From:	Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject:	ahh well....was worth a try
Date:	Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:40:00 -0800 (PST)

Was meaning to get around to this sooner...been busy.

On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Michael Dolmer wrote:

In reponse to Mark Neidengard:
> >In other words, cyberware with parts throughout the hosts' body, plus the
> >equivalent of a Vehicular Autopilot (to supplant the person's
> >consciousness)
> >and wireless commo gear. I don't have the sourcebooks in front of me to
> >concoct a specific "parts list", but it sounds to me like you're
talking
> >about a big Essence hit. Just getting the muscles and peripheral

I think what Mark was refering to here was based on the idea of a
human-drone that has been used before a few times on the list, where a
certain nasty fellow had people modified to be puppeteered by him via a
vehicle control rig and serve as his surrogate. The main difference
being replacing the control rig with a vehicular autopilot designed with
a human body in mind as the vehicle.

> Nope…..the premise is the dead body goes into the machine, and the *machine*
> reanimates it...one shot. boom. done. No cyberware implants involved,
> hence no major costs involved. No autopilot required. A simple radio
> tranciever placed inside the ear to transmit verbal orders (maybe a camera
> as a headset like in Universal Soldier), and the soul-less (not brain-less)
> automaton carries out the task.

I think this is the biggest problem that Mark and I had with the idea:
that there existed technology in the ShadowRun World that would allow
for there to be a machine where you could stick a dead body in one end
and spit out a zombie soldier on the other. If such a thing is allowed,
we may have to rething where people view the technological level of the
world to be. I think we also would beg to differ on the "hence no major
costs involved." I doubt reanimation in any form would come cheaply.
Another point: once dead, the human brain is a rather useless meaty
blob.

> Sure there’s some creative leaps here (it was a cheezy movie I got the idea
> from, after all).

Well, the reason one brings this up on PlotD is that you are making
creative leaps in the _communal_ sandbox. Best to be careful where
those leaps land you. =)

> But it’s no more a creative leap than a
> vampire taking a sword through the gut, rolling on it to slice open someone
> else and get up and walk away. They’re the walking dead. They just
> 'function'.

Sort of. One major difference is that ShadowRun already includes rules
and info about vampires. What Mark has done regarding their social
natures isn't as well covered in their sourcebooks, but I have yet to
see him violate anything that has specifically been said regarding them.
It is known that they can very rapidly regenerate from nearly any basic
physical damage that they aren't specifically vulnerable to. So, if you
are a vampire facing someone with a non-magical sword, why would you
worry (barring the momentary pain) if someone rammed it into you up to
the hilt? Hense, if that was your opponent's most dangerous weapon
against you, better it be safely locked inside your innards than
swinging at your head?

It isn't that I have any problem with zombies, per se. ShadowRun
already has rules for the magical version of them. But they, like most
things in the SR universe, don't "just 'function'," they have some
explanation behind them. Arguements about what ShadowRun has already
allowed into canon and how well/poorly FASA has been willing to explain
them, or even how well they follow their own continuity (i.e. FASA
demanding teleportation is impossible, and then having some
uber-villains teleport away) is another matter entirely. Mind you, even
those sorts of things are discussed here in PlotD, but in general,
everything on this list is either directly from ShadowRun, or based on
it. The further an idea is from what has been described by FASA to
exist in the SR universe, the better the explanation has to be for it to
be considered for being allowed into the ShadowTk continuity.

A mighty McGuffin that is pulled out of the blue without much thought is
not a completely innocent thing. You may want to include it with the
best of intentions for making your story cool, but it opens the door to
other writers who think "well if he did _THAT_ wait 'til they get a load
of _THIS_." In other words, it sets a precident. Pretty soon, writers
are leaving the stated levels of technology, magic, etc. behind and
potentially it could all snowball into something that has nothing to do
with ShadowRun anymore and will be unrecognizable for any new writers
wishing to join in. Which is why PlotD is here, and I felt the need
to call you on the carpet (good naturedly and with respect, at least).

> Does it sound more viable now that i've explained it? Not expensive, no big
> essence problems....etc. We just have to make the creative leap that
> there's technology out there that can actually do this.

Actually, no, you didn't really explain it (stating that you haven't
"gotten the device figured out yet"), and _because_ you claim it to be
inexpensive and have no major problems, that does set off the warning
bells of the other writers on this list. Why? Because if it was so
easy, so good, and so cost effective, why doesn't everybody do it? It
is a lot easier to win people over to your ideas if you are able to
see your idea from all angles, and be able to discuss the down-sides of
any idea as easily as the up-sides. As for the "creative leap," well
I'm not sure I'm willing to jump as far as you, but do read on.

> Still open to questions and criticisms before I scrap the idea....anyone
> else?

You don't have to scrap the idea on the first hints of critisism. You
just have to be willing to modify or refine your ideas in such a way
that you can address the honest concerns of your detractors. I didn't
wish my response to have you think that I was completely against your
using an idea like this in any form. I just wanted to you to think it
out more thoroughly and make sure you are roughly within the bounds of
what ShadowRun can allow.

There always has been, and regretibly probably always will be a need for
"cannon fodder" on the battlefield: the guy on point who finds out there
is an enemy sniper by getting himself shot, the first squad to hit the
beach, the team that has to charge the hill because, damnit, somebody
has to. A dead soldier is a terrible waste of resources. I agree with
these points with no reservation. A means to reanimate dead soldiers
and put them back to work seems to be an interesting, and useful idea at
its most basic. The main point raised here on PlotD is the manner of
execution, so that it is "believeable" for the other members of the
list.

While you only asked for questions and criticism, I'm willing to put an
idea of my own on the table that would at least satisfy my own concerns
and perhaps you can modify it to taste to suit the story you want to
tell. The McGuffin, in this case as someone else suggested, is the use
of nanotechnology of a relatively advanced and experimental nature, but
not completely outside the realm of what I see as possible in 2061
ShadowRun. To avoid confusion with their Voudoun-generated cousins,
I'll call these zombies Shamblers.

The body is an amazing piece of engineering, complete with sensors,
mobile apendages, and an array of support systems. Its purpose: keep
alive the brain it caries inside and serve it at least until it has
created progeny, and hopefully to help insure their survival as well.
Not the most refined design, but quite functional. As long as it has a
brain to use it. Otherwise it is a rather useless hunk of flesh and
bone. Unless it is turned into a Shambler.

The process starts with a dead soldier. After ascertaining brain death
(and therefore making pointless any attempt at resuscitation or
healing), the corpse is injected with drugs and chemicals to stabilize
the body and keep its organs, especially musculature, alive. Its wounds
are simply cauterized shut. Then a small computer with basic autopilot
/ combat programming would be stuffed somewhere in the body. Attatched
to it would be the nanite injector. From it, Shambler nanites spread
throughout the body. The "giant machine" you mention could exist. Its
purpose would be to scan the body and direct the nanites to their
destinations as well as programming them. Sensor nanites would attatch
to optic and auditory nerves. Motor nanites would integrate themselves
into major muscle groups. If the nervous system was not too damaged it
could be reused as a communications network for the nanites, or they
would simply leave a "trail" of data fiber on their way to their final
destination.

Collectively, the computer and nanites would control the body as an
organic drone. Given the number of nanites being relatively small
compared to the number of nerves in a living human body, the sensory
input from them would be of low quality, and the movements would lack
fine control, giving them jerky movements and hense the term for them
being "Shamblers." They could pick up, aim, and fire a weapon, but
don't expect to use one as a sniper. They would best be employed as
cannon fodder or shock troops in close-quarters battle.

I don't see the necessary connections and nanite programming being
instantaneous, so you won't get your zombies back on the field in
minutes, but hours isn't unbelievable. They will be relatively
unintelligent drones, without any memories of the person who used to
walk around in their skins because they nearly completely bypass any use
of the brain. They would be impervious to pain or fear, but they would
still have to have a beating heart and breathing lungs in order to keep
their musculature alive. On the other hand, if you did rip out their
heart, they could continue to fight until their muscles ran out of
oxygen, which is far longer than what it takes the brain to run out of
oxygen. The only way to dispatch them immediately is to destroy their
control computer, but that can be anywhere in the body, most likely
_not_ in the head. Depending on how long you have to keep them around,
you would have to give them water and may also have to feed them.
Since they are dead, essence is no longer really a conscern, and
magically, they are no more animate than a side of beef, which is a
mixed blessing / curse. Their "lifespan" would be relatively short,
both in deference to the fact that, without an essence, the body has
"given up the ghost" and metaphysically wants to die in the same way as
a person with sub-zero escence, but also, without proper endocrine
regulation by the brain and other such subtleties, the body would
eventually begin malfunction and fall apart.

As discussed by others, the nail in the coffin of this concept is
expense. Nanites, while small, are extremely expensive, and the "big
machine" that programs and organizes them isn't something you can find
in the Sears catalog either (not to mention not being something portable
enough to bring to say, a M*A*S*H unit). In the end, if you are some
third-world dictator who would be interested in zombie troops and cannon
fodder, it will be cheaper to just by more live soldiers than to
reanimate one dead one. So, definitely for the time being--at least
until nanotech becomes a lot cheaper, and your programming machine can
become cheaper and more portable, and your zombies can last longer than
a few days, nobody will be buying. Getting them to move less like a
_Night of the Living Dead_ reject and being able to hit more than the
broad side of a barn would also be necessary before anybody would want
to field the system.

So, in the end, you get your zombie soldiers, and you get your big
machine. But you also have a good reason why this won't be becoming
that popular of an idea. It is a bit far-fetched, but doesn't break the
bank, tech-wise. Take it, in whole or in part, or leave it. It's your
choice.

--My two yen

Jeff