| From: | Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Re: Info wanted... |
| Date: | Sat, 29 Mar 1997 15:44:05 +0000 |
Goldberg <michael.goldberg@*******.COM> writes
> Hey... you misedited your post.
Oopsy, sorry Mike. I was having so much fun nattering away at your
comments... Should have paid better attention, again - sorry. :)
(In this post, some remarks are made and characters used as an example,
this is not intended as a challenge to those characters or the players,
merely an example to highlight an observation)... <g>
> Thought I would point it out.... In particular, if the posts to
> Death and Midnight were to be separate, you failed to end the post to
> Death.
They were supposed to be seperated, for simplicities sake, though they
were answered together.
> Also, I'm going to have to print out your note to be able to respond
> to it, which means that I won't get to it until Monday (at the
> earliest).
That's ok, no rush... I've not got anywhere important to be, so anytime.
:)
> It seems to me, that it is more likely that I misinterpreted your
> post. What it said to me, is that you are labeling Abraham and others
> who may not have normal views that society (SIN-based) fear as Morally
> Challenged.
No, the label was intended as a "joke", The Centre for the Morally
Challenged is a rip off from Robocop, it's a polite name for a criminal
institution. Marathon was not intentionally labelling anyone as morally
challenged, the comment was made more in reflection of Abraham's
apparent support of the Thunda episode, something I feel Marathon would
feel strongly about. My other characters just treat the episode as
another part of life, and don't care too much, life goes on so to speak.
:) Marathon, however, is a sometimes belligerent, and always
opinionated sob.
>Therefore, I had both Death and Midnight (in their own
> ways) feel that it was implied to a much larger audience than just
> Abraham.
S'okay, no complaints from me :) The comments were interesting, and I
felt they deserved an answer, if the whole conversation blows into a
moralistic debate, fair enough, if it fades into obscurity with both
parties realising their mistakes, well, I guess that's OK too. It's
possible that if the debate gets deeper, a couple of other characters
may get involved in it, both from the point of amoral survivability,
more in keeping with what appear to be deaths views, and one from the
high moral, good guy standpoint.
>You have to be really careful when you make those
> statements.
Oh. Why? If I'm too careful with my characters comments, they won't
live up to their profile, and little debates like this won't start up :)
I quite enjoyed arguing the good tir/bad tir thing with Paul when
Urbanus and Easy started on each other, and would indulge a little more
in this sort of debating if there were other things around that I feel
my characters would respond too. I appreciate that Shadowtk, is for
playing out plots designed privately and on PlotD, but as it is a
reflection of a Shadowland(ish) node, then I also feel that the
deckers/characters would get more involved in debating with each other,
in much the same way that mailing lists/newsgroups invite debate. After
all, everybody is an individual, with their own thoughts, ideas and
beliefs. In the time of Shadowrun, the people who inhabit the Shadows
may be more strongly opinionated about things they believe strongly
about, in much the same way that a bunch of "good ol' boys" in a bar
will be opinionated about everything. Frankly, with the number and
types of people that post here, I'm surprised this sort of debate
doesn't erupt more often. <g>
>Most countries' citizens consider all Shadowrunners to be
> nutcases. After all, why would anyone want to have to live their
> whole life being in true, easy to see, danger of being snuffed out.
> Better to live in a shell and be decently safe.
Agreed, wholeheartedly. :) I can't see the mob mind changing that much
from now to then, people are still going to work in crap jobs for
companies who don't care, just because it's a job and it offers some
security. It allows them to exist as "respectable" people, rather than
on welfare. I still don't see, even in today's economic times, that
people on welfare have any more respect or sympathy than they did in
previous years. Many people still consider them scroungers of the
state. Sad, but there you go. That situation may increase to deeper
contempt in the future, who knows.
As for Shadowrunners, Shadowrun itself is contradictory on this point,
in the blurb covering the game FASA state that the Shadowrunners are the
last knights of humanity, the last hope against the corruption of the
mega corporations, yet in the same breath, state that it is the
Shadowrunners who do the dirty work for the corps, "when the corps want
a job done, and don't want to get their hands dirty...they turn to the
Shadowrunners." In the character development area, with their rather
strange series 20 questions, there's the contradictory "What's the
Character's moral code: Does he kill? Why? When did he decide he could?
etc. A shadowrunner kills, pure and simple, it's the difference
between making a profit, and pushing up daisies. When the security
teams, guarding the isntallation a runner is cracking open fire, he
doesn't stop and negotiate... I suspect the moral code was introduced
by FASA, with the undertone of Shadowrunners as good guys, to appeal to
the lighter side of humanity. People find a game that concentrates on
the dark side of humanity, with no respite from the grime and filth of
life as a hired assassin/thief/hacker then there is a chance that there
will be some complaint about that concept.
My own personal outlook on it is that the runners are there to do what
they do best, they are an exception to the norm, skilled
warriors/deckers who don't follow the normal laws and rules of society,
and don't very much care for the ways of normal life. Maybe they are
all crazy, maybe not. That's not a debate I'd want to get into, but all
Shadowrunners are mercenary, they work for the highest bidder and do
whatever the corps ask. Some may refuse certain jobs, my players won't
do wet work, they had one job based around it, and decided it was not
for them, there was no "honour" in merely killing a target, but a paid
extraction/recovery/datasteal where the sec guards were well, if not
equally trained, fired back, it made it seem more fair to them, even
though they were still killing "family" men/women.
> *gets on weak soapbox*
(grin)
> There is a trend on shadowtk that I particularly dislike. Sentinel,
> the Wanderer, Legion, and Nightmare (among others) were created
> specifically because they don't fit the trend I am seeing. I don't
> know why it is, but there seem to be a LOT of heroes on shadowtk that
> tackle any noble cause that comes their way. Even the assassins (for
> instance the whole horse episode). Most of the characters are
> enlightened about the whole race issue and treat just as if it was a
> skin color or sex preference matter (in other words, that it just
> doesn't matter what their race is).
Again, I have no argument with you here. I actually agree. The primary
reflection of this list seems to cover what I would lable as Crusaders
(hence Marathons comments) There are a unfounded number of good guys
here. Thunda was created by a friend of mine, because he was bored
reading the "I'm a supreme good guy, and can achieve anything I want"
style posts. Unfortunately, as I'm sure many will agree, Thunda was
seriously over the top. The same person is working on a slightly less
"loud/obnoxious" character, but one who is essentially street scum.
Somebody who doesn't care who he works for, and what the job is,
provided the money is at the end of it. But as he said the other day,
how does someone like that integrate into an environment which contains
so many shining examples of "The John Wayne syndrome".
I have a couple of characters operating on tk at the moment who have
strong moral beliefs, however, those beliefs are secondary to survival.
One of them is at this time associated with Pauls ambitious "nasty
person" Emma, and partly embroiled in his "Farmer" plot. But with Lynch
I find that the man is a tad over the top, in as much as he is an
epitomy of "good guy". I keep getting strange visions of him as a Tom
Berenger look alike (from Rustlers Rhapsody) <grin> (No offence meant
Paul)
> But wait a second.... most runners aren't that highly educated, and
> don't come from rich, enlightened backgrounds. Most runners grew up
> near or on the streets. That kind of life doesn't tend to give people
> a pleasant view on people that are different (in any way).
True, and again I agree with you. But then, not all Shadowrunners are
street born and bred, some are ex-corporates who are either
dissillusioned with the life they were leading, or are rich and seeking
thrills. Others are ordinary people who are forced into the lifestyle
because of a variety of incidents, others may be ex military/government
types who have been discharged or resigned from the services, and have
nothing else to offer society except the skills they learned in service,
the same goes for security services... I'm convinced that ex-security
agents/guards/specialists will be running the shadows. Not all of them
will be low life scum from the gutters, bred and weened on the
corruption and filth the lives there. Also, some may have come from
orphanages, where high morals are taught by an old priest or somesuch,
and have entered street life with a vision of cleaning the corruption
from the system, these will be the most disillusioned and possibly
bitter of the runners out there.
> Considering the amount of 1980s and 1990s references and the general
> attitudes, I think shadowtk is one of the most skewed representations
> of what shadowrunners are like.
Agreed. (I really must stop that). There is some debate as to whether
80/90's slang would be in use. I would say yes, "foul" language has
existed for centuries, the fact that FASA chose to introduce frag and
drek, is merely a reflection of family values, it sounds better to have
kids sitting around a table using this kind of terminology, than
swearing a blue stream... <g> That new slang and expletives would be
introduced is of no doubt, new words are brought into modern speech,
every year. So...
As regards the commentary on preferences for old aircraft/weapons/music.
Well, there's not much one can do about that. If Lynch wants to fly an
old Phantom, use ancient weapons and listen to 80's rock, that is merely
part of his character, the same as people today prefer centuries old
classic music, and classic tales. I don't think it would be a
reflection of society in 2058, just a personal preference. Also, as
heavy metal seems to be an undercurrent theme in Shadowrun/Cyberpunk,
the fascination for 80's rock isn't that strange, it may have gone
through a revival phase, as most music styles tend to do, Techno and
similar styles would also be prevelent in that time.
>There is a reason that Johnsons
> normally screw runners and that is because most runners deserve it.
> Most runners are sleazes that don't deserve an ounce of respect, let
> alone be treated fairly by normal society.
Ah, at last, something I don't totally agree with. <g>
The above statement is a little ambiguous, Johnson's will screw with
runners for a variety of reasons, not just because the runner deserves
it. If I may take a moment to quote something from Cyberpunk
It's taken from Edgerunners Inc. (sourcebook) and reflects something I
feel would be true to Shadowrun as well. (This paragraph concerns the
formation of the company known as Edgerunners Inc.)
<quote>
.... was familiar with street culture, and the freelance operatives the
media were calling Edgerunners. he also knew there was no centralised
way to get hold of them; Corps usually worked with a single set of
'Runners that they had come to trust, or tried to get in touch with a
team or operative through a fixer. This was tricky, as you might not
get what you needed or wanted.
What was needed, Michael reasoned, was a temp agency for Edgerunners, a
way to match up teams and operatives with jobs that suited not only
their skills, but their temperament. Such an agency would have to be
Net base, of course, so it couldn't be tied back to him...
</quote>
The first paragraph reflects something that I think would hold true for
Shadowrun, that corps work with a team/operative that they have come to
trust, because of the difficulty of contacting the Runners. It's not
really as simplistic as Shadowrun implies. A Johnson can't just walk
into a bar and hire a team of runners, finding a Johnson/Fixer isn't as
simple as walking into The Fixer Bar & Grill. When a corp finds a team
that works, they will use them until they are either dead, burned out,
or compromised.
Imagine if you will, Fuchi want a run against a small electronics firm
who have discovered a new processor that doubles the power of a
cyberdeck, Fuchi want the chip, and don't want the company to release
it, as it will cut into Fuchi profits. How do they get a team to
contract the run? Advertise on Shadowland, (which isn't really very
sensible for Shadowrunners), walk into a "known" Shadowrunner bar (give
me a break... that same bar also contains undercover operatives for the
security agencies) So how do they do it? At some time, at some point
in their history they will have made a few dodgy contacts, they may have
"acquired" a team or two, and it is this regular contact that they will
use. I can't believe that they will risk everything by employing any
old Tom/Dick or Harry. Cyberpunks' use of a "shadow" board "Edgeruners
Inc." is something that I feel should exist in Shadowrun, that role is
not filled by Shadowland. Nowhere in the sourcebooks does it mention
that Shadowland is a source for work. Also, open advertising on a board
like that means the corps have access to Shadowland, if one does, others
do, maybe even the one you are contracting against. So, an independant
"clearing house" makes sense.
That's also part of the reason a Johnson won't frag over a Runner team,
not because he's scared of reprisals, I doubt the Johnson could care
less, but because he/she may need that team again, especially if they
follow orders well, and are effficient. If the team make a mess of the
run, make a lot of noise and draw attention to the operation, or just
basically screw up, then yes, there will be "deductions" made, even to
the point of refusing payment totally. But the runners are likely to
learn from this. I don't accept that all Runners are morons who are
going to get rolled over every job. Runners are the exception to street
life, they have skills the normal person does not possess. For example,
Paul plays about with the TA's occassionally, both he and I are
shooters, he's probably better than I am, as a result of more training
and more opportunity. On the flip side, I'm better trained than he is
regarding computers and networks, though these skills are far from
unique, they seperate us from the majority of people in our
neighbourhoods. Nobody else in my street knows dick about computers, so
they come and talk to me when they want something or need advice on an
upgrade. Paul works for a defence firm, designing and producing
materials for the military, again, not something for the average person.
OK, this example isn't representative of street people, but how do you
explain the presence of skilled personnel in the Shadows. The decker is
a person who is fascinated by computers and the matrix, a superior
reflection of the modern day hacker. Hackers today are primarily
interested in the sharing and transferring "knowledge/information",
Deckers in Shadowrun also trade in information. The street sam is a
combat specialist, with a fascination for weapons/gear that enhance his
abilities. These are not normal street people. I can't see a standard
tramp (bum) being able to co-ordinate a run against a guarded facility.
>A lot of runners stand out
> like sore-thumbs to normal society because they flaunt their
> differences instead of trying to blend in.
True (ish). Shadowrunners are intrinsically arrogant. They are
confident in their skills and abilities and rely on these to gain profit
and survive in a competitive and hostile environment. However, I don't
believe they stand out like a sore thumb. Shadowrunners, by their
chosen way of life are the walking epitomy of "illegal" They are hated
by "respectable" society, hunted by the law enforcment agencies,
persecuted by the media, and labelled as murderers, thieves and "not
nice"... To make yourself "known" as A Shadowrunner, and to advertise
that fact by ignoring society and making yourself obvioius, is inviting
your demise at the hands of security and law enforcement, in much the
same way as modern criminals are hunted by modern law enforcement, and
when they are found, or make themselves public, what is the reaction...
Read the newspapers, it happens every day. I would suggest that
Shadowrunners, except for the highly cybered ones (and that's another
complaint of mine) will blend quite well into the streets and society.
By their very nature, they _must_ in order to survive.
Cyberware is one of my pet hates. A street sam with increased reflexes,
cybereyes and all manner of enhancements is going to move in a massively
different way to other people, he's going to alienate himself from
society because of that difference, he has become a combat monster, and
as such is unpredictable and deadly, making him a "risk" to casually
associate with. I always see this type of character as the shadow in
the corner, hiding from prying eyes, desperate not to be noticed, and
terminated by law enforcement. The cybered character is the ultimate in
social outcasts, by the very presence of vast quantities of cyberware,
that character is no longer a part of street culture, they draw
attention, and make people notice you. This is a bad thing, and one of
the reasons I have such a problem with heavily cybered characters. None
of my characters (except one) have any significant cyber enhancements,
they have cyberware, but not to the point that most characters in SR
games seem to pack it, just the essentials to assist in their chosen
walk of life. A couple of them don't have any, relying purely on their
skills, training and experience to help them. That is a standard in my
Game world, anyone heavily cybered is a Police magnet, and must
therefore hide in a darkened area during the day, and avoid public areas
at night.
>They bargain (as was
> pointed out in a Shadowrun source book (Fields of Fire)) by
> intimidating the Johnson. That doesn't do anything for respect.
But isn't the Johnson also employing intimidation to employ them. Work
for me and get paid, refuse and you'll look like idiots, when your
acquaintances pull this off without a hitch and celebrate their easy
earnings. Peer pressure is as much intimidation as is threatening to
cack a Johnson, and bullying him/her for more money. Fields of Fire is
primarily based on Mercenaries, Mercs are more likely to use
intimidation to gain better financial reward because of the very nature
of their assumed role in society. They fight wars for people, they
assist rebel/government forces during a coup. They are employed to
fight other trained armed forces. Mercs are not Shadowrunners, they are
mercenaries, the fact that some choose to run the shadows is not a
reflection of that caste.
> It has been a long time since I have seen a true representation of
> what runners are like. The Wanderer is probably the closest example
> in my characters. Ratspeak is another good example of it.
I can't comment much here, as I don't know the Wanderer and Ratspeak too
well, Their precis on the Character list is short and lacks the
information I need to be able to judge that.
> The only way that I understand the trend here is that players are
> supposed to be the shining stars of the Shadows, and that the rest of
> the shadows are an extremely unprofessional lot, as likely to help
> each other as to sell them out.
That does unfortunately appear to be a general thing on the list, but
then maybe the people here like to play the hero, rather than a
character who is darker and less "good guy". Again something I call the
"John Wayne Syndrome". It's kinda fun sometimes to play a hero, someone
who comes through against the odds, with his/her morals intact and a
deep personal code unviolated. I am guilty of possessing exactly such a
character, though the plots he's involved in are contrary to those
personal codes - he just doesn't know it yet.. <g>
> Which leads me to something I alluded to earlier this week. I was
> under the impression that Shadowtk was NOT Shadowland (back when I
> joined which was almost 4 years ago), and thus we can say it is as
> hard or easy to get to as the general consensus on plot-d likes.
Don't know. When I signed onto this list two years ago, it was
difficult to decide exactly what it was. I signed off in confusion.
Then rejoined again last year, and slowly have still not arrived at a
conclusion. The general concept seems to be that though Shadowtk is
_not_ Shadowland, it is a reflection of a Shadowland node, maybe a
server tied into the path leading to Shadowland, who knows. To some
characters, it would be Shadowland, or at least as close as they can
get, to others they may believe wholheartedly that they have found one
of the fabled Shadowland nodes, and would treat this area as exactly
that... As you so rightly state, not eveyrone has the skills to access
Shadowland itself (though by FASA rulings now, anyone can have it as a
contact - go figure.. mummble, mutter, grumble) But the presence of
shadowrunners in this node, may say to the less skilled or less able,
that they have in fact found the place. It's down to interpretation in
the end. :)
>I
> think it is time to make it harder to get to. Make it so that only
> decent deckers (and their friends) can get to Shadowtk. At least in
> that way, it would fit the type of characters that tend to post here.
> Most of the characters are enlightened people who are generally a cut
> above the typical shadowrunner. I think it is time that the
> difficulty of getting to shadowtk reflected that.
Well, there are two problems here. Though you are right, and Shadowtk
should be changed to reflect the primarily corporate and incredibly
highly skilled/classed/quality characters that post here, it would
result in a situation where the majority of plots would collapse from
this restriction, with people not being able to post comments/storylines
as a result of their characters not being able to access it. Certainly
all of my characters bar one, would not be able to access a board with
those restrictions. None of them can apparently compete with the likes
of Serenity and Flux, the Two Jakes and other "high class" deckers. The
other basic characters I have wouldn't be able to utilise this node for
transfering data, and the plots I have ongoing would stop, as would
other people's.
I did suggest to Mark last year, whether the creation of a second node
would be worthwhile, Mark wasn't at that time interested in setting up
another list, and as he is still extremely busy now, I shouldn't think
that situation has changed any.
In order to fullfill your suggestion, it would be necessary to create an
area where the less "high skilled" characters can gain access. My major
complaint with things at the moment, although up to a point I agree with
you, is the massive presence of publicly recognised corporate affiliates
and commanders. SIGA, a DC associated Security agency, with Lynch, who
although he claims to run the shadows, is such a public figure, he's
almost disqualified. Serenity Deckers, another public corporation, and
many other characters and companies who are what I would describe as
"public", not a part of what is intrinsicaly Shadowrun. However, I've
enjoyed many of the posts that Paul has produced with Lynch, and over
conversations on private mail, we are more than aware of our own
opinions, ideas and attitudes regarding both our plots and characters.
I don't know enough about Mark and Brians companies to comment on them
really, but it doesn't feel that the spirit of Shadowrun is alive here,
it's more "Corporaterun" <g>
A very long post detailing a conversation between Dragoneyes and
someone, left me confused and scrabbling through Marks archives to find
out what it was all about, I still haven't quite figured that one out
yet :) I was firmly convinced that the character was going to die, and
a series of events would occur as a result of that death, I felt
somewhat cheated and more than a little puzzled when his death speech
turned into a "never mind I'm getting better now" sort of thing, though
I'm still curious to see how that's going to develop.
Again, although I may not agree with the presence of SIGA, the FBI and
others on this list, I'm involved in Pauls plot, from two angles and am
enjoying his little twists and plot developments. The same applies to
other posts here. I may not agree with such a high corporate presence
here, but it does make for interesting reading sometimes.
> *gets off soapbox as it collapses from the rot that set in 2 years ago*
Stay on the soapbox a while longer Mike, you have some valid points,
much of which I agree with. It might take the observations of an older
list member to get points over, as a newbie like myself is more likely
to be ignored <grin>
Although I agree with the majority of what you say, I don't agree with
changing the list to reflect the professionalism and superiority of some
of the characters here. That would be counterproductive. However, it
would be nice to see more characters that are in keeping with the
Shadowrun/Cyberpunk genre and less in keeping with the "miniature god"
that "John Wayne Syndrome" produces.
I recall also, last year, a disagreement over the number of "encrypted"
posts as opposed to public posts that were made to the list. Although
much of the "Private" conversation that occurs is encrypted for very
good reasons, and integral to the plots it is used in, it doesn't help
to create debate and character interaction, which I feel should be more
prevelant here.
I really don't want to get into that debate again, so I'll leave it at
that. Maybe as more people get bored with being a superhero, more
"realistic" and earthy characters will slowly appear. <grin>
Anyway, I've just realised how much I've rambled her, so I'll do
everyone a favour, and shutup for a while.
--
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A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
