Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	"Keith R. Chenoweth" <kchenwth@*****.NET>
Subject:	Why trades but not auctions?
Date:	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:13:40 -0500

Message no. 1 Can someone in list admin please explain the logic behind the decision to
not let auctions be held on the list? There seems to me to be very little
distinction between posting a want list and an auction list every few days,
as long as the guideline of responding to each PRIVATELY is met.

I think I recall someone mentioning something about the difference of money
changing hands, but that doesn't hold up- either way, something of value is
being sent out with the risk of fraud, whether it's a check or a card with
value. The list itself would be equally liable (or more realistically, not
liable) in both cases. Also, someone posted that it is wastes bandwidth-
how exactly? Consider that anything you are not personally interested in
can be considered a waste, to you. However, judging by the bids, many of us
find the current auction interesting. In fact much, much more space has
been used protesting the auctions than the auctions themselves.

Admittedly, I am biased by having some bids on Dennis' current auction. I
don't feel, however, that his daily updates to the list are excessive,
off-topic, inflammatory, or any other reason I can think of to want to
exclude them from the list.

My 2 cents,
Keith

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Why trades but not auctions?
Date:	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:05:40 -0700

Message no. 2 ---"Keith R. Chenoweth" <kchenwth@*****.NET> wrote:
>
> Can someone in list admin please explain the logic behind the decision to
> not let auctions be held on the list? There seems to me to be very little
> distinction between posting a want list and an auction list every few days,
> as long as the guideline of responding to each PRIVATELY is met.

iTribe, the people kind enough to host the ShadowRN and SRCard lists are using
a software licensed for free, non-commercial, use. From the beginning of
SRCard, and even longer on ShadowRN, a staunch position has been taken against
the advertising and sale of anything on the lists because of this licensing
arrangement.

Trading on SRCard is allowed, as their is no monetary involvement, and thus
nothing gets into an icky grey area for iTribe. From the first week of SRCard
hitting the list I stepped in a put a halt to card sale lists being posted, as
prices were given and money asked for. The Aution updates fall into the same
form and category, and as such need to be handled off list. Posting a message
saying "The latest Auction update is now available, email me privately for
prices and standings." would have been ok, but prices and dollar amounts kept
being posted, even after two specific warnings.

This is all in the FAQ, no big suprises.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
SRTCG trade lists last updated 4/9/98
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: Why trades but not auctions?
Date:	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:18:50 -0600

Message no. 3 At 13:13 19/07/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Can someone in list admin please explain the logic behind the decision to
>not let auctions be held on the list? There seems to me to be very little
[...]

>I think I recall someone mentioning something about the difference of money
>changing hands, but that doesn't hold up- either way, something of value is
>being sent out with the risk of fraud, whether it's a check or a card with
>value. The list itself would be equally liable (or more realistically, not
>liable) in both cases.

Boy, I just love cut'n'paste.

Taken directly from Dvixen's post two nights ago:
"The reason Auction postings to the list are being discouraged, is that the
Shadowrun lists run on a software intended for no-profit use. Since an
Auction is intended for profit, unlike trades, this gets the listowners and
the hosts at iTribe in a bit of a sticky spot. I'm sure in the interest of
keeping the lists running, we'd like this not to happen."

The mailing lists at iTribe have *always* had a "No selling stuff" policy,
whether it be "I want to unload a few SR RPG books" or "I'm leaving the
list and selling my computer, anyone want my old junker?". It's going to
stay that way.

> Also, someone posted that it is wastes bandwidth-
>how exactly?

The most recent auction post was HUGE, listing a whole pile of cards, and
then names and email addresses after them, as opposed to just a list of cards.

>Admittedly, I am biased by having some bids on Dennis' current auction. I
>don't feel, however, that his daily updates to the list are excessive,
>off-topic, inflammatory, or any other reason I can think of to want to
>exclude them from the list.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but as I've pointed out several times in
the past, rec.games.trading-card.marketplace.misc would be the appropriate
place for auction posts, as the charter for that group includes auctions.
Post a short message here saying "I just posted my auction to
rec.games.trading-card.marketplace.misc, the subject is [SR] Bob Smith's
All Rare Auction, check it out if you're interested". Then the interested
parties can either fire up their newsreader and check it out, or easily
search DejaNews and pick up the post.

As per Loki's statement earlier, further postings on the auction topic will
result in unsubscription. You want to debate, you all know my email address.

-Adam J
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Why trades but not auctions?
Date:	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:41:29 -0400

Message no. 4 [SNIP stuff about rec.games.market.selling.drek.whatever]

I would also like to add that if you want an even EASIER method (as far as
getting people to check out your post) would be to make a web page with
auction stuff on it. Then just mail the list saying "Latest Auction Info
is at www.buymycards.com"; or whatever.

Guys, I suggest the few (and there are only a few) of you getting all upset
about this to step back a minute and take a deep breath, and relax. It's
just a mailing list about a game. The rules exist for a reason, and most
have been here longer than any of us (Including the current Admins). There
are a million different ways to deal with and work around certain rules.
These include things like web pages and private e-mail. However, the one
method that is sure to get the WRONG results is to bitch and moan here.

If it's something that's a serious problem, yes, it will get dealt with.
The whole rule about public trading was enacted because a lot of people
wrote the Admins (as well as the list) about it. That information is
really only relavant to the Two people trading (and possibly one or two
others who are also interested in the same card). For everyone else it was
junk mail to be deleted. So we made it a rule that trades whould be made
private, though trade lists could be posted.

THEN people started breaking this rule. After further petitioning the
Admins about this, the three strikes rule was enacted, basically saying you
get three warnings about screw up, cause everyone makes mistakes, and then
your off. Unfortunately, some people apparently abused that and took
advantage of the fact that Loki has severe time constraints lately and
wasn;t really enforcing the rules. More people wrote Loki and Crew saying
:Why is this junk cluttering up my mailbox? Please do something!"

Enter Adam. Adam is the main list Admin on Shadowrn, the RPG mailing list,
as well as the owner and head Op of #Shadowrun, the IRC channel for SR.
Adam also has a little more time on his hands than Loki right now, as well
as is familiar with fun procedures like unsubscribing and banning people
from the Listserv software.

Adam looked at the list of current complaints and enacted a One Warning
rule. One warning, and then your out. You can resubscribe, but don't
screw up again or you could get banned.

So then what happened? A few people start throwing a fit about high
handedness. Well, sorry guys. You're in the minority, big time. The fact
of the matter is, while there are maybe 20 Vocal people on the list who
post regularly, there are 200 subscribers. And of these 200 Subscribers,
many of them are List Vets who know that when they have a complaint, the
list is not the best place to air their grievance, nor is ranting and
frothing at the mouth the best way to make their point. Mail Loki, Dvixen,
Matb, Adam, or any of the other Admins and make your point politely and
intelligently, and it will be considered. If They get 25 or 30 e-mails
about this, then there's definately a big problem.

But one or two loud people ranting on the list doesn;t mean there's a
problem in general. It means there's one or two problems that get warned,
and then are dealt with.

<shrug>

Rule are rules people. Go with it and have fun. :]

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
=======================================================

"We come from Stucco Village, where we bake bread
and play tether ball all day!"
-- A really weird scene from Trinity, the 3 AM version

From:	Felix Hoefert <FHoefert@********.DE>
Subject:	Re: Why trades but not auctions?
Date:	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:09:04 +0200

Message no. 5 Bull wrote:

[snip]
> Guys, I suggest the few (and there are only a few) of you getting all upset
> about this to step back a minute and take a deep breath, and relax. It's
> just a mailing list about a game.
[snip]

Game? What game? I�m a hardcore Shadowrunner - I don�t even turn on the
light at night. ;P ---Felix

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