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Message no. 1
From: Jeroen de Wijn <J.Wijn@*********.NL>
Subject: A Question and stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:56:00 +0100
Hello all,

Well, we're really building a solid foundation here in Amsterdam, and
the decks begin to diversify.
Main themes played at this moment:
- Elves magic Shamans/Mages.
- Riggers, Rockers and hard-hitters.
- Deckers, Rockers and hard-hitters.

I personally have finally constructed a deck that wins most of the time,
a bit of a 'denial' deck (remember those, kidz? ;-)
I play with 25 specials: Wrong way, Wild Goose Chase, No way out,
Luck o'the Irish, Loaded dice, Blindsided, Deja Vu, GAQ etc.
I either prevent my opponents from scoring the points, or I
put their runners in the meat-grinder using No Way Out and Blindsided.
I typically have 5-6 specials in my hand, so I dictate the outcome in
most situations.
Most heard during games I play is my outcry: _Wow I love this deck!_
For runners I use dwarves with a few weapons and lots of skills.
And I use pumpable or hard-hitting Challenges, so I can finish
an oponent off with a Riot.
My favorite Challenge: Elite Security Mage. I have 3 of them, and they work
Soooo well.. Who cares about fragging your top card when you can send
back not only the most important shadowrunner, but in the process kill
off the rest of the team as well, without them able to sleaze or defeat.

My question is about Elite Security Mage:
Can you use the special ability of the Challenge even if they get sleazed?

Have fun,
me.
If at first you don't succeed, to hell with it. Too much damn trouble.
Message no. 2
From: Forrest <eness@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:17:50 -0700
---Jeroen de Wijn <J.Wijn@*********.NL> wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> My question is about Elite Security Mage:
> Can you use the special ability of the Challenge even if they get
sleazed?
>

My first reaction would be to say once they are sleazed then they go
away so that's that. However, in the context of the previous
conversation regarding "timing" of sleazing and GAQS, that makes this
special ability useless. There's always got to be some sort of
problem I guess... :-)

This may get messy but how about this: The ability may be used, but
not in an attempt to remove a runner that would otherwise allow Elite
Security Mage to be sleazed. (For example, I have Stilleto and Sally
Tsung on a run. I encounter ESM and meet the sleaze requirements so
they are bypassed. The owner of that challenge may now choose to frag
the top card to send Sally home. I now have to decide whether or not
to continue the run with Stilleto alone.) So essentially ESM has a
GAQS built in.

That's simple enough, but now for the "messy" part. Can ESM be used
by the owner on another player running against another objective (one
that ESM isn't on)? If so I assume you have to expose it, once you do
though does it remain upright, or is it turned face down again? Also,
can ESM be used during one of your runs on your own runners? This
comes back to the question of what is a target.

Personally I feel a target should be anything of that type in play. I
very much doubt that this will work for tournaments, but for friendly
play it can make for much more interesting games :-)

Forrest
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Message no. 3
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:32:59 -0700
> My question is about Elite Security Mage:
> Can you use the special ability of the Challenge even if they get sleazed?

A definite _no_. First you reveal the Challenge, then you see if it can
be sleazed (and who's going to decide -not- to sleaze a challenge?
Well, the Rep-boosters and Kamikaze Run, maybe). Only if it's unsleazed
do you have to worry about combat or special effects.
Message no. 4
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:23:05 -0700
---Forrest wrote:
>
> ---Jeroen de Wijn <J.Wijn@*********.NL> wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > My question is about Elite Security Mage:
> > Can you use the special ability of the Challenge even if they get
> sleazed?
> >
>
> My first reaction would be to say once they are sleazed then they go
> away so that's that. However, in the context of the previous
> conversation regarding "timing" of sleazing and GAQS, that makes this
> special ability useless. There's always got to be some sort of
> problem I guess... :-)
>
> This may get messy but how about this: The ability may be used, but
> not in an attempt to remove a runner that would otherwise allow Elite
> Security Mage to be sleazed. (For example, I have Stilleto and Sally
> Tsung on a run. I encounter ESM and meet the sleaze requirements so
> they are bypassed. The owner of that challenge may now choose to
frag
> the top card to send Sally home. I now have to decide whether or not
> to continue the run with Stilleto alone.) So essentially ESM has a
> GAQS built in.
>
> That's simple enough, but now for the "messy" part. Can ESM be used
> by the owner on another player running against another objective (one
> that ESM isn't on)?

Elite Security Mage
Type: Challenge
Description: (Indoor/Personnel)
Notes: 3¥: +3/+3 (A+1) until end of turn. Once per shadowrun, owner of
Elite Security Mage may frag the top card of his draw pile to
immediately send target Runner to Safehouse. Sleaze: Stealth,
Sorcery-2. 5/5 (A1).

I'd say no. My understanding from the card text is that the ESM's
special may be used to affect a Runner on a shadowrun the ESM is
present on. Besides, challenges may only affect a Runner(s) while
they're revealed. Except for very special cases, a challenge is only
turned over and revealed when the runners are present to encounter it.
According to the rule book thingy (pg 60): "If the Runners cannot
defeat the challenge, the shadowrun is over. Turn the Challenge face
down in it's original position in the Challenge stack."

In other words, even though it's been encountered and the player knows
what the cards is, the Challenge does not stay there face up and
active. It is not "revealed" until the Runners come around and
encounter it again. Again, except for special cards like those that
move onto the objective, I don't believe a Challenge can affect the
game except during the time it's "revealed."

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
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Message no. 5
From: Robert Lamb <roblamb@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:53:12 -0700
<<Snip>>

Matt said:

> A definite _no_. First you reveal the Challenge, then you see if it
> can
> be sleazed (and who's going to decide -not- to sleaze a challenge?
> Well, the Rep-boosters and Kamikaze Run, maybe). Only if it's
> unsleazed
> do you have to worry about combat or special effects.
>
<<Snip>>
So, could you decide to not sleaze a challenge?
Message no. 6
From: Forrest <eness@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:02:21 -0700
---Robert Lamb <roblamb@*********.COM> wrote:
>
> <<Snip>>
>
> Matt said:
>
> > A definite _no_. First you reveal the Challenge, then you see if
it
> > can
> > be sleazed (and who's going to decide -not- to sleaze a challenge?
> > Well, the Rep-boosters and Kamikaze Run, maybe). Only if it's
> > unsleazed
> > do you have to worry about combat or special effects.
> >
> <<Snip>>
> So, could you decide to not sleaze a challenge?
>

From the wording in the online rule book:

"Sleazing Challenge Cards

The owner of the Challenge stack reveals the Challenge on the top of
the stack and reads the sleaze requirement aloud. If any Runner or
combination of Runners on the Runner team meets the sleaze
requirement, the Challenge is sleazed-the Runners sneak past the
Challenge without triggering the alarm. Trash sleazed Challenge cards.
If a Challenge has no sleaze requirement, it cannot be sleazed. In
that case, follow the instructions on the card."

I would say that you don't have the choice. In fact I can't really
think of a situation off the top of my head in which you would not
want to sleaze something (minus what was mentioned above of course :-)
). Anyone have any creative ideas on why you wouldn't want to sleaze
a challenge?

Forrest
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Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:19:48 +0000
> ). Anyone have any creative ideas on why you wouldn't want to sleaze
> a challenge?

Future cards that let you redirect damage or reverse it (ala Reverse
Damage in M:tg)

No cards I can think of now. Except to trash a Prime runner causing
you upkeep troubles.

BTW, did everyone know that you can voluntarily discard as much as
you wanted? My opponent did that last time to bring Lord Torgo out
a second time in only a few rounds. (also got his Riots and Drivebys
back)
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 8
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:23:41 -0400
Forrest[SMTP:eness@**********.COM] wrote:
> > So, could you decide to not sleaze a challenge?
>
> I would say that you don't have the choice. In fact I can't really
> think of a situation off the top of my head in which you would not
> want to sleaze something (minus what was mentioned above of course :-)
> ). Anyone have any creative ideas on why you wouldn't want to sleaze
> a challenge?

If you know that there's a challenge on the bottom of the
stack that you need a small runner to deal with (social skill
to sleaze, for example), but that runner can't deal with
the earlier challenges (due to damage distribution).
So you send out a team of bruisers to take out the
combat/damage challenges first...

James
Message no. 9
From: Robert Lamb <roblamb@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:05:15 -0700
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brett Borger [SMTP:bxb121@***.EDU]
>
> BTW, did everyone know that you can voluntarily discard as much as
> you wanted? My opponent did that last time to bring Lord Torgo out
> a second time in only a few rounds. (also got his Riots and Drivebys
> back)
>
<<>>

Oh yeah, I use this a ton. I figure I can recycle my trashed
cards if I need to, and doing the above helps me get cards I need out
asap. (challenges, rockers/famers etc). The ability to do this was the
basis for my comment about being able to burn 14 cards in two turns to
get a challenge or two if desperate. I have a feeling that once I get
deck design down a little better, I'll need to do this less tho...

--Rob
Message no. 10
From: Forrest <eness@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:02:37 -0700
---"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> wrote:
>
> Forrest[SMTP:eness@**********.COM] wrote:
> > > So, could you decide to not sleaze a challenge?
> >
> > I would say that you don't have the choice. In fact I can't really
> > think of a situation off the top of my head in which you would not
> > want to sleaze something (minus what was mentioned above of course
:-)
> > ). Anyone have any creative ideas on why you wouldn't want to
sleaze
> > a challenge?
>
> If you know that there's a challenge on the bottom of the
> stack that you need a small runner to deal with (social skill
> to sleaze, for example), but that runner can't deal with
> the earlier challenges (due to damage distribution).
> So you send out a team of bruisers to take out the
> combat/damage challenges first...
>
> James
>

But once you trigger an alarm the other challenges can't be sleazed.
Of course you could reset it with a decker/magic/special card, but I'm
not sure if that's what you had in mind or not...


Forrest
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Message no. 11
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:15:51 -0700
---Forrest wrote:
>
> ---"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> wrote:
> >
> >
> > If you know that there's a challenge on the bottom of the
> > stack that you need a small runner to deal with (social skill
> > to sleaze, for example), but that runner can't deal with
> > the earlier challenges (due to damage distribution).
> > So you send out a team of bruisers to take out the
> > combat/damage challenges first...
>
> But once you trigger an alarm the other challenges can't be sleazed.
> Of course you could reset it with a decker/magic/special card, but
I'm
> not sure if that's what you had in mind or not...

I think he meant to do the above and then pull out, bringing the
little guy in for the remaining challenge on your next turn (new
shadowrun = no alarm). Of course, this is very dependant on your
opponent not putting any new challenges down.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:39:07 -0700
Robert Lamb wrote:

> <<Snip>>

> Matt said:

> > A definite _no_. First you reveal the Challenge, then you see if it
> > can
> > be sleazed (and who's going to decide -not- to sleaze a challenge?
> > Well, the Rep-boosters and Kamikaze Run, maybe). Only if it's
> > unsleazed
> > do you have to worry about combat or special effects.

> <<Snip>>
> So, could you decide to not sleaze a challenge?

Sure, why not? If I knew I was buff enough (and all my opponents had
empty hands) I'd unsleaze myself and tackle the Guardian Fire Elemental
for extra Reputation, or, should I have second thoughts about having
every one of my Runners turned, bump into the Nets to send a few home,
or "accidentally" step on the Hellhound's tail to get rid of my
opponent's tail-gating Red Widow. Or Kamikaze run, as I mentioned
above.

This, actually, was one of the gimmicks I used in my recent submission
to FASA - Challenges you might actually want to encounter for a change.
Not to mention Objectives you might want to turn down..
Message no. 13
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: A Question and stuff
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:28:10 -0400
Forrest[SMTP:eness@**********.COM] wrote:
> > > ). Anyone have any creative ideas on why you wouldn't want to
> sleaze
> > > a challenge?
> >
> > If you know that there's a challenge on the bottom of the
> > stack that you need a small runner to deal with (social skill
> > to sleaze, for example), but that runner can't deal with
> > the earlier challenges (due to damage distribution).
> > So you send out a team of bruisers to take out the
> > combat/damage challenges first...
>
> But once you trigger an alarm the other challenges can't be sleazed.
> Of course you could reset it with a decker/magic/special card, but I'm
> not sure if that's what you had in mind or not...

No - I meant in a separate run. In the same turn if possible
(ie Bulldog van). Although resetting the alarm works too.

James

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