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From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	"Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:13:47 -0400

Message no. 1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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OK, what's the deal with these challeneges that "don't count against the
limt", and also attach themselves to the Objective?

Since they don't count against the limit, can I play another challenge even
before it's revealed?
Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose?

I need some clarification.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Just exactly where are the OATS located on the human body?"

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From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:14:22 -0700

Message no. 2 ---"Steven A. Tinner" wrote:
>
> OK, what's the deal with these challeneges that "don't count
against the
> limt", and also attach themselves to the Objective?
>
> Since they don't count against the limit, can I play another
challenge even
> before it's revealed?
> Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose?
>
> I need some clarification.

It means that once said Challenge is revealed and moves up onto the
Objective, it is no longer in your Challenge stack (even though you're
the owner). Thus it doesn't count towards the max number of Challenges
you may have in a stack on this particular Objective. On your next
Legwork phase you may again fill this stack up to the max allowed.

That any clearer?

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
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From:	Andrew Payne III <smiling_bandit@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:21:09 -0700

Message no. 3 ---"Steven A. Tinner" wrote:
>
> OK, what's the deal with these challeneges that "don't count
against
> the limt", and also attach themselves to the Objective?
>
> Since they don't count against the limit, can I play another
challenge
> even before it's revealed?
> Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose?
>
> I need some clarification.
>

The way I have been handling it is this way. After a Challenge is
revealed you read the cards text. If the text says that it attaches
itself to the objective then you remove it from the Challenge stack
and place it on the objective. Since it is now no longer in the
Challenge stack you may place another challenge in the now open slot.
Since the Challenge is not attached to the objective until you reveal
it, it still counts toward the challenge stacks limit.

===
Andrew Payne III
smiling_bandit@**********.com
http://www.oakland.edu/~ddmccoll/sr

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From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:32:56 -0400

Message no. 4 >It means that once said Challenge is revealed and moves up onto the
>Objective, it is no longer in your Challenge stack (even though you're
>the owner). Thus it doesn't count towards the max number of Challenges
>you may have in a stack on this particular Objective. On your next
>Legwork phase you may again fill this stack up to the max allowed.
>
>That any clearer?

I think so.
So until the challenge is revealed, I can NOT play more then the limited
number of challenges, right?

OK, so how about if the challenege is revealed to just one player due to
Recon?

We've been doing multi-player games, where only the actual player making the
run/doing recon gets to see the challenges.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Just exactly where are the OATS located on the human body?"

From:	Steve Kramarsky <steve@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:39:56 -0400

Message no. 5 >The way I have been handling it is this way. After a Challenge is
>revealed you read the cards text. If the text says that it attaches
>itself to the objective then you remove it from the Challenge stack
>and place it on the objective. Since it is now no longer in the
>Challenge stack you may place another challenge in the now open slot.
>Since the Challenge is not attached to the objective until you reveal
>it, it still counts toward the challenge stacks limit.

I agree. Incidentally we've been playing that challenges 'attached'
to an objective effect all runs against it by any plater
INCLUDING the player who played the challenge.

-S.

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:55:39 -0700

Message no. 6 ---"Steven A. Tinner" wrote:
>
> >It means that once said Challenge is revealed and moves up onto the
> >Objective, it is no longer in your Challenge stack (even though
you're
> >the owner). Thus it doesn't count towards the max number of
Challenges
> >you may have in a stack on this particular Objective. On your next
> >Legwork phase you may again fill this stack up to the max allowed.
> >
> >That any clearer?
>
> I think so.
> So until the challenge is revealed, I can NOT play more then the
limited
> number of challenges, right?
>
> OK, so how about if the challenege is revealed to just one player
due to
> Recon?

This comes from the FASA FAQ:

**********
Q. If a Decker using Recon discovers the Custom System Challenge, is
Custom System placed face up at this time?
A. Yes. Normally, looking at a Challenge using the Recon special
trait does not "reveal" that Challenge, but this is an exception.
**********

Unless the Challenge is something like Custom System or Security
Decker, doing Recon does not actually "reveal" the Challenge and thus
doesn't activate the card's text. Attaching challenges as we've been
discussing would then just return to the challenge stack until
"revealed" when encountered on a Shadowrun, and then they would move
up onto the objective.

> We've been doing multi-player games, where only the actual player
making the
> run/doing recon gets to see the challenges.

You may have to find a way to work with this then.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
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From:	Forrest <eness@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:07:46 -0700

Message no. 7 ---Steve Kramarsky <steve@***.COM> wrote:
>
> >The way I have been handling it is this way. After a Challenge is
> >revealed you read the cards text. If the text says that it attaches
> >itself to the objective then you remove it from the Challenge stack
> >and place it on the objective. Since it is now no longer in the
> >Challenge stack you may place another challenge in the now open
slot.
> >Since the Challenge is not attached to the objective until you
reveal
> >it, it still counts toward the challenge stacks limit.
>
> I agree. Incidentally we've been playing that challenges 'attached'
> to an objective effect all runs against it by any plater
> INCLUDING the player who played the challenge.
>
> -S.
>

I thought that is how it was supposed to be. Come to think of it
though I guess it could go the other way as well, since it is one of
your challenges you don't have to face it. I kind of like it the way
we've been playing it. It adds a little more strategy into both the
deck design and game play.

Forrest

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From:	Forrest <eness@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:14:56 -0700

Message no. 8 ---Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM> wrote:
>
> ---"Steven A. Tinner" wrote:
> >

>
> > We've been doing multi-player games, where only the actual player
> making the
> > run/doing recon gets to see the challenges.
>
> You may have to find a way to work with this then.
>

How about attaching it to an objective face down. Anyone who has
previously seen it may look at it at anytime. The other players know
that something is there but not sure what it is until they make a run
again that objective. Something similar to hearing rumors before a
run, to put it in RPG terms. "I wouldn't go there man, have you heard
what they have guarding that place..." :-)

Once all players have seen it though it is turned face up as normal.

Just a thought
Forrest
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From:	Andrew Payne III <smiling_bandit@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:46:54 -0700

Message no. 9 ---Forrest wrote:
>
> ---Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM> wrote:
> >
> > ---"Steven A. Tinner" wrote:
> > >
> > > We've been doing multi-player games, where only the actual player
> > > making the run/doing recon gets to see the challenges.
> >
> > You may have to find a way to work with this then.
> >
>
> How about attaching it to an objective face down. Anyone who has
> previously seen it may look at it at anytime. The other players know
> that something is there but not sure what it is until they make a run
> again that objective. Something similar to hearing rumors before a
> run, to put it in RPG terms. "I wouldn't go there man, have you
heard
> what they have guarding that place..." :-)
>
> Once all players have seen it though it is turned face up as normal.
>

I really like that idea. I will see if my group goes for it and will
relay the info if it goes well.

===
Andrew Payne III
smiling_bandit@**********.com
http://www.oakland.edu/~ddmccoll/sr

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From:	Logan Graves <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:54:39 -0400

Message no. 10 (>) In our last episode, Steve Kramarsky wrote:

> Incidentally we've been playing that challenges 'attached'
> to an objective effect all runs against it by any plater
> INCLUDING the player who played the challenge.

Nope, chummer. I got the official ruling from Jim Nelson @ FASA:

1. When you succeed in taking YOUR OWN objective, what happend to your
own challenge cards (ie. that stack that you didn't have to face)? Do
they simply return to your trash pile? Or hang around till next time?

Answer: They go in your trash pile.

2. Does this rule apply to EVERYBODY's objectives? (Shadowrun Phase,
Step 1, Rules pg.56, never states whether or not you can also ignore
your own challenges on your opponents' objectives?)

Answer: Yes. You never face your own objectives unless forced to by a
card.

Does that help any?

(>) --Fenris

_____________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) "Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little
rendezvous always have to be in exotic locales? I mean, just
*once* wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan an
assassination over a 'French Slam' breakfast?"
(>) --Deadpool, merc-with-a-mouth

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:04:46 -0700

Message no. 11 >(>) In our last episode, Steve Kramarsky wrote:
>
>> Incidentally we've been playing that challenges 'attached'
>> to an objective effect all runs against it by any plater
>> INCLUDING the player who played the challenge.
>
>Nope, chummer. I got the official ruling from Jim Nelson @ FASA:
>
>1. When you succeed in taking YOUR OWN objective, what happend to your
>own challenge cards (ie. that stack that you didn't have to face)? Do
>they simply return to your trash pile? Or hang around till next time?
>
>Answer: They go in your trash pile.
>
>2. Does this rule apply to EVERYBODY's objectives? (Shadowrun Phase,
>Step 1, Rules pg.56, never states whether or not you can also ignore
>your own challenges on your opponents' objectives?)
>
>Answer: Yes. You never face your own objectives unless forced to by a
>card.

Two things. One, it should say you never face your own CHALLENGES unless
forced to by a card. (not objectives - you can freely run on your own
objective in play). The second is that I would argue that the challenge
(such as Motion Detectors) that gets attached to an objective is, in fact,
the very card that forces you to "face your own objective" in this case.

In short, I agree that if I play Motion Detectors on an objective and
my opponent sets it off, any time I run against his challenges on that
same objective, I am forced to deal with the implications of the Motion
Detectors as well.

Of course, I have no clue in what the "official" interpretation is. And,
based on the recent rulings, I'm beginning not to care...

- Brett

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:15:49 -0400

Message no. 12 At 01:13 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Steven A. Tinner wrote these timeless words:

>Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\smime1.p7s"
>
Speaking of Attached things...

Check your mailer Tinner...:]

Bull
--
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From:	Logan Graves <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:27:40 -0400

Message no. 13 (>) In our last one, Brett Barksdale wrote:

>me>In responce to my post:

>me>Answer: Yes. You never face your own objectives unless forced to by
>me>a card.
>
> . . . it should say you never face your own CHALLENGES unless
> forced to by a card. (not objectives - you can freely run on your own
> objective in play).

Yes, "CHALLENGES," I agree. I'd never noticed that before.
Must be a typo.

> In short, I agree that if I play Motion Detectors on an objective and
> my opponent sets it off, any time I run against his challenges on that
> same objective, I am forced to deal with the implications of the
> Motion Detectors as well.

I don't have one of these, so no idea on the official ruling here,
either. But there are a number of other cards that force ya to face yer
own challenges. Otherwise you can safely ignore them during your run (&
trash 'em afterwards).

(>) --Fenris

______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Ares Arms: We're Number One! (Just give us the
name and address of anyone who disagrees.)
(>) --Ares Slogan

From:	Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: "Attached" Challenges
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:46:36 -0700

Message no. 14 Steven A. Tinner wrote:

Doesn't matter what he wrote, this has nothing to do with it.

Tinner, your mail came through with a invalid signature on it. My mailer
tells me that your mail was altered since you sent it. Way wierd.

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5

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