| From: | Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Re: Info wanted... |
| Date: | Mon, 31 Mar 1997 01:30:57 +0100 |
Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU> writes
>According to Avenger:
>>None of the really dark ones do, unfortunate? I think so.
>
>Goes with the territory, I guess.
Yeah, I suppose so, but sometimes it would be nice. Two of my favourite
bad guys were played by Alan Rickman, and I was rather put out when the
good guy won. I felt, especially in Robin Hood, that Costner should
have lost <grin> Good bad guys add colour, variety and dynamism to what
is otherwise a standard "good guy" plot, and although the "white hats"
are a prevelent thing with players, not just here on the list, they are
rather passe. <g> It would be nice to see a *decent* bad guy make it
through, and hang around longer than normal, or at least a few more less
than "soap powder" white good guys.
>>rings. Not bad for a "kid". And it's not often that a kid posts to
>>the list, just when someone wants to have an irritating squirt around
>>for a moment. Like Dashira and whoever Tinners kid was during Thunda.
<snippy>
>teacher made everyone in my class learn BASIC and Logo, and I'm sure I could
>have picked up C and Java if they had been as popular at the time as they
>are now....again, not to belittle Nic, but when I think of computer prodigies
>I think of people like Dan Farmer or RTM.
Agreed Mark, but in the example I was using with "Nic", he's not an
average kid, he really is good, I've seen some of the stuff he's written
and "spoken" to him, he's got a hell of a lot more savvy than most kids
his age. In respect to your comments, yes, there would need to be
certain resources available, a defined level of training, that would
explain his presence, though I dare say it is possible to stumble across
a board like Shadowland. In browsing around the net I've occassionally
found myself in an area that I would not normally have attempted to
reach. As far as Otaku are concerned, I'm afraid I can't stand the
nasty little critters, they rank up in my hate books with Imortal Elves,
and ED crossovers. The major problem I have with SR at the moment, is
FASA giving away Shadowland as a contact for any character prepared to
pay 1 DP to acquire it, _any_ character. Now, although for S-tk
purposes this is a good thing, as it means it is now easier to allow
pretty much any type of character to post to Shadowland, and you don't
need a cyberdeck to do it, but it is also detrimental to the game, in as
much as it has reduced a lot of the mystique and "fame" of the fabled
node to a simple BBS.
>I guess the point is that with the rise of the Information Age there's a lot
>of room for the average kid's computer proficiency to rise without making them
>especially "talented" in the sense that a top-rated decker must be talented.
>In 2058, I'm sure that kids can be educated in as many computer languages as
>they (or their parents) choose to be. =)
Again, agreed.
>>for S-tk to read, but is not really something I think would happen. The
>>FBI, though they undoubtedly monitor Seattles Shadowland boards, are
>>highly unlikely to make their presence known. And certainly wouldn't
>>use it for traffic. :) (Though for the moment they will continue to do
>>so <g>)
>
>This was one of the reasons for the INTERNAL tag. =)
Yes. And when applicable, both Paul and I use it, but for
communications between the two companies, it becomes a little more
difficult.
>On the third hand
>though, I could see an organization that has to share network substrate with
>sister governmental organizations routing some traffic (probably with extra
>encryption) through Shadowland simply to avoid the prying eyes of their own
>MIS staff. Part of why Shadowland occupies the place it does in the world
>model is that it offers a very valuable service: reasonably secure, reasonably
>private, reasonably reliable communications.
However, the observation was more in reflection of the amount of
"corporate" traffic on this list, rather than the fact that there is any
at all. I agree that some small amounts of communication would travel
through this style board, for the exact reasons you state, but looking
through the posts that are contained in the archives, there's a lot of
company/corporate traffic, far more than would normally be found on what
is primarily a "shadow" board, something that isn't a standard access
area for mail/contact between companies. The problem being that there
seems to be an inordinate amount of company affiliates present, and a
much smaller number of "standard" Shadowrunner types. Also, logically,
the presence of corporate/law enforcement/security/whatever means that
the runs advertised here, the conversations, video posts and other
things would mean that organisations would have a better and greater
chance to exact revenge on the characters present. For example, someone
hits Fuchi for a reasonable datasteal, pops in here to sell the results
of that steal, or brags about it... That datasteal has hurt Fuchi
profits and given some research technology to a rival company who are
now able to compete and market at the same time, cutting the profit
margin. Fuchi personnel know who was responsible because they read this
board... Oopsy.
Although the initial datasteal didn't hurt that much, the loss of market
share, profit and shareholder confidence is sufficient reason for Fuchi
to consider some form of reprisal against that character, depending on
the severity this could vary from a sound beating, to death. That's the
main reason I feel Shadowland would and should be more secret, with very
little or no corporate/company presence. Of course, some company stuff
is essential to the plots that occur here, I'm just, I suppose amused,
at the fact that people who already work for companies, would want to
relect a similar attitude and mind set in their characters <g>
>>him, and he grows in here. But to have a net god suddenly arrive would
>>be ridiculous, and uninteresting. Something I feel would happen, if the
>>level of this list was increased. I know quite a few people who post
>>here, who don't want to play with "Superhero" characters. Just slightly
>>more than ordinary joes, who want to make a living.
>
>But what is a "net god"? Skill level 6?
Skill levels are not something that can be easily assigned to a list
like this, where the judgement of characters' abilities is made through
the posts of the player. If I was to say that a skill level of 6 in my
games was average, in some places eyebrows would be raised. But in
others people would look at SL 6, and think, grief, that's not even
starting level...
>Higher?
OK, in a loose definition, in my opinion a net god is a decker who needs
not worry too much about other deckers, IC or matrix security, someone
who casually cuts through the Matrix like a hot knife through soft
butter. There are some, (what initially appear anyway) very powerful
deckers present on Shadowtk, deckers who are capable of achieving
wondrous things with little or no strife. An increase in the basic
rating of this list, would dynamically increase the number of characters
of this type of ability. How would you feel if I or someone else,
suddenly introduced a character of the skill of Mark I's Flux, and
started cutting through Corporate IC as if it wasn't there. I know I'd
get a bit cheesed about it. Facing the logic of the situation, Mark has
been playing Flux for some time, he's built the character in here,
AlexandriaN and other deckers also have existed in this list for a
while, I don't have a problem with that... My point is that Mike's
suggestion to increase the intrinsic difficulty to reach this list,
which would then require that new/introductory/starting characters would
rival characters like Flux, without having spent the time developing in
the list. They would just arrive, already at that "level". That is
what I have a problem with. <g>
>It varies from campaign to
>campaign. I think part of what's _good_ about not insisting on mechanics for
>everything is that the "depiction" of the character in words tends to
>normalize for the different power levels from the campaigns the characters here
>came from (to some extent at least =)
Yes... It can do, but from a "watcher" point of view, some pretty
amazing things are achieved here in a very casual way. For example the
recent transportation of a considerable mechanised brigade through
European soil to a german village (not sure what happened there, as I
was off the list for a while). Lynch's miraculous transferrals from one
location to another, and his apparent casualness in flaring a chopper in
to a pin point landing inside the CZ, with little or no consequence for
that action, flying the machine in weather that other pilots would frown
at... Little things, that look cool when written, but come over as a
little OTT.
I hate using examples like that, as it appears that I'm moaning about
the characters and players, I'm not, but you have to look at it from the
point of view of new players and lurkers. When they see posts from
Flux, with no T/D stamp, from Paul or myself, where the character is
doing something pretty phenomenal, the temptation is to think that is
the normal behaviour of this list, and act/write accordingly, to the
detriment of one's plot, and usually to the objection of people who have
spent some time working their characters to that level of acceptability.
I appreciate that Mike was making a point that seems to be an old gripe
of his, and I do tend to agree with a lot of what he said, but changing
the list to reflect the capabilities of those established characters
would not actually achieve anything, except to encourage others to
introduce characters like them.
At the moment, I'm slowly introducing characters to this list, and would
rather that everyone became aware of them over a period of time that
allowed for questions to be asked, problems cleared up, and so that
everyone slowly familiarises themselves with those characters as they
develop. I don't for one minute believe that a character I, or another
"newer" listmember introduced that displayed the same skills, contacts,
and corporate affiliates as an established character would be accepted
without some complaint and arguing. Rightly so I feel, but a fact
nonetheless. Increasing the level of this list to acknowledge people
like AlexandriaN, Lynch, Flux, Frypp, etc *must* propogate and provoke
exactly that situation, otherwise there is going to be some very fast
and slick explaining as to how a low power character gained access.
>To some extent, I think this is
>actually a good forum for "high-powered" characters to be able to stretch
>their legs, so long as their players can simulate their competence with good
>writing.
OK, at the risk of seeming belligerent, if I was to produce a "well
written" post that displayed a character with skills matching or higher
than an "older" listmembers character, with contacts and abilities
beyond the logic of acceptance, it would be acceptable? - I don't think
so. As I mentioned, one of the characters I use is an NPC in my game
world, his abilities are very well established, and he's been in that
game world for about four/five years. Introducing a character that
highly skilled here, and running him in the fashion suited to his "game"
stats, would, I feel be met with derision. I suspect that Ratspeak is
one of the stranger and more respected Deckers in this list, I don't
think Ratspeaks player would be overly impressed by a newbie character
displaying the same or better skills and abilities as his "long term"
character. A justified reaction, but one that is likely to occur much
more, if Mike's suggestion is accepted.
>It's quite clear that _just_ having a higher Firearms skill or
>Initiative score means little or nothing in the face of a well-prepared
>opponent.
Absolute agreement. But how often are the opponents well prepared. I
recall a post before Christmas, that I personally felt was over the top,
and carried off way too easily considering the characters involved, and
the opposition. I won't name the post, as I don't want to offend the
person who wrote it, a lot of their other stuff has been very
entertaining and interesting, but that one post displayed the "ST Red
Shirt" mentality I mentioned. The higher skilled and abled a character,
the more likely they are to overcome odds, but opposition here, isn't of
a class that often reflects the skills of the people protrayed.
As I'm sure you'll agree with Paul and myself, even a small company,
with a small security force is a hard nut to crack, but how many people
will accept that, rather than just happily wading through it guns
blazing with no recurse or consequence? I know I've had some arguments
over private mail with the IF crew over some of the things that occured
during the stuttering lifetime of that plot, and I've also had a few
arguments with the players involved in my own plots. A considerable
number of posts have travelled between Paul and myself, where things are
happening we object to, or have an opinion on, ultimately, we've come to
accept the way we both think, and accept that some things are different.
The power of characters here, would not be a fair thing to throw to new
people who want to join this list. To demand that they produce "high
power" characters to just access this list, would be self defeating, and
likely cause a lot more arguments and objections than have so far
occured here.
The other problem that arises, is in interacting with these higher class
characters. During the Thunda episode, I was _very_ surprised that so
many of the listmembers got embroiled in it, and even more surprised
when established characters became involved. It added a little something
to that plot, which only started as a "dare" ;) But I think everyone
here will agree, when I say that, even though Thunda was of a level to
compete with the characters on this list, he was so seriously over the
top, as to be laughable. It was quite a relief when it was finally
agreed how Thunda would die, the sequence of events leading to it, and
when Paul finally told me his posts for Lynch were prepared. It meant a
totally munchkin episode for me could end, and that was quite a relief.
But converse to that, I don't feel comfortable approaching or appealing
to one of the experienced characters using a new "lower power"
character, much of what he/she is doing is likely to be beneath the
notice of these superiors, and I am extremely unlikely to directly
approach something like Serenity or SIGA.
The other thing that seems a bit strange is the intrinsic public image
of many characters on the list, they don't really qualify as
Shadowrunners anymore, many of them are famous, more are involved with
very public companies, and although they may have started in the
shadows, they are too well known by the various government/law
enforcement agencies and populace to actively run in the shadows. They
are more like "government agents with a good PR". (A bad analogy
but...)
For example, two of Pauls main characters have featured in TriD reports
and heavily in film clips of events. Easy and Lynch. One of my
characters has also appeared on TriD reports, which means logically,
they are no longer part of the Shadows, and unlikely to be able to
operate successfully in that environment. (Sorry Paul, it looks like I'm
picking on you, I'm not...) Sascha's characters now have DNA samples
with the UCAS military, also pretty much precluding them from active
Shadowrunning.
I'm curious to know how the listmembers define Shadowrun, is it a
solo/team that is surviving against the odds and trying to make their
way in life, or is it a group of people who have formed their own
company and are trying to increase their share value and compete with
the big boys (which is more in keeping with much of what happens here)?
--
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A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
