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Message no. 1
From: Jean-Philippe NEUDER <Jean-Philippe.Neuder@******.EDFGDF.FR>
Subject: Biotech.
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:40:14 +0100
The rule about biotech says:
"Biotech allows a Runner to completely heal himself or a target Runner
(but not Spirits or Drones) who is present, provided the target
Runner has a Body of at least 1. The Runner must turn to use Biotech
unless he is on a shadowrun. If on a shadowrun, he need not turn, but
may
only use the trait between Challenges. This trait can only be used
once per turn. A Runner with enhanced Biotech may heal a number of
Runners
equal to his Biotech rating, but must heal them all at the same time.
For example, a Runner with Biotech 2 may heal two Runners. This
special trait
cannot be used on Cyborgs."

My Hawkwind has this trait. She can completely heal herself even
during a shadowrun. What does mean the fact that she "may
only use the trait between Challenges" ?
If her body comes to 0 due to a challenge may she use the trait
immediatly after and before the next challenge or does she is
considered definitly dead before beeing able to use the trait ?

Thanks.

Jean-Philippe.
Message no. 2
From: Quicksilver <qwksilvr@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech.
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:03:28 -0600
At 03:40 PM 10/28/97 +0100, you wrote:
> The rule about biotech says:
> "Biotech allows a Runner to completely heal himself or a target Runner
> (but not Spirits or Drones) who is present, provided the target
> Runner has a Body of at least 1. The Runner must turn to use Biotech

<<snippage>>

> My Hawkwind has this trait. She can completely heal herself even
> during a shadowrun. What does mean the fact that she "may
> only use the trait between Challenges" ?
> If her body comes to 0 due to a challenge may she use the trait
> immediatly after and before the next challenge or does she is
> considered definitly dead before beeing able to use the trait ?

Re-read the first sentence of the rule :).

Hg
Message no. 3
From: Nemein <nemein@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech.
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:08:43 -0800
---Jean-Philippe NEUDER <Jean-Philippe.Neuder@******.EDFGDF.FR> wrote:
>
[snipped biotech rule from RBT]
>
> My Hawkwind has this trait. She can completely heal herself even
> during a shadowrun. What does mean the fact that she "may
> only use the trait between Challenges" ?
> If her body comes to 0 due to a challenge may she use the trait
> immediatly after and before the next challenge or does she is
> considered definitly dead before beeing able to use the trait ?
>

If her body is down to 0 due to a challenge, then she is dead (barring
other card play to save her). The "between challenges" thing means
that time after you are past one challenge and before you have decided
to move on to the next challenge.

As an aside, it's my opinion that biotech is probably the most broken
aspect of the game. If it only worked during the legwork phase, or if
it just didn't work during a run that might "balance" it out a bit.
Alteast the runners who have biotech aren't that "large" to begin
with. Now if there were only more cards directed at runners... :-)


==
Forrest My opinions... Your delete key...
aka Nemein Best when both are used freely :-)

Shadowrun: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/srccg.html
Last updates - SRCard List ideas: 13 Oct '97
My ideas: 23 Oct '97 (Now over 50!)
Doomtrooper: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/dtccg.html
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Message no. 4
From: "(No Name Available)" <mothman@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech.
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:42:31 -0600
>>>As an aside, it's my opinion that biotech is probably the most broken aspect
of the game. If it only worked during the legwork phase, or if it just didn't work during
a run that might "balance" it out a bit.<<<

Why do you feel this way? I'm always curious when I see the word broken.
To me, it implies that the broken card, ability, etc. provides such an
advantage to the user that it virtually guarantees victory. I just ask
because I've tried very hard to find a way to break Shadowrun, and
haven't been able to do so (the closeset card I've found is media
Chick).

Has Biotech been a deciding factor in your games?
Anybody else with any thoughts on cards or rules that may break the
game?
--
mothman@**********.com

"It's more fun to compute"
—Kraftwerk
Message no. 5
From: Wei-Long <mpuscar@*******.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Biotech. (fwd)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:57:28 -0500
On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, mothman wrote:
>>>As an aside, it's my opinion that biotech is probably the most b
>>>roken aspect of the game. If it only worked during the legwork phase,
>>> or if it just didn't work during a run that might "balance" it
out a
>>> bit.
> Has Biotech been a deciding factor in your games?
> Anybody else with any thoughts on cards or rules that may break the
> game?

Biotech is far from a game breaker. I don't think media chicks break the
game either. I have found two potential ways to break the game in the
time I have been playing:

1) The pumpable decks. I don't play them anymore because when I use
them, please won't play. Basically it involves all challenges that are
pumpable (lone star, security guards, mage strike force, etc) and 12 fame
characters (4 glitz, 4 thrash, 4 kromagnus). The rest of the cards are
all annoying stop cards: 4 green apple footsteps, 4 wild goose chase, 4
luck of the irish, and, of course, 4 tin man. There are also bulldog
vans to protect your fame crew from riots, along with knuckles to take
the damage for them. By the 4th or 5th turn you are getting about 7
nuyen around, more if you are lucky. I just don't spend it. Sit back
and watch other people run your challenges, and just pump until all are
dead. The people I play with are sneaky, though, so they use kracker
jack and a few others to peak and the challenges and then try to sleaze
them. That is where green apple quicksteps and luck o the irish come
in. You just green apple quicksteps the one guy who can make the
challenge unsleazable, then kill the rest of the team... I would call
this strategy a game breaker, though my friends do tend to whine.

2) bug decks. They really make the game boring, and shouldn't have been
included. This is another popular strategy in my group. All objectives
are bug hunts, urban brawl, etc, so that the challenges you lay down are
meaningless. Then, as above, lots of fame guys but also lots of big
guys. The game ends very quickly. There is only so many times you can
play wild goose chase before they just get the objective (no surprise
challenges, so player can precalculate everything before the run). Sure,
you guys can respond with things like, "yeah, just use a change of plans,
that will throw em off", but there are only so many of those in your
deck. Besides, thes kind of objectives take the fun out of the game -
afterall, challenges are 1/3rd of the fun of the game...

.. just my two cents ..

Mike
mpuscar@************.com
Message no. 6
From: Nemein <nemein@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech.
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:09:02 -0800
---"(No Name Available)" <mothman@**********.COM> wrote:
>
> Why do you feel this way? I'm always curious when I see the word
> broken. To me, it implies that the broken card, ability, etc.
provides
> such an advantage to the user that it virtually guarantees victory. I
> just ask because I've tried very hard to find a way to break
> Shadowrun, and haven't been able to do so (the closeset card I've
> found is media Chick).
>
> Has Biotech been a deciding factor in your games?
> Anybody else with any thoughts on cards or rules that may break the
> game?
>

In all honesty it's been awhile since we've played, hope to get a
couple of games in this weekend though :-) Anyway, from what I recall
in the last game in which biotech was used I had a couple of runners
with biotech and a couple of the larger one (love that Stomper :-) )
going out on a run. Barring a challenge which ended the run (in which
case you just run again next turn and hope that they haven't put
another one out) the "stompers" suck up the damage then heal from
biotech to go on to the next challenge, repeat until finished with
run. Now it might have been just the "right" combination of
challenges/runners/objectives to make this work out like this. So
yes, maybe broken was a bit stronger than neccessary. However of all
the special abilities (such as recon, biotech, guard, fame, etc) the
biotech was in our mind the closest to being "unbalanced". As I
mentioned this was mainly because of the "on the fly" ability...
==
Forrest My opinions... Your delete key...
aka Nemein Best when both are used freely :-)

Shadowrun: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/srccg.html
Last updates - SRCard List ideas: 13 Oct '97
My ideas: 23 Oct '97 (Now over 50!)
Doomtrooper: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/dtccg.html
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 7
From: Rob Harris <rjharris@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Biotech.
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:23:03 -0600
well, I hate to bring it up, but there is a couple cards that destroy this
strategy - both rare I am afriad - The Big Chase and Highway Showdown.
Doing 3AP or 4 points to every runner washes away the smaller runners and
kills off ever biotech person in the game. It really sucks. Follow it up
with a larger challenge that will kill off the Stompers, or cowards when
the withdraw, and it makes for a mean strategy. Uncommon cards like
Sabotaged Controls and Fusion Gate total wipe out the biotech players as
well. Just my $.02....

Rob

----------
> In all honesty it's been awhile since we've played, hope to get a
> couple of games in this weekend though :-) Anyway, from what I recall
> in the last game in which biotech was used I had a couple of runners
> with biotech and a couple of the larger one (love that Stomper :-) )
> going out on a run. Barring a challenge which ended the run (in which
> case you just run again next turn and hope that they haven't put
> another one out) the "stompers" suck up the damage then heal from
> biotech to go on to the next challenge, repeat until finished with
> run. Now it might have been just the "right" combination of
> challenges/runners/objectives to make this work out like this. So
> yes, maybe broken was a bit stronger than neccessary. However of all
> the special abilities (such as recon, biotech, guard, fame, etc) the
> biotech was in our mind the closest to being "unbalanced". As I
> mentioned this was mainly because of the "on the fly" ability...
> ==
> Forrest My opinions... Your delete key...
> aka Nemein Best when both are used freely :-)
>
> Shadowrun: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/srccg.html
> Last updates - SRCard List ideas: 13 Oct '97
> My ideas: 23 Oct '97 (Now over 50!)
> Doomtrooper: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/dtccg.html
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 8
From: Nemein <nemein@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech.
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:40:49 -0800
---Rob Harris <rjharris@********.UIUC.EDU> wrote:
>
> well, I hate to bring it up, but there is a couple cards that destroy
> this strategy - both rare I am afriad - The Big Chase and Highway
> Showdown. Doing 3AP or 4 points to every runner washes away the
> smaller runners and kills off ever biotech person in the game. It
> really sucks. Follow it up with a larger challenge that will kill off
> the Stompers, or cowards when the withdraw, and it makes for a mean
> strategy. Uncommon cards like Sabotaged Controls and Fusion Gate
total
> wipe out the biotech players as
> well. Just my $.02....
>
>

Actually I have yet to see a Big Chase in the 4+ boxes that my friends
and I have purchased. Also, as a counter point to the above. Don't
forget though that there is plenty of armor cards and other things out
there (Harley) that provide bonuses to defense. These can be used to
help "beef" up the biotech runners instead of your other runners
because after all the other runners are going to be healed ;-) Not to
mention that both of the runner so far are shamans and therefore can
use the Ally Spirit the help sluff off damamge.

==
Forrest My opinions... Your delete key...
aka Nemein Best when both are used freely :-)

Shadowrun: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/srccg.html
Last updates - SRCard List ideas: 13 Oct '97
My ideas: 23 Oct '97 (Now over 50!)
Doomtrooper: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/dtccg.html
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 9
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech. (fwd)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:37:37 -0500
At 10:57 AM 10/28/97 -0500, Wei-Long wrote these timeless words:

>Biotech is far from a game breaker. I don't think media chicks break the
>game either. I have found two potential ways to break the game in the
>time I have been playing:
>
>1) The pumpable decks.
[SNIP]

Actually, this deck, while nasty on your opponent, will do little more than
drag the game out to a slow crawl. You keep killing off your opponent, and
you can rarely, if ever, god on a decent run yourself, as you only have Tin
Man (Cool card, but he has a bad tendancy to get bg once, then die) and
Kromag (only a 6/7) to make the runs, and no skills to sleaze.

Also, The Bug Challenges and Urban Brawl, along with challenges that say
thuings like no Personall or Indoor Challenges sort of frag up that deck
hard...:]

Shadowrun did a really good job of balaning itself out...:]

>2) bug decks.
>
The problem with these is that anyone with some decent sized runners can
beat them. Urban Brawl is a joke, Cermak Blast isn;t all too hard, though
Cleanse the Hive REally sucks...;]

<shrug>

I've used these before, but they end up helping my opponent as much as me,
because you KNOW you won;t have to deal with those nasty Maglocks or
Dracoforms...;]

I haven;t seen an unbeatable deck. I have two decks that I can win 80% of
the time with, but they are well balanced decks with a variety of difficult
challanges to throw at my opponent, and I can usually beat speed decks, bug
decks, or whatever with them. Balance will beat trickery any day. :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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Message no. 10
From: Quicksilver <qwksilvr@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech. (fwd)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:10:32 -0600
At 06:37 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote:

<<snip>>
>>1) The pumpable decks.
>[SNIP]
>
>Actually, this deck, while nasty on your opponent, will do little more than
>drag the game out to a slow crawl. You keep killing off your opponent, and
>you can rarely, if ever, god on a decent run yourself, as you only have Tin
>Man (Cool card, but he has a bad tendancy to get bg once, then die) and
>Kromag (only a 6/7) to make the runs, and no skills to sleaze.

I've got a version of this deck (I call it my money deck) that's a
lot of fun to play. It hasn't won yet, but I pretty much get to pick who
does win :). We play mostly multi-player games around here.

>Also, The Bug Challenges and Urban Brawl, along with challenges that say
>thuings like no Personall or Indoor Challenges sort of frag up that deck
>hard...:]

Foxy Roxy shuts down most of the pumpables as well :(. I find
myself trying to get her out of the way quickly.

>Shadowrun did a really good job of balaning itself out...:]

Yeppers.

<<more snippage>>

Hg
Message no. 11
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech.
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:52:19 -0800
Nemein wrote:
>
> ---Rob Harris <rjharris@********.UIUC.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > well, I hate to bring it up, but there is a couple cards that destroy
> > this strategy - both rare I am afriad - The Big Chase and Highway
> > Showdown. Doing 3AP or 4 points to every runner washes away the
> > smaller runners and kills off ever biotech person in the game. It
> > really sucks. Follow it up with a larger challenge that will kill off
> > the Stompers, or cowards when the withdraw, and it makes for a mean
> > strategy. Uncommon cards like Sabotaged Controls and Fusion Gate
> total
> > wipe out the biotech players as
> > well. Just my $.02....
> >
> >
>
> Actually I have yet to see a Big Chase in the 4+ boxes that my friends
> and I have purchased.

Electrified Fence, Fusion Gate, or any of a few other Challenges that
target Runners. Hit and Run, The Big Chase!, Minefield, a few others
that splat everyone. Alite Security Mage, Nets, Ret Scanners, a few
others to get the Biotech out of the run.

Remember that guy who came on about Fame? There's just as many ways to
get rid of a Biotecher. It's supposed to be a strong ability. Only two
people in the game have it, and some Gear only vaguely approaches its
ability (Heal may or may not clear all damage, Stimpatch works a little
bit better in some ways, but clears nowhere near enough damage;
DocWagons work, but on another level entirely.)

> Also, as a counter point to the above. Don't
> forget though that there is plenty of armor cards and other things out
> there (Harley) that provide bonuses to defense.

Umm, Forrest... it's armor-piercing damage. :)

> These can be used to
> help "beef" up the biotech runners instead of your other runners
> because after all the other runners are going to be healed ;-) Not to
> mention that both of the runner so far are shamans and therefore can
> use the Ally Spirit the help sluff off damamge.

Um, Moon Shadow is only a Conjure-1, and an Ally needs Conjure 2 (this
is from memory - I do know Hawkwind can handle them.)

Like I said, it's a big ability, but also really limited. When an
expansion comes out with a 9/8 (A3) goober with Biotech, or an
unbalanced MedKit (0Y, +1 Biotech to user..) then you'll hear me gripe
too.


-Mb
Message no. 12
From: Nemein <nemein@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech.
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:49:15 -0800
---Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> > Also, as a counter point to the above. Don't
> > forget though that there is plenty of armor cards and other things
out
> > there (Harley) that provide bonuses to defense.
>
> Umm, Forrest... it's armor-piercing damage. :)
>

Yes some of them are, but not all of the ones that were mentioned are...

> > These can be used to
> > help "beef" up the biotech runners instead of your other runners
> > because after all the other runners are going to be healed ;-)
Not to
> > mention that both of the runner so far are shamans and therefore can
> > use the Ally Spirit the help sluff off damamge.
>
> Um, Moon Shadow is only a Conjure-1, and an Ally needs Conjure 2 (this
> is from memory - I do know Hawkwind can handle them.)
>
I was working from memory as well. I see now that you are correct.
Apologies for the confusion.

> Like I said, it's a big ability, but also really limited. When an
> expansion comes out with a 9/8 (A3) goober with Biotech, or an
> unbalanced MedKit (0Y, +1 Biotech to user..) then you'll hear me gripe
> too.
>

I guess it was just the match up of decks that we had then. As I said
it has been awhile since I have had a chance to play, but the one
thing I remember from the last time we played with that biotech seemed
to be a bit much...
==
Forrest My opinions... Your delete key...
aka Nemein Best when both are used freely :-)

Shadowrun: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/srccg.html
Last updates - SRCard List ideas: 13 Oct '97
My ideas: 23 Oct '97 (Now over 50!)
Doomtrooper: www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3056/dtccg.html
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 13
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech. (fwd)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:56:20 -0800
Wei-Long wrote:

> Biotech is far from a game breaker. I don't think media chicks break the
> game either. I have found two potential ways to break the game in the
> time I have been playing:

> 1) The pumpable decks.

[snip]

> 2) bug decks.

I think these two really balance each other out :) Go ahead, play that
Elite Security Fleshform :) Oooh, I'm scared!

Really wish there was a way to either a) augment a Challenge in
UB/Cermak/Hive Objectives (I'm under the impression the Integrated
Control Center does *not* help direct fire-control after security's
turned mutant * ) or b) 'temporarily' change one back -- a thought which
spawns a lot of possible card ideas, now that I think on it.



-Mb

(*) I say ICC doesn't help more because its fodder to be turned into
Bugs or Brawlers, rather than pop off and add its bonus. OTOH, weaselly
Custom System (if you believe it's revealed via Recon) will pop off the
Challenge stack, and, in an absolutely silly fit, so would the Security
Decker. Of course, why you're bothering to Recon a Hive Objective is
beyond me...
Message no. 14
From: "(No Name Available)" <mothman@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Biotech. (fwd)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:04:23 -0600
>>>Really wish there was a way to either a) augment a Challenge in
UB/Cermak/Hive Objectives (I'm under the impression the Integrated
Control Center does *not* help direct fire-control after security's
turned mutant * ) or b) 'temporarily' change one back -- a thought which
spawns a lot of possible card ideas, now that I think on it.<<<

I was just saying the same thing to a friend yesterday! It seems like a
good place for a new card or two, doesn't it? :)
--
mothman@**********.com

"It's more fun to compute"
—Kraftwerk

Further Reading

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