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Message no. 1
From: Lodewijk Roskott <l.roskott@***.NL>
Subject: bad cards
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:37:18 +0200
we already got the best cards top 10
now let us c what r the 5 most suckiest cards.

lood
Message no. 2
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:08:54 -0800
Lodewijk Roskott wrote:

> we already got the best cards top 10
> now let us c what r the 5 most suckiest cards.

There are no sucky cards! Well, maybe.

1. Ricochet: An even more limited version of Deja Vu. OK, if you're
doing a *lot* of D6 rolling in a heavy Burst Fire deck, this might work
(it frees the Deja Vus up for using them on Mr. Blacks, I guess). But
for a card that can be used with only *six* other cards, it's weak.
And, surprise, this card is going to get an overhaul Real Soon Now.

2. Detect Enemies: For the same cost as Invisibility and Sleep, I get
to target fewer Challenges. OK, I get to pull out safely (where Sleep
poses a small risk), but that just exposes me to the Bounty Hunter.
I've suggested to Mike and Jim a couple different ways to fix the card,
so this might also get an overhaul.

3. Corporate Secretary: A lot of people have complained about her; I
honestly don't find her that bad; maybe dropping the usage cost to 2Y
would solve things (maybe not).

4. Suicide Run. I think I've mentioned this one elsewhere - in
comparison with Just a Rumor, it just doesn't hold up that well. (If
you add in the cost of the Runner you're fragging, JaR costs less, can
be used more often, and only has a 1-in-6 less chance of working.)

5. Brain Fart. OK, funny name; outside of that, I'd rather use a Bad
Lunch (which would keep the mage from using spells on a shadowrun); Poor
Craftsmanship (which might cost more, but will *definitely* drop the
spell); Major Drain (which doesn't stop the spell, but will usually drop
the mage); or Operation Up and Over, which has almost as good a chance
of stopping the spell. Brain Fart ought to trash the spell; or cancel
the spell and remain in play.

And that's it! Remington 750 -- nah, that's a cool piece of Gear, you
just have to work with it. Skillsofts are cool with The Brain, and were
never that bad (and consider the possibilities of Outstanding
Performance again). So I'm glad to see out of - what, now close to five
hundred cards? - only five have my thumbs down.


- Matt

------------------------------------
Beware the man who casts two shadows.

SRCard list.member.newbie
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 3
From: Jon Palmer <jmp225@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:24:42 -0500
>we already got the best cards top 10
>now let us c what r the 5 most suckiest cards.

Again, more base set stuff. And it's gotta be all rares, if they're not
rare, I don't mind them being crappy.

1. Remington 750 - use the Ranger X, for pete's sake.
2. Adam Bomb - Not worthy of 'promo' status.
3. Guardian Elemental - There's exactly TWO guys in the base set (Wishbone
& Pappy) who can use this and survive a bad roll. That sucks.
4. Camo - does it DO anything? Blech. I've never worried THAT much about
Black Hammer
5. Kamikaze Run - Just an overall lame objective. I don't WANT my guys to
die, thank you.

Honorable Mention: A whole bunch of the rare specials & stingers.

Jon Palmer
Message no. 4
From: Apone <mpcheval@********.FR>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:29:58 +0200
Matb wrote:

> There are no sucky cards! Well, maybe.
> 1. Ricochet (...)
> 2. Detect Enemies (...)
> 3. Corporate secretary (...)
> 4. Suicide Run (...)
> 5. Brain Fart (...)

I quite agree with this, but what about the Gyro Stabilizer. In my opinion
it would win the Most Useless Card Awards. Has anyone already put some in
his deck ?
Even if you're not playing a bone crusher deck and want to add firepower to
your runner team in order to improve their weak threat ratings , Gyro stab
is still a bad investment : most of the weakest runners cost around 3
nuyens, that's a 5 nuyen investment to give them a heavy weapon. Better pack
a couple of D-Day for the same price or add 1 nuyen and get Cannonball with
stamina.
And I've got 6 Giro Stabilizers...what a fun.
Apone.
Message no. 5
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:48:53 -0800
[Either Netcom or freaky Boston weather has been giving me really bad
connections today, so I apologize if this has already been posted.]
Jon Palmer wrote:

> >we already got the best cards top 10
> >now let us c what r the 5 most suckiest cards.

> Again, more base set stuff. And it's gotta be all rares, if they're not
> rare, I don't mind them being crappy.

Now this I find difficult: If I'm buying cards in a major way, I'd
rather have only one (a rare) be useless - rather than the twelve or
fifteen copies I might get if it were a common. A bad rare at least has
the novelty of being rare; a bad common just sits in boxes.

It sounds, honestly, like the old MtG strategy of making the rares more
powerful, in the hopes that scarcity will balance them out, playwise...
leading to Mr. Suitcasemanship (izzat a word?). I can go for an odd,
not-terribly useful rare; I know of at least two gamers who won't play
SRTCG because of 'bad commons' (namely Skillsofts and Ally Spirit).

> 1. Remington 750 - use the Ranger X, for pete's sake.

...Unless you like big guns. Ammo, at least, puts the 750 on par with
the Ranger-X; a 750 with Explosive Ammo, Extended Clip and Flechette
Ammo actually gets almost fearsome. Almost.

> 2. Adam Bomb - Not worthy of 'promo' status.

Gotta disagree here: I'm happy he's not part of the *regular* set. I
have one for my collection; I don't plan on ever playing him, so when I
buy new cards, I know I'm not going to be saddled with extras. On the
other hand, he's a goofy card; exactly the sort of thing that might
attract someone who's never played the game before.

> 3. Guardian Elemental - There's exactly TWO guys in the base set (Wishbone
> & Pappy) who can use this and survive a bad roll. That sucks.

I'll disagree with this one, too; he's supposed to be the Big Bad
Nasty-Ass Shaman Card. A Shaman deck *ought* to be able to sleaze most
Challenges and only have to use him in one combat, or in defense against
a Z-zone ambush. He costs a lot less than the nearest Rigger equivalent
(APV) and has a nicer Attack Rating, if no Armor; and his backlash,
which fits the SR:RPG description, only happens 1-in-3. Not a card
you'd rely on, and meant to be that way.

> 4. Camo - does it DO anything? Blech. I've never worried THAT much about
> Black Hammer

Yeah, the big Decker-on-Decker battles just don't happen.

> 5. Kamikaze Run - Just an overall lame objective. I don't WANT my guys to
> die, thank you.

That's, um the point: Your opponent *does* want to kill your guys -
here's a (small) disincentive to doing so. Admittedly, if he cacks your
entire team, you can't score the bonus at all; maybe the reward ought to
be higher, or cumulative through different shadowruns. But I'm glad
it's not a kick-butt Objective like Impossible Mission or Cleanse the
Hive.


- Matt

------------------------------------
Beware the man who casts two shadows.

SRCard list.member.newbie
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 6
From: Phil Jaros <chakan@****.PYROTECHNICS.COM>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:07:05 -0600
Hmmm... It looks like people strongly disagree on the most useless cards.
Which if you ask me, says that there are only a couple of REALLY bad cards
in SRTCG right now. ANd that is a good thing.

>It sounds, honestly, like the old MtG strategy of making the rares more
>powerful, in the hopes that scarcity will balance them out, playwise...
>leading to Mr. Suitcasemanship (izzat a word?). I can go for an odd,
>not-terribly useful rare; I know of at least two gamers who won't play
>SRTCG because of 'bad commons' (namely Skillsofts and Ally Spirit).

I agree completely with you on this regard. Sure it is a bummer that
instead of a Lord Torgo you got a Camo, but I'ld rather keep the number of
semi-useless cards to a low number in my collection. Now I strongly
disagree about Ally Spirit being a bad common. Personally it is one of
my favorite cards. Sure it is limited in use, but if use right it is
a wonderful card...

>>2. Adam Bomb - Not worthy of 'promo' status.
>
>Gotta disagree here: I'm happy he's not part of the *regular* set. I
>have one for my collection; I don't plan on ever playing him, so when I
>buy new cards, I know I'm not going to be saddled with extras. On the
>other hand, he's a goofy card; exactly the sort of thing that might
>attract someone who's never played the game before.

Heheheh I like Adam Bomb. He is a quirky card that can be very useful
in certain types of decks. Yamaha Rapiers work well with him and an
Opponents run...

>> 3. Guardian Elemental - There's exactly TWO guys in the base set (Wishbone
>> & Pappy) who can use this and survive a bad roll. That sucks.

I'ld complain about the Gaurdian Fire and Earth Elementals more, as they
only serve to give your opponents Rep. Yes you can take advantage of
them yourself, but it is risky.



--
Phil Jaros 888888888
chakan@************.com O=O=O=O=O
___________aaaaaaaaaaaaa___________
___...aaaad8888888888888888p"""""q8888888888888888baaaa...___
``"""""q8888888888888|
|8888888888888p"""""''
``"""""< `=-~-='
>"""""''
Chakan `| ^ |'
The Forever Man / | =-= | \
/ `__.__' \
Message no. 7
From: Apone <mpcheval@********.FR>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:53:36 +0200
Matb wrote among other things:

> I know of at least two gamers who won't play
> SRTCG because of 'bad commons' (namely Skillsofts and Ally Spirit).

Ally spirit are not so useless. Play them on Hawkind, one of the few runners
with biotech, and that allows her to get through Riots, Drive by and so-cards
without much troubles. Don't forget Riots are a real nightmare for low body
runners (especially when you play two of them (or three !) in a row. Ally is a
good and relying parade even if it become a little irritating to have over 20 of
them piled up in a box.

Apone
Message no. 8
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:56:49 -0800
Apone wrote:

> > I know of at least two gamers who won't play
> > SRTCG because of 'bad commons' (namely Skillsofts and Ally Spirit).

> Ally spirit are not so useless. Ally is a good and relying parade even if it
become a
> little irritating to have over 20 of them piled up in a box.

OK, time for a little tirade.

[I'm forwarding this to FASA so I can lose what little reputation I have
left with them.]

Out of an assortment of some 81 Runners in the basic set, only *five*
have the skills needed to use Ally Spirit; and, of those five, two are
uncommons, and three are rares. (Two of them Prime Runners, at that!)
Ally Spirit, on the other hand, is a *common*.

This means it's likely -- probable, in fact -- that a beginning player,
buying a starter and two boosters, will end up with two or three Ally
Spirits and *no* Runners he can play them on. (Which, in fact, is
exactly the experience of one of the two gamers mentioned above.) And a
mass-purchaser like me, will have 39 Ally spirits, 4 each of the
uncommons, and only two of the three listed rares (of course, I did
trade Pappy away once). While I can finally ue the Ally Apirit, I've
got *too many* of the thing. It's time to start wallpapering.

Similarly, Skillsofts -- nine cards here, with a mix of which ones are
common, uncommon, and rare -- can only be played with four other cards,
of which only one is a common. (Underworld helps a little, with The
Brain, but that may not matter to some players.)

Every game is going to have it's two- or three-card combos; but in most
cases you'll find that the 'more generic' card - the one that fits into
most decks - will be the more common, not rarer.

Also, in the role-playing game, Ally Spirits are *rare*; I was really
surprised, on that thought alone, to see them as commons in SRTCG.

Ally Spirits and Skillsofts, unfortunately, are only two of the many
"use only with X" combos in the game. To be fair, both are *needed* in
the game -- without the possibility of gaining more skills, the game
goes over entirely to the Big Tough Guys; similarly, the Ally Spirit
gives the weaker shamans a well-needed edge. But combinations really
should be kept for the rarer cards of the set.

I'm not sure what a fair solution would be. I'd suggest moving the Ally
Spirit to being an uncommon, although I can't think of an uncommon I'd
like to see become a common (Heal?) or a card I'd like to see swapped in
for it (nothing from Underworld, thanks). Adding a few more Runners
with Con-2 might solve the problem, too. (I don't think it's that
unbalancing, actually - and look at all the Runners with Mel-2 ;) )



End of screed. If you made it this far, thank you.


- Matt

------------------------------------
Beware the man who casts two shadows.

SRCard list.member.newbie
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 9
From: Jon Palmer <jmp225@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:28:04 -0500
>Ally Spirits and Skillsofts, unfortunately, are only two of the many
>"use only with X" combos in the game. To be fair, both are *needed* in
>the game -- without the possibility of gaining more skills, the game
>goes over entirely to the Big Tough Guys; similarly, the Ally Spirit
>gives the weaker shamans a well-needed edge. But combinations really
>should be kept for the rarer cards of the set.
>
>I'm not sure what a fair solution would be. I'd suggest moving the Ally
>Spirit to being an uncommon, although I can't think of an uncommon I'd
>like to see become a common (Heal?) or a card I'd like to see swapped in
>for it (nothing from Underworld, thanks). Adding a few more Runners
>with Con-2 might solve the problem, too. (I don't think it's that
>unbalancing, actually - and look at all the Runners with Mel-2 ;) )

How about dropping Fireball to common, taking the near-useless Bolt of
Power out of the set altogether, and putting a common from UW into the
basic set? Anyway, I agree that Ally Spirits should probably be rarer.
But most likely this will be less of a problem as the game moves along and
we get more dudes with Conjure-2.

Oh, as a continuation of that armor post... I don't think armor by itself
is nearly as annoying as armor+stamina. If there's not another
armor+stamina guy made (at least among non-Primes) I'd be happy. My "Big
Bruiser" deck is based around Ravage, Stomper(s) and Tin Man(s)... and the
main reason is they've all got armor and stamina. If stamina is made a lot
less common, I think we'll see a lot less of the Big Bruiser decks, because
with Reinforcements you can make damage add up enough not to kill people,
necessarily (that's what Z-Zone/Dr. Apocalypse/Hellblast is for) but to
keep them from killing stuff on the objective.

Jon Palmer
Message no. 10
From: Apone <mpcheval@********.FR>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 04:46:56 +0200
Matb wrote:

> This means it's likely -- probable, in fact -- that a beginning player,
> buying a starter and two boosters, will end up with two or three Ally
> Spirits and *no* Runners he can play them on. (Which, in fact, is
> exactly the experience of one of the two gamers mentioned above.) And a
> mass-purchaser like me, will have 39 Ally spirits, 4 each of the
> uncommons, and only two of the three listed rares (of course, I did
> trade Pappy away once). While I can finally use the Ally Apirit, I've
> got *too many* of the thing. It's time to start wallpapering.

In this case I think it's more a problem dealing with the proportion of
common/uncommon/rare
cards in the the 1st Edition than to know if one particular card should be a rare or a
common.

On the 359 cards of this edition there's:
- 110 Commons
- 120 Uncommons
- 129 Rares
As you get 1rare/booster and 3 (sometimes only 2) rares /starter, you will - after a while
of
hard (and expansive) collecting work - find yourself piling up bunch of commons, which are
not
exchangeable 'cause everybody has them. And you still lack a lot of rares.
I agree it's annoying having 30 times a card which can only be used on very restrictive
combos. But after all it's not worse than having 30 times any other card.
Just "thanks" Fasa for this one and hope they won't do it again for the 2nd Run.

so long

Apone.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You may bury my body down by the highway side,
So my old evil spirit can catch a Greyhound bus n'ride."
Robert Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: bad cards
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:25:42 -0800
Jon Palmer wrote:

> How about dropping Fireball to common, taking the near-useless Bolt of
> Power out of the set altogether, and putting a common from UW into the
> basic set? Anyway, I agree that Ally Spirits should probably be rarer.
> But most likely this will be less of a problem as the game moves along and
> we get more dudes with Conjure-2.

I wouldn't call BoP useless.. most of the small Runners (Dante, etc -
even Doc Apoc) will at the very worst stay the same, usually pop up to a
5/x, and, with a bit of luck (or Loaded Dice) pump up to 8/x or higher -
and I'd gladly trade Orion + BoP for Stomper.

The problem with BoP is that it pales in comparison with its 'big
brother' Fireball, and the 2Y difference just doesn't matter in a Mage
deck; that, and most mage decks are sleaze decks, not fighting decks.
I'd rather chance things with a Sleep (and bring along a second, tougher
Runner for when things go down) than *really* chance things with a BoP
or Fireball.

Hellblast, of course, has other, better uses :)

But the switch you mentioned seems nice and balanced - but I'd rather an
entirely new card than a reprint from UW.

(Armor/Stamina stuff snipped, as I agree with it)


- Matt

------------------------------------
Beware the man who casts two shadows.

SRCard list.member.newbie
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm

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