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Message no. 1
From: Zachariah Hoffman <zhoffman@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:08:18 -0700
Can Change of Plans be played after runners are chosen, or does it have to
be played before?

Zach
Message no. 2
From: Olaf kramer <Olaf-Kramer@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:14:17 +0200
Zachariah Hoffman schrieb:
> Can Change of Plans be played after runners are chosen, or does it have to
> be played before?
>
> Zach

Before,not nice but true.
Olaf
Message no. 3
From: David Reis <david.reis@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:51:33 -0700
At 08:14 PM 8/20/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Zachariah Hoffman schrieb:
>> Can Change of Plans be played after runners are chosen, or does it have to
>> be played before?
>>
>> Zach
>
>Before,not nice but true.
>Olaf
>
Not sure if I agree with you. The card is a stinger, so it can be played
any time, subject to card text. The text only says, "Play when a player
announces a shadowrun." The way we play, a player announces his shadowrun,
stating which objective is the target and which runners are going.
Therefore, in our games CoP is usually played after runners are chosen.

David
Message no. 4
From: Jonathan Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:57:06 +0100
>Not sure if I agree with you. The card is a stinger, so it can be played
>any time, subject to card text. The text only says, "Play when a player
>announces a shadowrun." The way we play, a player announces his shadowrun,
>stating which objective is the target and which runners are going.
>Therefore, in our games CoP is usually played after runners are chosen.


And just to make it a little meaner, before your opponent takes an
Objective, you can CoP him to a Cleanse The Hive, and All Or Nothing his
sorry butt....

Needless to say, if you do that it's best not to play against this person
for a week or so ;-)

Jon
Message no. 5
From: Noah Overton <NOAH_OVERTON@*************.OM.HP.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:09:22 -0700
>Not sure if I agree with you. The card is a stinger, so it can be played
>any time, subject to card text. The text only says, "Play when a player
>announces a shadowrun." The way we play, a player announces his
shadowrun, >stating which objective is the target and which runners are
going.
>Therefore, in our games CoP is usually played after runners are chosen.


>And just to make it a little meaner, before your opponent takes an
>Objective, you can CoP him to a Cleanse The Hive, and All Or Nothing his
>sorry butt....

sorry but this is not avaid move. CoP only played announces shadowrun not
during shadowrun.


>Needless to say, if you do that it's best not to play against this person
>for a week or so ;-)

even more reason not to play him if you cheated.....

>Jon

puckstpr

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Author: Non-HP-jonathan.edwards (jonathan.edwards@*****.COM) at
HP-PaloAlto,mimegw2
Date: 8/20/98 3:57 AM


>Not sure if I agree with you. The card is a stinger, so it can be played
>any time, subject to card text. The text only says, "Play when a player
>announces a shadowrun." The way we play, a player announces his shadowrun,
>stating which objective is the target and which runners are going.
>Therefore, in our games CoP is usually played after runners are chosen.


And just to make it a little meaner, before your opponent takes an
Objective, you can CoP him to a Cleanse The Hive, and All Or Nothing his
sorry butt....

Needless to say, if you do that it's best not to play against this person
for a week or so ;-)

Jon
Message no. 6
From: Mo'ike Manawa <ManawaWolf@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:31:58 EDT
In a message dated 98-08-20 15:10:28 EDT, you write:

<< >And just to make it a little meaner, before your opponent takes an
>Objective, you can CoP him to a Cleanse The Hive, and All Or Nothing his
>sorry butt....

sorry but this is not avaid move. CoP only played announces shadowrun not
during shadowrun. >>

I am not sure I follow your arguement here. I will play this out, and then
would appreciate being told what is wrong.

You: I am going on the Amazonian Hunt Shadowrun with [ characters here ].
Me: I will spend the nuyen and you are now going on the Cleanse the Hive,
and spend the X nuyen ( don't have the card so I don't know the cost, but
assuming it is a stinger. ) to make it All or Nothing.

What is wrong with this play of hand?
Message no. 7
From: Donald Arganbright <jayden63@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:41:32 PDT
Hi,

>>>And just to make it a little meaner, before your opponent takes >>>an
Objective, you can CoP him to a Cleanse The Hive, and All Or >>>Nothing
his sorry butt....

>> sorry but this is not avaid move. CoP only played announces >> >>
shadowrun not during shadowrun.

>I am not sure I follow your arguement here. I will play this out, >and
then would appreciate being told what is wrong.
>
>You: I am going on the Amazonian Hunt Shadowrun with [ characters
>here ].
>Me: I will spend the nuyen and you are now going on the Cleanse the
>Hive, and spend the X nuyen ( don't have the card so I don't know the
>cost, but assuming it is a stinger. ) to make it All or Nothing.
>
>What is wrong with this play of hand?
>

You are correct. The problem is in the first paragraph. You cannot
play COP during a shadowrun in progress like you can Wild Goose Chase,
as the first paragraph is implying.

*** Knife Sharpens on Stone... Man Sharpens on Man ***
*** - Tao ***

Jayden Stormwalker
Donald Arganbright


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Message no. 8
From: Jonathan Edwards <jonathan.edwards@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:46:19 +0100
>You are correct. The problem is in the first paragraph. You cannot
>play COP during a shadowrun in progress like you can Wild Goose Chase,
>as the first paragraph is implying.


Yeah, I guess it would help if I read the card on occasion....ooops...my bad

And if it's cheating and they can't read either, it's not my problem, is
it? ;-)

J
Message no. 9
From: Noah Overton <NOAH_OVERTON@*************.OM.HP.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:07:36 -0700
<< >And just to make it a little meaner, before your opponent takes an
>Objective, you can CoP him to a Cleanse The Hive, and All Or Nothing his >sorry
butt....

sorry but this is not avaid move. CoP only played announces shadowrun not during
shadowrun. >>

I am not sure I follow your arguement here. I will play this out, and then
would appreciate being told what is wrong.

You: I am going on the Amazonian Hunt Shadowrun with [ characters here ]. Me:
I will spend the nuyen and you are now going on the Cleanse the Hive, and spend
the X nuyen ( don't have the card so I don't know the cost, but assuming it is a
stinger. ) to make it All or Nothing.

What is wrong with this play of hand?

this is correct what i was talking about is when you said before he take the
objective. if the run is already underway it cant be CoP.

noah

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Author: Non-HP-ManawaWolf (ManawaWolf@***.COM) at HP-PaloAlto,mimegw2
Date: 8/20/98 12:31 PM


In a message dated 98-08-20 15:10:28 EDT, you write:

<< >And just to make it a little meaner, before your opponent takes an
>Objective, you can CoP him to a Cleanse The Hive, and All Or Nothing his
>sorry butt....

sorry but this is not avaid move. CoP only played announces shadowrun not
during shadowrun. >>

I am not sure I follow your arguement here. I will play this out, and then
would appreciate being told what is wrong.

You: I am going on the Amazonian Hunt Shadowrun with [ characters here ].
Me: I will spend the nuyen and you are now going on the Cleanse the Hive,
and spend the X nuyen ( don't have the card so I don't know the cost, but
assuming it is a stinger. ) to make it All or Nothing.

What is wrong with this play of hand?
Message no. 10
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:52:51 -0700
> I am not sure I follow your arguement here. I will play this out, and then
> would appreciate being told what is wrong.
>
> You: I am going on the Amazonian Hunt Shadowrun with [ characters here ].
> Me: I will spend the nuyen and you are now going on the Cleanse the Hive,
> and spend the X nuyen ( don't have the card so I don't know the cost, but
> assuming it is a stinger. ) to make it All or Nothing.

> What is wrong with this play of hand?

It doesn't follow the sequence described in the rulebook. Details are
given on page 56; in brief, selecting the Objective (step 1) and
choosing Runners (step 2) are two discreet steps. CoP is played when
the shadowrunning player announces his Objective.

To be blunt, this does weaken the card considerably, sinec the player
knows exactly how buff the Runners he's sending need to be. It does
prevent a player from taking a lightly defended Objective, or an
undefended one which you can't intercept.


- Matt

------------------------------------
The truth will set you free - but first it's gonna piss you off.
- Kanya Vashon McGhee

GridSec: SRCard / Freedonian Research Assistant
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 11
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:50:04 -0700
---Zachariah Hoffman <zhoffman@*.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote:
>
> Can Change of Plans be played after runners are chosen, or does it have to
> be played before?

The way we've played is a player turns the chosen runners to make his
shadowrunning team and states his intention to run and on what Objective. This
for all intents and purposes in pretty much the same action.

So as an example: I've finished my legwork phase. Turning Canonball, Reaper,
Drake, both Tinkerbells and The Mole I state that I'm going on a run after
Roboplant Revolt, I add that the Mole will be matrix cover and not physcially
present. At this point Tony deploys a Change of Plans and advises me the team
feels they should go for Mission Impossible instead. I lack an LotI or any
other recourse, so the first Challenge on MI is revealed and I set myself to
deal with it.

That's IMHO but what makes sense to me.

I'll pass this question on to the DLOH's and see what they have to say.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Shadowrun RPG 3rd Edition Playtester. SRTCG Playtester.
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 12
From: "(Ryan Smith)" <SnakeIzBac@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:26:33 EDT
In a message dated 8/21/98 6:36:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM writes:

<< It doesn't follow the sequence described in the rulebook. Details are
given on page 56; in brief, selecting the Objective (step 1) and
choosing Runners (step 2) are two discreet steps. CoP is played when
the shadowrunning player announces his Objective.

To be blunt, this does weaken the card considerably, sinec the player
knows exactly how buff the Runners he's sending need to be. It does
prevent a player from taking a lightly defended Objective, or an
undefended one which you can't intercept.
>>



Interesting I HAVE BEEN Playing Change of Plans very wrong... I have been
playing it when i announce my objective, and turn my runners. But i like it
that way.... IT makes it more interesting..
Message no. 13
From: Keldon Mor <Keldon@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:07:39 -0500
>> You: I am going on the Amazonian Hunt Shadowrun with [ characters
here ].
>> Me: I will spend the nuyen and you are now going on the Cleanse the
Hive,
>> and spend the X nuyen ( don't have the card so I don't know the cost, but
>> assuming it is a stinger. ) to make it All or Nothing.
>
>> What is wrong with this play of hand?
>
>It doesn't follow the sequence described in the rulebook. Details are
>given on page 56; in brief, selecting the Objective (step 1) and
>choosing Runners (step 2) are two discreet steps. CoP is played when
>the shadowrunning player announces his **Objective.**
>
>To be blunt, this does weaken the card considerably, sinec the player
>knows exactly how buff the Runners he's sending need to be. It does
>prevent a player from taking a lightly defended Objective, or an
>undefended one which you can't intercept.
>
>- Matt

Ah, if that is what the card says, they're wouldn't be an argument. But,
the cards says to play when the Player announces a **Shadowrun** which of
course isn't in the steps at all. And if precedence can be set with other
cards like LoTI or Deja Vu which state that they are played on a Just played
card or die roll Just made. It's doesn't say Just announced shadowrun so
there may be some play in the timing there.
Either play the card anytime before the first challenge is faced or play
the card Before the Objective is selected. "Hey, I'm doing a shadowrun, the
objective will be Cake Walk, and I'm sending Glitz & Stomper". If the former
is used, then the card will hardly ever be used. Why spend 4 nuyen when
theres a 50/50 chance he's going to pick the one you want.
I think FASA intended on the card to be played anytime as they didn't
want any timing issues like MTG but failed to realize how much ANY game can
be picked apart. I like SRTCG because it's fun to play, and it's more Fun to
play it that way :) Come on, who doesn't like to see Goretusk, Stomper &
Torgo rerouted from Cake Walk to Cleanse the Hive and get blindsided and
told to go all or nothing. Now that's funny.

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
"To bad ignorance isn't painful..."
Message no. 14
From: Noah Overton <NOAH_OVERTON@*************.OM.HP.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:08:15 -0700
---Zachariah Hoffman <zhoffman@*.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote: >
> Can Change of Plans be played after runners are chosen, or does it
have to > be played before?

>>>>>The way we've played is a player turns the chosen runners to make
his shadowrunning team and states his intention to run and on what
Objective. This for all intents and purposes in pretty much the same
action.>>>>

>>>>So as an example: I've finished my legwork phase. Turning
Canonball, Reaper, Drake, both Tinkerbells and The Mole I state that
I'm going on a run after Roboplant Revolt, I add that the Mole will be
matrix cover and not physcially present. At this point Tony deploys a
Change of Plans and advises me the team feels they should go for
Mission Impossible instead. I lack an LotI or any other recourse, so
the first Challenge on MI is revealed and I set myself to deal with
it.

That's IMHO but what makes sense to me.

I'll pass this question on to the DLOH's and see what they have to
say.

-== Loki ==->>>>

once again Loki shows us the light... i have to agree with the Lokster on this
one. it is how we play it. and as the shining one said it only makes sense.

words from the puck.


(loki hows that for ass kissing....LOL..)


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Author: Non-HP-daddyjim (daddyjim@**********.COM) at HP-PaloAlto,mimegw2
Date: 8/21/98 9:50 AM


---Zachariah Hoffman <zhoffman@*.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote: >
> Can Change of Plans be played after runners are chosen, or does it have to >
be played before?

The way we've played is a player turns the chosen runners to make his
shadowrunning team and states his intention to run and on what Objective. This
for all intents and purposes in pretty much the same action.

So as an example: I've finished my legwork phase. Turning Canonball, Reaper,
Drake, both Tinkerbells and The Mole I state that I'm going on a run after
Roboplant Revolt, I add that the Mole will be matrix cover and not physcially
present. At this point Tony deploys a Change of Plans and advises me the team
feels they should go for Mission Impossible instead. I lack an LotI or any
other recourse, so the first Challenge on MI is revealed and I set myself to
deal with it.

That's IMHO but what makes sense to me.

I'll pass this question on to the DLOH's and see what they have to say.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Shadowrun RPG 3rd Edition Playtester. SRTCG Playtester.
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 15
From: Joshua Cho <YuHyunCho@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:57:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/21/98 2:06:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Keldon@********.NET writes:

> I think FASA intended on the card to be played anytime as they didn't
> want any timing issues like MTG but failed to realize how much ANY game can
> be picked apart. I like SRTCG because it's fun to play, and it's more Fun
to
> play it that way :) Come on, who doesn't like to see Goretusk, Stomper &
> Torgo rerouted from Cake Walk to Cleanse the Hive and get blindsided and
> told to go all or nothing. Now that's funny.

hmm.. SRTCG is new, and there's still a lot of timing issues to be solved, i
guess... anyway, here's a scenario....
I take an objective, and my opponent uses false mentor.
I use LotI and fail.

but the wording on the LotI says it counters a special just played. the
special just played was LotI, so if I play another LotI, would it counter the
false mentor or the first LotI?

jc
Message no. 16
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:06:43 -0700
---Joshua Cho <YuHyunCho@***.COM> wrote:
>
> hmm.. SRTCG is new, and there's still a lot of timing issues to be solved, i
> guess... anyway, here's a scenario....
> I take an objective, and my opponent uses false mentor.
> I use LotI and fail.
>
> but the wording on the LotI says it counters a special just played. the
> special just played was LotI, so if I play another LotI, would it counter the
> false mentor or the first LotI?

This issue has already been asked a while ago, and been resolved.

The 2nd LotI would be going against the first LotI. However, it needs to be
played before the die roll of the first LotI is made and resolved. (No sneaky
waiting to see if your opponent succeeded or failed before you risk that
Stinger.)

In you above example, once False Mentor is played and the the LotI slapped
down, False Mentor is no longer the special "just played" as that title now
falls to the LotI.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Shadowrun RPG 3rd Edition Playtester. SRTCG Playtester.
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 17
From: Joshua Cho <YuHyunCho@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:23:08 EDT
In a message dated 8/21/98 4:12:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
daddyjim@**********.COM writes:

> This issue has already been asked a while ago, and been resolved.
>
> The 2nd LotI would be going against the first LotI. However, it needs to be
> played before the die roll of the first LotI is made and resolved. (No
> sneaky
> waiting to see if your opponent succeeded or failed before you risk that
> Stinger.)
>
> In you above example, once False Mentor is played and the the LotI slapped
> down, False Mentor is no longer the special "just played" as that title
now
> falls to the LotI.
>

hmm.. so if I fail a roll on the LotI, I can't play another LotI on the false
mentor?

jc
Message no. 18
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:25:43 -0700
---Joshua Cho <YuHyunCho@***.COM> wrote:
>
> > This issue has already been asked a while ago, and been resolved.
> >
> > The 2nd LotI would be going against the first LotI. However, it needs to be
> > played before the die roll of the first LotI is made and resolved. (No
> > sneaky
> > waiting to see if your opponent succeeded or failed before you risk that
> > Stinger.)
> >
> > In you above example, once False Mentor is played and the the LotI slapped
> > down, False Mentor is no longer the special "just played" as that
title now
> > falls to the LotI.
> >
>
> hmm.. so if I fail a roll on the LotI, I can't play another LotI on the false
> mentor?

Nope. So far the only "Counter Spell" in SRTCG is a one chance 50/50 deal.

-== Loki ==-
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
SRCard FAQ: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/tcgfaq1.htm
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Shadowrun RPG 3rd Edition Playtester. SRTCG Playtester.
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

_________________________________________________________
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Message no. 19
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Change of Plans Question
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:33:37 -0700
Keldon Mor wrote:

<snip>

> Ah, if that is what the card says, they're wouldn't be an argument. But,
> the cards says to play when the Player announces a **Shadowrun** which of
> course isn't in the steps at all. And if precedence can be set with other
> cards like LoTI or Deja Vu which state that they are played on a Just played
> card or die roll Just made. It's doesn't say Just announced shadowrun so
> there may be some play in the timing there.

If it were done when the player announces the shadowrun, it'd actually
be at the beginning of the shadowrun, even before an Objective is chosen
- a proactive measure. It does specify the time it can be played,
however (not, "after a player announces a shadowrun," but, "when".)
And
by the RBT, the first step of that is choosing the Objective -- that's
when a player announces he's making a shadowrun.

> Either play the card anytime before the first challenge is faced or play
> the card Before the Objective is selected. "Hey, I'm doing a shadowrun, the
> objective will be Cake Walk, and I'm sending Glitz & Stomper". If the former
> is used, then the card will hardly ever be used. Why spend 4 nuyen when
> theres a 50/50 chance he's going to pick the one you want.

3 Nuyen; usually, it'll be pretty obvious which Objective a player is
gunning for (ie, that Impossible Mission with one Challenge). In a way,
CoP can be considered a cheaper WGC -- he encounters the first Challenge
(Dracoform - roar!) -- and then pulls out.

A careful player can also CoP a player onto an Objective it *looks* like
he might be able to take out, knowing there are other Stingers up his
sleeve. It's a strategy card, a subtle card, not
point-click-and-destroy.

> I think FASA intended on the card to be played anytime as they didn't
> want any timing issues like MTG but failed to realize how much ANY game can
> be picked apart. I like SRTCG because it's fun to play, and it's more Fun to
> play it that way :) Come on, who doesn't like to see Goretusk, Stomper &
> Torgo rerouted from Cake Walk to Cleanse the Hive and get blindsided and
> told to go all or nothing. Now that's funny.

In most cases, I'd rather see them get CoP'd the other way. Right into
the maw of the Dracoform (or other horrorible Challenge. I didn't just
say that.)

I'm not going to speak for what "FASA intended", even though I know Mike
pretty well. I'll agree with you -- it's fun to play that way, and I'm
not going to kick sand on anyone's picnic -- but, from a mechanical
viewpoint, that's not how it works.


- Matt

------------------------------------
The truth will set you free - but first it's gonna piss you off.
- Kanya Vashon McGhee

GridSec: SRCard / Freedonian Research Assistant
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm

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