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Message no. 1
From: Fokker9202@***.com Fokker9202@***.com
Subject: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:09:40 EST
Does ANYONE out there know where to find this stuff on the net? I asked a
couple of days ago, and didnt get a response. I love to play SR:TCG, and I
would love to see the new ideas that are out there, I just dont know where to
find them.

Someone out there who knows where to find this info, please help me!!

Thanks,

--rich
Message no. 2
From: David Reis david.reis@*****.com
Subject: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:05:18 -0800
At 08:09 AM 3/27/99 EST, Fokker9202@***.com wrote:
>Does ANYONE out there know where to find this stuff on the net? I asked a
>couple of days ago, and didnt get a response. I love to play SR:TCG, and I
>would love to see the new ideas that are out there, I just dont know where to
>find them.
>
Matb has the HTML version on the web at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/amerind.htm

David

>--rich
>
>
>
>
Message no. 3
From: Fokker9202@***.com Fokker9202@***.com
Subject: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:09:40 EST
Does ANYONE out there know where to find this stuff on the net? I asked a
couple of days ago, and didnt get a response. I love to play SR:TCG, and I
would love to see the new ideas that are out there, I just dont know where to
find them.

Someone out there who knows where to find this info, please help me!!

Thanks,

--rich
Message no. 4
From: David Reis david.reis@*****.com
Subject: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:05:18 -0800
At 08:09 AM 3/27/99 EST, Fokker9202@***.com wrote:
>Does ANYONE out there know where to find this stuff on the net? I asked a
>couple of days ago, and didnt get a response. I love to play SR:TCG, and I
>would love to see the new ideas that are out there, I just dont know where to
>find them.
>
Matb has the HTML version on the web at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/amerind.htm

David

>--rich
>
>
>
>
Message no. 5
From: Christophe Huestis <chuestis@**********.NET>
Subject: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:58:05 -0400
This is my attempt to write some Amerindian cards. I have had some
experience with the native american culture through a couple of friends. I
have even been to several pow wow (tribal gatherings). Other than that I am
just guessing. Of course constructive criticism is always appreciated.=
Enjoy!


Specials
Peyote (the herb that Southwestern Indian Tribes were known to have smoked)
Special/Stinger 1 nuyen.
Play on an Amerindian runner. Roll D6 1-3 Runner mumbles something about
talking chickens, 4-5 Player is able to look at one random challenge, 6+
Player can look at target players hand for 5 seconds. No matter the result
Runner remains turned until end of next turn.
Flavor: Grandfather is that you….?

The Ancestors Gathering - Tribal Meeting (Instead of HQ but in the same
catagory) 4 nuyen. Turn Amerindian Runner and roll D6, +1 if last turn
Runner went on a successful shadowrun. 1-3 Runner is unable to gain favor
of the elders. 4 Runner must wait until next turn to see the elders. 6
Elders hear his story and bless him with courage. Runner now has +2/+1 to
threat rating till end of game. Runner or copies of that runner may not
visit the elders again or they will be reduced to 1/1 no matter what they
had before.

The Warrior’s Chant - Special/Stinger 0 nuyen.
May only play on of at the beginning of a Shadowrun, and at least four
Amerindian Runners must be participating. All Amerindians (including other
players) receive +2/+2 to threat rating until end of turn. If run is
unsuccessful, the Amerindians participating receive -1/-1 till end of game.=

Picture: Indians in full battle gear chanting and dancing around a fire.

Locations
The Fire Pit - Amerindian location. 4 nuyen. Only amerindians may turn to
visit this location. Trash a gear card that the turned runner is holding to
receive D6-1 healing. May only be used following runner vs. runner combat.
Runner unturns at end of the present turn.

Tribal Meeting - Amerindian location 2 nuyen. Turn Amerindian to visit.
Roll D6 1-3 no effect. 4-5 Get totem out of deck, show to other players and
put in your hand. 6+ Get a totem out of your deck and play on a shaman for=
free.
Christophe A. Huestis - chuestis@**********.net
"Believe in yourself and the world will be at your feet. You are the owner
of your future."
If you want to teach there are 2000 plus openings in North Carolina!!!
Message no. 6
From: "(Ryan Smith)" <SnakeIzBac@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:48:28 EDT
This is a Very interesting. I like the idea of Ameriaindian Expanison.
Message no. 7
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:54:23 PDT
Mass snippage

>>STORMCLAW / Shaman / 5¥
>>4/3. Amerindian/Human. Sorcery-2, Conjure-1. The first Totem
>>played on Stormclaw is free.
>>[An Indian with a wolf head dress looking up into a rainstorm.]
>
>> This is really powerfull. With no upkeep, this puts him hands and >>
feet above Sally Tsung, who is powerfull enough to begin with.
>
>'Swhat I thought, too.

I'm just curious... what makes this sooooo powerfull.
if your using a spirit you can't use your attack value. If you
use your attack value you cant control a spirit.

Sally is cool with the 2 sorcery and the 2 conjure.. but she is still
rather limited in what she can do at one time. She can only control 2
spirits... and while thats happening cant do anything with the hellblast
and fireball she is also holding. Just like roadrash who has a buffer
body and attack value. He can control two drones...( make them both
doberman patrol and say ouch) but then he cant shoot his nasty ruger
superwarhawk with apds ammo. Where is the real difference. Are people
that afraid of the sorcery/conjure skill combo. Maybe all mages and
shamans should have this skill combo... that way the true fear of the
mage might be installed in the shadowrun universe.

I think the "powerfull" aspect of the StormClaw runner and
Sally Tsung runner is the options the runner presents. The fact that
I can put spirts and spells and guns and armor and a bike on
the runner. You can do that too with any number of other runners in
the deck. Also razorguy type ork or troll that is in runner vs. runner
combat will kick the sally and StormClaw runners butt.

Maybe I'm just missing something here... and I will gladly check
the mirror for the D'oh thats painted on my forhead... but I don't get
it.

*** In ruling, the Sage attends to the heart, not the eye ***
*** - Tao ***


Donald Arganbright
Jayden Stormwalker


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 8
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:36:39 -0700
Donald Arganbright wrote:

> >>STORMCLAW / Shaman / 5¥
> >>4/3. Amerindian/Human. Sorcery-2, Conjure-1. The first Totem
> >>played on Stormclaw is free.
> >>[An Indian with a wolf head dress looking up into a rainstorm.]

> I'm just curious... what makes this sooooo powerfull.
> if your using a spirit you can't use your attack value. If you
> use your attack value you cant control a spirit.

That's all right: you don't need to. StormClaw can use a Sleep for the
first Challenge, and then two Spirits on the next two.

More importantly than game value, it walks all over Sally: the drop from
Sorcery-2 to Sorcery-1 is negligible (can't use Astral Sense --
whoooo). For a -1Y cost, no upkeep, and one higher Attack, that's not
an awful lot to give up. Add on to that the free Totem, and now you're
three or four yen ahead of her. Add on to that fringe benefits from
being Amerind, and you've left her behind in the distance.

> Maybe all mages and
> shamans should have this skill combo... that way the true fear of the
> mage might be installed in the shadowrun universe.

This is the sort of attitude I do *not* want this expansion to
represent. Go mages; but go balanced.


- Matt

------------------------------------
Quid gignitur ex hyaena et psittaco?
Animal uiribus ridendi in ioca sua eximum.

GridSec: SRCard / Freedonian Research Assistant
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 9
From: Norman McLeod <mcleodn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:54:05 -0400
>>>STORMCLAW / Shaman / 5¥
>>>4/3. Amerindian/Human. Sorcery-2, Conjure-1. The first Totem
>>>played on Stormclaw is free.
>>>[An Indian with a wolf head dress looking up into a rainstorm.]
>>
>>> This is really powerfull. With no upkeep, this puts him hands and >>
>feet above Sally Tsung, who is powerfull enough to begin with.
>>
>>'Swhat I thought, too.
>
>I'm just curious... what makes this sooooo powerfull.
>if your using a spirit you can't use your attack value. If you
>use your attack value you cant control a spirit.
>
>Sally is cool with the 2 sorcery and the 2 conjure.. but she is still
>rather limited in what she can do at one time. She can only control 2
>spirits... and while thats happening cant do anything with the hellblast
>and fireball she is also holding.

Ahhh, but attacking and combat are far from the most powerful abilities of
the Mage and Shaman. With Sally, you can combine them, and make them much
more powerful. Load Sally up with two Greater Elementals and two
Invisibilities, or a Hellblast, a Fireball, and two Ally Spirits, and she's
almost invincible, she can take most objectives by herself. The thing with
Sally is that she has an upkeep, a higher cost, and can't hold a totem. She
is also a prime runner. All of these things add up to making her harder to
gear up, keep in play, and make her BALANCED.

>Just like roadrash who has a buffer
>body and attack value. He can control two drones...( make them both
>doberman patrol and say ouch) but then he cant shoot his nasty ruger
>superwarhawk with apds ammo. Where is the real difference?

He can only comtrol 2 Drones. Sally can use four things at once, and
Stormcrow 3, but Stormcrow, but rather than the Disablilities on Sally
(Prime runner, upkeep, no totems), Stormcrow has a higher threat rating, a
lower cost, and gets a free Totem.

>Are people that afraid of the sorcery/conjure skill combo. Maybe all mages
and
>shamans should have this skill combo... that way the true fear of the
>mage might be installed in the shadowrun universe.

Maybe, but in the shadowrun Card game, which is very clearly different, the
makers wanted to make magic less powerful, so people would use the other
runners. It may have worked a little too well, but if mages were as powerful
as it sounds like they sound they are in the game, the CCG would lose much
of its variety and interest.

> I think the "powerfull" aspect of the StormClaw runner and
>Sally Tsung runner is the options the runner presents. The fact that
>I can put spirts and spells and guns and armor and a bike on
>the runner. You can do that too with any number of other runners in
>the deck. Also razorguy type ork or troll that is in runner vs. runner
>combat will kick the sally and StormClaw runners butt.

Once again the idea is game balance. I have no problem with Sally, because
the makers of the card very carefully made her not to powerfull, with a
fairly low threat rating, an upkeep, and high cost. Stormclaw has none of
these things, and all the same abilities (less one conjuring). Besides, in
Runner vs. Runner combat, Stormclaw and Sally can use their spirits, or
their Hellblast. If they use spirits, Razorback, or a troll will not even be
able to damage them. Stormclaw with a Hellblast can take out Torgo even if
you roll a 1.

All I would recommend, would be to a)raise the cost to 7Y or b)give him an
upkeep, something like that. I would also think about ditching the free
totem, but that wouldn't be nessecary.
Message no. 10
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:01:18 PDT
>Donald Arganbright wrote:
>
>> >>STORMCLAW / Shaman / 5¥
>> >>4/3. Amerindian/Human. Sorcery-2, Conjure-1. The first Totem
>> >>played on Stormclaw is free.
>> >>[An Indian with a wolf head dress looking up into a rainstorm.]
>
>> I'm just curious... what makes this sooooo powerfull.
>> if your using a spirit you can't use your attack value. If you
>> use your attack value you cant control a spirit.
>
>That's all right: you don't need to. StormClaw can use a Sleep for
>the first Challenge, and then two Spirits on the next two.
>
>More importantly than game value, it walks all over Sally: the drop
from Sorcery-2 to Sorcery-1 is negligible (can't use Astral Sense --
>whoooo). For a -1Y cost, no upkeep, and one higher Attack, that's >not
an awful lot to give up. Add on to that the free Totem, and now you're
three or four yen ahead of her. Add on to that fringe benefits from
being Amerind, and you've left her behind in the distance.
>
>> Maybe all mages and shamans should have this skill combo... that
>>way the true fear of the mage might be installed in the shadowrun
>>universe.
>
>This is the sort of attitude I do *not* want this expansion to
>represent. Go mages; but go balanced.
>
I can see your point... and its a good one. And after a little
thought the cost should go up some. But as with all expansions if we
are limited to making runners that can only be as buff or balanced as
the runners that are already present then it makes expansions kinda hard
to create since you need to stay under an already specified and sort of
limited "ceiling". Btw... that conjure-1 and sorcery-2 so no ally
spirit :) Thanks for the thwak I can now see the light... or are they
stars :)


*** In ruling, the Sage attends to the heart, not the eye ***
*** - Tao ***


Donald Arganbright
Jayden Stormwalker


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 11
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:07:00 -0500
>thought the cost should go up some. But as with all expansions if we
>are limited to making runners that can only be as buff or balanced as
>the runners that are already present then it makes expansions kinda hard
>to create since you need to stay under an already specified and sort of
>limited "ceiling".

If you make new runners more buff than old runners, the it makes all the
old runners obsolete. Why use the old ones when you can use the new?
All new cards should use the same paradigm used by the old cards.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:16:06 PDT
>>>>STORMCLAW / Shaman / 5¥
>>>>4/3. Amerindian/Human. Sorcery-2, Conjure-1. The first Totem
>>>>played on Stormclaw is free.
>>>>[An Indian with a wolf head dress looking up into a rainstorm.]
>>>
>>>This is really powerfull. With no upkeep, this puts him hands and
>>>feet above Sally Tsung, who is powerfull enough to begin with.

>>Sally is cool with the 2 sorcery and the 2 conjure.. but she is
>>still rather limited in what she can do at one time. She can only
>>control 2 spirits... and while thats happening cant do anything with
>>the hellblast and fireball she is also holding.
>
>Ahhh, but attacking and combat are far from the most powerful
>abilities of the Mage and Shaman. With Sally, you can combine them,
>and make them much more powerful. Load Sally up with two Greater
>Elementals and two Invisibilities, or a Hellblast, a Fireball, and >two
Ally Spirits, and she's almost invincible, she can take most >objectives
by herself. The thing with Sally is that she has an >upkeep, a higher
cost, and can't hold a totem. She is also a prime >runner. All of these
things add up to making her harder to gear up, >keep in play, and make
her BALANCED.

I can see your point... but I would never put a greater elemental on a
runner with less than 4 body. I also thought that her deployment cost
was lower than it is. For some reason 5/1 stuck in my head. Also
sticking a hell blast on a mage with a 3 body or less is kinda bad.

>>Just like roadrash who has a buffer
>>body and attack value. He can control two drones...( make them both
>>doberman patrol and say ouch) but then he cant shoot his nasty ruger
>>superwarhawk with apds ammo. Where is the real difference?
>
>He can only comtrol 2 Drones. Sally can use four things at once, and
>Stormcrow 3, but Stormcrow, but rather than the Disablilities on Sally
(Prime runner, upkeep, no totems), Stormcrow has a higher threat rating,
a lower cost, and gets a free Totem.

I was under the impression that once a rigger launches his drones or a
shaman uses his spirits that they can no longer use any other "attack"
values for the rest of the run. I didn't think that they could turn off
their drones and spirits on any given challenge... unless its an indoor
challenge and its a nature spirit or outdoor drone. Did that make
sense?


>>Also razorguy type ork or troll that is in runner vs. runner
>>combat will kick the sally and StormClaw runners butt.
>
>Besides, in Runner vs. Runner combat, Stormclaw and Sally can use
>their spirits, or their Hellblast. If they use spirits, Razorback, or
>a troll will not even be able to damage them. Stormclaw with a
>Hellblast can take out Torgo even if you roll a 1.

I also thought that hellblast just does two armor piercing damage to all
runners on the table. How does that kill torgo with a body of 9. Just
wondering. All though I see your point and I am a changed man...
mostly, but only my doctor knows for sure. Anyway I would like to thank
all those out there for their advise.


*** In ruling, the Sage attends to the heart, not the eye ***
*** - Tao ***


Donald Arganbright
Jayden Stormwalker


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:29:29 PDT
>>thought the cost should go up some. But as with all expansions if
>>we are limited to making runners that can only be as buff or
>>balanced as the runners that are already present then it makes
>>expansions kinda hard to create since you need to stay under an
>>already specified and sort of limited "ceiling".
>
>If you make new runners more buff than old runners, the it makes all
the old runners obsolete. Why use the old ones when you can use the
new? All new cards should use the same paradigm used by the old cards.

There will always be the core cards that get used in all decks from now
and in X years after the Xth expansion from the limited edition set.
Because they are so versitile, or cheap, or whatever. And in X years
when stomper or thrash is no longer being printed I'm glad that I now
posess 11 of them. Bigger and better and new must happen, or the game
will become stale and uninteresting. I personally wouldn't spend 65
bucks on a box of a new expansion that consists of the exact same cards
I already own, but use different names. I'm not saying that every new
card that comes out has to be badder than any other previous card. But
ideas should be fresh... not just rehasing old concepts.... M:tg loves
doing that.

Change is good, but slowly. Keep the gamers intrest, but don't bog down
with too many new radicle cards, or worse... too many new cards that
don't do anything to aid already existing decks Ie.. M:tg.

*** In ruling, the Sage attends to the heart, not the eye ***
*** - Tao ***


Donald Arganbright
Jayden Stormwalker


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 14
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:25:47 -0500
>>If you make new runners more buff than old runners, the it makes all
>the old runners obsolete. Why use the old ones when you can use the
>new? All new cards should use the same paradigm used by the old cards.
>posess 11 of them. Bigger and better and new must happen, or the game
>will become stale and uninteresting.

Perhaps I'm not making my point clear.
I'm not saying that future expansions should simply use the same
skills/body/threat/specials as the old runners. I'm simply saying that
the cost of the card should be commesurate with it's ability.
Let's just say that in some fictional future expansion, they come up
with a runner who is similar in many aspects to Lord Torgo. However,
this runner costs only 7 instead of the 9/2 that Torgo costs. Why would
you *ever* use Lord Torgo? Hint: you wouldn't.
This new Amerindian expansion that is showing up on the list introduces
new cards, abilities, skills, etc that are not in the old sets. That's all
well
and cool. But just because they are new, doesn't mean that they should
*overpower* any particular runner from the old sets who possesses similar
skills, etc.
This is what I'm talking about.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: "Bourgault, Patrick" <pbourgau@***.CA>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:58:00 PDT
>>If you make new runners more buff than old runners, the it makes all
>the old runners obsolete. Why use the old ones when you can use the
>new? All new cards should use the same paradigm used by the old cards.
>posess 11 of them. Bigger and better and new must happen, or the game
>will become stale and uninteresting.

Perhaps I'm not making my point clear.
I'm not saying that future expansions should simply use the same
skills/body/threat/specials as the old runners. I'm simply saying that
the cost of the card should be commesurate with it's ability.
Let's just say that in some fictional future expansion, they come up
with a runner who is similar in many aspects to Lord Torgo. However,
this runner costs only 7 instead of the 9/2 that Torgo costs. Why would
you *ever* use Lord Torgo? Hint: you wouldn't.
This new Amerindian expansion that is showing up on the list introduces
new cards, abilities, skills, etc that are not in the old sets. That's
all
well
and cool. But just because they are new, doesn't mean that they should
*overpower* any particular runner from the old sets who possesses similar
skills, etc.
This is what I'm talking about.

You're right about that. New sets should bring new ideas. For instance,
I like the concept of UW but personally, I think the majority of the
runners suck just because too much of them don't have skills. On the
other side, I like what they add to them. You may think about Wildfire
with his armor bonus per spell, Duncan who can trash a Street Challenge,
or even Holmes who can give Hermit and he's the only Ork with Social.

Here's a new card that could come in handy :

Name : Cleaning up the Dumsters (unless you got a better idea...)
Type : Stinger
Cost : 5
Note : Unique. This card replaces your Credstick Phase. Complete your
hand with your discard pile. You must fill your hand until you have
seven cards or your discard pile is empty. Before putting the cards in
your hand, show them to your opponents. Frag Cleaning up the Dumsters
after use.

If you think the cost is low well, think that you won't get your 4 nuyens
plus Fame this turn. So the card really cost 9+. Since most players
fill their hand when its down to three cards (average), this card still
saves you 10 nuyens if you add used Squatter. The advantage of Squatter
?? You can use him more than seven times. Comments are accepted and if
you want to add it to the Amerindian Expansion, feel free to do so.
Message no. 16
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:22:39 -0500
>Name : Cleaning up the Dumsters (unless you got a better idea...)
>Type : Stinger
>Cost : 5
>Note : Unique. This card replaces your Credstick Phase. Complete your
>hand with your discard pile. You must fill your hand until you have
>seven cards or your discard pile is empty. Before putting the cards in
>your hand, show them to your opponents. Frag Cleaning up the Dumsters
>after use.

Umm, what?!?
During your credstick phase, you can already fill up your hand to 7 cards
if you don't get paid. Why would you want to not get paid *and* pay 5
nuyen just to fill up your hand to 7 cards *and* show all those cards to
your opponents?
It just doesn't make any sense.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: Sorrow <sorrow@*******.ORG>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:30:04 -0500
>>Note : Unique. This card replaces your Credstick Phase. Complete your
>>hand with your discard pile.
>Umm, what?!?
>During your credstick phase, you can already fill up your hand to 7 cards
>if you don't get paid.

Ok, /me is a retard. *Discard* pile, not draw pile. Duh.
Ignore me.
That is all.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: "(Ryan Smith)" <SnakeIzBac@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:38:49 EDT
Okay.. I am relativley new to the game but why hasn't there been a card
developed that makes your oponent discard his whole hand? I know you can draw
back up your next turn, but this would be effective espically if he is holding
some powerful cards. or maybe not so powerful cards. If there is such a card
i haven't seen it yet. Also, i am not 100% sure of everything quite yet i
have only been playing for a few weeks.
Message no. 19
From: "Bourgault, Patrick" <pbourgau@***.CA>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:56:00 PDT
>Name : Cleaning up the Dumsters (unless you got a better idea...)
>Type : Stinger
>Cost : 5
>Note : Unique. This card replaces your Credstick Phase. Complete your
>hand with your discard pile. You must fill your hand until you have
>seven cards or your discard pile is empty. Before putting the cards in
>your hand, show them to your opponents. Frag Cleaning up the Dumsters
>after use.

Umm, what?!?
During your credstick phase, you can already fill up your hand to 7 cards
if you don't get paid. Why would you want to not get paid *and* pay 5
nuyen just to fill up your hand to 7 cards *and* show all those cards to
your opponents?
It just doesn't make any sense.

Those cards are drawn from your *trash* pile, not your draw pile. It's a
way to regain some lost cards. Sorry if I made some mistakes.
Message no. 20
From: Noah Overton <NOAH_OVERTON@*************.OM.HP.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:22:21 -0700
>Name : Cleaning up the Dumsters (unless you got a better idea...)
>Type : Stinger
>Cost : 5
>Note : Unique. This card replaces your Credstick Phase. Complete
your >hand with your discard pile. You must fill your hand until you
have >seven cards or your discard pile is empty. Before putting the
cards in >your hand, show them to your opponents. Frag Cleaning up
the Dumsters >after use.

Umm, what?!?
During your credstick phase, you can already fill up your hand to 7
cards if you don't get paid. Why would you want to not get paid *and*
pay 5 nuyen just to fill up your hand to 7 cards *and* show all those
cards to your opponents?
It just doesn't make any sense.

Sorrow

man are you missing the point. if you get to fill your hand from you
discard pile. you get what you want, specails, challenges, runners,
yes i know squatter can do this but he cant pull specails. i like it alot
as a card and i know that i would probly have it in any deck i built.

Noah


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Author: Non-HP-sorrow (sorrow@*******.ORG) at HP-PaloAlto,mimegw2
Date: 7/7/98 12:22 PM


>Name : Cleaning up the Dumsters (unless you got a better idea...) >Type :
Stinger
>Cost : 5
>Note : Unique. This card replaces your Credstick Phase. Complete your
>hand with your discard pile. You must fill your hand until you have
>seven cards or your discard pile is empty. Before putting the cards in
>your hand, show them to your opponents. Frag Cleaning up the Dumsters
>after use.

Umm, what?!?
During your credstick phase, you can already fill up your hand to 7 cards
if you don't get paid. Why would you want to not get paid *and* pay 5
nuyen just to fill up your hand to 7 cards *and* show all those cards to
your opponents?
It just doesn't make any sense.

Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 21
From: Norman McLeod <mcleodn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:19:41 -0400
>>>thought the cost should go up some. But as with all expansions if
>>>we are limited to making runners that can only be as buff or
>>>balanced as the runners that are already present then it makes
>>>expansions kinda hard to create since you need to stay under an
>>>already specified and sort of limited "ceiling".
>>
>>If you make new runners more buff than old runners, the it makes all
>the old runners obsolete. Why use the old ones when you can use the
>new? All new cards should use the same paradigm used by the old cards.

The idea is to make runners of the same power as the old ones, but still
different and new, with new abilities and combinations of abilities, not new
runners who are just more/less/equally powerfull versions of runners that
already exist. Look at underworld. All of the cards fit those criteria.
Message no. 22
From: Wayne Shelden <angel_of_wrath@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:14:43 -0500
>>Name : Cleaning up the Dumsters (unless you got a better idea...)
<snip>

>Umm, what?!?
>During your credstick phase, you can already fill up your hand to 7
>cards >if you don't get paid. Why would you want to not get paid *and*
pay 5
>nuyen just to fill up your hand to 7 cards *and* show all those cards
>to your opponents?
>It just doesn't make any sense.
>Sorrow

But you would use it if you trashed your one Torgo, of you knew the
card(s) you want right now are in your trash pile. Card combinations
play a big part in the game.

Wayne

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Message no. 23
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian Expansion
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:34:24 -0700
> I was under the impression that once a rigger launches his drones or a
> shaman uses his spirits that they can no longer use any other "attack"
> values for the rest of the run. I didn't think that they could turn off
> their drones and spirits on any given challenge... unless its an indoor
> challenge and its a nature spirit or outdoor drone. Did that make
> sense?

Drones, once activated, stay present until the end of the shadowrun
(unless it's an Outdoor Drone at an Indoor Challenge, and vice versa).
I've usually played that if Drones are activated for Runner-vs-Runner
combat before the shadowrun phase, they aren't able to be used (since
they've been turned). Have to check the RBT on that one, though.

> I also thought that hellblast just does two armor piercing damage to all
> runners on the table. How does that kill torgo with a body of 9.

Hellblast does 2 armor-piercing damage to all *present* Runners; if,
say, Stormclaw goes toe-to-toe with LT, he does the 2AP followed by the
the Hellblast's D6+8 attack value, more than plenty to kill Torgo on a
miniml roll.


- Matt

------------------------------------
Quid gignitur ex hyaena et psittaco?
Animal uiribus ridendi in ioca sua eximum.

GridSec: SRCard / Freedonian Research Assistant
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 24
From: Hansen <hansen@********.COM.SG>
Subject: Amerindian expansion
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:46:20 +0800
I've been very quiet recently... So I've decided to submit a card for the
Amerindian Expansion that has been just been the latest craze on the
list.... I've not played for about a month so if anything is unclear, tell
me. I'll clarify it.....

Card Name : Vision Quest
Card Type : Objective
Objective Points : 0
Card Text : You may only run on this objective with a mage or shaman. Only 1
challenge may be placed on this objective. For each point of sorcery or
conjuring of the team possesses when this objective is scored, gain 2
objective points.
Message no. 25
From: "(Ryan Smith)" <SnakeIzBac@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian expansion
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:22:04 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-10 12:47:09 EDT, you write:

<< Card Text : You may only run on this objective with a mage or shaman. Only
1
challenge may be placed on this objective. For each point of sorcery or
conjuring of the team possesses when this objective is scored, gain 2
objective points. >>

This card is too powerful for no casting cost.
Message no. 26
From: Hansen <hansen@********.COM.SG>
Subject: Re: Amerindian expansion
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:28:12 +0800
><< Card Text : You may only run on this objective with a mage or shaman.
Only
>1
> challenge may be placed on this objective. For each point of sorcery or
> conjuring of the team possesses when this objective is scored, gain 2
> objective points. >>
>
>This card is too powerful for no casting cost.


Really, I was worried it'd be too weak... I mean you can only send A (one,
numero uno) mage or shaman....
Message no. 27
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian expansion
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:28:24 PDT
>
><< Card Text : You may only run on this objective with a mage or
>shaman. Only 1 challenge may be placed on this objective. For each
>point of sorcery >or conjuring of the team possesses when this
>objective is scored, >gain 2 objective points. >>

>This card is too powerful for no casting cost.

The Card is an Objective... they never have deploment costs. I
actually like the card, But I play a mage/shaman deck. :)

*** In ruling, the Sage attends to the heart, not the eye ***
*** - Tao ***


Donald Arganbright
Jayden Stormwalker


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Message no. 28
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian expansion
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:45:57 PDT
Hi,

>I've been very quiet recently... So I've decided to submit a card for
the
>Amerindian Expansion that has been just been the latest craze on the
>list.... I've not played for about a month so if anything is unclear,
tell
>me. I'll clarify it.....
>
>Card Name : Vision Quest
>Card Type : Objective
>Objective Points : 0
>Card Text : You may only run on this objective with a mage or shaman.
>Only 1 challenge may be placed on this objective. For each point of
>sorcery or conjuring of the team possesses when this objective is
>scored, gain 2 objective points.
>
you might want to reword it like this. Just clarification

Card Name : Vision Quest
Card Type : Objective
Reputation Award : 0
Card Text : Only 1 challange may be deployed to defend Vision Quest.
Only Shaman and Mage runners may make a Shadowrun against
Vision Quest.
Bonus : 2 Reputation points for every point of conjure and sorcery
Shadowrunning team possess at end of Shadowrun.

Just a suggestion.

*** In ruling, the Sage attends to the heart, not the eye ***
*** - Tao ***


Donald Arganbright
Jayden Stormwalker


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Message no. 29
From: "Bourgault, Patrick" <pbourgau@***.CA>
Subject: Re: Amerindian expansion
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:47:00 PDT
I've been very quiet recently... So I've decided to submit a card for the
Amerindian Expansion that has been just been the latest craze on the
list.... I've not played for about a month so if anything is unclear,
tell
me. I'll clarify it.....

Card Name : Vision Quest
Card Type : Objective
Objective Points : 0
Card Text : You may only run on this objective with a mage or shaman.
Only 1
challenge may be placed on this objective. For each point of sorcery or
conjuring of the team possesses when this objective is scored, gain 2
objective points.


Well, at best, you can make 38 rep. points (Sally Tsung for 4 plus 5
other runners with 3 points of Conjure/Sorcery), but I'd say that this
objective will be faced by 6 runners with each 1 points of
Sorcery/Conjure, for a total of 12 rep. points. I'd say this card is
fair enough. Of course, this average of skill doesn't apply to
mage/shaman oriented decks.
Message no. 30
From: cyberbunny <cyberbunny@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian expansion
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:49:10 -0400
ITS AN OBJECTIVE, there is no "deployment" cost.

-----Original Message-----
From: (Ryan Smith) <SnakeIzBac@***.COM>
To: SRCARD@********.ITRIBE.NET <SRCARD@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Amerindian expansion


In a message dated 98-07-10 12:47:09 EDT, you write:

<< Card Text : You may only run on this objective with a mage or shaman.
Only
1
challenge may be placed on this objective. For each point of sorcery or
conjuring of the team possesses when this objective is scored, gain 2
objective points. >>

This card is too powerful for no casting cost.
Message no. 31
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Amerindian expansion
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:43:35 -0700
Hansen wrote:

> Card Name : Vision Quest
> Card Type : Objective
> Objective Points : 0
> Card Text : You may only run on this objective with a mage or shaman.
> Only 1 challenge may be placed on this objective. For each point of
> sorcery or conjuring of the team possesses when this objective is
> scored, gain 2 objective points.

A couple comments.

a) I like it. A lot. It definitely changes the 'feel' of
shadowrunning, and captures what a Vision Quest should be pretty well.

b) Only one Challenge, or only one Challenge in each player's Objective
stack? No difference, except in multi-player.

c) Way low Reputation. Which is pretty good, since you have to be
running the right deck to even contemplate it, but, if done as a Vision
Quest (an individual, not a team effort) you'd have on average two, and
at best 4 (before Moment of Clarity/Outstanding Performance) points, or
four to eight Reputation gained. That seems about right, except as a
Mage player I'd rather gain Rep quicker (only so long before the
Riots!), which means other Objectives look tastier. Some alternative
compensation seems in line.

d) There already is a Vision Quest in AEX, but that's all right. I'd
rather incorporate this one (in some form) and rename the existing card.


- Matt

------------------------------------
Quid gignitur ex hyaena et psittaco?
Animal uiribus ridendi in ioca sua eximum.

GridSec: SRCard / Freedonian Research Assistant
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm

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Thwap!