Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Matt Breton <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: alternative game mechanics
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:40:55 -0600

Message no. 1 Ryan D DeLano wrote:

> >>1 - alternitive ways of winning. For example having a corporate deck
> >>that you win if you end up with 100 nuyen on the cred stick. (I
> > >bought out the world and my name is Microsoft.)

> >Not too sure about this one....All you have to do is just sit there
> >and deploy nothing for 24 turns (including first). That would take all the fun
I get out
> >of the game out of it.

> Yes, but if you deployed nothing for 24 turns, chances are your opponent would.

...Which really wouldn't matter *too* much, since it's possible (not easy, but not *that*
hard either) to prevent your opponent from winning -- Challenges, after all, are free.
I'd bet that I could build a dekc that gained 100Y in less then 12 turns -- but that's the
only way it would be able to win. (Think: Fame, Shakedown, StptB....) The only
competition it might stand is from a decker-thief deck, but - hey! - Riots is free, and
just powerful enough to kill Ice Queen...

So while I disagree with purchase-your-win, I think a few alternate win situations could
perk up the game. The American Indian expansion contains a variation on gaining Rep (hit
all four Kiva Objectives and you win), and Corp War also has a new win situation or two.
Obliged to silence past that detail, however.

> >#1 = Make Chipjack/Skillsofts ONE CARD!

> Agreed. I don't know anyone who actually uses skillsofts. all these
> card combinations sound like good ideas. Some cards are just too useless
> to put in a deck, but if you combined them.....

I have discovered one _cool_ use for skillsofts, and that's Ganger decks using the
Scatterbrains HQ: Suddenly those Skillsofts and Chipjacks also count for +1/+0 each,
meaning you can build some great sleaze guys who can still chop down a Dracoform is need
be. (And they're only Gear, so you can *still* stick a Katana or Panther on them and get
the bonus).

Or then there's always....

SEATTLE CENTER FOR ADULT EDUCATION / Location (Matrix) / 4¥
4¥: Turn a Runner to visit the Seattle Center for Adult Education. Search your draw
pile for any one Skillsoft, plus either a Chipjack or Skillwires card. Deploy both on
visiting Runner at no cost (Runner loses Essence as normal).

> >You could just keep a 20-sider on the sideboard and everytime after the first
you take, start counting. You reach 20....you outta cashflow. Funds are up! Go with
whatcha
> >got. And you may only put one challenge per turn down after that. I don't know
how it would work.

> I don't know about this. 20 nuyen is about enough for me to get three
> decent runners down and maybe some cheap gear, so if they die, I'm
> fragged, and all that would take is some cement shoes or something to
> that effect. And I have a hard enough time getting challenges out
> anyway.

I think Kevin's suggestion was that you have twenty turns of earning money and drawing
cards as normal -- and once you hit turn 20, there's (essentially) no more Credstick
phase. No more Y, no more draw, unless the cards you have in play or in your hand can do
it for you.

Which sounds liek a pretty cool idea, and is much better than flat-out ending the game at
turn 20.

- Matt

From:	q & a <maddox_prime@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: alternative game mechanics
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:10:31 EST

Message no. 2 Alternative playing methods??? Hmmm..... Well, the few games I've
gotten in on lately, we tried using a few methods..... The one that
really got folks going, was the use of a set starting hand... i.e.
You get to choose your starting hand. We followed the rules that they
use with the Babylon 5 game..... 3 cards to start with, and a max of 1
of any given type. Granted, the first few games you'd see Ice Queen,
with Sticky fingers, and fuchi coming out, or Torgo, Katana, and Heavy
armour..... But folks have begun to realize..... Prime runners are
expensive to start out with, it always helps to have a challenge to begin
with, and expensive, does you know good, 'till you can afford to play it.

Also tried, using a mandatory draw of one card per turn. Max hand size
of 7, ("Sorry chummer, you're holding 7 cards, you'll need to draw and
discard one....")

As well as really low rep points to win.

Currently I'm all set with a 50 Rep Game. 3 Cards to start with, (I lean
towards one rocker, one riots, and one challenge....) 0¥ to start with,
and a mandatory draw. Sure, sometimes the games last a little longer,
but they tend to be more intense.

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From:	Kevin P Dargis <NEORAZORBOY@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: alternative game mechanics
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:44:04 -0800

Message no. 3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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> >#1 =3D Make Chipjack/Skillsofts ONE CARD!

> Agreed. I don't know anyone who actually uses skillsofts. all these
> card combinations sound like good ideas. Some cards are just too =
useless
> to put in a deck, but if you combined them.....

>I have discovered one _cool_ use for skillsofts, and that's Ganger =
decks using the Scatterbrains HQ: >Suddenly those Skillsofts and =
Chipjacks also count for +1/+0 each, meaning you can build some great =
>sleaze guys who can still chop down a Dracoform is need be. (And =
they're only Gear, so you can *still* stick >a Katana or Panther on them =
and get the bonus).

Well, that's something I oversaw. Doh! sayz I. It's still the problem =
of having to get Chipjack out first and then Skillsoft. But now
that I take a second look and thought on Scatterbrains, I also realize =
you can give them all Armor cards and Yamaha Rapiers
and then they get defense plus offense. Also throwing in the Beretta. =
Geez....time to create a new deck for me chummers.

>Or then there's always....

>SEATTLE CENTER FOR ADULT EDUCATION / Location (Matrix) / 4¥
>4¥: Turn a Runner to visit the Seattle Center for Adult Education. =
Search your draw pile for any one Skillsoft, >plus either a Chipjack or =
Skillwires card. Deploy both on visiting Runner at no cost (Runner =
loses Essence >as normal).

Which soundz good. But would that be a Matrix location?

> >You could just keep a 20-sider on the sideboard and everytime after =
the first you take, start counting. You reach 20....you outta cashflow. =
Funds are up! Go with whatcha
> >got. And you may only put one challenge per turn down after that. I =
don't know how it would work.

> I don't know about this. 20 nuyen is about enough for me to get three
> decent runners down and maybe some cheap gear, so if they die, I'm
> fragged, and all that would take is some cement shoes or something to
> that effect. And I have a hard enough time getting challenges out
> anyway.

>I think Kevin's suggestion was that you have twenty turns of earning =
money and drawing cards as normal -- >and once you hit turn 20, there's =
(essentially) no more Credstick phase. No more Y, no more draw, unless =
>the cards you havve in play or in your hand can do it for you.

>Which sounds liek a pretty cool idea, and is much better than flat-out =
ending the game at turn 20.

>- Matt

Right-o to what Matt said. Except also make it a rule that you cannot =
forego nuyen and refresh your hand
on consecutive turns. Next time I get to play...I'll see if my =
opponent(s) would wanna try it and letcha know
how it goes. So, after further thought on this through the day at =
work....here's what I came up with...
Turn 1> You get your 8 nuyen and 8 cards and you have a counter starting =
at 20. Thingz are done normally otherwise.
Turn 2> You reveal your Objective as normal. Now you decide whether to =
take your cred or refresh hand. You take cred, you turn your 20 sider =
to show you have 19 turns remaining of collecting nuyen. You refresh? =
Then your counter stays at 20, but you
must take nuyen next time.

The reason for not allowing you to forego on consecutive turns is =
simple. What if one guy foregoes his first 22 turns (just to say)
while the other guy only forewent 2 times? Then, the other guy is outta =
cred and can only place one challenge per turn while the
one guy can keep popping max challenges a turn and deploy Runners n such =
as usual. It's either no foregoing on consecutive
turns OR once your opponent runs out of cred, you may only deploy 1 =
challenge per turn. Which probably would be easier to
understand and would be more fair.

The other rule after 20 turns of cred is Fame is cut off cuz you have no =
more credstick phase. That would have to include Kromagnus with his =
ability as well. Though, you may still play cards like Moonlighting and =
Shakedown n stuff. You can also no longer refresh your hand either. =
One card per turn to draw is it. I know this would pretty much =
eliminate pumpable challenges,
prime Runners, a lot of contacts n' stuff. Also realize Hermetic =
Library would kill this idea...so just say that all Runners and Gear =
cost at least 1 nuyen to deploy after turn 20 as well. Anyhoo....it's =
just a thought. I gotta try it and test it sometime.

I also wanted to correct myself on the "Silenced Weapons" idea I had =
with Flash grenade. I realized after sending that, that it's
not really a "silence" weapon of sorts...but maybe a concussion or stun =
vs. Street, Personnel and Awakened would be? And also
after sending....realized Water Elemental and Earth Elemental's Engulf =
would be reversed with Earth providing extra defense and Water providing =
more attack when trashed.

ONE MORE THING. And this is something I should probably take to FASA =
and b*tch about, but I hate the concept of the card
game havin' commons, uncommons and rares. To me, it's a game more than =
a collectors thing-a-ma-joob. The cards are
balanced so well n such plus the fact there is a max of 4 copies per =
deck, that it makes no sense. It seems they are just
following the trend of card makers in that area. I didn't major in =
marketing or anything, so I don't know what kind of reprecusions
the company would suffer for making it equal distribution of all =
cards....but I would wager to say it would be easier to draw more people =
in and retain fun and interest in the game with all the odds equaled and =
not who has the better income. I mean, the real challenge in the game =
is to create a deck and play it to it's best ability with the draw you =
get. FASA is lucky I absolutely LUV Shadowrun and the Card Game, cuz =
there would be a lot less chance of me spending the amount I did if it =
were anything else. I don't know exactly how long Magic: The Gathering =
has been out, but I know I've spent 5 bucks tops on the game just =
purchasing
throw away commons and playing with what I got. Oh well....I talk a =
lot, huh? I guess I'll shut my yap. For now. Laterz...Raz

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<DIV>> >#1 =3D Make Chipjack/Skillsofts ONE
CARD!<BR><BR>>
Agreed.  I don't know anyone who actually uses skillsofts.  =
all
these<BR>> card combinations sound like good ideas.  Some cards =
are just
too useless<BR>> to put in a deck, but if you combined =
them.....<BR><BR>>I
have discovered one _cool_ use for skillsofts, and that's Ganger decks =
using the
Scatterbrains HQ: >Suddenly those Skillsofts and Chipjacks also count =
for
+1/+0 each, meaning you can build some great >sleaze guys who can =
still chop
down a Dracoform is need be.  (And they're only Gear, so you can =
*still*
stick >a Katana or Panther on them and get the bonus).<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Well, that's something I =
oversaw.  Doh!
sayz I.  It's still the problem of having to get Chipjack out first =
and
then Skillsoft.  But now</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT><FONT
size=2>that I take a =
second look
and thought on Scatterbrains, I also realize you can give them all Armor =
cards
and Yamaha Rapiers</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and then they get defense plus offense.  Also
=
throwing in
the Beretta.  Geez....time to create a new deck for me
chummers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT><BR>>Or
then there's
always....<BR><BR>>SEATTLE CENTER FOR ADULT EDUCATION / Location =
(Matrix) /
4¥<BR>>4¥: Turn a Runner to visit the Seattle Center for =
Adult
Education.  Search your draw pile for any one Skillsoft, >plus =
either a
Chipjack or Skillwires card.  Deploy both on visiting Runner at no =
cost
(Runner loses Essence >as normal).<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Which soundz good.  But would that be a Matrix =
location?<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> >You could just keep a 20-sider on the sideboard and =
everytime
after the first you take, start counting. You reach 20....you outta
cashflow.  Funds are up!  Go with whatcha<BR>> >got.
And =
you may
only put one challenge per turn down after that.  I don't know how =
it would
work.<BR><BR>> I don't know about this.  20 nuyen is about =
enough for me
to get three<BR>> decent runners down and maybe some cheap gear, so =
if they
die, I'm<BR>> fragged, and all that would take is some cement shoes =
or
something to<BR>> that effect.  And I have a hard enough time =
getting
challenges out<BR>> anyway.<BR><BR>>I think Kevin's
suggestion was =
that
you have twenty turns of earning money and drawing cards as normal -- =
>and
once you hit turn 20, there's (essentially) no more Credstick =
phase.  No
more Y, no more draw, unless >the cards you havve in play or in your =
hand can
do it for you.<BR><BR>>Which sounds liek a pretty cool idea, and is =
much
better than flat-out ending the game at turn 20.<BR><BR>>-
Matt</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Right-o to what Matt said.  Except also make it a rule that =
you cannot
forego nuyen and refresh your hand</DIV>
<DIV>on consecutive turns.  Next time I get to play...I'll see if =
my
opponent(s) would wanna try it and letcha know</DIV>
<DIV>how it goes.  So, after further thought on this through the =
day at
work....here's what I came up with...</DIV>
<DIV>Turn 1> You get your 8 nuyen and 8 cards and you have a counter =
starting
at 20.  Thingz are done normally otherwise.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Turn 2> You reveal your
Objective =
as
normal.  Now you decide whether to take your cred or refresh =
hand. 
You take cred, you</FONT><FONT color=#000000 size=2> turn your 20 =
sider to show
you have 19 turns remaining of collecting nuyen.  You =
refresh?  Then
your counter stays at 20, but you</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>must take nuyen next =
time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT><FONT
color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>The reason for not allowing you to =
forego on
consecutive turns is simple.  What if one guy foregoes </FONT><FONT =

color=#000000 size=2>his first 22 turns (just to
say)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>while the other guy only forewent 2
=
times? 
Then, the other guy is outta cred and can only place one challenge per =
turn
</FONT><FONT color=#000000 size=2>while the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>one guy can keep popping max =
challenges a turn
and deploy Runners n such as usual.  It's either no foregoing on
consecutive</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>turns OR once your opponent runs out
=
of cred,
you may only deploy 1 challenge per turn.  Which probably would be =
easier
to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>understand and would be more =
fair.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>The other rule after 20 turns of =
cred is Fame is
cut off cuz you have no more credstick phase.  That would have to =
include
Kromagnus with his ability as well.  Though, you may still play =
cards
</FONT><FONT color=#000000 size=2>like Moonlighting and Shakedown n
=
stuff. 
You can also no longer refresh your hand either.  One card per turn =
to draw
is it.  I know this would pretty much eliminate pumpable =
challenges,
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>prime Runners, a lot of contacts n'
=
stuff. 
Also realize Hermetic Library would kill this idea...so just say that =
all
Runners and Gear cost at least 1 nuyen to deploy after turn 20 as =
well. 
</FONT><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Anyhoo....it's just a =
thought.  I gotta
try it and test it sometime.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I also wanted to correct myself on =
the
"Silenced Weapons" idea I had with Flash grenade.  I =
realized
after sending that, that it's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>not really a
"silence" =
weapon of
sorts...but maybe a concussion or stun vs. Street, Personnel and =
Awakened would
be?  And also</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT><FONT
size=2>after =
sending....realized
Water Elemental and Earth Elemental's Engulf would be reversed with =
Earth
providing extra defense and Water providing more attack when
trashed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>ONE MORE THING.  And this
is =
something I
should probably take to FASA and b*tch about, but I hate the concept of =
the
card</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>game havin' commons, uncommons and =
rares. 
To me, it's a game more than a collectors thing-a-ma-joob.  The =
cards
are</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>balanced so well n such plus the =
fact there is a
max of 4 copies per deck, that it makes no sense.  It seems they =
are
just</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>following the trend of card makers =
in that
area.  I didn't major in marketing or anything, so I don't know =
what kind
of reprecusions</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>the company would suffer for making
=
it equal
distribution of all cards....but I would wager to say it would be easier =
to draw
more people in and retain fun and interest in the game with all the odds =
equaled
and not who has the better income.  I mean, the real challenge in =
the game
is to create a deck and play it to it's best ability with the draw you
get.  FASA is lucky I absolutely LUV Shadowrun and the Card Game, =
cuz there
would be a lot less chance of me spending the amount I did if it were =
anything
else.  I don't know exactly how long Magic: The Gathering has been =
out, but
I know I've spent 5 bucks tops on the game just purchasing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>throw away commons and playing with
=
what I
got.  Oh well....I talk a lot, huh?  I guess I'll shut my =
yap. 
For now.  Laterz...Raz</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: alternative game mechanics
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:34:39 -0600

Message no. 4 :> >>1 - alternitive ways of winning. For example having a corporate deck
:> >>that you win if you end up with 100 nuyen on the cred stick. (I
:> > >bought out the world and my name is Microsoft.)
:
:> >Not too sure about this one....All you have to do is just sit there
:> >and deploy nothing for 24 turns (including first). That would take
all the fun I get out
:> >of the game out of it.

If this were a condtion of an objective, it would make things a a bit more
intersting. something like:
Objective:
"LEVERAGED BUYOUT"
Requirements- social, decking, technical, and stealth. You must have 15
credits on your credstick to a run against Leveraged Buyout.
Reputation must be purchased: 1¥ per point.
Picture; Stomper, holding a crowbar, walking into a board meting, with
Fastjack and Foxy behind him.

Another Idea this gives me is for objectives that let you decrese another
players rep, or specials that let you spend cash / rep to do so. The
above card would be an even better "buyout" if its rep reward was "+1
reputation for you, -1 for any player, at 2¥ per point".

:I have discovered one _cool_ use for skillsofts, and that's Ganger decks
using the Scatterbrains HQ: Suddenly those Skillsofts and Chipjacks also
count for +1/+0 each, meaning you can build some great sleaze guys who can
still chop down a Dracoform is need be. (And they're only Gear, so you
can *still* stick a Katana or Panther on them and get the bonus).

Scattebrains is just plain cool. Cheep gear decks are fun anyhow. That's
a neet idea, though not so slick if your SB card doesn't turn up.

:SEATTLE CENTER FOR ADULT EDUCATION / Location (Matrix) / 4¥
:4¥: Turn a Runner to visit the Seattle Center for Adult Education.
Search your draw pile for any one Skillsoft, plus either a Chipjack or
Skillwires card. Deploy both on visiting Runner at no cost (Runner loses
Essence as normal).

Theres always just plain LEARNING a skill. IN SR, you can just spend
Karma on that.
How's about:

HITTING THE BOOKS (special, no stinger), 0¥.
Sacrifice 5 reputation to permentantly give one runner a single skill.
Only mages or shamans may learn Sorcery or Conjuring.

Mongoose

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