pretty color uncaring as well. Oh, almost forgot, one of the
>most rascist countrys/areas/groups is NAN, who has this thing against
>caucasians.

Whew...I was getting worried about one of the plot elements I am developing. :p

Patrick L. Black
"Never Wake A Sleeping Mugatu"
Message no. 4
From: Evan Hughes <ehughes@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 18:09:57 EST
Justin Fang writes:
> On the other hand, old attitudes can take a long time to die. Just because
> you hate (metahuman group) more than you hate (human group) doesn't mean you
> won't still hate (human group). "Me against my brother, me and my brother
> against our cousins, me, my brother, and our cousins against the world."
> And, of course, you don't need physical differences to drive prejudice;
> witness the former Yugoslavia.

Hah! That one is on ethnic lines. Big time.

Although I think anti-meta hatred could grow a lot more easily. Orcs
and Trolls look WAY too different. Not to mention, it's easier to hate the
"abominations" (something that LOOKs human when it's a kid, but reveals
it's "true form" on adult-hood). Again, meta-humans make up such a small
segment of the world population, it's easy to hate someone/thing that you
never see...


Evan Hughes | Webmaster
Honours Computer Science | Carleton Computer Science Society
http://chat.carleton.ca/~ehughes | http://omega.scs.carleton.ca/~ccss
Message no. 5
From: Umfleet <gumfleet@***.edu>
Subject: re: Yer killin' me
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:34:50 -0500 (EST)
Mike your two points ahead now. Skin coloris a moot point in the SLand
era where trolls and orks live. Why be scared of his skin color when a
white troll or ork can rip your bloomin head off.
Gregg
Message no. 6
From: justinf@****.caltech.edu (Justin Fang)
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:10:48 -0800 (PST)
Evan Hughes writes:
> > And, of course, you don't need physical differences to drive prejudice;
> > witness the former Yugoslavia.

> Hah! That one is on ethnic lines. Big time.

Yugoslavia is proof that the Evil Dictator does occasionally do something
useful. Of course, if he wasn't an Evil Dictator then maybe things wouldn't
have fallen apart after his death. But this is off topic.

> Although I think anti-meta hatred could grow a lot more easily. Orcs
> and Trolls look WAY too different. Not to mention, it's easier to hate the
> "abominations" (something that LOOKs human when it's a kid, but reveals
> it's "true form" on adult-hood). Again, meta-humans make up such a small
> segment of the world population, it's easy to hate someone/thing that you
> never see...

Yes. Doesn't mean you won't stop hating group X who you see every day,
though.

Justin Fang (justinf@****.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
Message no. 7
From: mneideng@****.caltech.edu (Mark L. Neidengard)
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 20:20:45 -0800 (PST)
According to Umfleet:
>
> Mike your two points ahead now. Skin coloris a moot point in the SLand
> era where trolls and orks live. Why be scared of his skin color when a
> white troll or ork can rip your bloomin head off.

Not entirely moot, I'd say. There was a time once when the paragons of
the civilized world did battle with hulking, blue-skinned, devil-possessed
barbarians in the far Northwest of the known world. Folks who did not fall
when pierced with a sword, and who charged, screaming, into the ranks of the
"civilized" soldiers.

And even in such times as that, the Romans still discriminated against the
Greeks, one of their ethnically closest peers...
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark
Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Message no. 8
From: Evan Hughes <ehughes@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 0:03:11 EST
Justin Fang writes:
> Yes. Doesn't mean you won't stop hating group X who you see every day,
> though.

True. Everyone (almost) loves to hate. Everyone... =(


Evan Hughes | Webmaster
Honours Computer Science | Carleton Computer Science Society
http://chat.carleton.ca/~ehughes | http://omega.scs.carleton.ca/~ccss
Message no. 9
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:11:56 -0600
>Not entirely moot, I'd say. There was a time once when the paragons of
>the civilized world did battle with hulking, blue-skinned, devil-possessed
>barbarians in the far Northwest of the known world. Folks who did not fall
>when pierced with a sword, and who charged, screaming, into the ranks of the
>"civilized" soldiers.
>
>And even in such times as that, the Romans still discriminated against the
>Greeks, one of their ethnically closest peers...

Can we just agree that racism is stupid? I'd really prefer to not see it on
here, because I for one see enough of it in rl (not directed at me, but I do
see it) that I would really prefer to imagine that most runners are
proffesional enough to not be racist, and if they are, to not post their
hate on a board with people who may reacted in violent ways to their
sentiments. I don't mean that all plots involving racism should be killed,
it's a great plot device, but perhaps and discussion of hatred should be
their for a reason.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 10
From: Evan Hughes <ehughes@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 11:08:24 EST
Mike Broadwater writes:
> Can we just agree that racism is stupid? I'd really prefer to not see it on
> here, because I for one see enough of it in rl (not directed at me, but I do
> see it)

If anyone has any personal complaints, then yes, I think it would be a
VERY good idea to drop the plots -- but until then they should be kept.

> sentiments. I don't mean that all plots involving racism should be killed,
> it's a great plot device, but perhaps and discussion of hatred should be
> their for a reason.

Racims is a _wicked_ plot device, and brings a really high level of
realism to a game (pity that it makes it more realistic, eh?). Although I
agree that there should be no racists actually on the board... (Thats why
I was surprised that Chug/Minnow were actually flamed for their
comments... =)



Evan Hughes | Webmaster
Honours Computer Science | Carleton Computer Science Society
http://chat.carleton.ca/~ehughes | http://omega.scs.carleton.ca/~ccss
Message no. 11
From: Umfleet <gumfleet@***.edu>
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:22:33 -0500 (EST)
Evan,
I have to agree I see racism at work, school, and within my own family.
I'd really rather not see it on here, but if kept under control (i.e. no
rl racial slurrs like _igger) then I'll keep quiet
Gregg
Message no. 12
From: winter@******.med.harvard.edu
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:39:02 -0500
Nobody actually thinks that _they_ are a bigot, some are just
sensitive about wrongs perpetrated by THEM. I must admit
that I feel uncomfortable in some situations, but does that
make me a racist bastard? I agree that a racially oriented
plot-line may cause dificulty, and do not feel that it would
be very welcome, but I feel that it should not be censored.

--winter
Message no. 13
From: Evan Hughes <ehughes@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 15:09:32 EST
Umfleet writes:
> I have to agree I see racism at work, school, and within my own family.
> I'd really rather not see it on here, but if kept under control (i.e. no
> rl racial slurrs like _igger) then I'll keep quiet

Good 'nuff. I wasn't actually expecting to be put in my place like
that, but definitely. Nothing RL -- It shall be kept ONLY between the
meta-races... I'll also try to keep that to a minimum.


Sorry.


Evan Hughes | Webmaster
Honours Computer Science | Carleton Computer Science Society
http://chat.carleton.ca/~ehughes | http://omega.scs.carleton.ca/~ccss
Message no. 14
From: Evan Hughes <ehughes@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 15:12:25 EST
winter@******.med.harvard.edu writes:
> Nobody actually thinks that _they_ are a bigot, some are just
[snip]
> be very welcome, but I feel that it should not be censored.

Before we go overboard: Can we keep any racist/biased stuff between the
meta-races? That way we can safely avoid _directly_ offending people
(although I agree completely with the censorship thing, I see no reason to
be offensive).


Evan Hughes | Webmaster
Honours Computer Science | Carleton Computer Science Society
http://chat.carleton.ca/~ehughes | http://omega.scs.carleton.ca/~ccss
Message no. 15
From: plblack@********.com (Patrick L. Black)
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:48:47 -0700
>winter@******.med.harvard.edu writes:
>> Nobody actually thinks that _they_ are a bigot, some are just
>[snip]
>> be very welcome, but I feel that it should not be censored.
>
> Before we go overboard: Can we keep any racist/biased stuff between the
>meta-races? That way we can safely avoid _directly_ offending people
>(although I agree completely with the censorship thing, I see no reason to
>be offensive).
>
>
>Evan Hughes

OK. Before I get any further with my plot, I think I had better say a
little about the background of the Chief Instigator, as it were. Armand
Lattizori is a man of Italian descent whose family lived in what is now the
NAN. When the treaty of Denver was signed, his family was forced to leave,
and moved to Seattle. They trucked what they could of their belongings to
Seattle. While travelling they were attacked by a rogue band of Native
Warriors, and Armand's brother was killed. This is the root of his dislike
of Native People. He dislikes the meta-types of humanity mainly because
they have seemed to ally themselves with the NAN, in some cases.

Does anyone have any problems with this basis for my plot? I could probably
eliminate any further mention of Natives, and limit his bias simply to
Metahumans, but I would rather not.


Patrick L. Black
"Never Wake A Sleeping Mugatu"
Message no. 16
From: Umfleet <gumfleet@***.edu>
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:59:51 -0500 (EST)
No probs here, sounds alright to me so keep going with it
Gregg
Message no. 17
From: Gloria <l.m.evans@**********.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Yer killin' me
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:16:09 GMT
> Armand
> Lattizori is a man of Italian descent whose family lived in what is now the
> NAN.

This plot sounds fine to me. It's related to established attitudes (NAN 'racism'), and
sounds very interesting. I say go with it.

Gloria Roads
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