From:	Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Plots to Subplots to Infinitus Ad Nauseum
Date:	Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:51:56 -0800

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Ereskanti wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-26 06:01:26 EST, you write:

> Karl, Again, I am sorry. As I said, Bruce was told, as it was something we
> were discussing as he was the "Johnson" for this. I didn't put it to
Plot-D,
> as the whole of Plot-D is not the ... this is not coming out right ...
> rethinking ... Bruce is the "Johnson", and Prophet operated within the
> parameters of the Johnson. It only effected the actions of the "TOSSIT"
group
> with regards to the "TOSSIT" Group members.

Ahem. Just a little question here, since before I leap down anybody's
throat, I'd like to make sure where I'm going, but when you say "Bruce was
told" and then say "effected the actions of the "TOSSIT" group" I
seem to
have this little problem screaming in the back of my head. Are not Brion
and Karl also part of the TOSSIT group and therefore _directly_ and
absolutely effected by something that sends all mail, no matter how
private from the TOSSIT members directly to Prophet? So, and this is a
rather crucial point, did _you_ ask their permission before-hand? If not,
then you were violating the "PRIVATE" groundrule, because you didn't
_ASK_. Sure, my characters aren't effected directly, although given one
less day in some events going on and Fang would have been a TOSSIT member,
and he does get his matrix access through a decker who would have had a
decent chance to detect something hinky going on with his mailer, I don't
know about the other TOSSIT people. See, this is exactly the thing we
were all up in arms about last time when you had Binder waltz into the
Newbie9 story and start pulling things without consulting the people who
had come up with the story. This is collaborative fiction, and it really
falls apart when people don't COLLABORATE.

> Basically, it's a decker being a decker. It wasn't a permanent thing, nor was
> it meant to be. But it was meant to be a "role playing the character
thing",
> which is something that Erik does well, and I am attempting to do well. It is
> something I've noticed Brion and Yourself do well with Irish and Xenon. It's
> the paranoia aspect of the character slipping in. It's not the destructive
> force slipping in, believe me it's not.

> And yes, I know about the "PRIVATE" ruling for "TK", which is why
it did not
> go beyond the TOSSIT format.

Fine, you're characters paranoid. So are lots of characters in ShadowTk,
but we are writers. And if we want to work together, we need some sort of
ground rules and common world that we can all stick by, and just as
importantly, if we are going to be doing things which effect other
characters, then we better be telling their writers (global effects go to
PlotD, personal effects usually best handled over private e-mail) so that,
even if it is a surprise to the character, the writer has forwarning to
deal with it in a realistic manner, or discuss what effects that such
things will have on the story that you are collaborating on. Effectively
the World of ShadowTk is the one unified story that we are all
collaborating on, and should be treated as such. Hopefully this will be
the last time I have to say this until next September.

> As I said, Bruce was made aware of it, and as I said, I made an assumption
> that this was a "PBEM Format" arena. I treated Bruce in this case as the
> overriding GM for the particular project. The whole of the list was not
> involved in the actions. That is the transgression I have made for the week,
> the only real transgression.

Hopefully you are no longer under either of these assumptions. This is
not, nor ever has been a PBEM. *sigh* While Bruce is hardly a GM, I would
say that he has overriding say in what happens to the story that he is
trying to create _in as much_ as his story doesn't effect other characters
and plots either directly or indirectly, and which point the effected
persons should be consulted. If he wants to eventually see something
happen in his plot, you have all the right to privately or in character
talk him out of it, but it is a really bad move to actively post things
that will counter what he was trying to do, just because you feel like it.

Hell, I wouldn't mind if you wanted to pull in your Black Omega group from
Fuchi and have them do street mime in Tarislar. That Fuchi has covert
operations groups goes basically without saying. As long as you consulted
the characters you planned on effecting with your story (Paul, how would
Easy react to a bunch of Mimes in Fuchi combat fatigues out in front of
the Easy Eight?) and weren't planning on doing anything major to change
the worldview without conscent of the list (no, a critical mass of mimes,
no matter how large will not create a mage storm) then I don't see why I
could have any problem with your story. If you wanted to involve any of
FASA's PCs (the Villiers themselves are leading the mime troupe) then I
would be more worried because those kinds of things are directly effected
by FASAs writings and in general, are handled obliquely if at all, and not
without list conscent. If you wanted to have them sneak into Ares Special
Projects (the subdivision I created, with List concent, that houses the
Valkyrie Project, also created with list concent) and blow up everybody
there, then I would a serious goddamn problem because those are my
characters, and my story, and I frankly don't want them blown up right
now.

DO you DIG? ARE you CATCHING my DRIFT?

> It hasn't covered any of the other talks, like Irish's selling of the
> Hellhounds, the strange bar request conversations that were flying around the
> last week or so. It didn't effect any character that wasn't involved in
> "TOSSIT".

Actually, _yes_ because of what you said, it DOES cover anything Xenon or
Irish have sent from their computers. EVEN stuff that they would have
been doing in the background and never told the list or you about.

> Basically the list has trouble with a decker being a decker, and a magician
> being a magician.

Now that's just horse-hockey.

What the list has trouble with, is gung-ho writers entering the collective
sandbox and stomping and mucking about all over somebody elses plans and
carefully crafted castles, just because he wants to do as he damn well
pleases. And then whines horribly how we are an Old Boys Club of Big
Meanies out to squash him and his creativity because we got upset with him
and tried to explain what we were trying to do here and that he shouldn't
just bend and break the groundrules and toss out the common worldview as
he sees fit.

> If it's listed in the books, it flies, sure, but so much
> isn't in the books, and it's what's beyond the books that is part of the
> "Uniqueness" to a character. As Mike would argue, if I get the meaning
> correctly, "it's the Savantness" of a character within his/her/its?
particular
> field. The reason I point out these two, is that the TK/Plot-D formats very
> much restrict the "research" aspects IMO of the two listed archetypes.
> Decker's use virii and probes ... and an Initiated Magician uses the
> Metaplanes. Nothing beyond the truth there.

Uniqueness. Fine. Sure I have a little misgivings that someone needs to
have an otaku bastard son of the Fuchi CEO to feel unique, but that wasn't
what anybody was really complaining about. Sure, we were all laughing
hysterically behind your back about it, but its the fact that you are
mucking about worldview mechanics and pulling crap behind other writers
backs and then suddenly dropping the bomb on us all on STk, which has
people a little ticked right now. ShadowTk, is effectively the common
manuscript that we are all writing, and what is said there is supposed to
have happened in the world it represents which we _all_ have a stake in.
That you then have the gall to be upset when we take umbrage to your
stomping about is nearly as annoying.

We don't want to have you post every last fart your characters choose to
pass 24/7 to clear it with PlotD. Frankly, I am beginning to seriously
care less about anything you choose to write in the future, as is my
perrogative. BUT, when you have a concept that isn't in the rules, when
you are planning on taking your story where it might tread on other
peoples toes (the rule-of-thumb the FAQ uses is "Will it make the news?")
run the idea, not the story mind-you, past PlotD. When you are going to
have a character _do_ something that effects another character, let them
know beforehand. Effectively, if you have your character interact with
their character, you are writing _for_ that other character so their
writer better have a say in the matter. This isn't the voice of one of
"The Old Boys Club" this is of many voices in a large communal sandbox
asking you to not treat it as though it were filled with kitty litter.

--I've got work to do

Jeff
P.S. So much for the voice of reason.